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Atheist Alliance

Shdwj

Excuse me?
151
Posts
15
Years
  • Seen May 24, 2016
Okay. Let me apologize if you believe I am ranting. Like I said, I'm far from perfect, ha ha. You're going to have to forgive me if you think I'm trying to put you down. I'm not. But just like the members of this club, I want to get my point across: even if that view may be opposed to what everyone else thinks.

Also, I meant no offense whatsoever. If I created or even opened already closed wounds, I apologize. If I put you down or sounded proud or anything like that, then I messed up. But I just really, really wanted to get my point across: even if that meant laying down different verses and such. Is it so wrong to support my view with as much as I can? I'm sure anyone would want to the same. Again, I apologize if my words came out wrong, but I simply can't apologize for what I believe. I respect you.

You know that the reason why I believe the whole thing about hell to be true because the Bible says so. This is why I am confident. But I won't force you to believe anything. I wanted to share my views with you, not offend you, so please forgive me for any unintended blows.

EDIT: By the way, I didn't intend to make people afraid to post their opinions. It's good to share your views. I understand that sometimes people make it intimidating to voice your opinions, and if I did that to anyone, I apologize. I just wanted to share my views as well.
 
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Pppgggr

Cheese, for everyone!
198
Posts
12
Years
Okay. Let me apologize if you believe I am ranting. Like I said, I'm far from perfect, ha ha. You're going to have to forgive me if you think I'm trying to put you down. I'm not. But just like the members of this club, I want to get my point across: even if that view may be opposed to what everyone else thinks.

Also, I meant no offense whatsoever. If I created or even opened already closed wounds, I apologize. If I put you down or sounded proud or anything like that, then I messed up. But I just really, really wanted to get my point across: even if that meant laying down different verses and such. Is it so wrong to support my view with as much as I can? I'm sure anyone would want to the same. Again, I apologize if my words came out wrong, but I simply can't apologize for what I believe. I respect you.

You know that the reason why I believe the whole thing about hell to be true because the Bible says so. This is why I am confident. But I won't force you to believe anything. I wanted to share my views with you, not offend you, so please forgive me for any unintended blows.

EDIT: By the way, I didn't intend to make people afraid to post their opinions. It's good to share your views. I understand that sometimes people make it intimidating to voice your opinions, and if I did that to anyone, I apologize. I just wanted to share my views as well.
I'm not a member of the club, but when I saw your post, I just felt a need to reply. Your reasoning is that "The Bible Says So". What makes you so sure that if there is a God, the Bible is his direct word, or even that he influenced it at all? The book is At LEAST a thousand years old, and it has been translated from Latin again and again. The Bible you have today is a transelation of a transelation of a transelation. Even if this were not the case, how can you be sure that these authors were being sincere? On top of all this, the Bible was written down long after the death of the supposed Christ, so there is very little reason to believe that the records in the New Testiment are accurate. As for the Old Testiment, that's MUCH older and a great deal of it came from Judaism, A religion that came about in ancient times and existed at about the same time as Greek, Egyptian, and Persian Mythology, all religions that have been blatantly discarded. Who's to say that their texts are any more historically accurate?

ON TOP of all this, the Bible is FILLED with contradictions:

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/page/bible-contradictions

and Atrocities:
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/page/bible-atrocities

Why would you take any of your morality or beliefs from a book like that?


I'm not meaning to be disrespectful here, just giving my two cents.

Also, I'd like to join the club. The topics of Religion and Secularism greatly intruigue me.
 

Shdwj

Excuse me?
151
Posts
15
Years
  • Seen May 24, 2016
I'm not a member of the club, but when I saw your post, I just felt a need to reply. Your reasoning is that "The Bible Says So". What makes you so sure that if there is a God, the Bible is his direct word, or even that he influenced it at all? The book is At LEAST a thousand years old, and it has been translated from Latin again and again. The Bible you have today is a transelation of a transelation of a transelation. Even if this were not the case, how can you be sure that these authors were being sincere? On top of all this, the Bible was written down long after the death of the supposed Christ, so there is very little reason to believe that the records in the New Testiment are accurate. As for the Old Testiment, that's MUCH older and a great deal of it came from Judaism, A religion that came about in ancient times and existed at about the same time as Greek, Egyptian, and Persian Mythology, all religions that have been blatantly discarded. Who's to say that their texts are any more historically accurate?

ON TOP of all this, the Bible is FILLED with contradictions:

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/page/bible-contradictions

and Atrocities:
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/page/bible-atrocities

Why would you take any of your morality or beliefs from a book like that?


I'm not meaning to be disrespectful here, just giving my two cents.

Also, I'd like to join the club. The topics of Religion and Secularism greatly intruigue me.

Haha, no, no. It's cool that you wanna share your views. I took a look at some of the "contradictions" on that website. However, some of these seem to be very minor and can hardly be called legitimate contractions. Yes, it is true that the various books of the Bible were written by different people. Look at the "contradiction" where Satan takes Jesus to the temple, for example. The truth is, it doesn't change anything. Both authors wrote about the same thing, but we must remember that these men probably weren't worried so much about the order of places Satan brought Jesus. The order doesn't teach a person anything. The main goal of these authors was to get the message of Jesus across. What was important was the context: how Satan tried to tempt Jesus but failed to cause him to stumble. Plus, read the passage from Luke. He didn't use any words indicating time at all. Perhaps Matthew was more accurate with chronology, but that doesn't remove the context of passage. Also, we need to go back to the original language of the Bible. Sometimes translations brings about variances, those differences are so minor and unimportant that they do not change the ultimate message of the Bible. These cannot be viewed as contradictions that discredit the Bible.

As for the atrocities, yes, there are atrocities in the Bible. As for the sins that the people of God committed, the Bible is in no way supporting those actions. The Bible has stories. Stories have ups, but they also have downs. We must also consider the culture of the people of the time. Although some things were acceptable during a specific era or culture, the Bible does not support these things at all. However, if you read throughout the Bible, one will be able to discern what is right and what is wrong (there are many verses that are very direct about what is right and wrong). If you put the entire Bible together, it all points back to peoples' need of a savior, Jesus. As for God destroying nations, we must recall that those nations were wicked and enemies of his children, Israel. God is just, and he must punish sin. It's just that in the Old Testament his punishment was much more swift and direct. The New Testament is were the new covenant comes in, where the Gentile people are introduced into God's family. If you read the Bible, you will see that the things it does support are morality and righteousness.

And I know you're not trying to be disrespectful.
 

droomph

weeb
4,285
Posts
12
Years
And based on the fact you may think that the bible has been mistranslated, there's always the original Hebrew and Greek version, complete with particle translations!

I understand that you're all iffy about religion, and I respect that. (After all, this is the ATHEIST alliance :p) However, I wish that you guys didn't bash on us...not that anyone here is necessarily, but...like...YouTube. They bash on religion all the time, on every science-y video saying, "hey dumbass isn't it great to be able to explain things other than..."

Just my two cents. However I know for a fact that most atheist people are pretty nice. However, the few just ruin it for me, and I'm sure the few of us ruin Christianity(or any religion, while we're at it) for you too. And I'm sorry, don't listen to them :)
 

Barrels

The Fresh Prince of Kanto
82
Posts
12
Years
Ah, intelligent discussion! *rubs hands* I love it. Let's go!

1) What is the hypocritical part? I don't understand what you're trying to say...
Well, stooping to the level of the sinner by hurting them makes God as bad, if not worse, than they are. To quote Amy Pond: 'we have to be better than him, Doctor'.
2) I have never said to blindly follow orders. I have only said that faith is the one salvation. In fact, you should never blindly follow orders, because that clouds you from the truth. What if someone misguides you?
Precisely my point! What if the translators of the Bible screwed up? What if a particular word doesn't mean what you think it means? Is your interpretation of the Bible at five years old the same as it is at fifty? What if God himself is malevolent? It's hardly sensible to argue that 'God is not malevolent because God says so.'
3) It's not the failure to believe - God will show Himself to you when it's time, in the right form. It's the pride that blinds you that is so wrong.
But it conflicts completely with rationality – and thus science – to stick to old beliefs when evidence proves you wrong. If God reveals himself to me, I'm not going to shut my eyes and stick my fingers in my ears! To quote Tim Minchin:
'Science adjusts its beliefs based on what's observed
Faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved.
If you show me
That, say, homeopathy works,
Then I will change my mind
I'll spin on a ****ing dime
I'll be embarrassed as hell,
But I will run through the streets yelling
It's a miracle! Take physics and bin it!'
4) I never contradicted myself - I merely said that it's up to Him, rather than you, or any worldly authority.
That's not what I was arguing, though! It is absolutely up to God and not me to decide who gets what in his Kingdom. What I took issue with was the illogical assertion that everyone can be equal while some people have more than others! (I've just realised that this was the entire point of Animal Farm. Orwell sums it up far better than I ever could:
'All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.')
5) I wouldn't feel for them, because they were stuck up in refusing God's gift for so long. He doesn't require anything from you, and he is in fact, actively giving you his gift. If you don't accept it, you don't deserve a place in heaven. I can't stress this point enough. All you need to be is to submit to him. Obtaining His gift is the easy path out (since he has taken your place and done the hard work), and yet it is the best path to take.
Stuck-up? Tragic, I'd say. And he does require things from me: my time every Sunday, my love, the way I choose to live my life. Having given me freedom, he should know that I may not want to hand it straight back in at the desk again.
…Also, you answered a different question! I do appreciate the time spent on the answer, but in essence all I wanted was a yes or no. Again, do you claim to speak for everyone deserving of a place in Heaven?
6) The person above me has answered that.
Nope, Shdwg answered number 1) – the one relating to hypocrisy. (No one's actually yet tackled 6!) I'll just quote it again, since I think you must have misread – if I'm wrong and the problem was that you didn't understand my argument, just let me know and I'll happily reword it! :)
You didn't answer my question: 'how could anyone possibly be happy in heaven knowing the overwhelming pain and suffering happening beneath them?'

OK, so I'm assuming you're a lovely person who feels empathy for others. My point is that unless that empathy is stripped out, you cannot be happy while imagining the infinite pain and suffering underneath you. Empathy is the ability to understand the feelings of another - and imagining that infinite pain isn't going to be pleasant by definition (since pain is unpleasant). So we have ourselves another conundrum:

If you have the capacity for empathy, you can't be happy in Heaven. It follows that the version of you that eventually makes it there is missing some of its original parts - I would argue the parts that are vital to your sense of self. So whatever warped resultant entity is strolling around with the angels, it's not you. Not you as you could recognise yourself. That, to me, is a terrifying thought - and it's why Heaven holds no appeal for me. It isn't me who's going there, after all. Perhaps it looks like me - perhaps it sounds the same. But it is simply a bright machine.

--

'Saying "God is merciful" and then agreeing with the premise that he would not give you a chance to repent after death, instead judging you on your life regardless of your repentance after death is a massive contradiction.'
Far conciser than I managed. ;) I agree wholeheartedly with this statement: again, we have to bend the common definition of mercy so far it snaps.

--

'Also, I understand that the thought of a loved one being in hell can certainly be scary and quite hurtful.'
Yes, scary. Yes, hurtful. Also absolutely, abhorrently wrong.

'Justice seeks to reward the good and punish the wicked. The former is wicked while the latter is righteous.'

But this entirely conflicts with your statement: 'God does not follow a different set of morals: morality is ultimate and does not change with time'. If there are universal moral concepts – i.e. shoving someone in an oven is wrong – it doesn't matter who breaches them. If I push someone into my oven and turn the gas up all the way – and don't repent – I'm going to Hell. If a demon then shoves me into his oven and turns the gas up even higher on God's orders, that's justice. Unfortunately, it's also hypocrisy.

'forced love'
'coerced, compulsory love'
We're using the same example! Here's the key point, at least as I see it - the love IS forced, IS compulsory, because the alternative is eternal torture. That isn't a choice! That's not just a rock and a hard place but a cloud and a sulphur pit. As Shining Raichu said, who chooses Hell over God secure in the knowledge that both exist? Either someone severely mentally ill (who in any case is not responsible for their actions) or the most courageous and moral of all of us. Someone prepared to dispute the broken morality preached in the Bible. Someone who does not believe in torture under any circumstances… but I'll get to that.

Bottom line: I would have absolutely no problem with a God who did not hurt those who do not 'love' him. But since he promises to do so… how is this Father any different to the domestic abuser who punches his children because they no longer worship the ground he walks on? How is that reconcilable with any definition of morality as we know it?

'The laws in the Bible were created by him because he knows what is right because, as we mentioned before, he is the only all-powerful, omniscient being.'

This is circular - as you know, I think, but see no problem with. 'God knows what is right because he knows what is right (in other words, he's omniscient and knows everything).' And, I mean, that's fine - far be it from me to tell people what they can and can't believe. I certainly wouldn't torture those who hold a different worldview. But if you're prepared to accept circular logic – broken logic - I literally cannot argue with you because there's no hope of either of us being convinced. We're just spinning our wheels. It's exactly the same as me saying, 'a cat is a cat' and you saying 'a cat is a dog' and just having to agree to disagree because we don't share logic as a means to reaching a conclusion.

'He did die for you, after all.'
Mmm. Yeah. But he's not in eternal Hell, is he? God has never inflicted eternal punishment on himself (to the best of my knowledge – again, correct me if my scripture is rusty). If God just killed me outright, that would be far more merciful than continuing to roast me even after I am dead!

'Now, on God's righteousness and judgment. Consider a judge. What does a judge do? He punishes evil and rewards good. He wouldn't be a good judge if he didn't do that. Imagine further if a loved one of his was caught in the act of murder. The judge wouldn't want to send him to prison, but because justice and righteousness must be upheld, he must give him his sentence. It doesn't make the judge love his friend any less, but the judge understands what is right and knows he must carry out justice in the name of righteousness--even if it brings him much sorrow to do so.'
This is a wonderful example - thank you for introducing it. And I do agree that acting morally sometimes requires acting in the world's best interest rather than the interests of those you love.

But only to the most minimal extent possible. And this is where I cannot comprehend the Christian mindset. To extend your analogy, the judge sentences his child to prison. Prison. Not death. Certainly not everlasting torment. To do so would be ridiculously disproportionate and unfair – it would be unjust. To make the argument that failing to believe in something for which there is no reasonable basis – i.e. Superman – deserves eternal torture directly and absolutely conflicts with morality as I see it. Although your point is relevant and well-made, to me, it still doesn't answer the question.

…Perhaps rather than continuing to miss one another, we should agree to stand by certain statements. (If I am unintentionally straw-manning, please do correct me!)
1) I believe that no crime is so great as to deserve everlasting torture. This is because I believe in fairness, in justice – I believe that no crime deserves disproportionate retribution. (Or indeed proportionate – Christians no longer believe in 'an eye for an eye', am I correct? We have to be better than the sinners. We can't sin alongside them by punishing them. If murder is wrong, murdering the murderer – whether you're God or human - is just as wrong. One follows from the other entirely logically.) Thus Hell is unjust.
2) You believe that failing to believe in God deserves everlasting torture. Thus Hell is just.

If we agree to stand by these statements, it's self-evident that our definitions of morality miss each other completely. Thus it's futile to argue over who is right – because we don't agree what 'right' even is!

--

'As a Christian I do hope that he isn't.'
But but but that's contradictory! You've spent the last few replies stringently denying that you'd feel empathy for those in Hell: 'I would not sympathize with them, as this is God's choice.' You can't hope he's not in Hell without sympathising with his predicament if he is. Wouldn't a true Christian say that 'if he sinned and never repented, I hope he is in Hell – because I support God's decision'?

--

'And on that note, is it not possible that God is testing you on this point? Would he want you to feel empathy regardless of his actions and be displeased that you don't?'
Absolutely. I've refrained from explicitly making this argument so far just because it's so divisive, but I believe that the most moral man of all is the one who looks at God's 'justice' and finds it abhorrent. And thus faces Hell, not because he is unafraid or arrogant, but because he will do what he believes to be right at all costs. A truly moral God, who only wrote the Bible as a test, would thus let him into Heaven!

'He wants to come into your life and be, not only your God, but your friend.'
I don't want him in my life. I don't want a friend who threatens me. I don't want to have to sit by as my children burn, screaming, in Hell on his orders and pretend I'm okay about that. Friendship is reciprocal - and I sure wouldn't throw his kids into a furnace! I couldn't live with myself if I did. I wouldn't be myself if I did (see 6).

'The truth is that none of us, Christian or non-Christian, deserves a place in heaven.'
So why create us in the first place, if we're all so pathetic? Why create a species you're going to condemn to eternal torture if they stick to their factory-default setting? Isn't that horribly cruel?

'Christians aren't any better than non-Christians. I want to make that point clear.'
You have, and I thank you for doing so. Too often discussions are derailed by claims of superiority. (But if no one's better than anyone else, why do you go to Heaven and we go to Hell? Surely accepting God is a virtue in itself - and that'd throw the scales way out of order.)

'Science actually proves the existence of the living God. Romans 1:20 states "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse." Think about the fact that the earth is just the right position away from the sun. If it were only a few centimeters closer to the sun, the atmosphere on earth would be too hot for life to exist. If it were any farther away from the sun, it would be too cold. Consider the miracle of the human eye! The complexity of how this body part works is beyond us! We can't imitate the way the eye focuses light, not even with the most complicated cameras and other technology that we have today. Think about just how stable the electrons and protons within an atom are!'
Intelligent design is not science. Here: 'intelligent design has been widely criticised for its failure to state what mechanism drives it, its lack of falsifiability, and many other problems that leave it lacking as a scientific theory' [source: RationalWiki]. Under the current definition of science, it's not even a theory! It can't be proved or disproved.
Also…
'We can't imitate the way the eye focuses light, not even with the most complicated cameras and other technology that we have today.'
And in ten million years? Say we all have far superior cybernetic implants. Does the argument then collapse?
'Consider the miracle of the human eye!'
OK. Assume you're right and it is a miracle. How on earth does this prove that it was performed by the Christian God? 'Possible candidates for the role of designer include: the God of Christianity; an angel--fallen or not; Plato's demi-urge; some mystical new age force; space aliens from Alpha Centauri; time travelers; or some utterly unknown intelligent being' - Michael Behe.
'Think about the fact that the earth is just the right position away from the sun. If it were only a few centimeters closer to the sun, the atmosphere on earth would be too hot for life to exist. If it were any farther away from the sun, it would be too cold.'
Yes! Yes, it is extremely unlikely. Incredibly unlikely. I wholeheartedly agree with you! But the solution to the problem of complexity is most definitely not to posit a creator who would by definition have to be even more complex! If your argument is, 'the eye is far too complex to be anything but an intelligent creation,' the exact same logic applies in the next step! God is way more complex than the eye, right? So: 'God is far too complex to be anything but an intelligent creation.' By your own chain of logic, God himself was created by an intelligent designer!

'Oh, how easy it would be for God to simply end it all with the snap of a finger; how easy it would be for him to say the word and cause all atoms on earth to lose that stability, or cause earth to shift in the direction of the sun, or simply crush all under his heel! After all, we did spit in his face with our sins. Why shouldn't he destroy all of man kind? Can't he simply start over? But no. He doesn't do that. Regardless of how people over the years have disregarded and rejected God, he doesn't do it. Now do you understand the magnitude of his patience?'
No! Because the fact that someone ignores and rejects you does not mean you are justified in murdering them! Worse, torture them for all eternity! If we want freedom, we have to accept that others are entitled to it too. So while it may not be, for example, very pleasant to be ignored and rejected, that is someone's free decision and to condemn it takes away your own right to ignore and reject people. God is hypocritical in this respect! He rejects people straight into Hell for the sin of rejecting him. 'The practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform' – this is the definition of hypocrisy!

Also:
'Can't he simply start over?'
No, because that implies that he made a mistake to begin with. And he's perfect, so he couldn't have done.

'Now let me ask you, now: what's keeping you from accepting his sacrifice today?'
The fact that it would be a betrayal of everything I believe in. Of everything I love – my family, my friends, the decent people all over the world I will never meet. I cannot and will not accept that these people deserve to be burned alive for all eternity for not believing in God. I will not sit quietly in Heaven as they scream below me. This is my moral stand.

…Whoo. Okay. Deep breaths.

Again, sincerely, thank you for replying and arguing so politely. And please don't take this as a personal attack – believe it or not, I'm really enjoying this discussion and would like nothing better than for it to continue! (I'm especially interested in your perspective on the sixth point I put to droomph – 'How can the entity in Heaven be, in any meaningful sense, the same as the entity on Earth and thus provide some sort of consistency (which is required if salvation/punishment are to be justified) if it is missing vital parts of the original persona?')

EDIT: Reading this back, I feel I ought to make one thing clear - I'm really not trying to hold myself up as this supremely moral entity who's courageous enough to face Hell for my beliefs. I mean, I don't actually believe in God, so any moral stand I take is hypothetical at best - it's all 'what would I do if I was certain that God, Heaven and Hell existed', you know? Drop me in front of an eternity of flames and torture and who knows how I'll react. Perhaps I'll sacrifice my integrity to get into Heaven. If I'm being brutally honest with myself, I don't think I'm anywhere near brave enough to face punishment like that. I'm no Gandhi, no Luther King. (Obviously.)

The key point here is that it wouldn't be honest of me to repent in that scenario - I'd be abandoning my morality. And that's the problem. To me, it doesn't matter that I couldn't lead by example. The fact that I, personally, don't have the courage to face down Hell doesn't make Hell itself any less wrong.
 
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Shdwj

Excuse me?
151
Posts
15
Years
  • Seen May 24, 2016
Okay, I understand where this is going. Forgive me, but I am stepping out of this conversation. I have already said that God has made a way out for all of us, but all of you keep insisting he does not have any love to offer us. As I have stated many times before, believing that he does love us requires faith. And with that, I will end my discussion here because it looks like this conversation may end up looping itself.

However, I do thank you for reading our posts, and I thank you for being kind enough to share you views as well. :)

Oh, but before I go. That whole thing about intelligent design? My point was that I simply cannot come to the conclusion that we were made by chance. I believe that there is a creator and that he has done a lot to show his love for you and me.
 

Pppgggr

Cheese, for everyone!
198
Posts
12
Years
And based on the fact you may think that the bible has been mistranslated, there's always the original Hebrew and Greek version, complete with particle translations!

I understand that you're all iffy about religion, and I respect that. (After all, this is the ATHEIST alliance :p) However, I wish that you guys didn't bash on us...not that anyone here is necessarily, but...like...YouTube. They bash on religion all the time, on every science-y video saying, "hey dumbass isn't it great to be able to explain things other than..."

Just my two cents. However I know for a fact that most atheist people are pretty nice. However, the few just ruin it for me, and I'm sure the few of us ruin Christianity(or any religion, while we're at it) for you too. And I'm sorry, don't listen to them :)

"Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions."
-Thomas Jefferson

Though we find it unintelligable, we are not attacking most Christians. The issue we have with Christians and other religions, is in some of the legislation they try to pass, The ways some denominations are hateful of Atheists, And how most have at the very least a small hatred of homosexuals.

We have people like the Westboro Baptist's church protesting at funerals and weddings with signs saying "GOD HATES ****" in relation to homosexuals, or "AMERICA IS DOOMED, AMERICA IS GOING TO HELL." or teaching their children that everyone who's not a Christian is going straight to Hell, and to be as hateful as possible. In the middle east, we have Islam, where people are willing to burn down Embassies and murder Ambassadors over Cartoons of Muhammad, such as the Dutch ones from the earlier two thousands, or movies attacking him like the "Innocence of Muslims" that was released this year. We have organizations like Al Qaeda willing to rise up and slaughter with their religion as an excuse.

In America, especially along the Bible Belt, the term "Atheist" is cursed. In some places in the US, you can lose your Job simply for using the term. In schools, Atheist Children(Including myself) have, in many cases, been bullied and belittled by their peers.

On top of all of this, we have people like Texan Governer Rick Perry who want to break down the barriers between church and state and run our government solely upon religious ideaolgy, taking no heed to the fact that our country contains more than just Christians.

As well as worrying about the barrier between church and state, we have to worry about the position of Evolution in schools. There are MANY religious organizations that want to remove the idea of Evolution, with is based in facts and science, with the 6,000 Year old Earth theory as well as Creationism.

We also have organizations such as the Flat-Earth society who, in the name of religion, shun everything that science has to offer if it doesn't wholly agree with what's in the bible.



It's not just its followers that plague us, but the idea of the Christian God as well.

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"


-Epicurus.

Even if we disregard this quote and assume the Christian God is omneiscent and omnipotent, then the man is playing with our lives. Because he's all-seeing, he knows whether or not we will be "Saved" and whether we will go to Heaven or Hell LONG before he even creates us, and thus the Test of life is unnecessary and he's essentially creating people just for them to be tossed into hell. Also, if he's all-seeing, then that completely destroys the idea that we have free will. If he can see what's going to happen in the future before it even occurs, then we only have the illusion of free will. Our lives will take the path that he sees.

On top of that, the God of the bible allows slavery (EXODUS 21:20-21), condemns homosexuality yet condones rape (GENESIS 19:4-9), and condemns simple mistakes (2 SAMUEL 6:6-7 ). Oh, and let's not forget how Jesus said that according to Old Testiment Law, Children who curse their parents must be slaughtered (MARK 7:7-10). These are just a few instances of your God's "Benevolent Justice"

Use http://www.biblegateway.com/ or a bible beside you to check the sections of the Bible I had listed as proof.

"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully."


― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion


This quote rings true as you attempt to read the Bible from its very beginning, to its very end.

All of these things combined are why a great deal of us(Though not all) are completely and utterly against religion.
 

F1refly

Stuff and things
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Oh how ironic that as I type this there is an ad for a Christian Website on the page.
First of all, I consider myself quite tolerant of Religions. Muslim, Islam, Judaism, Rastafarianism and even Pastafarianism. I respect Catholics, and even respect the pope.

Many years ago I was christian. I was about 9 years old. I had just started learning about world history and was a big dinosaur fan. Then I learned about the fact that Dinosaurs were not mentioned in the bible, nor how long ago they lived. My belief started to falter, then ultimately shattered. I became a pure atheist, one who respects most religions, and believes that if any religion is the true one, it will probably be something like the Mayans or Egyptians.

I see many contradiction with the Bible. The bible is actually built up of Letters by various people, sent to the original author of the first bible. He/She then chose quotes from the letters to include in the book. This is one thing that sticks out in my mind.
Secondly, Jesus possibly had other Brothers like him, and might possibly have been married. Even small things like this can turn religion on it's head, yet it is not widely known because of the panic it might cause.

Then there are other things I have problems with:

Hate against Gay People - Let them do what they want, God apparently loves everyone, and if he made everyone, then why are they gay if he made them?

Women aren't supposed to wear Pants/Trousers/Whatever - Why? So she can be "used" by the husband more easily?

It's nice to have a decent Debate about religion. I'm willing to hear other peoples views, but if I don't agree with them, you'll know.

P.S Please don't read the above as being nasty/hateful/spiteful/blah blah as when I get passionate about something, my writing sounds/looks like it's meant to be nasty. Please take what I say above as a proper and decent argument
 

Phantom1

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I'd like to join. If you had to put a label on me, I'd consider myself an atheist. :)

However, my philosophy follows much of what the intellectual Sam Harris advocates. So long as we call ourselves atheists, people will associate that with negative connotations, or categorize us as simply "those who don't think there is a deity." Rather, if we call ourselves advocates of logic and reason, it becomes very hard to argue against us. Not many people are going to bite the bullet and say that they don't support those.


Just wanna pop in and say, yay! Another Sam Harris-ian in the house!
 

droomph

weeb
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SR, please take me off the list. You all have proven that you will not tolerate Christians here, so I'm gonna not even try to get you to respect my view.

You find it unintelligible? How insulting! I may believe in what could be an imaginary man, but that doesn't mean I'm a retard!

With that, I see the atheists here on PC (or the Internet, for that matter) won't tolerate religion, and justly so.

I'm sorry to have even ever bothered you, and I'm sorry that I ever bothered to try to explain myself and my religion.
 

AChipOffTheOldBrock

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Sign me up, why not.

I'm an optomistic agnostic you might say? I dont know if there is a term for my belief. I was raised a baptist and while I dont believe in a lot of what the bible says I think theres a god, because why not? I pray sometimes and I believe in an afterlife. I dont really believe in the classic Heaven/Hell but I think that there is some sort of afterlife other than it all just goes black and your done.

What are your opinions on subjects such as same-sex marriage, abortion, the death penalty, and so on? Why?

Gay Marriage: Im against it. Dont really have a good reason though. I think if somebody wants to be gay than whatever. I dont care if they want to have a domestic partnership I just dont want them to call it marriage, if that makes sense.

Abortion: Im pro-abortion.(God, that sounds awful.) I think if someone wants to get an abortion more power to em'. The world is already overpopulated and I hate most people. I dont want more of them. A lot of kids are born into really terrible situations because its "wrong" for their parents to get abortions.

Death Penalty: Im not really for or against it.
 
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Sign me up. Being an atheist in one of the least religious countries in the world (The Netherlands), it's not that hard for me being an atheist. Especially in the environment I currently live in (university) where most people are not religious.

What are your opinions on subjects such as same-sex marriage, abortion, the death penalty, and so on? Why?

Let gay people marry! For god sake (see what I did there?), what the hell does it matter to you if two gay people get married. How does the fact that they sign a paper make your marriage seem more insignificant or more terrible? How does it affect your life? Kinda proud that my country was the first country in the world to legalize gay marriage (2001). If gay people want to be as miserable as the rest of the married couples, let them ;).

Abortion is legal in my country and rightly so. Overpopulation is becoming a bigger problem every day, so that's already one reason. Second, you can have an abortion untill an x amount of weeks. Before that time, the being in your body isn't sentient yet, so it's not really murdering a living being. A fly for example is more 'living' than that little pile of cells. Don't really care if it's being removed, although I do think people should not think too lightly of it. You are destroying something that eventually will be a living being. So I do think people should be heavily consulted on abortions by their doctor or something.

Death penalty: not a fan. I do get the sentiment in certain cases, but I'd rather have someone locked up for life in a little cell, than have the easy way by just ending their lives, without dealing with the consequences. Let them figure out what they did and why they need to be punished. Plus, it has happened that decades later, they found out that the guy who they killed, didn't actually commit the crime he was killed for. Hard to restore that. Easier when he is locked up.

Why are your beliefs the way they are?
My parents raised me without any religious background. They did teach me to figure it all out myself, without any pressure. In my teens, I decided that religion to me was nothing more than a disturbing fairy tale with too many ****** rules that just seemed absurd to me.

Do you believe in any form of life after death?
I like to think there is something, but I don't actually think there is. If there is, I do hope God won't be a prick about me not believing, but judges me on the way I lived my life. But even if there is anything after death, I don't think it will be the classical Heaven/Hell like the current religions want us to believe, though.

Do you believe in aliens?
Yes. But I don't think we will discover them untill we invent faster than light travel. The universe is immense, I don't think we are the only planet with intelligent live.

Does your family and friends know about your faith? If no, why not?
Most people do. Whether you like the phenomenon or not, religion is a very interesting subject to talk about. And being an atheist in my country is not exactly very strange, so no reason to hide it.

Do you think separation of church and state is different from freedom of religion?
If church and state are not seperated, it's hard to have freedom of religion if your religion is not the state's. Seperation is good. It makes sure that people will always have their own freedom of religion, without the state intervening. Freedom of and from religion is good too. I don't get why people don't understand that.

If God does exist, what do you think it would be like?
I really have no clue. I like to think he is a wise old man, but that seems unlikely. If he exists, I'm guessing he is more like an all-powerful entity. Present, but not really visible.

What are your family's general religious beliefs?
My mother is agnostic, my father is atheist, my brothers are both atheist too. I have an aunt and uncle who are religious (Christians), but most of my family members are not really religious. Most are atheists/agnostics.
 

Phantom1

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Gay Marriage: Im against it. Dont really have a good reason though. I think if somebody wants to be gay than whatever. I dont care if they want to have a domestic partnership I just dont want them to call it marriage, if that makes sense.

Welcome to the group!

It makes sense. Marriage in and of itself is a religious institution. I think it's more about getting equal rights than anything. Any religion has the right to say they won't marry a same sex couple, but when it comes to the government they should still be seen as equals. Separation of Church and State.
 

AChipOffTheOldBrock

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Thanks.

And I also dont believe very strongly in science which Im sure doesnt really fly around here. And i dont believe in Outer Space. Weird, right? Thats the kind of **** you can only tell people anonymously over the internet haha.
 
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Marriage in and of itself is a religious institution.

Marriage is not a religious institution. It's a social union and a state-regulated legal contract. People were marrying before Christianity was around.

Thanks.

And I also dont believe very strongly in science which Im sure most of you do. And i dont believe in Outer Space. Weird, right? Thats the kind of **** you can only tell people anonymously over the internet haha.

Science isn't something you believe in or don't believe in. It's just something you understand.

And I don't understand how you can say you don't "believe" in outer space. Look up at the sky tonight, and you'll see space. That's evidence.
 

AChipOffTheOldBrock

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And I don't understand how you can say you don't "believe" in outer space. Look up at the sky tonight, and you'll see space. That's evidence.

I look up at night and I see white dots, black sky, and a big white circle or part of it. I dont see planets or other galaxies or black holes or an atmosphere or anything else. And when I say I dont believe in science I mean I dont accept something just because people say its scientifically proven. Probably could have worded that better sorry.
 

Shining Raichu

Expect me like you expect Jesus.
8,959
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Welcome to all our new members :D - and Scruffington I'm so sorry, I must have missed your joining post altogether among all the stuff that's been going on lately haha.

There's a lot of stuff I want to reply to and I will get to that, but I'm running out the door the second I finish this post, so I'll just quickly deal with the two things I find most pressing for now.

droomph said:
SR, please take me off the list. You all have proven that you will not tolerate Christians here, so I'm gonna not even try to get you to respect my view.

You find it unintelligible? How insulting! I may believe in what could be an imaginary man, but that doesn't mean I'm a retard!

With that, I see the atheists here on PC (or the Internet, for that matter) won't tolerate religion, and justly so.

I'm sorry to have even ever bothered you, and I'm sorry that I ever bothered to try to explain myself and my religion.

droomphy, please calm your farm. Of course we find religious arguments unintelligible. We're atheists. If we didn't find religious arguments unintelligible, we wouldn't be atheists. If a word as simple as that will offend you then it's probably for the best that you don't come here and upset yourself, but you will always be welcome if you change your mind.

AChipOffTheOldBrock said:
Gay Marriage: Im against it. Dont really have a good reason though. I think if somebody wants to be gay than whatever. I dont care if they want to have a domestic partnership I just dont want them to call it marriage, if that makes sense.

No, it doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Firstly, I feel the need to point out for what must be the five thousandth time, nobody ever wanted to be gay. Nobody chose it for themselves. Secondly, if you're going to have an "anti" stance on anything you have to have a reason for it. Because if you don't have a reason to be anti-something, then you have no right or cause to be anti-something. Simply stating "I don't really have a good reason" isn't really good enough when it's an issue that affects the lives of other people.
 

Phantom1

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Marriage is not a religious institution. It's a social union and a state-regulated legal contract.

Not exactly.

People were marrying before Christianity was around.

Not really. There was a concept the social practice of bonding two people together to form unions, either political, social, or religious. But the word marriage endears it as a Sacrement, making it purely religious.

English fails in that sense.
 

Alice

(>^.(>0.0)>
3,077
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15
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Well thats your opinion I guess. I reserve my right to discriminate against homosexuals for no reason at all other than disgust.
You may have the right to feel that way, but you don't have the right to discriminate on pokecommunity. There are many of them here, and especially in this club, so I would recommend holding back your thoughts on that subject.
I look up at night and I see white dots, black sky, and a big white circle or part of it. I dont see planets or other galaxies or black holes or an atmosphere or anything else. And when I say I dont believe in science I mean I dont accept something just because people say its scientifically proven. Probably could have worded that better sorry.
Buy a telescope?
 

droomph

weeb
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droomphy, please calm your farm. Of course we find religious arguments unintelligible. We're atheists. If we didn't find religious arguments unintelligible, we wouldn't be atheists. If a word as simple as that will offend you then it's probably for the best that you don't come here and upset yourself, but you will always be welcome if you change your mind.

I don't mind that you find me unintelligible at all - I understand. I know why you're atheist. However, you all make me feel unwelcome just for being Christian. I try to explain it to you, and rather than saying "no, I don't understand so please stop" (which I could understand!) you drag me on and on, and I feel like you all don't respect me.

I know you're trying to have a respectful conversation, but I honestly find some of the things you say insulting. And when you said "I think the general religious consensus would disagree", I felt like you weren't listening to me at all, but rather kicking me at everything that goes against your beliefs, but rarely ever mentioning what you do agree with.

I don't know what it is, but ever since I posted my thoughts on religion, or even mentioning that I'm Christian, I have felt unwelcome.

That's what I meant.

And I understand, that none of you particularly understand religion. But you should at least try - I thought the point of atheism was to create a better world than one based on arbritrary rules.
 
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