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  #26    
Old March 2nd, 2013 (4:08 PM). Edited March 2nd, 2013 by Toutebelle.
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TRIFORCE89 View Post
    Another one that irked me was those Jacqueline Kennedy interviews that surfaced a few years back. She clearly loved her husband, but she mentioned so much about permission and fearing what he would think and letting him "misbehave" because its what he wants. And just him him him. Never her. She was never first or equal. It was weird. Especially coming from her since we kind of look at her today as this feminist role model.
    I never considered Jackie Kennedy a feminist - in fact, she was very much a product of her time. She actually called her marriage "Asiatic", playing into a racist stereotype of Asian women as submissive, plus she looked down on Martin Luther King because of his race. I find it weird because she wasn't even that old - I know women born before her who do not ascribe to such beliefs. It really puts her in contrast to Eleanor Roosevelt, who was a woman far ahead of her time. Then again, Jackie Kennedy had a rather sheltered lifestyle due to being born super rich (the Bouviers are an old money family - they've been wealthy MUCH longer than the Kennedys). I'll still think of Jackie Kennedy as a great fashion icon, but she wasn't a feminist.

    I admit the reveal of Jackie Kennedy's outdated views felt terrible for me. But I moved on from it. Then again, some of the great women in our history had terrible flaws. Take Margaret Sanger, for example. She was an outspoken eugenicist who targeted blacks and Catholics with her birth control programs. It's the same as realizing that Thomas Jefferson had a young slave mistress or that Henry Ford was pro-Nazi.

    And those lame 50s shows...they're so bad that the name of June Cleaver (the mom from Leave it to Beaver) has entered my lexicon as a synonym for women who are willingly submissive to their husbands. A good example of a woman like that would be Michelle Duggar.
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      #27    
    Old March 2nd, 2013 (11:17 PM).
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    Originally Posted by Mr. X View Post
    Spoiler:
    That last one is hopefully starting to be looked into:

    Compulsive Liar Jailed After 11 False Rape Claims In A Decade
    If you're a real feminist, you should be ashamed of this woman.

    Oh, and here's a conversation I had with a friend of mine about this. It's more sarcastic than anything, but I know someone is going to get mad at it anyway, so meh:

    Spoiler:
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      #28    
    Old March 3rd, 2013 (9:36 AM).
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    Originally Posted by CarcharOdin View Post
    Compulsive Liar Jailed After 11 False Rape Claims In A Decade
    If you're a real feminist, you should be ashamed of this woman.
    Of course. Why would you think otherwise? Not only is it just wrong for the people involved, it helps perpetuate misconceptions about rape, a.k.a. that women falsely claim rape all over the place. With the internet the way it is, single instances like this end up heard about by thousands of people who will conclude this is common.
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      #29    
    Old March 4th, 2013 (12:53 PM). Edited March 4th, 2013 by roosterman.
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      Originally Posted by Skinwalker213 View Post
      Feminism's goals have been long accomplished, yet there are still people claiming it didn't. Equality is never going to happen, let's face the fact that we are never going to treat both genders the same. I do, though, think that gender shouldn't play a role in professional situations such as court. Even though they aren't allowed to discriminate against a certain gender,race, etc., females get easier punishments than males.
      true that. i read a news story the other day about a "rare female execution" i don't remember where it was but apparently she was (i think) the 4th female on death row while there were hundreds of males. at this point there really isn't equal rights anywhere. there are all those countries where the women have no rights, and here in america its looking like the females rule it (i don't care if all the presidents are male. most of my female friends and family voted for the males anyway just cause they thought they had better ideas. its not like the president can change things that much anyway.)
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        #30    
      Old March 6th, 2013 (4:32 PM).
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      I really don't like the whole "OMG HE OPENED THE DOOR FOR ME HE IS SO RUDE. I AM A STRONG AND INDEPENDENT WOMAN I CAN OPEN THINGS FOR MYSELF" approach to feminism. I think women and men who have the same strengths should be able to get the same jobs and respect yes. But really there is no need.

      I do dislike the men who think the only purpose of a woman is to make them food and clean though. That isn't fair.
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        #31    
      Old March 12th, 2013 (9:56 AM).
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      Originally Posted by Skinwalker213 View Post
      Feminism's goals have been long accomplished, yet there are still people claiming it didn't. Equality is never going to happen, let's face the fact that we are never going to treat both genders the same. I do, though, think that gender shouldn't play a role in professional situations such as court. Even though they aren't allowed to discriminate against a certain gender,race, etc., females get easier punishments than males.
      Feminism's goals are far from accomplished, the gender disparity is still a huge issue, especially in the workplace still. And just because the goal may "never happen", that doesn't mean we should throw in the towel and let disenfranchisement happen. It's about fighting social injustices to the best of our ability.
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        #32    
      Old March 12th, 2013 (10:34 AM).
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      Im all for equality for women, being one myself. I dont agree with really radical feminism but I can admit that things are better for women where I live then they once were. I enjoy the fact that I can pretty much do what I please in life and have the freedoms I have and know that if I lived in a different time, I would likely not have those choices. I do agree that it's not perfect and there is still some inequality and double standards though.
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        #33    
      Old March 17th, 2013 (4:10 PM).
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      I'm fine with feminism, just not radical feminism.

      But for the most part, it has achieved most of what it intended to achieve, and most of the things it didn't achieve are coming along well, even if not as quickly as some wish.
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        #34    
      Old March 17th, 2013 (4:52 PM).
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        I support equality in the justice system and workplace, just as anybody should.

        Not a fan of sexism within feminism; the obvious slander of men when it's not needed; and then the less obvious slander of traditional female roles. There is no shame in aspiring to be a mother or homemaker; you don't have to be working in an office to be a respectable woman.
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          #35    
        Old March 17th, 2013 (9:02 PM).
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        I feel like the term "radical feminism" is stupid. I don't see people supporting equal rights going around and blowing up buildings like we would equate other radical movements to be.
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          #36    
        Old March 18th, 2013 (12:35 AM).
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        When I looked at this I thought the real F word.

        Just my two cents worth, feminism is over-rated and if woman wanted more feminism in the world I guess that would have been done already AND that could be a very good thing for the Earth.
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          #37    
        Old March 18th, 2013 (10:44 AM).
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        Originally Posted by Pichu2Pikachu2Raichu View Post
        When I looked at this I thought the real F word.

        Just my two cents worth, feminism is over-rated and if woman wanted more feminism in the world I guess that would have been done already AND that could be a very good thing for the Earth.
        No. Femnists are trying their hardest but there's still stuff like this happening in the world. Everyone is trying; it's not done because they haven't accomplished their goals yet. That goes for everyone who said "Feminism accomplished its goals lololol"
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          #38    
        Old March 18th, 2013 (12:39 PM).
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        Quote:
        Originally Posted by Pichu2Pikachu2Raichu View Post
        When I looked at this I thought the real F word.

        Just my two cents worth, feminism is over-rated and if woman wanted more feminism in the world I guess that would have been done already AND that could be a very good thing for the Earth.
        Overrated? what? No. Women around the world want rights and to be equal but it's a tough fight for them in some places in the world. They are trying hard, it isnt a matter of "it wouldve been done already" It takes a lot longer in some places than others.
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          #39    
        Old April 3rd, 2013 (5:41 PM).
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          Originally Posted by Shiny Celebi View Post
          Im all for equality for women, being one myself. I dont agree with really radical feminism but I can admit that things are better for women where I live then they once were. I enjoy the fact that I can pretty much do what I please in life and have the freedoms I have and know that if I lived in a different time, I would likely not have those choices. I do agree that it's not perfect and there is still some inequality and double standards though.
          That is the single flaw with feminism. While everyone in the thread pretty much has the right idea, I can say that practically everyone in the thread is very wrongly approaching it.

          Why? "Equality for women" is an oxymoron. Equality itself loses its entire meaning by being attached to one side of an argument, you see. How can we have equality by focusing on one gender alone? We can't, and we never will by looking at it as if the problem lies with how women are treated. By handling it through upping rights and freedoms of one gender, you end up completely forgetting the 'roles and customs' that are left behind on the other side of the field. This is the one reason why all customs formerly held by women are practically nonexistant (cooking, child rearing, etc), while customs for men are practically untouched (selective services, manual labor, etc).

          Calling yourself a 'feminist/masculinist' skips over the point either of them might hope to achieve, honestly.

          .........I hope all of you take into account what I've said.
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            #40    
          Old April 3rd, 2013 (6:04 PM).
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          Word. That is very true. Feminism will never be the agent to equality when the very word itself is based on the woman's perception. The entire ideology is clouded from its starting point.

          Also, feminism is so broad a concept/movement, that there are many conceptions on what it actually means. This gives it lots of opportunity to be hijacked by some part of it. For example, there is an argument (that I agree with) that much of the public feminist message is clouded from an upper-middle class, white, privileged perspective, the one that is born on university campuses. These feminists that advocate women breaking away from their gender roles and becoming career-focused women do not represent all women - because not all people can move up the corporate ladder, regardless of their gender. I don't think it's proper for women to become career oriented as a whole, because somebody has to be the secretary/janitor/burger-flipper/line worker. But we hear this message all the time, that women /should/ put off marriage to focus on their careers, etc. That isn't a message for women, but for overachievers. And this view has nothing to say for women of minorities, who are often not even in a position to think about career advancement to begin with.

          I agree that much of the goals of feminism, the ones that apply to all women, have been accomplished, at least in the Western world. I see the feminist movement right now as breaking into different sects that each speak for a minority, but not for women as a whole. There are many women who want a career, but also want to marry and settle down and be mothers. Who will speak for the mothers? <-- oh wait that's a traditional gender role supporting the patriarchy
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            #41    
          Old May 9th, 2013 (4:58 PM).
          Toutebelle Toutebelle is offline
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            Quote:
            Originally Posted by Pichu2Pikachu2Raichu View Post
            When I looked at this I thought the real F word.

            Just my two cents worth, feminism is over-rated and if woman wanted more feminism in the world I guess that would have been done already AND that could be a very good thing for the Earth.
            Maybe in the US, but a lot of places still really need it.
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              #42    
            Old May 12th, 2013 (4:49 PM).
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              Quote:
              Originally Posted by lollygag View Post
              Maybe in the US, but a lot of places still really need it.
              Just make sure to make a distinction.

              For instance, the Muslim world is much different in their culture and ideation. Many women choose to wear a hijab or veil for religious purposes, or even to conceal themselves from men to avoid being harassed or pestered. Any woman wearing a bikini, might be asking to get pestered, or a man wearing a speedo similarly. Though the veil is often symbolized as a an article of oppression, it is not always the case, though some Middles Eastern cultures are more coercive. Generally, women choose to veil or unveil, often their choice is to create an identify separate from western women, many women in the Middle East don't want to be like US women. That is the issue with some sects of feminism, it's often a conversion to be modernized and assimilated to self-proclaimed dignified behavior.

              Here's a great example to help reinforce this new perspective. Can you think of any group of women that wear heavy cloth over their heads, deprive themselves of sexual freedom, deprive themselves of pleasure in other respects, such as alcohol or certain foods, cannot decide if they can have children or marry, serve under men, may not work to acquire their own income or possessions, and do so in the name of religion? Sounds awful, right? They must not have chosen to live such a restrictive life? Yes, this is happening right here in the US of A too! We must certainly liberate these poor women!

              Well, this group I refer to are the Catholic Nuns of the US. Yes, they do choose to live this life and understand the restrictions they place on themselves. Though, they believe that there is a benefit to living a modest lifestyle, and that benefit, to them, is more valuable than the pleasures and freedoms afforded to women who are not nuns.

              Often feminism is fueled by a need to exert control over another societies cultures and customs, though this pressure is often perpetuated as a movement of liberation.

              That is not to say women in the middle east are not negatively affected by misogynistic institutions. Rather, these women should be able to choose to wear a veil or not, rather than advocating that they should not wear a veil. And, in many areas of the world, modest dress is a choice made by women, due to true cultural or religious ideation.
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                #43    
              Old May 12th, 2013 (5:37 PM).
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              No one is ever "asking for it", Fenneking. That's a terrible and harmful mindset to take on anything, ever. Also you don't really understand the various forms of feminism.

              I'm noticing that a lot on this thread. People either not understand what feminism actually is, or choosing not to understand to attack it. For example:

              1. We just want all women to be Western - Choice feminism is a very popular form of feminism. It argues that it is feminist to be free to make your choice, whether you choose to be submissive SAHM or choose to be a go-getter CEO. Those that do not believe this believe that when women make the choice to become submissive, taking on the roles that women were traditionally forced into, they weaken the cause of women everywhere because they add fuel to the "women just want to do this so we don't need to offer opportunity everywhere" fire.

              2. Feminism doesn't care about men - Feminism is about tearing down gender roles, as these are all products of the same oppressive system. The patriarchy hurts men too - men cannot be feminine because female is lesser, while women can be masculine because male is better. Breaking down the mindset of female as lesser breaks down the mindset that men shouldn't be wearing dresses. Breaking down the mindset of female as lesser breaks down the mindset that being raped as a man is not something to complain about, because it's something that's a "women's issue" and therefore you should suck it up. Breaking down the mindset of female as the only nurturer breaks down the mindset that only women should take extended leave for a child, and men are expected back after a week. Breaking down the mindset of female as the only nurturer breaks down the mindset that women should be favored when talking about children in a divorce. These are all interrelated.

              3. Feminism in first-world countries has accomplished everything - Women make 75 cents to a man's dollar, in the same jobs, working the same hours. When a woman negotiates for a higher salary, she is seen negatively, while a man is seen positively, using the same negotiation techniques. When a woman says the same things in an interview, has the same qualifications, and is talking to the same hiring manage, the woman is less likely to get hired. Even outside of the sexism perpetrated towards women, there's stereotype threat - if a woman knows from socialization that a man is supposed to be better at something she's doing, she'll do worse. But you know what? That stereotype threat disappears if the woman is educated about stereotype threat. This shows up as early as third grade - girls that are told to color a picture of a doll will do worse on a math test than they do when told to color a landscape. Who's educating those little girls to remove the stereotype threat? There's still work to be done in first-world countries.

              Quote:
              I don't think it's proper for women to become career oriented as a whole, because somebody has to be the secretary/janitor/burger-flipper/line worker.
              So women should be forced into the lesser jobs, while men are the ones encouraged to move up? Why? Why can't secretaries/janitors/burger-flippers/line-workers be half and half men and women, as well as higher-up? The workplace as a whole is just about half and half (I believe 52/48), why do you think women should be put in the lesser positions while men are encouraged to become "career oriented"?

              Not surprised at most people here, but a little disappointed. PC can be so progressive and then so...ignorant sometimes.
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                #44    
              Old May 12th, 2013 (5:59 PM). Edited May 12th, 2013 by Entermaid.
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                Quote:
                Originally Posted by Toujours View Post
                No one is ever "asking for it", Fenneking. That's a terrible and harmful mindset to take on anything, ever. Also you don't really understand the various forms of feminism.

                I'm noticing that a lot on this thread. People either not understand what feminism actually is, or choosing not to understand to attack it. For example:
                Please don't take what I said out of context and say it is a harmful mindset since you are inferring something other than what was explicitly expressed. When wearing a bikini or a speedo, exposing a lot, if not all of your skin, it is likely that other men and women will pester you, ie. flirt, stare, give one unwanted attention, not necessarily sexual assault. For some, getting some head-turns or flirting might feel empowering or even an ego boost; for me it would! Generally, this is a reason and a mindset why some Middle Eastern women may prefer to be veiled, many a time they ABSOLUTELY don't want any friendly flirtation or have eyes lust for them, any unwanted pestering/attention would go against their Jihad - journey for inner peace.

                Second, I am only referring to the type of femenism regarding to those that want to westernize the world. Not all femenists do, though there are a number that do.
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                  #45    
                Old May 12th, 2013 (6:26 PM).
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                You explicitly said "Any woman wearing a bikini, might be asking to get pestered, or a man wearing a speedo similarly." You literally cannot get any clearer than that, I am not inferring anything.
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                  #46    
                Old May 12th, 2013 (6:33 PM). Edited May 12th, 2013 by Entermaid.
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                  Yep. "Asking to get pestered (petty annoyances)" and "asking for it." They do not mean the same thing.

                  The latter has an undertone to it, as if I am implying women are sexually assaulted for their own actions. When the original statement says pestered, with the nuance of bothering, flirting, or gazes.

                  Secondly, I never addressed any other forms of feminism, I specifically said, some, not all.

                  Please be constructive and not make any rash implications as it affects my character and creates nonconstructive discussion.
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                    #47    
                  Old May 12th, 2013 (6:36 PM).
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                  I did not say "asking for sexual assault". Who's the one inferring something not explicitly said now?
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                    #48    
                  Old May 12th, 2013 (6:44 PM).
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                    I never implied so, I stated a fact that the second term has an undertone which distorts the meaning of my original post. A fact that the your post took my statement out of context and skewed its meaning in some way or the other given it was in quotations.
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                      #49    
                    Old May 13th, 2013 (11:19 AM).
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                    There is an ocean of difference between "expect" and "ask for."

                    Some things are likely to happen in certain situations. Things we "expect" to happen. Wearing a bikini in many Middle Eastern countries will likely mean a lot of bad attention is directed toward you because it is rare/against many people's morality. A person who wears a bikini, however, can have many different reasons for wearing a bikini, such as a need to escape the heat or a desire to go swimming. They would not be asking for harassing comments, even if they expect that will happen. "Ask for" implies that any consequence of an action is the fault or responsibility of the person taking the action, i.e., a woman wearing a bikini knowingly causes harassment, and could avoid such harassment if not wearing a bikini, therefore it is her fault she is being harassed. A feminist (using that term loosely) perspective would be that a woman has a right to choose to wear a bikini (under the idea that it doesn't hurt anyone) and that people who have a problem with that are the ones at fault for the harassment because they are the ones harassing.

                    We can argue about whether it is risky or dangerous to do certain things in certain situations. (For instance, a gay couple kissing in public in many parts of the world.) We shouldn't confuse that with what is right and who is the one who needs to adjust their actions. This, I think, is one of the core ideas of feminism: not blaming women for every incident where a woman makes a decision. The reactions of others (men, other women, society) are also actions under people's control so we should hold them to the same standard.
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                      #50    
                    Old May 13th, 2013 (1:32 PM).
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                      Again, saying "asking to", and linking it to choosing is fair, but then to link "harassment" (To irritate or torment persistently) to it... I never expressed that. My statement had nothing to do with risky behavior or sexual harassment. Pester is much different. Merely saying, "You are beautiful", would constitute pestering in the context. Or a simple gaze. (Unwanted petty annoyances). Clearly, there are unfair implication being made.

                      If a woman chooses to wear a low-cut shirt/bikini/short-shorts or a man decides to go for a jog shirtless/tanktop/short-shorts, they are choosing to reveal their bodies in some type of way, and spectators, regardless of their control, may lust for them. Merely a person's hair and face can be sexual attractive to others. The gaze from a spectator of one's beauty to some cultures in the Middle East is against their Jihad. The point of the comment was that unveiling in Middle Eastern countries should not be a pressured by the Western World as it was during the colonization period in Egypt, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Lebannon, ect. When we merely show our bodies in any respect, we are choosing to allow for the possibility to have someone be sexual attracted toward us, make comments on our beauty, or make friendly chit-chat (flirting). In certain middle eastern societies, women may not want anyone to have a sexual attraction toward oneself from others, a stranger to comment on their beauty, or unwanted friendly advancements. Therefore, these women should be able to choose to veil or not, rather than be pressured to unveil.
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