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  #1    
Old August 9th, 2011 (4:17 AM).
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Myzou Myzou is offline
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    As the title suggests, I'm having some iffy points on my team. Looking for some opinions on improving.

    TLDR is at the bottom.

    Crustle@ Lum Berry
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Shell Smash
    - Rock Blast
    - X-Scissor
    ---

    Stealth Rock lead, but if I expect a taunt, then I will use an attack, or switch. If I expect a magic coat, or a magic bounce switch, I will shell smash and proceed to make him into a sweeper. Rock Blast over Stone Edge to take out Sashers and Subbers.

    Sawsbuck@ Life Orb
    Trait: Sap Sipper
    EVs: 136 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 116 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Swords Dance
    - Horn Leech
    - Return
    - Nature Power
    ---

    Recent addition to my team, replaced Scolipede. Switch in on a grass attack I know is coming from something I know it's coming from, or on someone trying to buff up, not expecting Sawsbuck to hit very hard (I've run into this a lot, no one thinks it can hit hard at all, only to have him OHKO Suicune while they're busy trying to calm mind up. Nature Power acts as Earthquake in WiFi rooms, etc.

    Sigilyph@ Flame Orb
    Trait: Magic Guard
    EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Cosmic Power
    - Stored Power
    - Roost
    - Psycho Shift
    ---

    Second new addition to team. Was looking for a special attacker, but ended up with a quite competent mixed wall that quickly becomes a VERY evil special sweeper. I know this is cookie cutter, but my god is it amazing. XD

    Lilligant@ Leftovers
    Trait: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 252 HP / 168 Def / 88 SDef
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Quiver Dance
    - Synthesis
    - Aromatherapy
    - Giga Drain
    ---

    This is my... surprise. No one ever expects it. A mixed wall Lilligant. It came around when I hatched a shiny Petilil that was calm natured. The EVs give it 228 def/sp def (have 31 def and sp def, the others are crap though, which also led to the wall idea). Although she'll still get blown over by a physical attacker, typically by the time they switch into one (most try to take her out with a flamethrower user), she has enough quiver dances up her sleeve to OHKO things, or extremely dent them, and finish them off the next turn.

    Mandibuzz@ Leftovers
    Trait: Overcoat
    EVs: 252 HP / 136 Def / 120 SDef
    Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - Toxic
    - Whirlwind
    - Roost
    - Knock Off
    ---

    I shouldn't even need to explain this. Some people go for Brave Bird over Knock Off, which I have been considering, but Knock Off has saved me a lot over the time (Like getting a lucky knock off on an Archeops switch in). Typical Mixed Wall Mandibuzz.

    Audino (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Healer
    EVs: 252 HP / 244 Def / 12 SDef
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Toxic
    - Protect
    - Wish
    - Flamethrower
    ---

    I used to love my Audino. Hatched it (like Lilligant), shiny. Had the right nature, and good IVs, so I said "Why not?" She's a stalling wisher. Flamethrower is meant to hit ghost and steel types, which return wouldn't be doing, and the occasional burn on the physical attackers I can't poison is also amazing.


    So, essentially, I need to replace someone. I'm lacking oomph. I'm thinking that although I like her, Audino is the one that has to go. Lilligant and Mandibuzz are both mixed walls, though Lilligant quickly becomes more specially oriented with quiver dance. Crustle has it's place as a lead and special sweeper, whereas Sawsbuck has it's place as a physical sweeper, and Sigilyph as another mixed wall and special sweeper.

    So, opinions. So, with that in mind, what would you guys suggest as a 6th member for this, if we do in fact remove Audino? I was even considering removing Lilligant, as Mandibuzz and Sigilyph do amazing jobs as walls alone, and Lilligant requires a lot of set up in order to be played effectively.

    TLDR; Looking for suggestions as if I were looking for 2 extra members, with my posted members being Crustle as a lead/physical sweeper, Sawsbuck as a physical sweeper, Mandibuzz as a mixed stall wall, and Sigilyph as a mixed wall/special sweeper. All must be from the 5th generation, all UU (by smogon standards), no legendaries, and no starters. (A personal matter).
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      #2    
    Old August 10th, 2011 (5:55 AM).
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    PlatinumDude PlatinumDude is offline
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    IMO, Shell Smash isn' t very good on lead Crustle because it's meant to support the team early rather than go all-out mid to late game. In that case, replace Shell Smash with Spikes. (you can breed for it).

    Lilligant is best as Timid or Modest because its defenses are bad regardless of being Calm or Bold; use 4 HP/252 SAtk/252 Spe. It also needs a Hidden Power over Aromatherapy (Ice, Fire or Rock) so it won't be walled horribly.

    Audino isn' t very good to be honest; Chansey does its job a lot better:
    -Seismic Toss
    -Thunder Wave
    -Softboiled
    -Stealth Rock (?)
    Nature: Bold
    EVs: 252 HP/252 Def/4 SDef
    Item: Eviolite
    Ability: Natural Cure
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      #3    
    Old August 10th, 2011 (6:09 AM).
    Myzou's Avatar
    Myzou Myzou is offline
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      I do appreciate your comments, but I wasn't looking for suggestions on Crustle. I am quite happy with a Shell Smash variation.

      As for Audino, yes, I know she isn't the best. She was fine, but now is getting outclassed as new strategies pop up. However, Chansey is not from the 5th generation, which is even mentioned in the title of this thread.

      As for Lilligant, as I said, I probably want to replace her. I had her hatch shiny as calm with 31 def and sp.def IVs, which is why I went that route. It's Hidden Power is also Grass.

      I appreciate your comments, but you simply told me that one of the pokemon I wasn't looking for advice on was wrong, that one needed to be completely redone, despite me wanting to replace her, and then suggested a 1st generation replacement for a 5th generation team. That's not very helpful.
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        #4    
      Old August 10th, 2011 (10:03 AM).
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      FaWa FaWa is offline
         
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        No need to get sassy lol. (And usually when you say 5th gen people think that it encompases everything available up until Gen 5. So thats probably where the confusion is coming from)

        But if you are looking for a good wish passer. there are only 3 Fully evolved pokemon with Wish in Gen 5. Of the three Alomomola is by FAR the best option, with great defenses and just in general a good supporting pokemon.

        I dont know too much about Alomomola, (I've never used it) So I'll just give you Smogon's set.


        name: Wish Support
        move 1: Wish
        move 2: Protect
        move 3: Waterfall / Aqua Jet
        move 4: Toxic
        item: Leftovers
        ability: Hydration
        evs: 108 HP / 176 Def / 224 SpD
        nature: Impish

        Hope this helps.
          #5    
        Old August 11th, 2011 (12:58 AM).
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        PlatinumDude PlatinumDude is offline
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        Oh, sorry about that. How about Throh? It can take hits very well:
        -Bulk Up
        -Storm Throw/Circle Throw
        -Payback/Stone Edge
        -Rest/Taunt/Toxic
        Nature: Careful
        EVs: 84 HP/128 Def/252 SDef/44 Spe
        Item: Leftovers
        Ability: Guts
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          #6    
        Old August 11th, 2011 (6:00 AM).
        Myzou's Avatar
        Myzou Myzou is offline
        Lost and Confused xD
           
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          Throh is actually quite amazing. o_o

          Alomomola... not so much. XD

          I used Audino as my first wall, was unexpected. But now people expect it.

          I also replaced Sawsbuck with a Adamant 252 att/252 speed pure physical attacking one, the swords dance one never really lived. (Megahorn, Return, Horn Leech, Jump Kick)

          So, that leaves me with 3 walls, Throh, Mandibuzz, Sigilyph, a physical attacker in sawsbuck, and a physical lead with Crustle.

          Methinks I need another special attacker, as sigilyph is the only one. :S

          I'm looking at Cryogonal for Rapid Spin, honestly.
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            #7    
          Old August 11th, 2011 (6:13 AM).
          Snorelacks
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            Cryogonal is like the Blissey of Gen V. Great Special Defense, terrible Defense. But it trades less HP for better Defense. But it's another wall. If you want a Special Ice-type, use Vanilluxe.

            Vanilluxe @ Life Orb
            Modest Nature
            Ability: Ice Body
            Autotomize/Ice Shard/Icy Wind
            Ice Beam/Blizzard
            Hidden Power Dark
            Water Pulse/Flash Cannon
            EVs: 148 HP/164 SpAtk/196 Spe
            IVs: Flawless (for Dark)

            You can also use Choice Scarf and go Ice Beam/Blizzard/HP Dark/Water Pulse or Flash Cannon.
              #8    
            Old August 11th, 2011 (7:07 AM).
            Myzou's Avatar
            Myzou Myzou is offline
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              Vanilluxe's movepool is very odd.

              It can get Ice Shard and Water Pulse, but then it can't get Autotomize. The former 2 come from Glalie, wheras the latter comes from Steelix.

              So it's pretty much:

              Ice Beam
              Flash Cannon
              Autotomize/Water Pulse
              ???

              That's the only issue I have with Vanilluxe. I could go for like Swagger for a surprise, Or explosion for some oomph as a last resort.

              But then I have to think, Autotomize is awesome, but without Water Pulse, any fire or steel type will wall Vanilluxe, and fire back and kill it pretty simply. At least it stands a chance with Water Pulse.
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                #9    
              Old August 11th, 2011 (7:15 AM).
              Snorelacks
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                Yes, but you forgot about HP Dark, Ice Shard, and Icy Wind. So, there you have:

                Ice Shard/Icy Wind (Speed Move)
                Ice Beam/Blizzard (STAB Move)
                HP Dark (Coverage)
                Water Pulse (Coverage)

                So you can safely breed from Glalie and not have to worry about Autotomize. Unless, of course, you want it over Ice Shard/Icy Wind.
                  #10    
                Old August 11th, 2011 (9:20 AM). Edited August 11th, 2011 by FaWa.
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                FaWa FaWa is offline
                   
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                  Quote:
                  Originally Posted by Myzou View Post
                  Throh is actually quite amazing. o_o

                  Alomomola... not so much. XD
                  alol, whatever. You're loss.
                    #11    
                  Old August 12th, 2011 (1:38 AM). Edited August 12th, 2011 by PlatinumDude.
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                  PlatinumDude PlatinumDude is offline
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                  I think the above Vanilluxe set was taken from a VGC analysis (which may not work well in singles). HP Dark will leave you walled by Steels:
                  -Autotomize
                  -Ice Beam
                  -Water Pulse/Flash Cannon
                  -Hidden Power (Fire/Ground/Electric)
                  Nature: Modest
                  EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spe
                  Item: Life Orb/Leftovers
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                    #12    
                  Old August 12th, 2011 (4:11 AM).
                  Myzou's Avatar
                  Myzou Myzou is offline
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                    As I said before, Autotomize and Water Pulse/Ice Shard is an illegal moveset. :P

                    I'm currently testing Ice Beam, HP Dark, Water Pulse, and Flash Cannon.

                    Steel Types can still be hit by Water Pulse, and due to a large majority of steel types being part ground or rock, will get hit super effective by it.
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                      #13    
                    Old August 12th, 2011 (4:19 AM).
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                    PlatinumDude PlatinumDude is offline
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                    Quote:
                    Originally Posted by Myzou View Post
                    As I said before, Autotomize and Water Pulse/Ice Shard is an illegal moveset.

                    I'm currently testing Ice Beam, HP Dark, Water Pulse, and Flash Cannon.

                    Steel Types can still be hit by Water Pulse, and due to a large majority of steel types being part ground or rock, will get hit super effective by it.
                    Totally forgot.

                    Just so you know:
                    A supereffective Water Pulse will still do less than a STAB Ice Beam against Rock Pokemon (not Rock/Ground). Rock/Ground Pokemon still take tons of damage from Ice Beam regardless.

                    For HP Dark, it does a bit less to Ghosts and Darks than Ice Beam would, and it leaves you vulnerable to Steel Pokemon (with your current set). That was why I suggested HP (Ground), which hits Rock/Steel Pokemon hard too. Ice/Ground provide good coverage.

                    Flash Cannon doesn't offer a lot of coverage, but since Vanilluxe's movepool is pretty shallow, you'll have to make do with it.
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                      #14    
                    Old August 12th, 2011 (5:21 AM).
                    Myzou's Avatar
                    Myzou Myzou is offline
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                      I'm being walled completely by Water Types at the moment.

                      Resists Ice Beam, Flash Cannon, Water Pulse. Most I can do is pop HP Fighting on for neutral damage, but even then, I think Ice Beam would hit harder.
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                        #15    
                      Old August 12th, 2011 (11:56 AM).
                      Snorelacks
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                        Well, here are the damage calculations for Ice Beam.

                        Ice Beam vs. Weak to Ice=284 BP (Rounded Down)
                        Ice Beam vs. 1/2 to Ice=67 BP (Rounded Down)
                        Ice Beam vs. Neutral to Ice=142 BP (Rounded Down)
                        Ice Beam vs. 1/4 to Ice=35 BP (Rounded Down)
                        Ice Beam vs. 4x weak to Ice= 568 BP (Rounded Down)

                        So, looking at the bolded line, Water Pulse is inferior to Ice Beam for Steels and Steel/Grounds with its 60 Base Power (Dealing 60 BP Damage to Steels and 120 BP Damage to Steel/Grounds) but is superior for Fires and Steel/Rocks. Hidden Power Fire and Ground are superior for Steels not neutral to Ice, simply for having 140 BP as a supereffective hit.

                        So therefore Water Pulse is inferior to Hidden Power [Ground] and usually inferior to Hidden Power [Fire].

                        Blizzard/Ice Beam
                        Autotomize/Icy Wind
                        Hidden Power [Ground]
                        Flash Cannon?

                        Flash Cannon could now become inferior for only covering one extra type (fellow Ices) that is not excessively common. That also means there are some Pokemon that can still wall you. Bronzong, Walrein, Skarmory, EvioChansey, Blissey. Especially Bronzong, as it resist Ice Beam and Flash Cannon and is immune to HP ground, and can then hit back with a Gyro Ball.
                          #16    
                        Old August 13th, 2011 (4:03 AM). Edited August 13th, 2011 by Myzou.
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                        Myzou Myzou is offline
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                          I'm running a Choice Scarf on it currently. For the most part, I just stick with Ice Beam, honestly. Might try out an autotomize set instead of Water Pulse, but then there begs the question of item. Can't risk life orb, as chances are it wouldn't survive after the turn required to use autotomize.

                          Is there a reason to go with HP Ground over Fighting? You also have to take into account how many Steel/rock Types run the balloon, which in turn would not even affect them.

                          Fighting would allow me to hit Normals super effectively, Steel types also super effective, and steel/rock x4 effective, just like ground. It'd leave me open to no super effective vs Fire, but it'd also allow me to use water types for neutral damage as well.

                          EDIT: Fighting is actually doing a great job on things like Empoleon, that resist Ice 4x, and would only be hit neutrally by Ground. Also 2HKOd an Arcanine that tried to take me out with ExtremeSpeed (due to autotomize).

                          However, on Normal Types, I know Ice Beam would be better. (142 Ice Beam BP compared to 140 HP Fighting).
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