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  #26    
Old December 18th, 2011 (10:57 AM).
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Scarf View Post
    I think some of the problem is that we're talking about certain aspects of it and not others. Yeah, you can see a lot of young boys boasting about their exploits, but how many people would feel comfortable talking about feeling like someone took advantage of them? How often do boys get together and tell each other to remember to get consent before having sex? To use protection every time? To ask partners to get tested?

    These aren't rhetorical questions, btw. I'm just saying that as much as sex is an open topic there are still big gaps in what's talked about.
    Not to mention if the party members actually ask "have you been tested?" or ask to see proof of the matter before the act.
    Sex is a vulnerable position. There are lots of concerns to be brought up. I'm not saying this adds to the taboo-ness to it, but rather that it can get complicated rather than just being something instinctual.
    But the points you bring up are very true, in my opinion.
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      #27    
    Old December 18th, 2011 (11:39 AM).
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      Quote:
      Originally Posted by Scarf View Post
      I think some of the problem is that we're talking about certain aspects of it and not others. Yeah, you can see a lot of young boys boasting about their exploits, but how many people would feel comfortable talking about feeling like someone took advantage of them? How often do boys get together and tell each other to remember to get consent before having sex? To use protection every time? To ask partners to get tested?
      You sort of answered your own question a bit there. "a lot of young boys", the same reason young boys don't talk about many topics sincerely or seriously, they want to look cool. You don't get them saying "I think we've had enough to drink, lets stop" not because alcohol is taboo, because they're going to get laughed at.

      A lot of girls on the other hand will often talk about things you listed.
        #28    
      Old December 18th, 2011 (2:41 PM).
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      I'm going to take a dangerous position on this. Sure hope it doesn't screw me over when I'm trying to get a job in the future, but I think it needs to be said.

      Age of consent should be abolished. Here's what I think we should do: replace it with some sort of "sex permit." Once you're 18 (or at whatever point most people are out of puberty by), you don't need one, but if you want to have sex before then, you need to undergo a psychological evaluation or something (not face-to-face so as to avoid bias on the part of the examiner). If you're deemed mature enough to handle it, then you're granted the permit. If you get caught doing it without a license, you and your partner are required to do community service.

      Quote:
      Originally Posted by Castgurl View Post
      Now to the Legal age of consent part.I'm glad that this exists. I understand that two people fall in love and blah blah blah, but like I stated above (and sorry, but that's my view from that comment.) Do we really want that going on? I sure don't.
      Why not?

      Quote:
      It's just like Penatrait said in a earlier post. Don't need to repeat it here on mine.
      As far as I can tell, he said the law should exist because we need laws. That's circular reasoning, and if it's your only justification, you have no argument.

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      The much younger folks (no disrespect for those around that age range here) just can't comprehend the complexities of not only the act itself but what and how they feel afterwards.
      It feels good. Simple as that. Anything else is just what you're bringing to the table. There are plenty of people who just have sex because it feels good. If you want to make it about love or companionship or commitment, good for you. If it's so complex, why don't you try backing that ridiculous claim (which I hear often, so don't feel bad) up with some reasoning as to why it's complex?

      I also find it interesting that you're saying sex is complex and yet you demean the significance of love in the first three sentences of this paragraph.

      Quote:
      And the same towards that person. They lose their innocence and more. We all do at some point, but sometimes, it should just be held off a bit longer.
      If they're seeking sex on their own, they're past that point already.

      Quote:
      Again, it's there for a reason. I don't know about you, but I'm cool with it. 100%. And should remain that way.
      It's there because people think we need arbitrary lines for everything and don't bother looking for a better solution and also because parents don't want their precious little flowers... well, deflowered. The minimum drinking age is asinine for pretty much the same reason; there are problems with making it lower, but nobody's bothering to look for a better solution because our current one works "well enough."

      There's a lot of bias from the legislators here because most of them are parents. Parents approach issues like this from the point of a parent, not from the point of the kid. This is yet another reason our legal system is flawed: we need people in there who can actually represent the issues of younger people and minimum age requirements as a requirement for election hampers that.
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        #29    
      Old December 18th, 2011 (3:05 PM).
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        Quote:
        Originally Posted by twocows View Post
        It feels good. Simple as that. Anything else is just what you're bringing to the table. There are plenty of people who just have sex because it feels good. If you want to make it about love or companionship or commitment, good for you. If it's so complex, why don't you try backing that ridiculous claim (which I hear often, so don't feel bad) up with some reasoning as to why it's complex?
        No offense, but I personally felt that this statement was pretty demeaning with the way you stated that the other opinion was "a ridiculous claim" instead of trying to consider first why it may be seen as complex.

        I, for one, personally think sex is really complex. For example, there are women who don't get any pleasure with vaginal simulation.. so how could it really be "fun" for them? With sex there are things that some people find more appealing than others things.. kinks, personal boundaries, pleasure spots, confidence, and the list really goes on. Even within the vaginal or penis areas, there are glands and spots that some people respond to more than others. Some people can't be touched on their clitoris, for example, because they are so sensitive that it becomes painful. Even with men and the urethra, the same can happen. Now it's complex when you bring in the things Scarf says about the whole "silence means yes" but it's another thing if you're going in to touch someone thinking that it'll be good and they give out a yelp of pain or discomfort.

        Now this whole scenario is NOT taking into account using the act of sex as a way to bond.. and already there is quite a lot of complexity. If you need me to further explain more ways where it could be complex, I will be happy to do so, but for now I hope that can at least make a point to you and to show and explain that it's not such a ridiculous claim, really.
          #30    
        Old December 18th, 2011 (7:38 PM).
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        Originally Posted by Kura View Post
        No offense, but I personally felt that this statement was pretty demeaning with the way you stated that the other opinion was "a ridiculous claim" instead of trying to consider first why it may be seen as complex.
        He/she said it was complex without making any justification for that claim. It's not my job to try to figure out why his or her bogus claim isn't bogus. You make a point, you argue the point, you don't leave it for the opposing side to try to figure out.

        Quote:
        I, for one, personally think sex is really complex. For example, there are women who don't get any pleasure with vaginal simulation.. so how could it really be "fun" for them? With sex there are things that some people find more appealing than others things.. kinks, personal boundaries, pleasure spots, confidence, and the list really goes on. Even within the vaginal or penis areas, there are glands and spots that some people respond to more than others. Some people can't be touched on their clitoris, for example, because they are so sensitive that it becomes painful. Even with men and the urethra, the same can happen. Now it's complex when you bring in the things Scarf says about the whole "silence means yes" but it's another thing if you're going in to touch someone thinking that it'll be good and they give out a yelp of pain or discomfort.

        Now this whole scenario is NOT taking into account using the act of sex as a way to bond.. and already there is quite a lot of complexity. If you need me to further explain more ways where it could be complex, I will be happy to do so, but for now I hope that can at least make a point to you and to show and explain that it's not such a ridiculous claim, really.
        That's all stuff you brought to the table, it's not inherent in the act, which was my point. There's no reason you need a high level of intellect to do something that feels good to start with. And if it doesn't, they probably wouldn't be doing it anyway unless they had other reasons (such as the ones you gave). Remember, this is in the context of age of consent.
          #31    
        Old December 19th, 2011 (4:22 AM).
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        It has been interesting to read all these differing perspectives, obviously from different people, and completely different stages of their life. I agree with the idea that sex is complex. In my experience, it makes life a lot more complicated then not having sex... not just because of the act itself, but because a lot of the time, of the ramifications that follow. I'm not just talking about STDs or pregnancy. I'm talking about responses from your peers. Whether it be judgement, jealously or just generally juvenile reactions.

        I know if I have children, I am going to try my hardest to ensure that they don't have sex until they are at a socially acceptable age, and also that they are fully comfortable and able to deal with the entire concept. I miss the innocence of my youth, the uncomplicated, simple viewpoints. If I have children, I want that innocence prolonged as long as possible, because it only exists once (senile old age excluded). I believe sex is an important factor in creating complications, it requires a situation of innocence confronting the adult world. As a parent, I can only assume I would want to shelter my child as long as possible- it would be an instinctual response.
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          #32    
        Old December 25th, 2011 (10:34 AM).
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          Quote:
          Originally Posted by twocows View Post
          He/she said it was complex without making any justification for that claim. It's not my job to try to figure out why his or her bogus claim isn't bogus. You make a point, you argue the point, you don't leave it for the opposing side to try to figure out.


          That's all stuff you brought to the table, it's not inherent in the act, which was my point. There's no reason you need a high level of intellect to do something that feels good to start with. And if it doesn't, they probably wouldn't be doing it anyway unless they had other reasons (such as the ones you gave). Remember, this is in the context of age of consent.
          I don't understand how you think sex ISN'T complex. Please explain that to me.

          I don't know if you're referring to the motion of sex? If so.. even that is still very complex. I'm not just talking about angles of penetration. Even people get different feelings with different partners just because their body may respond more to a "healthy girl/boy" rather than an unhealthy one, because of pheromones released in the air and the way the body will naturally react to that.
          And the fact that it would take more than one time with a person to truly see if sex with them is a good feeling, because by that time you are experienced with their body and you are willing to open up more.

          Other than that, I personally thought that it was a given that sex is a very complex thing in general. I didn' think it was a point to argue because it was so widely accepted. To call something, by standard definition in my eyes, bogus, is quite confusing to me.
          Care to explain? I'm just curious as to how you see it, if you don't mind me asking.
            #33    
          Old December 25th, 2011 (10:43 AM).
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          The complexity of sex is circumstantial. Coming from a person who has sex frequently, but in a strong and close relationship; I do not find sex to be a complex entity. But if I were to have sex with a stranger there would be a lot more things I would need to consider. However I believe that so long as you're using protection, it eliminates a lot of factors that could potentially create a more difficult situation in regards to how straight forward the act will be.
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            #34    
          Old December 25th, 2011 (11:43 AM).
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            Quote:
            Originally Posted by Abnegation View Post
            The complexity of sex is circumstantial. Coming from a person who has sex frequently, but in a strong and close relationship; I do not find sex to be a complex entity. But if I were to have sex with a stranger there would be a lot more things I would need to consider. However I believe that so long as you're using protection, it eliminates a lot of factors that could potentially create a more difficult situation in regards to how straight forward the act will be.
            I can understand how sex would be considerably less complex with a close and frequent partner, but I still think it's complex- especially when breaching subjects that would be more to do with unexplored kinks, or wanting to try something new. Not to mention the fact that the addition of sex in an already close relationship does give that relationship a whole new level of meaning. Sex becomes a way to soothe and de-stress for some, but for others may be a way to avoid a topic. You may know then that a "Silent yes" really is just that and not secretly a "no but I don't want to disappoint" when you're at that point, and you wont have to focus on the "maybe they don't like it that way" anymore. But if you talk about it and are on common ground, then yes, the sex is considerably less complex, yet it is only that way because you have already gone through the complex bits of it, such as teaching your partner what you like, and now understand each other mutually during the act.
              #35    
            Old December 25th, 2011 (8:37 PM).
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            Originally Posted by Kura View Post
            I don't understand how you think sex ISN'T complex. Please explain that to me.

            I don't know if you're referring to the motion of sex? If so.. even that is still very complex. I'm not just talking about angles of penetration. Even people get different feelings with different partners just because their body may respond more to a "healthy girl/boy" rather than an unhealthy one, because of pheromones released in the air and the way the body will naturally react to that.
            And the fact that it would take more than one time with a person to truly see if sex with them is a good feeling, because by that time you are experienced with their body and you are willing to open up more.

            Other than that, I personally thought that it was a given that sex is a very complex thing in general. I didn' think it was a point to argue because it was so widely accepted. To call something, by standard definition in my eyes, bogus, is quite confusing to me.
            Care to explain? I'm just curious as to how you see it, if you don't mind me asking.
            I'm not talking about the motion and humans do not produce pheromones. The point people are making is that it is too emotionally or intellectually complex for a young teenager to understand. And it's not, at least not necessarily. It can mean a lot of things to a lot of people, but to plenty of us, it's just something that tends to feel good.

            The point I'm making is that there's no reason a teen shouldn't be able to enter into a consensual sexual relationship with someone older than them. They're not "too immature to understand it;" they get it perfectly well.

            If it's so complex that younger folk can't handle it, I think you should explain why they can't handle it.
              #36    
            Old December 25th, 2011 (9:42 PM).
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              Adding to the discussion of sex being complex or not, I would say it has more impact on our lives than we realize. For other species, sex is a means for reproduction. For humans, it affects relationships whether it be good, bad, or neither (among more than just two people), if a child is conceived there are numerous complicating issues, it can affect our mood and anxiety levels, there are issues of consent and legalities, there are body image and performance issues and insecurities, and the list goes on and on. We are not conscientious of the many complexities of sex. Almost all of the simple things of life impact us more than we know.
                #37    
              Old December 25th, 2011 (9:59 PM).
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              I think something that needs to be considered as well is that it's none of our business. I personally believe that it's not that complex a situation and that we underestimate how much younger people can understand and handle, but you know what? There's a chance I'm wrong. But in the end what I or anybody else thinks shouldn't matter. Who are we to say what other people can handle? Who are we to make laws that tell other people what they can and cannot do based on what we believe? This is pretty much society's number one problem.

              I'm sure there are specific cases where younger people are unable to handle these supposed complexities that sex represents. But that's not true of everybody, so who are we to create a law on behalf of them all? If young people are incapable of dealing with sex, then the absence of a law doesn't mean they are forced to have sex. If there's ever a situation where there's a choice between implementing a restrictive law and not implementing a restrictive law, I believe we should always err on the side of not. Because it's quite simply none of our business.
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                #38    
              Old December 25th, 2011 (10:06 PM).
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              We are born through sex, so whats wrong with it?

              Absolutely nothing.
                #39    
              Old December 26th, 2011 (5:40 AM). Edited December 26th, 2011 by Kura.
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                Quote:
                Originally Posted by twocows View Post
                I'm not talking about the motion and humans do not produce pheromones. The point people are making is that it is too emotionally or intellectually complex for a young teenager to understand. And it's not, at least not necessarily. It can mean a lot of things to a lot of people, but to plenty of us, it's just something that tends to feel good.

                The point I'm making is that there's no reason a teen shouldn't be able to enter into a consensual sexual relationship with someone older than them. They're not "too immature to understand it;" they get it perfectly well.

                If it's so complex that younger folk can't handle it, I think you should explain why they can't handle it.
                I agree with you on the fact that younger teenagers can handle sex, yes. I don't think of young people as being lesser than older folks.. but I think they are also less unable to handle consequences (broken condom, breakup, etc) than of an older, more mature person. I do wish that younger teens were allowed to have the birth control pill, but oftentimes that's not the case because their bodies are still growing and the pill may affect growth, so they wouldn't have to worry as much over one consequence.. because accidental pregnancies are a difficult thing to handle no matter how old you are.

                But I don't know about you, but ten or 8 years ago when I was 12 or 14.. I really wouldn't want myself having sex back then because I really don't know about it in the way I do now. Maybe sex becomes more complex as you get older? I don't know. I was chatting with a friend who's 30 about it just to get his opinion. He's non religious and believes that sex is even more complex than what I think it is. It's interesting to get that viewpoint. Maybe it really does get more complex the more you experience in the world.


                Personally, I don't condone younger people having sex because many may think they're mature when most are not.. and they only come to realize that a couple years later, but at the same time I wouldn't stop them from doing it if it's consensual. I just hope in the future there is more support for them if they do find it (or its consequences) to be too complex.. and oftentimes there isn't good counseling for them because they are automatically frowned down upon.. and they really really shouldn't be. Kids need better sex education. Young teens need more freedom. If they are going to have sex they should be able to buy condoms without worrying of judgement.


                You say it's primarily to feel good.. and that's where I want to raise a bit of an objection. It's easy for a boy to go through the motions and feel good, but it's not necessarily the same for the girl unless she's 100% willing and ready. Oftentimes if a 11-14 girl isn't, and will have at least some doubts, there is a strong possibility that sex with hurt for her. If she's not aroused enough, the vagina wont elongate enough, and the guy will hit her cervix. That's painful. If she's a virgin, hymen breakage is also painful. Where's the "feel good" in that? For the guy it's fun and games and it'll feel good, but for a girl it might not be so simple unless she's ACTUALLY truly ready for it. I am not sure you are taking everything into account.. but sure young teenages CAN understand the complexities of sex, yes. But can they always handle the implications..? I don't necessarily think so. But either way, having a law is a bit silly. The government has no place in the bedroom of its citizens.

                You say it's not that complex that they can't handle it.. but you're not saying anything else to "back yourself up" about why you think that's true. The basic "to feel good" is just the icing on a very large cake, to me. You told ME to explain WHY they can't handle it, and I did twice. Now I ask you WHY you think that they can? You're just throwing claims at me. Shining Raichu did put it nicely himself, and he was making the same point that you are. However, I'm curious as to why you think this is the case. (Laws aside)

                (I hope I'm not sounding rude with this last sentence.. but you asked me why and I delivered.. so I guess it's fair to ask YOU why, too.) :33
                  #40    
                Old December 26th, 2011 (6:43 AM).
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                Originally Posted by Shining Raichu View Post
                I think something that needs to be considered as well is that it's none of our business. I personally believe that it's not that complex a situation and that we underestimate how much younger people can understand and handle, but you know what? There's a chance I'm wrong. But in the end what I or anybody else thinks shouldn't matter. Who are we to say what other people can handle? Who are we to make laws that tell other people what they can and cannot do based on what we believe? This is pretty much society's number one problem.

                I'm sure there are specific cases where younger people are unable to handle these supposed complexities that sex represents. But that's not true of everybody, so who are we to create a law on behalf of them all? If young people are incapable of dealing with sex, then the absence of a law doesn't mean they are forced to have sex. If there's ever a situation where there's a choice between implementing a restrictive law and not implementing a restrictive law, I believe we should always err on the side of not. Because it's quite simply none of our business.
                I guess teenage pregnancy (just one example of consequences of having sex in earlier ages) is not a complex situation, after all.

                From my personal experience, I'd definitely say that a normal 13-14 year old teenager can't take sex seriously. When I was in sex ed portion of health class, when the teacher showed us a picture of... *youknow*, everybody in the class giggled, and teacher had to warn us multiple times to get us to stop.
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                Old December 26th, 2011 (9:02 PM).
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                  It's not as much of a "secret" topic as it used to be. I think that it's very immature to see sex as "gross". I guess it's just a more controversial topic because religion has so many rules about it and people are still religious. It's also taboo to talk about politics.

                  But really I think it all depends on the people you're around. My friends and I don't mind talking about sex openly when the topic comes around for example where as some people think it's forbidden to talk about.
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                  Old December 26th, 2011 (10:30 PM).
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                  Quote:
                  Originally Posted by Kura View Post
                  I agree with you on the fact that younger teenagers can handle sex, yes. I don't think of young people as being lesser than older folks.. but I think they are also less unable to handle consequences (broken condom, breakup, etc) than of an older, more mature person. I do wish that younger teens were allowed to have the birth control pill, but oftentimes that's not the case because their bodies are still growing and the pill may affect growth, so they wouldn't have to worry as much over one consequence.. because accidental pregnancies are a difficult thing to handle no matter how old you are.

                  But I don't know about you, but ten or 8 years ago when I was 12 or 14.. I really wouldn't want myself having sex back then because I really don't know about it in the way I do now. Maybe sex becomes more complex as you get older? I don't know. I was chatting with a friend who's 30 about it just to get his opinion. He's non religious and believes that sex is even more complex than what I think it is. It's interesting to get that viewpoint. Maybe it really does get more complex the more you experience in the world.


                  Personally, I don't condone younger people having sex because many may think they're mature when most are not.. and they only come to realize that a couple years later, but at the same time I wouldn't stop them from doing it if it's consensual. I just hope in the future there is more support for them if they do find it (or its consequences) to be too complex.. and oftentimes there isn't good counseling for them because they are automatically frowned down upon.. and they really really shouldn't be. Kids need better sex education. Young teens need more freedom. If they are going to have sex they should be able to buy condoms without worrying of judgement.


                  You say it's primarily to feel good.. and that's where I want to raise a bit of an objection. It's easy for a boy to go through the motions and feel good, but it's not necessarily the same for the girl unless she's 100% willing and ready. Oftentimes if a 11-14 girl isn't, and will have at least some doubts, there is a strong possibility that sex with hurt for her. If she's not aroused enough, the vagina wont elongate enough, and the guy will hit her cervix. That's painful. If she's a virgin, hymen breakage is also painful. Where's the "feel good" in that? For the guy it's fun and games and it'll feel good, but for a girl it might not be so simple unless she's ACTUALLY truly ready for it. I am not sure you are taking everything into account.. but sure young teenages CAN understand the complexities of sex, yes. But can they always handle the implications..? I don't necessarily think so. But either way, having a law is a bit silly. The government has no place in the bedroom of its citizens.

                  You say it's not that complex that they can't handle it.. but you're not saying anything else to "back yourself up" about why you think that's true. The basic "to feel good" is just the icing on a very large cake, to me. You told ME to explain WHY they can't handle it, and I did twice. Now I ask you WHY you think that they can? You're just throwing claims at me. Shining Raichu did put it nicely himself, and he was making the same point that you are. However, I'm curious as to why you think this is the case. (Laws aside)

                  (I hope I'm not sounding rude with this last sentence.. but you asked me why and I delivered.. so I guess it's fair to ask YOU why, too.) :33
                  Sure, there are girls that aren't ready for it. My point is that the ones who seek it out are probably ready. See my earlier post where I said kids under 16 or so should have to apply for a permit; they wouldn't seek out a permit if they didn't actively want to have sex.
                    #43    
                  Old December 26th, 2011 (11:39 PM).
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                    Quote:
                    Originally Posted by twocows View Post
                    Sure, there are girls that aren't ready for it. My point is that the ones who seek it out are probably ready. See my earlier post where I said kids under 16 or so should have to apply for a permit; they wouldn't seek out a permit if they didn't actively want to have sex.
                    Lol a permit to have sex? That's ridiculous.
                      #44    
                    Old December 27th, 2011 (12:19 AM).
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                    Originally Posted by MissDigitalis View Post
                    Lol a permit to have sex? That's ridiculous.
                    Perhaps you could explain why it's ridiculous? I already justified my idea earlier. If you think my idea is a poor one, go through my earlier post and tell me why it is.
                      #45    
                    Old December 27th, 2011 (12:38 AM).
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                      Quote:
                      Originally Posted by twocows View Post
                      I'm going to take a dangerous position on this. Sure hope it doesn't screw me over when I'm trying to get a job in the future, but I think it needs to be said.

                      Age of consent should be abolished. Here's what I think we should do: replace it with some sort of "sex permit." Once you're 18 (or at whatever point most people are out of puberty by), you don't need one, but if you want to have sex before then, you need to undergo a psychological evaluation or something (not face-to-face so as to avoid bias on the part of the examiner). If you're deemed mature enough to handle it, then you're granted the permit. If you get caught doing it without a license, you and your partner are required to do community service.
                      People are just going to be more sneaky about it. It's not like it's a public act in most cases anyway. Age of consent is in place for a good reason. The bodies of female children are not ready for childbirth and they probably couldn't handle a baby on their own anyway and would need the help of their own parents. Community service isn't a bad punishment for people having consensual sex under the age though. It's better than being on a list as a sex offender. But seriously here, you can't expect people to apply for a permit to have sex as a kid. Who's going to drive them to the office to get the paper work? Their parents? Yeah right. Besides, there could be people who could actually force kids to get a sex permit so that it wouldn't be considered as bad when they make them prostitute themselves.
                        #46    
                      Old December 27th, 2011 (1:43 AM).
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                      Quote:
                      Originally Posted by twocows View Post
                      Sure, there are girls that aren't ready for it. My point is that the ones who seek it out are probably ready. See my earlier post where I said kids under 16 or so should have to apply for a permit; they wouldn't seek out a permit if they didn't actively want to have sex.
                      Desiring sex isn't the same thing as being ready to have sex. I can be, but it isn't a direct consequence.

                      Let me give an example. A friend of mine has a younger sister (around 14) who understood that if she batted her eyes at men and wore her short skirts and so on that she'd get their attention. She knew what sex was, but did not know that what she did could be perceived as a sexual advance even when she did not mean it to be. That's a danger all by itself. Coupled with the fact that she was flirting with men who were older than her (where there potential for a power imbalance is greater) it meant, to me, that she was not ready for sex. My friend thought so too, so he tried to sit her down and talk to her so she'd know how to keep herself safe.

                      I understand that at some point you have to just jump in with whatever knowledge and preparation you have, but I think age of consent laws and the like are in place to give people the chance to make sure they are ready enough. That people who are ready are prevented from having sex (legally, at least) is unfortunate, but I believe that there would be more harm done if people who were unprepared are taken advantage of and/or make mistakes that could have been avoided if they'd had more time/knowledge/maturity.
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                        #47    
                      Old December 27th, 2011 (4:43 AM).
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                        Scarf stole the words right from my mouth!

                        But yeah.. it's essentially that. That's also a part that makes sex a complex, too. Twocows, I'm wondering, since you didn't touch upon it in your response, why you think sex ISN'T complex? Not "isn't complex that teenagers can't understand it" but.. what are those complexities that you think they CAN understand and handle? Are there any complexities that you think they can't handle? That was more what I was asking.. sorry if the wordiness earlier lead you in a different direction with your response ;o;!
                          #48    
                        Old December 27th, 2011 (9:32 PM).
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                        Quote:
                        Originally Posted by MissDigitalis View Post
                        People are just going to be more sneaky about it. It's not like it's a public act in most cases anyway. Age of consent is in place for a good reason. The bodies of female children are not ready for childbirth and they probably couldn't handle a baby on their own anyway and would need the help of their own parents. Community service isn't a bad punishment for people having consensual sex under the age though. It's better than being on a list as a sex offender. But seriously here, you can't expect people to apply for a permit to have sex as a kid. Who's going to drive them to the office to get the paper work? Their parents? Yeah right. Besides, there could be people who could actually force kids to get a sex permit so that it wouldn't be considered as bad when they make them prostitute themselves.
                        Who said anything about childbirth? Sex doesn't have to be for childbirth, you know. I'd be fine with making a requirement of such a permit be "you are required to use contraception." And I'm sure they could just walk to the city office or catch a ride with a friend or something, it's not that hard to get around. My parents had to walk a couple of miles to get to school every morning; kids these days could do with the exercise.

                        As for people forcing that, that would still be considered rape or prostitution. There are already laws about things like that.

                        Quote:
                        Originally Posted by Scarf View Post
                        Desiring sex isn't the same thing as being ready to have sex. I can be, but it isn't a direct consequence.

                        Let me give an example. A friend of mine has a younger sister (around 14) who understood that if she batted her eyes at men and wore her short skirts and so on that she'd get their attention. She knew what sex was, but did not know that what she did could be perceived as a sexual advance even when she did not mean it to be. That's a danger all by itself. Coupled with the fact that she was flirting with men who were older than her (where there potential for a power imbalance is greater) it meant, to me, that she was not ready for sex. My friend thought so too, so he tried to sit her down and talk to her so she'd know how to keep herself safe.
                        That'd take 15 minutes to solve, tops, and it could be a requirement of the "permit" I talked about earlier.

                        Quote:
                        I understand that at some point you have to just jump in with whatever knowledge and preparation you have, but I think age of consent laws and the like are in place to give people the chance to make sure they are ready enough.
                        The whole problem with age of consent is that it's arbitrary and causes more problems than it solves. People are ready at different times; making an absolute cutoff for age of consent is just asinine. I'm proposing a way to fix the problems with it.

                        Quote:
                        That people who are ready are prevented from having sex (legally, at least) is unfortunate, but I believe that there would be more harm done if people who were unprepared are taken advantage of and/or make mistakes that could have been avoided if they'd had more time/knowledge/maturity.
                        I believe my solution would solve both sets of problems.

                        Quote:
                        Originally Posted by Kura View Post
                        Scarf stole the words right from my mouth!

                        But yeah.. it's essentially that. That's also a part that makes sex a complex, too. Twocows, I'm wondering, since you didn't touch upon it in your response, why you think sex ISN'T complex? Not "isn't complex that teenagers can't understand it" but.. what are those complexities that you think they CAN understand and handle? Are there any complexities that you think they can't handle? That was more what I was asking.. sorry if the wordiness earlier lead you in a different direction with your response ;o;!
                        Enumerate the "complexities" you're talking about and I'll go through and say what I think about each.
                          #49    
                        Old December 28th, 2011 (11:34 PM).
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                        Quote:
                        Originally Posted by twocows View Post
                        Enumerate the "complexities" you're talking about and I'll go through and say what I think about each.
                        If I may step in and give one: consent.

                        Consent doesn't have to be a complex issue, but it can be tricky sometimes. First, there is basic ignorance around the topic. Some people don't understand that a person who is intoxicated or unconscious can't give consent. Then there are instances where how consenting a person is changes over the course of an encounter. On the whole topic of people having sex when they don't want to you have instances where someone may not necessarily want to have sex or want to as often as their partner but may feel they have to in order to maintain the relationship. In a case like the last example you're talking about all kinds of power dynamics through a prism of sex.

                        The point is that it's important that someone knows how to navigate through these potential issues or else you risk someone being taken advantage of over misunderstandings and miscommunication (or worse, from a willful act). Or someone could get their feelings hurt, which isn't as serious, but it's still worth consideration. It's complex because you can't be taught how to do all that.
                          #50    
                        Old December 29th, 2011 (7:09 PM).
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                          Quote:
                          Originally Posted by twocows View Post
                          Enumerate the "complexities" you're talking about and I'll go through and say what I think about each.
                          Honestly.. that's a confusing question for me.. like.. what isn't complex? The physical motions of sex? It's still complex to me, like I said. Arousal, mutual desire, confidence, peer pressure, pain, consequences, consent, anxiety, body image, the social aspect of sex such as rumors, etc. god the list goes on.. rather.. what do you think ISN'T complex so I can try to understand you.

                          Either way I don't know how someone else can deem you mature or not for a permit. I mean.. even with physical checkups, doctors diagnose you with different things with the same symptoms.. and psychologists are expensive. What kid at 13/14 will have that sort of money for a psychological evaluation and then spend more money to get the permit filed and printed? How is that feasible? I get that it has good intentions in that you may be screening people who are ready.. but how could you control people who don't have permits from having sex?

                          Quote:
                          And I'm sure they could just walk to the city office or catch a ride with a friend or something, it's not that hard to get around.
                          Well.. you're not really considering a lot of places. For me to have driven from my old house to downtown Toronto (where I would most likely have to file the paperwork) takes only half an hour. But to walk.. would take about a day and a half to two days.. because of the motorway.

                          But let's say you can file it at a drug store. Ok.. well what about places like West Virginia? Arizona? Yeah.. walk through the desert or through the mountains.

                          That would be quite hard to get around. I dont think anyone wants their 10 year old boy or girl walking through a forest or on the side of the highway by themselves. Sorry.. ;o;
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