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Atheist Alliance

HarrisonH

I doubt Pokemon will be a hit
174
Posts
15
Years
  • Age 31
  • Seen Feb 1, 2013
I have no idea what spurred the previous post, but no matter.

Fun fact: According to the most recent Pew survey, nearly a third of people under the age of 30 report "no religious affiliation". Additionally, protestants are now less than half of the total population in America.

This is pretty amazing news. This survey shows the continuing trend of religious percentages dropping, while nonreligious percentage grows.

We'll have a secular society yet, and finally catch up to most of Europe in that regard.
 
22
Posts
11
Years
I'd like to join. If you had to put a label on me, I'd consider myself an atheist. :)

However, my philosophy follows much of what the intellectual Sam Harris advocates. So long as we call ourselves atheists, people will associate that with negative connotations, or categorize us as simply "those who don't think there is a deity." Rather, if we call ourselves advocates of logic and reason, it becomes very hard to argue against us. Not many people are going to bite the bullet and say that they don't support those.
 

Barrels

The Fresh Prince of Kanto
82
Posts
12
Years
Right, time to leap back into the discussion! :D First, the stuff I agree with:
you can't discount me for being a dumbass just because I'm fifteen
Absolutely. While it is statistically more likely that you'll make mistakes due to inexperience/immaturity - so we might be justified in saying, for example, that the world is better off being run by thirty-year-olds than thirteen-year-olds - what should be examined in all cases are the arguments you're putting forward. Are they valid? Are the premises true? If so, your argument is just as sound as any other, and to claim otherwise is to commit the ad hominem fallacy.

And now the stuff I don't:
For whoever doesn't is a fool.
Sounds rather like Pascal to me. :P Which, of course, was wonderfully summed up by the folks over at RationalWiki like this:
Pascal's wager: Believing in and searching for Kryptonite on the off chance that Superman exists and wants to kill you.
--
If one uses his name to hurt, he will hurt in return. Whether it be in this life or the afterlife, he will make sure it is the most painful thing you've felt.
Eh? God has a separate morality to us? That's news to me - isn't he supposed to turn the other cheek? If God is allowed to retaliate, to be vengeful, then he does have a different moral code to us. And, because he is God, that code must be superior. So shouldn't we be following that instead?

God loves everyone, and God cares for everyone.
If one uses his name unnecessarily, he will kill you. Whether it be in this life or the afterlife, he will make sure you have the most anguished death of your life.

I just. No. You don't kill the ones you love out of anger. Whatever you're feeling as you condemn them to screaming, burning eternity, it sure isn't love (and before anyone offers 'regret', I'd like to point out that God is perfect and doesn't make mistakes. So can't regret). If the deepest kind of love is unconditional - which, okay, that's debatable, but a love that can be broken under specific circumstances is by definition not as strong as one that endures through anything - then that rather implies forgiveness, does it not? I'd rather know a God who told me that whatever I did, at the end of the day he'd still love me than one that said, 'whoa, whoa, sure, do what you want, but ONLY UP TO THIS POINT AND NO FURTHER - screw up majorly enough and I'm going to torture you in unspeakable ways forever.' How on earth is coerced, compulsory love worthy of the name? How is a love born out of fear healthy or natural? These are the questions we must have answers to before accepting the truth of your position: if we disagree fundamentally on what love amounts to, then our arguments miss each other entirely.

tl;dr: to reconcile the ideas of a God who loves infinitely and a God who punishes infinitely, you have to bend the concept of love so far over backwards it snaps. You can call the taped-up broken pieces love, if you want to. But - in my humble view - it's unworthy of the name.

But if one lets him carry out his actions through you, he will pay you back ten times as much as you lost, and ten times as much as you ever have earned. Whether it be in this life or the afterlife, whether it seems like a blessing or a curse, mentally or physically, he will make sure you have an abundance of wealth.

Eh? I thought everyone was equal in heaven. You're telling me there's some formula that decides who gets more and who gets less? Surely that leads to discontent and jealousy. Can't we all just have the same - enough to keep us happy, no more, no less - for once?

If one uses his name to keep a man or woman from the truth, he will certainly let you die in the afterlife.
If only. The cruellest part of the Christian doctrine is that God doesn't just kill you and have done with it. No, instead you're hurled into insufferable torture for eternity.

Think about that. Eternity. Can we even conceive of such a state as finite beings? Can we fully understand the horror of such a fate? And how could anyone possibly be happy in heaven knowing the overwhelming pain and suffering happening beneath them?

Chances are you'll know someone undergoing that torture. Could you live with yourself if you went about your afterlife never thinking of them, never sympathising, never pleading with God to reverse their fate? What if it was your brother? Your wife? Your child?

Wouldn't the mothers who'd lost their children want more than anything to be with them, even if the pain was unimaginable? Anything but sit helplessly on their cloud, knowing how much their baby boy or girl was hurting. That, to me, sounds like Hell. An insidious, emotional Hell, with none of the stereotypical fire and flames, none of the brimstone, the cackling demons - and somehow all the worse for that.

Trapped upstairs while your child burns beneath you - with no hope of escape in either case. I genuinely shudder to think of it.
 

Altix

Son of a Snivy and a Zoroark
71
Posts
11
Years
Oh my god(lulz) everyone is this thread types so much. I feel lazy here XD. I think Wicca is kinda awesome. I want to buy the book Isis Unveiled Volume two: Theology. It is by this crazy smart Russian lady from 1877. Her name is H.P. Blavatsky. I also want to read the first volume.

Abortion: This to me is Woman's right. I think it is that simple. It think that the situation with the 5 year old daughter is insane, If the mother had the child, given she loves her, She would donate her organ. At that point the girl has not been handed ove to a foster home.

Death penalty: I am still a bit indecisive on this...I mean....I don't know yet.

One thing I really hate is when a ignorant adult assumes that they are better than me based on age. I slap them with my knowledge. One fun little tale: My "Dad", younger brother, and I were going to get Ice cream. My little brother eats wheat free, and my "Dad" is like "What here do you have that is wheat free?", then Ice creamitory man is all like "Oh, well almost all of our stuff has whey or wheat in it so you can only order off the dairy free menu.", So I said "No. We can have whey." (/troll face), And he was like "Well the thing you have to understand is whey and wheat are almost the same thing. I am alot older so do not talk back!", And then I was like "Excuse me!? Whey is milk! I have been on and off on this diet too, I know." He blushed and gave us our damn ice cream. We went about our day.

NANANANANANA, My awesomeness is un-freakin'-deniable.
 

droomph

weeb
4,285
Posts
12
Years
Eh? God has a separate morality to us? That's news to me - isn't he supposed to turn the other cheek? If God is allowed to retaliate, to be vengeful, then he does have a different moral code to us. And, because he is God, that code must be superior. So shouldn't we be following that instead?
He has the authority, because he is God. We sin when we judge, because we aren't perfect either. From a thousand miles away, two miles doesn't look much different than one.

And besides, look at our forum's rules - no mini-modding. This is the same idea.
I just. No. You don't kill the ones you love out of anger. Whatever you're feeling as you condemn them to screaming, burning eternity, it sure isn't love (and before anyone offers 'regret', I'd like to point out that God is perfect and doesn't make mistakes. So can't regret). If the deepest kind of love is unconditional - which, okay, that's debatable, but a love that can be broken under specific circumstances is by definition not as strong as one that endures through anything - then that rather implies forgiveness, does it not? I'd rather know a God who told me that whatever I did, at the end of the day he'd still love me than one that said, 'whoa, whoa, sure, do what you want, but ONLY UP TO THIS POINT AND NO FURTHER - screw up majorly enough and I'm going to torture you in unspeakable ways forever.' How on earth is coerced, compulsory love worthy of the name? How is a love born out of fear healthy or natural? These are the questions we must have answers to before accepting the truth of your position: if we disagree fundamentally on what love amounts to, then our arguments miss each other entirely.
The fact of fact is that sinning is not much a big of a deal as taking his place - the Devil was thrown out of heaven not because he screwed up but rather because he tried to take God's place. Whether this is fair isn't up to me, but that's what happens.
tl;dr: to reconcile the ideas of a God who loves infinitely and a God who punishes infinitely, you have to bend the concept of love so far over backwards it snaps. You can call the taped-up broken pieces love, if you want to. But - in my humble view - it's unworthy of the name.
Not everyone deserves to be with God. It's not a privilege, it's a gift. You must accept it first to get it, and it's sure as hell easy to get.
Eh? I thought everyone was equal in heaven. You're telling me there's some formula that decides who gets more and who gets less? Surely that leads to discontent and jealousy. Can't we all just have the same - enough to keep us happy, no more, no less - for once?
You're taking this as if it's Earth, and we are in control of this gift. It's so easy to gain what's 100% it's pretty much impossible to get any less. This is the gift of Jesus - everyone now has access eternal heaven, not just the few privileged ones.
If only. The cruellest part of the Christian doctrine is that God doesn't just kill you and have done with it. No, instead you're hurled into insufferable torture for eternity.

Think about that. Eternity. Can we even conceive of such a state as finite beings? Can we fully understand the horror of such a fate? And how could anyone possibly be happy in heaven knowing the overwhelming pain and suffering happening beneath them?
I didn't say how he would, but that's how it is. I never said he would in an instant - nor did I say he would for eternity. However much you deserve, he will let you have it.
Chances are you'll know someone undergoing that torture. Could you live with yourself if you went about your afterlife never thinking of them, never sympathising, never pleading with God to reverse their fate? What if it was your brother? Your wife? Your child?
I would not sympathize with them, as this is God's choice.
Wouldn't the mothers who'd lost their children want more than anything to be with them, even if the pain was unimaginable? Anything but sit helplessly on their cloud, knowing how much their baby boy or girl was hurting. That, to me, sounds like Hell. An insidious, emotional Hell, with none of the stereotypical fire and flames, none of the brimstone, the cackling demons - and somehow all the worse for that.

Trapped upstairs while your child burns beneath you - with no hope of escape in either case. I genuinely shudder to think of it.
I wouldn't sympathize with them, because this is God's choice.
 

Barrels

The Fresh Prince of Kanto
82
Posts
12
Years
First, thank you for taking the time to respond so politely! :D It's always nice when you can have a civilised discussion on the interwebs. To that end, here are my thoughts on your rebuttal:

He has the authority, because he is God. We sin when we judge, because we aren't perfect either. From a thousand miles away, two miles doesn't look much different than one.

And besides, look at our forum's rules - no mini-modding. This is the same idea.
I'm not entirely sure I comprehend your argument. As I see it (and please do correct me if I'm wrong!), this is what you believe:
1) We have one moral code ('turn the other cheek' etc.).
2) This directly contradicts God's stated intentions ('you will be punished for your sins' etc.).
3) Therefore God has a separate moral code.
4) Therefore morality is not universal - there is no 'right' way to behave. It all depends on who you are (i.e. God/human). There is no true morality - there is one rule for us and one rule for God in all circumstances (although occasionally these might be the same).

Here's where I see the argument running into problems - leaving aside the fact that it is hypocritical by definition to judge others for doing something you yourself engage in, shouldn't we be trying to behave in the best way possible throughout our lives? Since God can't sin, all his behaviour must therefore be perfect. It follows that we ought to imitate God as much as possible in order to strive for perfection - or at least as close to perfection as we can achieve.

It really doesn't make sense to say that we should be governed by a separate moral code if this code is inferior to God's. Internally it's just not consistent. If our code truly showed the right way to live, God would obey it too. Likewise, if God's code is the right way to live, we should obey that instead. Handwaving it with talk of 'authority' is irrational - since when did a big stick imply rightness? We are talking of morality here, not punishment or reward. The truly moral man does not flinch from sticks and stones - or indeed fire and brimstone - if they are an inevitable consequence of doing the right thing.

The fact of fact is that sinning is not much a big of a deal as taking his place - the Devil was thrown out of heaven not because he screwed up but rather because he tried to take God's place. Whether this is fair isn't up to me, but that's what happens.

This is really interesting to me. 'Whether this is fair isn't up to me' - that sounds almost like resignation to what is, in my view, a horrible state of affairs! And I disagree - it is absolutely up to you to examine the situation and decide whether or not it is just. That's the moral thing to do. How can you justify supporting a cause you deem to be unfair? You can't - your heart's not in it, you're unwilling, you know deep down that what you are doing isn't honest. It's the Nuremberg defence all over again - here, I'll quote from the Nuremberg Principles:

"The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him."

In our case, 'a superior' is obviously God. And a moral choice is, at all times, possible. I'll leave you with this question: who is more moral, the man who blindly follows orders or the man who first examines them to see whether they are just and should be followed?

Not everyone deserves to be with God. It's not a privilege, it's a gift. You must accept it first to get it, and it's sure as hell easy to get.

Given the circumstances, this is chilling. It's not as if the 'undeserving' simply don't get to be with God in Heaven - they are actually tortured. In my view, no one deserves to be tortured for not accepting a belief for which there is no sound basis. You might as well tie me to a rock and summon an eagle to eat out my heart for not believing in Superman - it's just as unfair.

I'll condense this. Sure, God is allowed to pick who he wants in Heaven. That's fine. Okay. But if there is only one alternative - eternal damnation - then no, he absolutely is not. I cannot accept under any decent moral standpoint that people deserve to be tortured - which is what you are saying. If you and I disagree on this, then our concepts of morality are so wildly different that we might as well be speaking in a foreign language. We're just spinning our wheels, trying hopelessly to convince the other of the rightness of our position.

I also take issue with the assertion that it is 'easy' to believe in God. We need only study the countless examples of men and women (C.S. Lewis is probably one of the most famous) who have struggled backward and forward with belief to see that this is not universally the case.

You're taking this as if it's Earth, and we are in control of this gift. It's so easy to gain what's 100% it's pretty much impossible to get any less. This is the gift of Jesus - everyone now has access eternal heaven, not just the few privileged ones.

Could you possibly rephrase this sentence? 'It's so easy to gain what's 100% it's pretty much impossible to get any less.' I've read it every which way I can think of and it's not making any sense to me.

Also, I'm worried you may be misunderstanding: you originally stated that 'if one lets him carry out his actions through you, he will pay you back ten times as much as you lost, and ten times as much as you ever have earned.' I'll do a logical breakdown again:
1) If you are a good Christian, God will pay you back ten times as much as you ever lost, and ten times as much as you ever earned.
2) Some people lose more than others. Likewise, some people earn more than others.
3) Using the formula given in 1), we have 10 x overall loss and 10 x overall gain.
4) Imagine Adam, Betty and Chris. Adam loses his house, his job, his family and dies penniless. Betty, on the other hand, prospers - she becomes a CEO, then a mother, all the while living in absolute luxury. Chris lives a middle-of-the-road sort of life, neither losing nor gaining huge amounts.
5) For the sake of argument, we may quantify loss and gain. (We have to, anyway, to accept 1) as a valid premise.)
6) Say Adam's loss is -90 and his gain is +5. Betty's loss is -5 and her gain +90. Using God's formula, they both receive the same amount in Heaven (namely, +950) - so up to this point, the argument works.
7) But Chris comes along and throws a great big spanner in the works. Say his loss was -30 and his gain +30. His total is +600. This obviously comes nowhere near the relative luxury Adam and Betty are enjoying!
8) So... without completely breaking mathematics, it's impossible for everyone to be equal in the Kingdom of Heaven.

If you choose to break mathematics, you'll have to provide a substitute system - which, since maths is basically logic, will be rationally incoherent. If you choose to state that everyone is equal in the Kingdom of Heaven, you're contradicting your original statement.

--

You didn't answer my question: 'how could anyone possibly be happy in heaven knowing the overwhelming pain and suffering happening beneath them?'

OK, so I'm assuming you're a lovely person who feels empathy for others. My point is that unless that empathy is stripped out, you cannot be happy while imagining the infinite pain and suffering underneath you. Empathy is the ability to understand the feelings of another - and imagining that infinite pain isn't going to be pleasant by definition (since pain is unpleasant). So we have ourselves another conundrum:

If you have the capacity for empathy, you can't be happy in Heaven. It follows that the version of you that eventually makes it there is missing some of its original parts - I would argue the parts that are vital to your sense of self. So whatever warped resultant entity is strolling around with the angels, it's not you. Not you as you could recognise yourself. That, to me, is a terrifying thought - and it's why Heaven holds no appeal for me. It isn't me who's going there, after all. Perhaps it looks like me - perhaps it sounds the same. But it is simply a bright machine.

Again, thanks for reading! To make it easier to continue the discussion, here's a list of points I'd like answered:
1) Isn't it hypocritical by definition to judge others for doing something you yourself engage in? Didn't you yourself define hypocrisy as a terrible sin?
2) Who is more moral, the man who blindly follows orders or the man who first examines them to see whether they are just and should be followed?
3) Do people deserve to be tortured just for failing to believe something utterly irrational (e.g. in Superman)?
4) Are you choosing to break mathematics or contradict your original statement with regard to relative rewards in the Kingdom of Heaven?
5) Given the following quotes:
Wouldn't the mothers who'd lost their children want more than anything to be with them, even if the pain was unimaginable? Anything but sit helplessly on their cloud, knowing how much their baby boy or girl was hurting. That, to me, sounds like Hell.
I wouldn't sympathize with them, because this is God's choice.
Do you claim to speak for everyone deserving of a place in Heaven?
6) How can the entity in Heaven be, in any meaningful sense, the same as the entity on Earth and thus provide some sort of consistency (which is required if salvation/punishment are to be justified) if it is missing vital parts of the original persona?

Once again, thank you for being so polite, and I eagerly await your response! :D
 
10,769
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14
Years
Wouldn't the mothers who'd lost their children want more than anything to be with them, even if the pain was unimaginable? Anything but sit helplessly on their cloud, knowing how much their baby boy or girl was hurting. That, to me, sounds like Hell. An insidious, emotional Hell, with none of the stereotypical fire and flames, none of the brimstone, the cackling demons - and somehow all the worse for that.

Trapped upstairs while your child burns beneath you - with no hope of escape in either case. I genuinely shudder to think of it.
Geez, I'm already in the non-believer camp, but I've never thought of this kind of situation before. There are probably lots of "good Christians" out there who have loved ones who are "sinners." This is reminding me of stories you read about, like ones of people who have left war-torn areas of the world, leaving their families behind and not knowing if they are alive or dead. I already thought those were pretty heart-wrenching stories, but if you were safe and you knew for certain that someone else was suffering that would probably crush you.
 

Shdwj

Excuse me?
151
Posts
15
Years
  • Seen May 24, 2016
I'm not entirely sure I comprehend your argument. As I see it (and please do correct me if I'm wrong!), this is what you believe:
1) We have one moral code ('turn the other cheek' etc.).
2) This directly contradicts God's stated intentions ('you will be punished for your sins' etc.).
3) Therefore God has a separate moral code.
4) Therefore morality is not universal - there is no 'right' way to behave. It all depends on who you are (i.e. God/human). There is no true morality - there is one rule for us and one rule for God in all circumstances (although occasionally these might be the same).

This whole 'turn the other cheek' subject must be understood within the context in which it was stated. Put simply, Jesus didn't want His followers (or anyone, for that matter) to follow the path of revenge. We all know what revenge is. However, it is important to understand that there is a difference between revenge and justice. Revenge simply creates more physical and emotional pain for the parties involved and is sprawled from an unholy hatred of a person or a group of people. Justice seeks to reward the good and punish the wicked. The former is wicked while the latter is righteous. When Jesus told us to 'turn the other cheek,' He was telling us to do the opposite of what our nature would want us to do: get even.

Now, it is crucial to understand that God is, indeed, a loving God. The world today has adopted this view of God as an all-powerful being who is sitting upon His throne in heaven, looking down upon the inhabitants of earth waiting for someone to do something wrong so that He may smite them. That's not who God is. He wants all to be saved and to enter the gates of heaven one day to be with Him eternally; the Bible says that God is a patient God and desires all men to be saved. This is why He sent Jesus. For those of you who do not know who Jesus was (and is), put simply, He is the Son of God. Why exactly did He send Jesus to earth? How does that display God's love for us in anyway? This is where the topic of justice comes back in.
The Bible says that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." The Bible also says that the punishment for sin is death: both physical and spiritual. While we must realize that God is a loving God, we must also understand that He is a righteous and holy God. Therefore, sin must be atoned for somehow. This is why God ordained the animal sacrifices in the first five books of the Bible. He alone is holy, and he cannot stand the sight of sin.

However, these animal sacrifices were meant to be temporary: these sacrifices were only meant to lead to His ultimate plan. This is where Jesus comes in. Because He was and is the Son of God, He is perfect. This is what His death on the cross was all about: because He is the perfect and living God, only His blood alone can completely and forever cleanse us from our sins. No other sacrifices had to be made because God the Father was satisfied with the sacrifice made on the cross.

That is how God displayed His love for us through Jesus Christ. "While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." While we were still his enemies spiritually, He allowed himself to be made a sacrifice for our sins and was thinking about all of us as he hung there on the cross. Yes, there is a hell. But God loved us enough to send His only Son to die for us. Even if you, reader, were the only person on earth He still would have come to lay His life down that you may be forgiven and allowed to enter the kingdom of heaven. His gift of everlasting life has been offered to all of us freely. How do we obtain it? We simply receive it. The Bible says "it is by grace through faith that we are saved, and that not of ourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." We can't earn our way to heaven because we are sinful by nature (recall all the animal sacrifices even the righteous people in the Old Testament had to make); because we are sinful by nature, our good works will never be enough to get us into heaven. But Christ offers eternal life to us freely if we will only repent (change our way of thinking, turn away from sin and turn our lives towards Him) and put our faith in Him. Once we put our trust in Him alone for salvation, He saves us. In fact, the Bible says that we receive His Holy Spirit when we do, and that Holy Spirit is the assurance of our place in heaven. Salvation is through faith alone: not through any good works we can ever do. No one ever has to work for a gift, right? And that's what salvation is: a gift to all who are willing to receive it. And Christianity isn't about living a perfect life. I, and every Christian living today, are far from perfect. We make A LOT of mistakes. But God promised to forgive those who ask for forgiveness.

God does not follow a different set of morals: morality is ultimate and does not change with time. However, His ways certainly are different than ours. We think of our own plans, but He has even higher plans in mind: for each and everyone of us. Salvation truly is through faith in Him alone: we are made pure by His sacrifice alone. When we ask Him to forgive us and to be our savior, he will never turn his back and reject our request. Certainly, all of this takes faith, but it is through our faith that Jesus will save us that God redeems us.

I hope I made sense in responding to your message. I love Jesus not because of anything on my part, but because He first love me.
 

droomph

weeb
4,285
Posts
12
Years
1) Isn't it hypocritical by definition to judge others for doing something you yourself engage in? Didn't you yourself define hypocrisy as a terrible sin?
2) Who is more moral, the man who blindly follows orders or the man who first examines them to see whether they are just and should be followed?
3) Do people deserve to be tortured just for failing to believe something utterly irrational (e.g. in Superman)?
4) Are you choosing to break mathematics or contradict your original statement with regard to relative rewards in the Kingdom of Heaven?
5) Given the following quotes:

Do you claim to speak for everyone deserving of a place in Heaven?

6) How can the entity in Heaven be, in any meaningful sense, the same as the entity on Earth and thus provide some sort of consistency (which is required if salvation/punishment are to be justified) if it is missing vital parts of the original persona?
1) What is the hypocritical part? I don't understand what you're trying to say...
2) I have never said to blindly follow orders. I have only said that faith is the one salvation. In fact, you should never blindly follow orders, because that clouds you from the truth. What if someone misguides you?
3) It's not the failure to believe - God will show Himself to you when it's time, in the right form. It's the pride that blinds you that is so wrong.
4) I never contradicted myself - I merely said that it's up to Him, rather than you, or any worldly authority.
5) I wouldn't feel for them, because they were stuck up in refusing God's gift for so long. He doesn't require anything from you, and he is in fact, actively giving you his gift. If you don't accept it, you don't deserve a place in heaven. I can't stress this point enough. All you need to be is to submit to him. Obtaining His gift is the easy path out (since he has taken your place and done the hard work), and yet it is the best path to take.

6) The person above me has answered that. God loves all of us, and is actively trying to help us cleanse ourselves of our sin. However, if one refuses his effort to help us (which is harder than to not), we have shown that we don't want, nor deserve, his love.
 

Oryx

CoquettishCat
13,184
Posts
13
Years
  • Age 31
  • Seen Jan 30, 2015
Geez, I'm already in the non-believer camp, but I've never thought of this kind of situation before. There are probably lots of "good Christians" out there who have loved ones who are "sinners." This is reminding me of stories you read about, like ones of people who have left war-torn areas of the world, leaving their families behind and not knowing if they are alive or dead. I already thought those were pretty heart-wrenching stories, but if you were safe and you knew for certain that someone else was suffering that would probably crush you.

I spoke to my aunt a few months ago and was horrified at what she was saying. She's a hardcore Catholic, she watches EWTN all the time and goes to church multiple times a week. Her husband that she had been married to for 60+ years died a few years ago. She's insistent that he's in hell because he didn't go with her to church or believe in God. I was so taken aback and honestly hurt that she was so nonchalant about it.

Then I told her if God exists I couldn't imagine him being so unmerciful as to reveal that he exists to a person and then ignore their repentance in the afterlife to torture them for eternity, and she just kept interrupting me and saying "no" over and over again. ;_;
 

Shdwj

Excuse me?
151
Posts
15
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  • Seen May 24, 2016
I spoke to my aunt a few months ago and was horrified at what she was saying. She's a hardcore Catholic, she watches EWTN all the time and goes to church multiple times a week. Her husband that she had been married to for 60+ years died a few years ago. She's insistent that he's in hell because he didn't go with her to church or believe in God. I was so taken aback and honestly hurt that she was so nonchalant about it.

Then I told her if God exists I couldn't imagine him being so unmerciful as to reveal that he exists to a person and then ignore their repentance in the afterlife to torture them for eternity, and she just kept interrupting me and saying "no" over and over again. ;_;

It certainly can be a scary thought. However, I simply cannot call God unmerciful. He gives many the opportunity throughout their lives to place their faith in Him. It's true that God really is love. He desires everyone to come to the knowledge of the truth. This is why He sent Jesus: to give all of us a chance to be forgiven through Him.

Also, I understand that the thought of a loved one being in hell can certainly be scary and quite hurtful. In the case with your aunt, simply because she speaks of it so nonchalantly does not necessarily mean she didn't carry hurt inside when her husband passed away. What appears on the outside isn't necessarily a representation of what people feel on the inside. But forgive me if I am out of place in speaking on such a matter. I just understand what it is like to mask hurt from others.
 

droomph

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I spoke to my aunt a few months ago and was horrified at what she was saying. She's a hardcore Catholic, she watches EWTN all the time and goes to church multiple times a week. Her husband that she had been married to for 60+ years died a few years ago. She's insistent that he's in hell because he didn't go with her to church or believe in God. I was so taken aback and honestly hurt that she was so nonchalant about it.

Then I told her if God exists I couldn't imagine him being so unmerciful as to reveal that he exists to a person and then ignore their repentance in the afterlife to torture them for eternity, and she just kept interrupting me and saying "no" over and over again. ;_;
She may not show her emotions, as again, this is God's decision. But inside, I'm sure that she's hurting just like you at what she's saying herself.

And she's right in that he probably is, based on the fact he didn't believe in God or whatnot. However, if he has asked for God or even thought about repentance to some sort, he's probably not.

However I have never known him, so I can't say. We can all only hope what is true is true...but as a Christian I do hope that he isn't.
 

Oryx

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It certainly can be a scary thought. However, I simply cannot call God unmerciful. He gives many the opportunity throughout their lives to place their faith in Him. It's true that God really is love. He desires everyone to come to the knowledge of the truth. This is why He sent Jesus: to give all of us a chance to be forgiven through Him.

Also, I understand that the thought of a loved one being in hell can certainly be scary and quite hurtful. In the case with your aunt, simply because she speaks of it so nonchalantly does not necessarily mean she didn't carry hurt inside when her husband passed away. What appears on the outside isn't necessarily a representation of what people feel on the inside. But forgive me if I am out of place in speaking on such a matter. I just understand what it is like to mask hurt from others.

Saying "God is merciful" and then agreeing with the premise that he would not give you a chance to repent after death, instead judging you on your life regardless of your repentance after death is a massive contradiction.

Droomph: please don't try to speculate on whether or not my family members are in hell, that's not really acceptable in this situation.
 

Shdwj

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Saying "God is merciful" and then agreeing with the premise that he would not give you a chance to repent after death, instead judging you on your life regardless of your repentance after death is a massive contradiction.

Excuse me. Let me elucidate. We are given the opportunity to repent in this lifetime. If we put our faith in Christ, we are promised eternal life. Mercy is holding back what we deserve: and we all deserve punishment for our sins. We don't deserve a second chance yet He offers us one anyway. God is patient and is waiting for people to make their decision: whether or not they will accept His gift--His free gift which He offers to all people regardless of anything they have done in the past--of salvation. God loves you! God loves me! He doesn't want anyone to suffer in hell. Why else would Jesus have come down to die the agonizing death on the cross if He didn't want any of us to be saved? if he didn't want to bestow mercy and grace upon people?

We must remember that God is righteous and just. He cannot leave sin unpunished. You know that hell wasn't created for people? It was created for Satan and his demons. However, after the fall of man kind (the story of Adam and Eve) sin entered the world and the hearts of people. This is why God sent Jesus: to show mercy and grace to a people in desperate need of cleansing and forgiveness. As I stated before, He doesn't want anyone to go to hell, but people must make their choice now: to accept His forgiveness or deny it. He has made a way for us because He loves us. :)
 

Shining Raichu

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God is apparently the all-powerful being. If he didn't want anyone to suffer in Hell and if his "gifts" were truly "free" then we would all make it into Heaven whether we believe in him in this lifetime or not. If he doesn't want something to happen, then it needn't.

droomph, I find myself becoming more and more disturbed by the things you say. You seem to have ignored most of Barrels' points and just answered his summary questions as though he had said nothing. In any case, of all the things you've said, sticking to your lack of empathy is possibly the most disturbing thing of all:

droomph said:
I wouldn't feel for them, because they were stuck up in refusing God's gift for so long. He doesn't require anything from you, and he is in fact, actively giving you his gift. If you don't accept it, you don't deserve a place in heaven. I can't stress this point enough. All you need to be is to submit to him. Obtaining His gift is the easy path out (since he has taken your place and done the hard work), and yet it is the best path

What you're saying is that you have a lack of empathy for these people. Empathy for those less fortunate than yourself (as the people who are burning in eternal Hellfire undoubtedly are) is a key ingredient in morality - that is, it seems, unless the misfortune comes as a result of the action of God, at which point those people are unworthy of your thought or feeling.

So my question to you is, if you only feel selective empathy and are lacking a key aspect of moral and righteous thought, are you any better than those condemned to Hell? God's word notwithstanding and using only your own sense of morality as a guide, does your lack of empathy not mean that you should also be condemned to the same fate?

And on that note, is it not possible that God is testing you on this point? Would he want you to feel empathy regardless of his actions and be displeased that you don't?
 

Shdwj

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God is apparently the all-powerful being. If he didn't want anyone to suffer in Hell and if his "gifts" were truly "free" then we would all make it into Heaven whether we believe in him in this lifetime or not. If he doesn't want something to happen, then it needn't.

droomph, I find myself becoming more and more disturbed by the things you say. You seem to have ignored most of Barrels' points and just answered his summary questions as though he had said nothing. In any case, of all the things you've said, sticking to your lack of empathy is possibly the most disturbing thing of all:



What you're saying is that you have a lack of empathy for these people. Empathy for those less fortunate than yourself (as the people who are burning in eternal Hellfire undoubtedly are) is a key ingredient in morality - that is, it seems, unless the misfortune comes as a result of the action of God, at which point those people are unworthy of your thought or feeling.

So my question to you is, if you only feel selective empathy and are lacking a key aspect of moral and righteous thought, are you any better than those condemned to Hell? God's word notwithstanding and using only your own sense of morality as a guide, does your lack of empathy not mean that you should also be condemned to the same fate?

And on that note, is it not possible that God is testing you on this point? Would he want you to feel empathy regardless of his actions and be displeased that you don't?

People can accept gifts. People can also reject them. Jesus Christ is the way, the truth and the life. His gift of salvation is truly free, but accepting is something that a person must do out of his own will.

And as I stated before, God simply will not let sin go unpunished. Yes, he loves the sinner, but he must punish sin. And as I stated before, this is the reason why Christ came to earth: to make us clean from our sins.

And yes, God is the only all-powerful being. However, he gives everyone a choice. Imagine a world where people were forced to believe in him--a world where everyone was programmed to love God. God wouldn't be showing true love if he were showing forced love. No, because God truly loves each and every one of us, he gives us a choice. He wants us to be with him.

Now, on God's righteousness and judgment. Consider a judge. What does a judge do? He punishes evil and rewards good. He wouldn't be a good judge if he didn't do that. Imagine further if a loved one of his was caught in the act of murder. The judge wouldn't want to send him to prison, but because justice and righteousness must be upheld, he must give him his sentence. It doesn't make the judge love his friend any less, but the judge understands what is right and knows he must carry out justice in the name of righteousness--even if it brings him much sorrow to do so. Because God is holy, he cannot allow sin into heaven. He can't allow it not because he is following some rules that he must keep, but because it is his character. The laws in the Bible were created by him because he knows what is right because, as we mentioned before, he is the only all-powerful, omniscient being. God is righteousness in its truest form. Christ's sacrifice makes us clean, however, so we are given passage into heaven. But, as I said before, people need to make a choice.

I know I've been doing a lot of talking, but the main point I want to get across is this: God really, really does love you. As I have said before, he doesn't want anyone to go to hell. And as I mentioned earlier, God hates sin, not the sinner. His love is so real: and real love allows people to make their own choices out of their own will. I know that talk of hell can really scare some people, but don't let this conversation fool you into thinking that God is scary. He wants to come into your life and be, not only your God, but your friend. He did die for you, after all. The last thing I want to do is misrepresent him, and all he wants is for you to know that he loves you, and that he has made a way for all of us. :)

droomph said:
If you don't accept it, you don't deserve a place in heaven. I can't stress this point enough.

The truth is that none of us, Christian or non-Christian, deserves a place in heaven. We have all sinned. We have all failed God. God is proud of the good things that his followers do for others, but that doesn't make us any more deserving. Christ in us, Christ covering our sins, is the only reason we could ever dream of living in heaven with him someday.

Christians aren't any better than non-Christians. I want to make that point clear. We still make mistakes. We stumble. The only difference is that Christians have asked Jesus to come into their lives and hearts to change them. Our only hope is Jesus. Truly, it takes faith to believe that he loves us more than we'll ever know. It takes faith to believe that he will save us from hell if we only put our trust in him for salvation. In the end, it is by grace through faith that anyone is saved. :)
 

Oryx

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People can accept gifts. People can also reject them. Jesus Christ is the way, the truth and the life. His gift of salvation is truly free, but accepting is something that a person must do out of his own will.

And as I stated before, God simply will not let sin go unpunished. Yes, he loves the sinner, but he must punish sin. And as I stated before, this is the reason why Christ came to earth: to make us clean from our sins.

And yes, God is the only all-powerful being. However, he gives everyone a choice. Imagine a world where people were forced to believe in him--a world where everyone was programmed to love God. God wouldn't be showing true love if he were showing forced love. No, because God truly loves each and every one of us, he gives us a choice. He wants us to be with him.

The point is, what person do you imagine knows that God exists in the afterlife (for obvious reasons) and then still rejects him? So are you saying there are repentant, God-loving people in hell? They don't deserve forgiveness for the sin of not believing in God as much as you deserve forgiveness?

I'm fairly certain if I was 100% sure that God existed I wouldn't reject his love. Which is the point I'm making here. After death, if God is real he would make himself known to the person. And then this person who was bad in life becomes repentant, asks for forgiveness. Who are you to say that they are not receiving forgiveness? Why are you claiming to know which sin in life is worth hell and which isn't? Isn't it part of your religion not to pretend to be God by judging others? Arguing "sin has to be punished" and "people who don't believe in God in life are all going to hell" are two entirely separate things.

Now, on God's righteousness and judgment. Consider a judge. What does a judge do? He punishes evil and rewards good. He wouldn't be a good judge if he didn't do that. Imagine further if a loved one of his was caught in the act of murder. The judge wouldn't want to send him to prison, but because justice and righteousness must be upheld, he must give him his sentence. It doesn't make the judge love his friend any less, but the judge understands what is right and knows he must carry out justice in the name of righteousness--even if it brings him much sorrow to do so. Because God is holy, he cannot allow sin into heaven. He can't allow it not because he is following some rules that he must keep, but because it is his character. The laws in the Bible were created by him because he knows what is right because, as we mentioned before, he is the only all-powerful, omniscient being. God is righteousness in its truest form. Christ's sacrifice makes us clean, however, so we are given passage into heaven. But, as I said before, people need to make a choice.

Are you not a sinner then? Since, you know, no sin can make it into heaven and since you accepted God's love you're obviously going to heaven.

I know I've been doing a lot of talking, but the main point I want to get across is this: God really, really does love you. As I have said before, he doesn't want anyone to go to hell. And as I mentioned earlier, God hates sin, not the sinner. His love is so real: and real love allows people to make their own choices out of their own will. I know that talk of hell can really scare some people, but don't let this conversation fool you into thinking that God is scary. He wants to come into your life and be, not only your God, but your friend. He did die for you, after all. The last thing I want to do is misrepresent him, and all he wants is for you to know that he loves you, and that he has made a way for all of us. :)

If God loves people then he wouldn't send anyone that repents into eternal damnation, whether they repented in life or after death. A God that looks at a person begging for forgiveness for their actions and says "no, burn for eternity", is not loving. You can't reconcile a merciful, forgiving God and a God that judges you entirely on how your life was, disregarding your repentance after death. One of those has to be not entirely true.
 

Oryx

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I think the general consensus of religion would disagree with your claim that we are not all God's children.

Are you not a sinner then? Or are you resigned to going to hell?
 

Shdwj

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The point is, what person do you imagine knows that God exists in the afterlife (for obvious reasons) and then still rejects him? So are you saying there are repentant, God-loving people in hell? They don't deserve forgiveness for the sin of not believing in God as much as you deserve forgiveness?

I'm fairly certain if I was 100% sure that God existed I wouldn't reject his love. Which is the point I'm making here. After death, if God is real he would make himself known to the person. And then this person who was bad in life becomes repentant, asks for forgiveness. Who are you to say that they are not receiving forgiveness? Why are you claiming to know which sin in life is worth hell and which isn't? Isn't it part of your religion not to pretend to be God by judging others? Arguing "sin has to be punished" and "people who don't believe in God in life are all going to hell" are two entirely separate things.

Okay, before I say any more, I would like to kindly ask that you stop putting words in my mouth. Did I say that "this particular sin will send you to hell and this sin won't"? Did I judge anyone at all? I simply stated that all of us have sinned. Me, you, everyone on earth has committed some sin or another. Tell me, have you ever told a lie? I know I have. Have you ever used God's name in vain? I have. Have you lusted after a person? Jesus equates that with adultery. All I'm trying to say is that no person is better than another. God created us all equal--we are all his creation. However, because of original sin (the sin Adam and Eve committed when they disobeyed God) man was separated from God. Did you know Adam and Eve walked in the Garden of Eden with God himself? But sin ended that direct relationship. And I'll get to it in a moment, but through Christ's atonement, we can once again have a close relationship with God.

Perhaps you're misunderstanding the meaning of "don't judge others." I did not say that I was better than anyone in my previous posts. In fact, I was hoping to avoid that, because nothing can be farther from the truth. All men are created equal in the eyes of God.

Toujours said:
Now, on God's righteousness and judgment. Consider a judge. What does a judge do? He punishes evil and rewards good. He wouldn't be a good judge if he didn't do that. Imagine further if a loved one of his was caught in the act of murder. The judge wouldn't want to send him to prison, but because justice and righteousness must be upheld, he must give him his sentence. It doesn't make the judge love his friend any less, but the judge understands what is right and knows he must carry out justice in the name of righteousness--even if it brings him much sorrow to do so. Because God is holy, he cannot allow sin into heaven. He can't allow it not because he is following some rules that he must keep, but because it is his character. The laws in the Bible were created by him because he knows what is right because, as we mentioned before, he is the only all-powerful, omniscient being. God is righteousness in its truest form. Christ's sacrifice makes us clean, however, so we are given passage into heaven. But, as I said before, people need to make a choice.

Perhaps I didn't explain it clearly. This is how the miracle of salvation works. When a person is born, he is born a sinner by nature, again, because of original sin. This makes us incapable of entering heaven. The animal sacrifices performed by the Israelites in the Old Testament were performed because blood had to be shed because of the sins of the people. They couldn't simply sacrifice any animal, either. It had to be without blemish. This is how serious God takes sin. Jesus came to die on the cross for the sins of everyone. Because he is the Son of God, he is without blemish, but in a different sense than the animals (a lot of the laws in the Old Testament were also symbolic of the things to come in the New Testament). Clearly, he is holy, and animals are not. He truly is without blemish. He took the punishment that we deserve. Because of this sacrifice, all who turn to him can and will be saved. The righteousness and holiness of Jesus is imputed upon the believer (remember, He lived a perfect life, so he really is righteous and holy). This is why believers are given passage into heaven. Not by any good works they may have done during their life time, but because when God looks into the hearts of the believers he sees the perfect sacrifice of his son, and that sacrifice is sufficient. When a person accepts Jesus, the sins of the past, present, and even the future are wiped away. He completely disregards and forgets about them. When God sees us, he does not see our sin but the perfect blood of Jesus Christ.

This is the only reason why anyone can make it into heaven. I'm sorry if I lead you to think that I'm not a sinner. I still fall. I still stumble. I make mistakes. But I have faith that when God looks at me, he doesn't see my sin any longer because he has forgiven me. Why? Because of the blood of Jesus. And also because he loves me, just as he loves everyone else. :) I'm not trying to sound conceited. He offers the very same thing to you and to all on earth.

We must also consider the fact that the Holy Spirit is given to those who believe in his name. The Holy Spirit changes us, gives us new desires to not sin and to live for him. Am I saying that Christians no longer have a desire to sin? Of course not. As long as we live in this body, on this earth, we are prone to all kinds of temptations. However, as a person continues to know God more and more, he will want to become more and more like him because of how righteous and loving he is. God's Holy Spirit changes people. In the end, it is his love that leads people to repentance.

Toujours said:
If God loves people then he wouldn't send anyone that repents into eternal damnation, whether they repented in life or after death. A God that looks at a person begging for forgiveness for their actions and says "no, burn for eternity", is not loving. You can't reconcile a merciful, forgiving God and a God that judges you entirely on how your life was, disregarding your repentance after death. One of those has to be not entirely true.

Was my analogy of the judge not clear? Forgive me, but do you realize that one can love while still being just? This is why God the father sent Christ to die for us. Jesus gave his own life for you and me. If he didn't love us then he wouldn't have died the excruciating death on the cross. Did you think it was easy? John 15:13 says "Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends." And you need to realize that he died for you while you were still against him. How many of us would do that? How many of us would go out into lands foreign to us (not that God didn't know earth, but it's true that Jesus gave up his position in heaven to come to our corrupt world; yes, you and I know that it's corrupt) and deliberately die for the people who treated him like garbage? Plus, we must remember the other ways he displayed his love for people. He healed the leper, restored the cripple, restored the sight of the blind. He had true, sincere compassion for the lost. Also, because Jesus is the Son of God, he is an exact reflection of who God was and is. How can we say that he's not loving after all the things he has done for people? For us? Not only that, but consider the blessings in your own lives. A lot of those blessings we could go without, but God still gives them to us anyway! I know that many of you own video games (it is a Pokemon forum, after all). Even that is a blessing from God. Many of you are still breathing today. That's a gift from God as well! Now let me go a little deeper. Consider science. Many people say science disproves God--they couldn't be any more wrong. Science actually proves the existence of the living God. Romans 1:20 states "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse." Think about the fact that the earth is just the right position away from the sun. If it were only a few centimeters closer to the sun, the atmosphere on earth would be too hot for life to exist. If it were any farther away from the sun, it would be too cold. Consider the miracle of the human eye! The complexity of how this body part works is beyond us! We can't imitate the way the eye focuses light, not even with the most complicated cameras and other technology that we have today. Think about just how stable the electrons and protons within an atom are! Oh, how easy it would be for God to simply end it all with the snap of a finger; how easy it would be for him to say the word and cause all atoms on earth to lose that stability, or cause earth to shift in the direction of the sun, or simply crush all under his heel! After all, we did spit in his face with our sins. Why shouldn't he destroy all of man kind? Can't he simply start over? But no. He doesn't do that. Regardless of how people over the years have disregarded and rejected God, he doesn't do it. Now do you understand the magnitude of his patience? Some of us can hardly stand the sarcastic student in our class who lets his mouth slip (I know I can be rather irritable at times). As I said, he wants all people to be saved, so he withholds his hand. Many people are given the chance to accept his love, but some people don't. People are without excuse: creation itself testifies of the majesty and glory of God. All of it points back to Jesus. This is the magnitude of his love for us. By the time the unbeliever dies, he had already made his choice. For those who have been offered the truth during their lifetime, they are without excuse. Do I enjoy this? No! Does God enjoy it? No! But he is righteous and holy. He cannot allow sin into his kingdom. But as I said, God already went to great lengths to make a way for us, to reveal himself to us, and to redeem us.

Toujours said:
I think the general consensus of religion would disagree with your claim that we are not all God's children.

Are you not a sinner then? Or are you resigned to going to hell?

There is a difference between being God's "children" and being his "creation." We are all his creation. You, me, everyone on earth. The Bible states that when a person is saved, he is adopted into God's family. People are given the Holy Spirit when they are saved, and Romans 8:15 says "For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, 'Abba, Father.'" The term 'Abba' signifies the close relationship people gain with God when they receive him. As I stated before, I am a sinner. However, God is continually changing my life, making me more like him. And again, I'm not saying that I'm perfect. I do admit, however, that he has been changing my desires. He's been placing desires for me to follow after him and reject the sins I once called common. But I'm not perfect. Any change for good in my is all because of Jesus.

Toujours said:
I'm fairly certain if I was 100% sure that God existed I wouldn't reject his love.

Are you 100% God exists? This is the point of faith. It is through faith that we are saved, remember? All it takes is for us to trust in him, and he will come into our life and lead us. Life isn't simply about "don't do this" and "don't do that." There's a reason why God gave us rules in the Bible. It says that "the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." God knows that sin will get us into nothing but trouble during our life on earth. This is another act of love on his part: he wants to give us a true and satisfying life here on earth. Now let me ask you, now: what's keeping you from accepting his sacrifice today?
 

Oryx

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Okay, before I say any more, I would like to kindly ask that you stop putting words in my mouth. Did I say that "this particular sin will send you to hell and this sin won't"? Did I judge anyone at all? I simply stated that all of us have sinned. Me, you, everyone on earth has committed some sin or another. Tell me, have you ever told a lie? I know I have. Have you ever used God's name in vain? I have. Have you lusted after a person? Jesus equates that with adultery. All I'm trying to say is that no person is better than another. God created us all equal--we are all his creation. However, because of original sin (the sin Adam and Eve committed when they disobeyed God) man was separated from God. Did you know Adam and Eve walked in the Garden of Eden with God himself? But sin ended that direct relationship. And I'll get to it in a moment, but through Christ's atonement, we can once again have a close relationship with God.

Perhaps you're misunderstanding the meaning of "don't judge others." I did not say that I was better than anyone in my previous posts. In fact, I was hoping to avoid that, because nothing can be farther from the truth. All men are created equal in the eyes of God.

Sigh. The point is, when you try to justify why a person would decide "This person is in hell", you are agreeing that it's acceptable for that person to pass judgment on this person's life. This began because I talked about how horrified I was with my aunt passing judgment on my dead uncle, and you're trying to justify it. Perhaps you forgot the source of this?

Perhaps I didn't explain it clearly. This is how the miracle of salvation works. When a person is born, he is born a sinner by nature, again, because of original sin. This makes us incapable of entering heaven. The animal sacrifices performed by the Israelites in the Old Testament were performed because blood had to be shed because of the sins of the people. They couldn't simply sacrifice any animal, either. It had to be without blemish. This is how serious God takes sin. Jesus came to die on the cross for the sins of everyone. Because he is the Son of God, he is without blemish, but in a different sense than the animals (a lot of the laws in the Old Testament were also symbolic of the things to come in the New Testament). Clearly, he is holy, and animals are not. He truly is without blemish. He took the punishment that we deserve. Because of this sacrifice, all who turn to him can and will be saved. The righteousness and holiness of Jesus is imputed upon the believer (remember, He lived a perfect life, so he really is righteous and holy). This is why believers are given passage into heaven. Not by any good works they may have done during their life time, but because when God looks into the hearts of the believers he sees the perfect sacrifice of his son, and that sacrifice is sufficient. When a person accepts Jesus, the sins of the past, present, and even the future are wiped away. He completely disregards and forgets about them. When God sees us, he does not see our sin but the perfect blood of Jesus Christ.

This was unnecessarily long. I understand religion, I've been to 7 years of Catholic school. None of this refutes the argument I'm making, which is that if you start believing after death you should be subject to the same forgiveness, and to try to justify claiming otherwise is really pushing it. If you accept that, then you can never justify a person claiming they know whether or not someone went to hell.

This is the only reason why anyone can make it into heaven. I'm sorry if I lead you to think that I'm not a sinner. I still fall. I still stumble. I make mistakes. But I have faith that when God looks at me, he doesn't see my sin any longer because he has forgiven me. Why? Because of the blood of Jesus. And also because he loves me, just as he loves everyone else. :) I'm not trying to sound conceited. He offers the very same thing to you and to all on earth.

We must also consider the fact that the Holy Spirit is given to those who believe in his name. The Holy Spirit changes us, gives us new desires to not sin and to live for him. Am I saying that Christians no longer have a desire to sin? Of course not. As long as we live in this body, on this earth, we are prone to all kinds of temptations. However, as a person continues to know God more and more, he will want to become more and more like him because of how righteous and loving he is. God's Holy Spirit changes people. In the end, it is his love that leads people to repentance.

Once again, we come back to why you seem so sure that people no longer get this chance after death.

Was my analogy of the judge not clear?

...

But as I said, God already went to great lengths to make a way for us, to reveal himself to us, and to redeem us.

Holy crap, condense. Condense. You're making the same mistake here that you keep making over and over - claiming to know for a fact what happens after death. That alone is making your faith-filled rants really obnoxious and personally offensive to me. I shared my comment in a club that is meant to support people that don't believe, and instead I get condescending evangelist who knows what happens after death and thinks it's perfectly alright to tell me why I should expect my family members to be in hell and still accept that God is a wonderful being that loves everyone, especially the ones he throws into eternal damnation for 70-100 years of not acknowledging him.

There is a difference between being God's "children" and being his "creation." We are all his creation. You, me, everyone on earth. The Bible states that when a person is saved, he is adopted into God's family. People are given the Holy Spirit when they are saved, and Romans 8:15 says "For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, 'Abba, Father.'" The term 'Abba' signifies the close relationship people gain with God when they receive him. As I stated before, I am a sinner. However, God is continually changing my life, making me more like him. And again, I'm not saying that I'm perfect. I do admit, however, that he has been changing my desires. He's been placing desires for me to follow after him and reject the sins I once called common. But I'm not perfect. Any change for good in my is all because of Jesus.

Are you 100% God exists? This is the point of faith. It is through faith that we are saved, remember? All it takes is for us to trust in him, and he will come into our life and lead us. Life isn't simply about "don't do this" and "don't do that." There's a reason why God gave us rules in the Bible. It says that "the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." God knows that sin will get us into nothing but trouble during our life on earth. This is another act of love on his part: he wants to give us a true and satisfying life here on earth. Now let me ask you, now: what's keeping you from accepting his sacrifice today?

Am I 100%...what? I'm posting in a club for people who are agnostic/atheist. Is the question is if I'm 100% sure God exists? Obviously I'm not. And honestly, the more you argue the more I believe I made the right decision. You are not coming off well for your religion.

Edit: I shared this anecdote because this club is a safe space for people to share things like this. Don't make this into a place where people have to fear getting preached to every time they post, please.
 
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