The PokéCommunity Forums Off-Topic Discussions Off-Topic
Boy Scouts propose allowing gay scouts

Off-Topic Hang out with people and talk about whatever. Feel free to suggest a better description for this forum as everyone seems to have an opinion. :D

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1    
Old April 20th, 2013 (10:20 AM).
Dakotah's Avatar
Dakotah Dakotah is offline
     
    Join Date: Aug 2010
    Posts: 903
    Boy Scouts propose allowing gay scouts but banning gay leaders.

    http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/04/19/17828322-boy-scouts-propose-allowing-gay-scouts-but-banning-gay-leaders?pc=25&sp=25#discussion_nav

    This has raised a few eyebrows here. It's okay now for a scout to be openly gay, but when he reaches 18, he cannot become a leader?

    I guess this follows the same flawed mentality that thinks gay men prey on little boys.
    __________________
    DAKOTAH
    Personal Website
    YouTube Channel


    1693-4093-6753
    Normal Safari
    Lillipup / Audino / Ditto


    "...many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view." ~ Obi Wan Kenobi
    Reply With Quote

    Relevant Advertising!

      #2    
    Old April 20th, 2013 (10:52 AM).
    Somniac's Avatar
    Somniac Somniac is offline
    Probably sleeping.
    • Gold Tier
     
    Join Date: Dec 2012
    Location: united kingdom
    Age: 25
    Gender: Female
    Nature: Naughty
    Posts: 740
    It's pretty idiotic really. Sexuality isn't something so simple as one or the other, it's not either 'gay or straight', there are a ton of different sexuality classifications such as bisexual, asexual, pansexual and such. The notion that just because a scout leader is gay means that he's inappropriate to be caring for young boys is ridiculous. It's basically saying that all gay men are pedophiles.

    By that logic, would;d it be acceptable for a heterosexual male pedophile to care for boyscouts? Of course it wouldn't, the issue is protecting the children from pedophiles not homosexuals.

    The fact that they're only now allowing openly gay kids into scouts is a shame. When I was younger I met my first girlfriend at scouts, both of us had to hide the fact that we were 'different' and it made us feel ashamed which is ridiculous.
    __________________
    Reply With Quote
      #3    
    Old April 20th, 2013 (11:25 AM).
    Dakotah's Avatar
    Dakotah Dakotah is offline
       
      Join Date: Aug 2010
      Posts: 903
      Quote:
      Originally Posted by Somniac View Post
      The fact that they're only now allowing openly gay kids into scouts is a shame. When I was younger I met my first girlfriend at scouts, both of us had to hide the fact that we were 'different' and it made us feel ashamed which is ridiculous.
      I'm glad that in countries like the UK and Canada, the organizations there do not prohibit openly gay people from joining or volunteering. The only thing that kept me from coming out when I was in scouts was the fact that I wasn't out at all. Heck, at that age, I didn't even know what being gay meant. I just knew that I liked guys whereas all of my friends were beginning to talk about girls.
      Reply With Quote
        #4    
      Old April 20th, 2013 (7:36 PM).
      Esper's Avatar
      Esper Esper is offline
      • Silver Tier
       
      Join Date: Jun 2009
      Location: California
      Posts: 10,350
      It's a half-step in the right direction, I guess. I wonder if it will actually mean kids will join while being openly gay or if gay kids will still avoid it since it's the group is a sort of quasi-religious organization and religious groups aren't totally on board with the whole gay people are still people idea. That tends to push queer youth away from religion and I imagine it'll push young gay kids away from the boy scouts.
      __________________
      Reply With Quote
        #5    
      Old April 20th, 2013 (8:08 PM).
      Kanzler's Avatar
      Kanzler Kanzler is offline
      naughty biscotti
      • Crystal Tier
       
      Join Date: Jul 2008
      Location: Toronto
      Gender: Male
      Nature: Relaxed
      Posts: 5,858
      I've never been to boy scouts (we have Scouts Canada, and at least de jure discrimination and harassment isn't an issue), but I don't really believe allowing gay scouts will really help homophobia. You've got all these teenage boys, and you know how mature teenage boys tend to be. Like I've been in cadets, and homophobia is pretty rampant, okay maybe only among the people who don't try hard - but who knows, maybe without the military focus people won't be making gay jokes all the time?
      Reply With Quote
        #6    
      Old April 21st, 2013 (3:34 AM).
      Dakotah's Avatar
      Dakotah Dakotah is offline
         
        Join Date: Aug 2010
        Posts: 903
        Quote:
        Originally Posted by BlahISuck View Post
        I've never been to boy scouts (we have Scouts Canada, and at least de jure discrimination and harassment isn't an issue), but I don't really believe allowing gay scouts will really help homophobia. You've got all these teenage boys, and you know how mature teenage boys tend to be. Like I've been in cadets, and homophobia is pretty rampant, okay maybe only among the people who don't try hard - but who knows, maybe without the military focus people won't be making gay jokes all the time?
        I don't for one second believe that homophobia is rampant in teenagers. Quiet the opposite, actually. A lot of the people I work with are teens, and they've displayed no issues with gay people, be they co-workers or customers. I was also in cadets, like you, and experienced no negativity toward gays. Sure, there were the odd jokes, but I detected no malice in those words. As for the maturity of teenagers, I've seen some adults who could learn something from teenagers when it comes to behaviour.

        A part of the reason homophobia exists is because people are generally wary of the unknown. Some are more fearful of it than others. But it is proven that once a person gets to know someone who is different, all their fears and uncertainties melt away. It is only the die-hard individuals, the ones who cannot accept differences no matter what, that continue to be a problem. If more people in scouting were to become aware of people who are gay, I suspect the same will be true. Eventually no one will know what all the fuss was about. It's only the irrational fears of the scout leaders that are keeping this from happening. If they don't change, and change soon, scouting in the U.S. will be jeopardy.
        Reply With Quote
          #7    
        Old April 21st, 2013 (6:37 AM).
        Sydian's Avatar
        Sydian Sydian is offline
        ≫ the emperor ≪
        • Super Moderator
        • Crystal Tier
         
        Join Date: Feb 2008
        Location: Alabama
        Age: 24
        Nature: Timid
        Posts: 31,999
        Quote:
        I don't for one second believe that homophobia is rampant in teenagers. Quiet the opposite, actually. A lot of the people I work with are teens, and they've displayed no issues with gay people, be they co-workers or customers. I was also in cadets, like you, and experienced no negativity toward gays. Sure, there were the odd jokes, but I detected no malice in those words. As for the maturity of teenagers, I've seen some adults who could learn something from teenagers when it comes to behaviour.
        I think it may depend on where you are as well. Come down to Alabama, and you wouldn't say the same thing.

        Anyway, it's a small step in the right direction. I hate that it's happening now, but hey, at least it's happening at all. But I'm tired of the "old gay men are pedophiles" notion. Sounds like the people that think that have been watching too much Family Guy.
        __________________
        ≫ this is my other self!
        persona | gun
        Reply With Quote
          #8    
        Old April 21st, 2013 (9:20 AM).
        Kanzler's Avatar
        Kanzler Kanzler is offline
        naughty biscotti
        • Crystal Tier
         
        Join Date: Jul 2008
        Location: Toronto
        Gender: Male
        Nature: Relaxed
        Posts: 5,858
        Quote:
        Originally Posted by Jay_37040 View Post
        I don't for one second believe that homophobia is rampant in teenagers. Quiet the opposite, actually. A lot of the people I work with are teens, and they've displayed no issues with gay people, be they co-workers or customers. I was also in cadets, like you, and experienced no negativity toward gays. Sure, there were the odd jokes, but I detected no malice in those words. As for the maturity of teenagers, I've seen some adults who could learn something from teenagers when it comes to behaviour.
        I might be overstating the problem, but at camp I found that being gay was stigmatized. Like you'd have people acting homophobic to "prove" they weren't gay. And this isn't even camp, this goes back to elementary school to be honest. The first time I heard the word gay was in Grade 3 (when I moved to Toronto, eh?) and that's only because the community I used to live in was not as ... urban shall we say? It was directed at me in an offensive manner, and it didn't really change as I grew up (I went to school with a lot of minorities, especially Black people that tend to be extremely conservative about homosexuality, to put it nicely). I think "no homo" became a thing over the course of the last decade and I'm not sure if you've been immersed in how homophobia is expressed today - it might've been different 25 years ago. Like in changerooms? Oh jeez. I don't think any LGBTQ youth were bullied in my school, but that's possibly because some of them were quite popular so it may have been a generational thing and not evident of a trend.

        Of course they wouldn't display homophobia when they're co-workers or customers, because there's no social context. They're not going to win your approval by gay-bashing are they? And while I don't think anybody expresses malice, that's the very thing about homophobia - it's an expression of stigma versus an attack on homosexuality as you'd hear by some conservative radio hosts. Sure they're two different things, but even if you don't mean evil and still use the same language there's a bit of grey area, so I'll leave the culpability for you to decide.

        Just coming out of my teens, I think I'm on pretty solid ground in saying that teenagers are not that mature. You've got quite a bit of years on me, so you're deserving of being extra cynical to those of your generation XD but I find a lot of my peers are starting to find their way and becoming more responsible socially/economically where they'd all just skip class and get in trouble back in high school.

        The Boy Scouts of America have always seemed to me to be a conservative organization, in both funding and values, so theoretically they would be among the last organizations to allow gay participants. The article has a pretty hesitant mood to it, so even if gay scouts are allowed, I don't know if they would have anti-discriminatory policies, anti-discrimination training, and the moral values to enforce what they're putting on paper. Even if you're allowed to officially join, it doesn't mean you'll be welcome.
        Reply With Quote
          #9    
        Old April 21st, 2013 (3:45 PM).
        Dakotah's Avatar
        Dakotah Dakotah is offline
           
          Join Date: Aug 2010
          Posts: 903
          Quote:
          Originally Posted by BlahISuck View Post
          I might be overstating the problem, but at camp I found that being gay was stigmatized. Like you'd have people acting homophobic to "prove" they weren't gay. And this isn't even camp, this goes back to elementary school to be honest. The first time I heard the word gay was in Grade 3 (when I moved to Toronto, eh?) and that's only because the community I used to live in was not as ... urban shall we say? It was directed at me in an offensive manner, and it didn't really change as I grew up (I went to school with a lot of minorities, especially Black people that tend to be extremely conservative about homosexuality, to put it nicely). I think "no homo" became a thing over the course of the last decade and I'm not sure if you've been immersed in how homophobia is expressed today - it might've been different 25 years ago. Like in changerooms? Oh jeez. I don't think any LGBTQ youth were bullied in my school, but that's possibly because some of them were quite popular so it may have been a generational thing and not evident of a trend.
          It might have been different all those years ago, because until high school I hadn't even heard the word gay used in any other context other than "happy." And that was when in music we were to sing Christmas carols.

          Quote:
          Originally Posted by BlahISuck View Post
          Of course they wouldn't display homophobia when they're co-workers or customers, because there's no social context. They're not going to win your approval by gay-bashing are they? And while I don't think anybody expresses malice, that's the very thing about homophobia - it's an expression of stigma versus an attack on homosexuality as you'd hear by some conservative radio hosts. Sure they're two different things, but even if you don't mean evil and still use the same language there's a bit of grey area, so I'll leave the culpability for you to decide.
          I just haven't heard any homophobic language, from the teens, either direct or indirect. So I don't know. It has to greatly depend on where you've grown up and the community you live in. Burlington, where I work, has been known to be economically conservative, but socially liberal. Hamilton, where I live now (and wish I wasn't), is far more conservative, and it's here that I have to watch my back. We've had adults drive by our house and yell gay slurs at us as we sit on our porch. We shrug it off. We get far more people honking their horns at us in support when they see us and the pride flag that flies above our porch.

          When I was growing up and in scouts, I had such a great group of friends. They were also people that I went to school with so we knew each other well. But even from those that I didn't know very well, I had no problems. Not at the meetings, and not at the camps. I'd say most of the fun I've ever had was at those camps. And not once did I hear anyone at any time say anything disparaging against gays. Like I said, until high school, the word to me pretty much just meant happy, because that is the only context in which the word was used.

          Quote:
          Originally Posted by BlahISuck View Post
          Just coming out of my teens, I think I'm on pretty solid ground in saying that teenagers are not that mature. You've got quite a bit of years on me, so you're deserving of being extra cynical to those of your generation XD but I find a lot of my peers are starting to find their way and becoming more responsible socially/economically where they'd all just skip class and get in trouble back in high school.
          That's saying it mildly, I'm old enough to be the father of most of the people on these forums.

          When gauging the maturity of the people we deal with, while it's true the language of the teens this days is... shall we say... colourful, when I have conversations with them, or when facing a problem that needs to be solved, I've found teenagers to be about as level headed as any adult I've talked to. Teenagers are still children. Their minds still have not fully developed. Plus, on top of that, they have sudden surges of hormones filling their systems which can make their moods unpredictable. But I can deal with teenagers on the same level as I deal with adults. So maybe it's just the setting where you're interacting with some of these teens that gives you that impression of them. It's not their age that determines their maturity, it's how they were raised.

          Quote:
          Originally Posted by BlahISuck View Post
          The Boy Scouts of America have always seemed to me to be a conservative organization, in both funding and values, so theoretically they would be among the last organizations to allow gay participants. The article has a pretty hesitant mood to it, so even if gay scouts are allowed, I don't know if they would have anti-discriminatory policies, anti-discrimination training, and the moral values to enforce what they're putting on paper. Even if you're allowed to officially join, it doesn't mean you'll be welcome.
          If they are never made to feel welcome, it would counter all the good will they're trying to develop. I would say in the beginning, I think (if this policy is adopted) the BSA will keep a close eye on the chartered members to make sure they're not doing anything to alienate any boy scout.
          Reply With Quote
            #10    
          Old April 21st, 2013 (4:30 PM).
          Kanzler's Avatar
          Kanzler Kanzler is offline
          naughty biscotti
          • Crystal Tier
           
          Join Date: Jul 2008
          Location: Toronto
          Gender: Male
          Nature: Relaxed
          Posts: 5,858
          Quote:
          Originally Posted by Jay_37040 View Post
          It might have been different all those years ago, because until high school I hadn't even heard the word gay used in any other context other than "happy." And that was when in music we were to sing Christmas carols.
          The fact that you've only heard gay be used in the happy context until high school speaks loads about how the language is being used nowadays. It's all that's gay this and no homo that, especially in unfamiliar social situations - such as camp - where homophobia is seen as an opportunity to build up social value (cuz what's the point among friends?).

          Quote:
          Originally Posted by Jay_37040 View Post
          Hamilton, where I live now (and wish I wasn't), is far more conservative, and it's here that I have to watch my back. We've had adults drive by our house and yell gay slurs at us as we sit on our porch.
          That sounds horrible. The worst kind of slurring I've heard personally was when these two people walking behind us made fun of my mom's parking. I wanted to slash their tires and put some faces in windshields, but you can't have everything you want in life I don't know how I'd deal with jeering like you do. Probably by recording lots of license plate numbers.

          Quote:
          Originally Posted by Jay_37040 View Post
          If they are never made to feel welcome, it would counter all the good will they're trying to develop. I would say in the beginning, I think (if this policy is adopted) the BSA will keep a close eye on the chartered members to make sure they're not doing anything to alienate any boy scout.
          I don't know if the BSA leadership genuinely believe in equality and dignity among all people and are trying to socially engineer the culture of their members. That sounds a bit too benevolent and far-fetched to me. Rather, I see it as a reaction vs. a proactive action in order to preserve their moral standing as a major US institution, a political compromise to preserve relevance. So that's where I come from when I say that while gay scouts might be allowed on paper, the entrenched culture isn't going to change. I dunno, I'm just a bit pessimistic when it comes to this

          As a side note, it's really cool how we can share our experiences with homophobia from two very different eras. Like the language and the attitude has changed from kind of pretending that gay people don't exist to hostility. Also queer isn't being used as an insult (like we discussed some thread before XD). Since I haven't lived in your time, I took the racist/homophobic slurs of Gunnery Sergeant Hartman in Full Metal Jacket as an example of how queer was used back in the day. Now it's in journalism, it's in activism, it's in academia, it's everywhere as the word to describe the entirety of gender/orientation minorities. So society's view to homosexuality changes its form and content over time, and in my opinion has gotten worse. If BSA every becomes whole-hearted accepting of all people, it'll be a reflection of changes in society as a whole instead of BSA taking vanguard, genuine action.
          Reply With Quote
            #11    
          Old April 22nd, 2013 (7:31 PM).
          twocows's Avatar
          twocows twocows is offline
          Pretentious Intellectual Jerk
          • Gold Tier
           
          Join Date: Mar 2009
          Location: Michigan
          Age: 26
          Gender: Male
          Nature: Lax
          Posts: 4,125
          A good start, but the idea that a significant portion of homosexual men are child rapists is absurd and lacks any basis in reality. I can't really fault them for it, though; I imagine they don't want to open themselves up to attacks from the most definitely significant population of idiot hicks in the US who would freak out if they allowed such a thing.

          Quote:
          Originally Posted by BlahISuck View Post
          The worst kind of slurring I've heard personally was when these two people walking behind us made fun of my mom's parking. I wanted to slash their tires and put some faces in windshields, but you can't have everything you want in life ;)
          When did legitimate criticism become "slurring?" I think you've got some anger management issues.
          __________________
          Doctors Without Borders: one of the few charity groups you can rely on to actually do real good in the world.

          "The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all." - H. L. Mencken, unsourced

          "There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'"- Isaac Asimov, Column in Newsweek (21 January 1980) [source]
          Reply With Quote
            #12    
          Old April 22nd, 2013 (8:15 PM).
          Kanzler's Avatar
          Kanzler Kanzler is offline
          naughty biscotti
          • Crystal Tier
           
          Join Date: Jul 2008
          Location: Toronto
          Gender: Male
          Nature: Relaxed
          Posts: 5,858
          Quote:
          Originally Posted by twocows View Post
          When did legitimate criticism become "slurring?" I think you've got some anger management issues.
          How do you know it was legitimate criticism? I think you're doing a bit of assuming here. While the parking wasn't perfect, it wasn't terrible. They uttered a racist term and chuckled. I think you should take other people's concerns seriously, especially before you start labelling people you don't know well enough with having anger management issues. I don't know what you planned to do with that statement - you didn't know what happened, but you took the liberty of assuming that it wasn't slurring. I think, being Chinese, I can tell a racist term from a regular word.
          Reply With Quote
            #13    
          Old April 22nd, 2013 (8:47 PM).
          Yusshin's Avatar
          Yusshin Yusshin is offline
          ♪ Yggdrasil ♪
             
            Join Date: Jul 2009
            Location: Quebec, Canada
            Age: 24
            Nature: Brave
            Posts: 2,424
            Quote:
            I just haven't heard any homophobic language, from the teens, either direct or indirect. So I don't know. It has to greatly depend on where you've grown up and the community you live in. Burlington, where I work, has been known to be economically conservative, but socially liberal. Hamilton, where I live now (and wish I wasn't), is far more conservative, and it's here that I have to watch my back. We've had adults drive by our house and yell gay slurs at us as we sit on our porch. We shrug it off. We get far more people honking their horns at us in support when they see us and the pride flag that flies above our porch.
            Orillia is like that. Literally, 99.3% of the population is white. 0.01% is Chinese and the other 0.06% is Indian. Made-up numbers, but just to show how scarce diversity is there in cottage country.

            My boyfriend and I would be walking outside, minding our own business. People would drive by and yell out things like "terrorist" and "sandn-" for no reason. Then they'd drive off really fast, like the losers they are, thinking they're all "cool" for screaming like monkeys from their beat-up trashy car.

            I've had people do that about my weight, too, but not particular to that city. I've had it happen where children on bikes (in Montreal) have made rude comments about it. Absolutely unnecessary! Someone needs to smack these people sideways. Seriously.

            I also don't see why it's an issue to have homosexual scout leaders compared to them being in scouts as, well, scouts. Being homosexual has no correlation between the risk of a child being molested. You could be molested by anyone, really. People in all races, religions, backgrounds, orientations, etc. can be sickos. I see the organization is moving in the right direction, but they have to move faster; this kind of discrimination isn't acceptable anymore.
            __________________


            Polaret | Fourette | Ecuret | Axew | Zorua | Nanette [Shiny]
            "My scar makes me sassy, child!"
            The Big Bang Theory Fan Club - Click To Join!
            The French Club
            Reply With Quote
              #14    
            Old April 23rd, 2013 (7:52 AM).
            Dakotah's Avatar
            Dakotah Dakotah is offline
               
              Join Date: Aug 2010
              Posts: 903
              Quote:
              Originally Posted by Yusshin View Post
              I also don't see why it's an issue to have homosexual scout leaders compared to them being in scouts as, well, scouts. Being homosexual has no correlation between the risk of a child being molested. You could be molested by anyone, really. People in all races, religions, backgrounds, orientations, etc. can be sickos. I see the organization is moving in the right direction, but they have to move faster; this kind of discrimination isn't acceptable anymore.
              You know this. I know this. Millions of others know this. And yet, there are still some, the leaders of the BSA included, who hold onto these negative stereotypes about gays and lesbians. I find it very interesting that the Girl Guides in the US holds no such position, and is open to all girls, including transgender girls.

              I would like to think that the BSA leadership is ignorant about homosexuality, but unless they've been living in a vacuum, I don't see how this can be true. Something has to be driving this negative bias towards homosexuality and I firmly believe that it has to do with their socially conservative religious beliefs. These are people who could be given all the relevant information about human sexuality, and it wouldn't make one difference.

              The only reason, and I stress this, the only reason I think that they are even considering to relax their ban on gays being scouts, is money. They are losing a tonne of it. Sponsors left and right are no longer providing financial support. The BSA has also been sued in recent years for harbouring sex-offenders within its organization. What we're seeing, I think, is a massive PR campaign to try and win back what they'd lost. But they're doing it in a really haphazard way that could potentially exasperate the problems they face, rather than solve it.
              Reply With Quote
                #15    
              Old April 23rd, 2013 (2:53 PM).
              twocows's Avatar
              twocows twocows is offline
              Pretentious Intellectual Jerk
              • Gold Tier
               
              Join Date: Mar 2009
              Location: Michigan
              Age: 26
              Gender: Male
              Nature: Lax
              Posts: 4,125
              Quote:
              Originally Posted by BlahISuck View Post
              How do you know it was legitimate criticism? I think you're doing a bit of assuming here. While the parking wasn't perfect, it wasn't terrible. They uttered a racist term and chuckled. I think you should take other people's concerns seriously, especially before you start labelling people you don't know well enough with having anger management issues. I don't know what you planned to do with that statement - you didn't know what happened, but you took the liberty of assuming that it wasn't slurring. I think, being Chinese, I can tell a racist term from a regular word.
              Then you weren't being clear. You made it sound like the slur was that she parked poorly. And in that case, even if she did the best parking job in the world, their worst crime would have been being wrong. You never mentioned anything about them saying anything racist.
              Reply With Quote
                #16    
              Old April 23rd, 2013 (4:04 PM).
              Caelus Caelus is offline
              Gone
                 
                Join Date: Oct 2008
                Posts: 2,701
                They could have done more (such as allowing gay scout leaders), but it's a step in the right direction. Eventually people are going to have to get over homosexuality and just accept it, so at least they're getting to the point where they're allowing gay scouts.


                Quote:
                I don't for one second believe that homophobia is rampant in teenagers. Quiet the opposite, actually. A lot of the people I work with are teens, and they've displayed no issues with gay people, be they co-workers or customers. I was also in cadets, like you, and experienced no negativity toward gays. Sure, there were the odd jokes, but I detected no malice in those words. As for the maturity of teenagers, I've seen some adults who could learn something from teenagers when it comes to behaviour.
                Here in Tennessee it's quite the opposite. A lot of my friends here hate gays and insult them every now and then; it's pathetic, but what else do you expect from the bible belt?
                __________________
                -
                Reply With Quote
                  #17    
                Old April 23rd, 2013 (6:28 PM).
                Kanzler's Avatar
                Kanzler Kanzler is offline
                naughty biscotti
                • Crystal Tier
                 
                Join Date: Jul 2008
                Location: Toronto
                Gender: Male
                Nature: Relaxed
                Posts: 5,858
                Quote:
                Originally Posted by twocows View Post
                Then you weren't being clear. You made it sound like the slur was that she parked poorly. And in that case, even if she did the best parking job in the world, their worst crime would have been being wrong. You never mentioned anything about them saying anything racist.
                It is your prerogative to make the assumption that the slur was poor parking. You also doubted my judgement even though we all post on the same forum and perhaps some respect through considering other's concerns seriously versus doubting them as your first response would be appreciated and expected. Sure, I wasn't being as clear as I could have been - but my purpose was to quite simply communicate the fact that slurring hurts, not debate the appropriateness of my response. I wasn't "making" what I said "sound" like anything. I'm not responsible for the unnecessarily harsh comments you make, and it's not somehow my negligence for not being clear enough.

                Even if you did doubt my judgement, as you expressed, then why not respond inquisitively? If something about my reasoning bothers you then just express that uneasiness courteously instead of moving into accusations of me "having some anger management issues". This isn't even the place to discuss personal matters, we're here to discuss topics of a public nature - if anybody needed advice they would go to one of the advice threads and perhaps there your response, though not in the form it took, would be welcome. It's unprofessional to go after a person's self instead of his idea in a debate, as well as having the audacity to say you think someone else has got "issues". I'm sure we all understand that word is loaded with stigma. There's no purpose throwing that word around anywhere in the entirety of this forum.

                You make many well reasoned responses and I appreciate your use of logic in your posts. I am disheartened, however, to be on the receiving end of one of your occasional caustic remarks.
                Reply With Quote
                  #18    
                Old April 24th, 2013 (5:26 PM). Edited April 24th, 2013 by twocows.
                twocows's Avatar
                twocows twocows is offline
                Pretentious Intellectual Jerk
                • Gold Tier
                 
                Join Date: Mar 2009
                Location: Michigan
                Age: 26
                Gender: Male
                Nature: Lax
                Posts: 4,125
                Quote:
                Originally Posted by BlahISuck View Post
                It is your prerogative to make the assumption that the slur was poor parking.
                No, it is the writer's job to make it clear what he or she is talking about. It is not nor will it ever be the reader's job to read his or her mind.
                Quote:
                You also doubted my judgement even though we all post on the same forum and perhaps some respect through considering other's concerns seriously versus doubting them as your first response would be appreciated and expected. Sure, I wasn't being as clear as I could have been - but my purpose was to quite simply communicate the fact that slurring hurts, not debate the appropriateness of my response. I wasn't "making" what I said "sound" like anything. I'm not responsible for the unnecessarily harsh comments you make, and it's not somehow my negligence for not being clear enough.
                Judgment had nothing to do with it. I made an assumption based on the most logical reading of what you said. I reread it a few times before I posted and didn't see anything to indicate that the slur was something other than criticism of a parking job. Again, reader doesn't imply "mind reader," and yes, the onus is on you to be clear.

                Quote:
                Even if you did doubt my judgement, as you expressed, then why not respond inquisitively? If something about my reasoning bothers you then just express that uneasiness courteously instead of moving into accusations of me "having some anger management issues". This isn't even the place to discuss personal matters, we're here to discuss topics of a public nature - if anybody needed advice they would go to one of the advice threads and perhaps there your response, though not in the form it took, would be welcome. It's unprofessional to go after a person's self instead of his idea in a debate, as well as having the audacity to say you think someone else has got "issues". I'm sure we all understand that word is loaded with stigma. There's no purpose throwing that word around anywhere in the entirety of this forum.
                You're taking far too much offense over a jab that didn't even apply. If you misspoke, just say so. If I was, hypothetically, to call you an idiot for telling me about something stupid you did, except you DIDN'T do something stupid and merely told the story wrong, there's nothing to take offense over. You misspoke. Clarify what you meant and life goes on.

                Quote:
                You make many well reasoned responses and I appreciate your use of logic in your posts. I am disheartened, however, to be on the receiving end of one of your occasional caustic remarks.
                "Caustic remarks" generally get the point across quickly and elicit an emotional response that is usually deserved. If you were getting upset over someone criticizing your mother's parking, that remark would have gotten across the idea that "you're getting upset about something trivial" (which sounds strangely poignant right now) and, hopefully, made you feel (correctly, in that case) a bit silly. And the fact that I said "I think" rather than "You clearly have" gave you a chance to amend your statement if I misunderstood (which I did).

                This is off-topic, if you wish to discuss it further, please do so via PM.
                Reply With Quote
                  #19    
                Old April 25th, 2013 (1:32 PM).
                Livewire's Avatar
                Livewire Livewire is offline
                • Platinum Tier
                 
                Join Date: Jul 2009
                Location: Sunnyshore City
                Gender: Male
                Nature: Adamant
                Posts: 14,264
                Quote:
                Originally Posted by twocows View Post
                No, it is the writer's job to make it clear what he or she is talking about. It is not nor will it ever be the reader's job to read his or her mind.
                Judgment had nothing to do with it. I made an assumption based on the most logical reading of what you said. I reread it a few times before I posted and didn't see anything to indicate that the slur was something other than criticism of a parking job. Again, reader doesn't imply "mind reader," and yes, the onus is on you to be clear.

                You're taking far too much offense over a jab that didn't even apply. If you misspoke, just say so. If I was, hypothetically, to call you an idiot for telling me about something stupid you did, except you DIDN'T do something stupid and merely told the story wrong, there's nothing to take offense over. You misspoke. Clarify what you meant and life goes on.

                "Caustic remarks" generally get the point across quickly and elicit an emotional response that is usually deserved. If you were getting upset over someone criticizing your mother's parking, that remark would have gotten across the idea that "you're getting upset about something trivial" (which sounds strangely poignant right now) and, hopefully, made you feel (correctly, in that case) a bit silly. And the fact that I said "I think" rather than "You clearly have" gave you a chance to amend your statement if I misunderstood (which I did).

                This is off-topic, if you wish to discuss it further, please do so via PM.

                ...then lets leave it be and you two can hash it out via PM.

                Anyways, if the scouts want to stay relevant, they'd be wise to adapt to and to accept LGBT people. It's already an afterthought to begin with, compared to what it used to be.
                __________________
                Reply With Quote
                  #20    
                Old April 29th, 2013 (10:22 AM).
                François's Avatar
                François François is offline
                #FutureSun&MoonMod
                • Gold Tier
                 
                Join Date: Jan 2013
                Location: Batisques
                Age: 21
                Gender: Male
                Nature: Serious
                Posts: 396
                You know I recently joined a new forum (as one does), probably the first and last young, hetero male-dominant forum I'll ever read. It actually appalled me how often "no homo" and random negative references to homosexuals were used. Honestly, I think when it comes to the youth of today, if you're going to make a massive generalisation about attitudes, you can at least split them into a few subgroups. Whether they be gender, area, religion or whatever. From my own experiences, there's an... odd attitude to homosexuality in my school.

                Our religion class basically is "random social issues" class and the strangest things are said (by the males) when sexuality is brought up. "I don't hate gays... I just don't think it's right" (non-practicing male Christian), "How else could you become gay rather than by choice" etc. From what I've seen, homophobia in youth is primarily down to the teachings of the adults in their life (obviously) and the resulting social pressure. So... what? Are boy scouts genuinely gay-hating? Probably not. I think a minority of the youth population that would appear to be anti-gay are actually homophobic, it's just a mixture of trying to fit in and not really understanding something different that leads to the prevalence of anti-gay comments.

                As such, it's a generational thing. Anti-gay teachings were passed on by religion and religion is increasingly less influential so genuine homophobes are born less and less often. People who find gay people "weird" are not going to bother passing on that sentiment to children, so genuine homophobia and finding gays "weird" is probably going to die out, fast (well, in more secular areas). The problem is the much harder to eradicate social stigma, which is far easier to pass on due to the interaction between generations in social settings where stigma thrives (schools, sports clubs etc) and is the true limiter of progress for gay rights.

                I guess that random tangent all boils down to one point: boy scouts allowing gays in will not change how gays are treated there. If you go too pro-gay, parents will pull their kids out for fear of association, but not pro-gay enough (the current proposal) still allows for a "well, we'll give them something but we're still not OK with them" attitude. Honestly I don't think any conservative organisation in America will ever be free of gay stigma, but even one gay scout leader that gains acceptance could make a world of difference. It's just a case of someone being brave enough to go against the stigma.
                __________________

                Reply With Quote
                  #21    
                Old April 29th, 2013 (10:41 AM).
                Dakotah's Avatar
                Dakotah Dakotah is offline
                   
                  Join Date: Aug 2010
                  Posts: 903
                  The countering of homophobia lies mostly in education. But it's also dependent on the one being enlightened to have an open mind. If the mind is closed and unwilling to accept any information to counter the beliefs of the individual, then countering the homophobia would be difficult. It would take a sustained effort of de-conditioning (because prejudice is a learned trait) before homophobia could be eliminated in the individual.
                  Reply With Quote
                    #22    
                  Old April 29th, 2013 (5:44 PM).
                  TRIFORCE89's Avatar
                  TRIFORCE89 TRIFORCE89 is offline
                  Guide of Darkness
                  • Gold Tier
                   
                  Join Date: May 2004
                  Location: Temple of Light
                  Age: 27
                  Gender: Male
                  Nature: Quiet
                  Posts: 8,128
                  I never understand these stories. Why wouldn't they be allowed before? Being gay doesn't make you less capable at tying knots. That's all you do in scouts right?
                  __________________
                  Reply With Quote
                    #23    
                  Old April 29th, 2013 (6:08 PM).
                  Dakotah's Avatar
                  Dakotah Dakotah is offline
                     
                    Join Date: Aug 2010
                    Posts: 903
                    Because scouting in the US is largely governed by religious organizations. Primarily, by the Mormon Church. They have interpreted the motto that contains these words: "morally straight" to preclude the acceptance of any child or adult volunteer who self-identifies as being non-heterosexual, or who does not hold a belief in God. And people wonder why I so dislike organized religion.
                    Reply With Quote
                      #24    
                    Old April 29th, 2013 (6:13 PM).
                    Kanzler's Avatar
                    Kanzler Kanzler is offline
                    naughty biscotti
                    • Crystal Tier
                     
                    Join Date: Jul 2008
                    Location: Toronto
                    Gender: Male
                    Nature: Relaxed
                    Posts: 5,858
                    LOL by morally straight don't they say mean "not morally crooked" vs. "straight"?
                    Reply With Quote
                      #25    
                    Old April 29th, 2013 (7:16 PM).
                    TRIFORCE89's Avatar
                    TRIFORCE89 TRIFORCE89 is offline
                    Guide of Darkness
                    • Gold Tier
                     
                    Join Date: May 2004
                    Location: Temple of Light
                    Age: 27
                    Gender: Male
                    Nature: Quiet
                    Posts: 8,128
                    Quote:
                    Originally Posted by BlahISuck View Post
                    LOL by morally straight don't they say mean "not morally crooked" vs. "straight"?
                    I'd assume so, yes.

                    This is such a strange interpretation.
                    Reply With Quote
                    Reply
                    Quick Reply

                    Sponsored Links
                    Thread Tools

                    Posting Rules
                    You may not post new threads
                    You may not post replies
                    You may not post attachments
                    You may not edit your posts

                    BB code is On
                    Smilies are On
                    [IMG] code is On
                    HTML code is Off

                    Forum Jump


                    All times are GMT -8. The time now is 12:27 AM.