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  #151    
Old April 18th, 2013 (9:35 AM).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolflare View Post
I'd love to make another PC OU. I was a big supporter of it, and I still am. Anti says it's too late, but we still have a half a year until XY is out. This would be a good time to test out our tiering system and iron out the kinks before XY is here. I think it would be a cool project, but I don't think we should focus entirely on it and not bother with expanding the amount of metagames we're comfortable with. I do suggest making a council of 3 or 5 members for our tiering system. They would make all of the decisions, but the community is free to sway their opinion.
I didn't even realize it was still 6 months away >.> I'd guess I'd be down to help out with this in whatever capacity. If it's anything like the one we did the first time it was at least fun to do it, regardless if it didn't actually work out in the long-run. I still think we should put focus onto other things as well though, whether is RU/UU/Ubers, as people seem interested at least.
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  #152    
Old April 18th, 2013 (9:50 AM). Edited April 18th, 2013 by wolf.
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Keep in mind that metagame mods are still a possibility. For example, we could take broken Pokemon and nerf them by changing their stats and such. Possibly make a tier where everything is allowed, but most Uber and OU Pokemon are nerfed to some degree. I thought I'd suggest it as a possibility. Sure, the metagame wouldn't be viable on the actual Pokemon games, but our Wi-Fi battling community is nonexistent anyway. Heck, even Smogon doesn't have a big Wi-Fi battling community like it used to.

Edit: We could even remove hax from the metagame if we wanted to. But I'll also mention a downside to this: we could end up changing so much that new players would have difficulty getting into it.
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  #153    
Old April 18th, 2013 (9:57 AM).
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Okay so this is just me kind of interjecting since I had to read through a lot. Anywho, I just want to say that I'm definitely interested in trying other tiers than NU, or just more NU to be honest. Basically I like the idea of us coming together as a community to focus on something together - whether it be other tiers or creating our own OU, or focusing solely on UU etc. In all honesty I'm really down to try anything, and would love to start being more competitive.

(also I think advertising this thread on the server would be good so we get everyone's input. I guess for some reason people just tend to look at the Server thread over this one? I know that's true for me :p)
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  #154    
Old April 18th, 2013 (1:28 PM).
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I just wanted to address the fact that I don't plan on participating if you guys are gonna ban every random thing. Of course, you're allowed to construct your ~ideal~ metagame based on whatever the opinions of the few people running this are, but I believe you should not ban things unless they're absolutely broken. "Broken" is a consistently misused and misinterpreted term; no one knows exactly what defines broken, and the people that spout it off constantly are generally selfish people whose teams cannot deal with x or y Pokemon or they outright just don't like something. If you ever read a suspect discussion on Smogon, you'll understand that it's primarily lead by people that feel they are incredibly important and have an issue adapting to new Pokemon, and that their opinion is the only way through.

Part of the reason why BW OU was so miserable is because everyone kept trying to fit it into the same kind of build as DP, rather than accepting the fact that it's a completely different metagame. People don't realize that, y'know, even if we have auto-weather in OU and insanely fast and strong Pokemon, we can't magically transform it into a balance-laden meta with all sorts of possibilities etc. We can't ban Excadrill and expect everything to be hunky-dory or exactly what you expect. The enormous banlist was a result of a few people having overblown egos and "OH GOD THE THINGS I WANT TO USE JUST CAN'T HANDLE THIS". Newsflash; the things you want to use clearly aren't viable, then. It's not like VGC (or older metagames, remember how they only banned completely unstoppable things like RBY Mewtwo?) has ever struggled as a result.

We should only be banning inherently broken mechanics, and I adhere to this (notice how nothing is banned in NU anymore; Jynx wasn't broken and still isn't). As an example, Moody is an inherently broken mechanic; nothing can stop a Pokemon with Moody given enough boosts or extremely small chances. Moody is broken, Blaziken is not.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pachy View Post
No. Just no. The problem is that Uber often bans SUPER EFFECTIVE as if it's BROKEN. Sorry, but I think nothing should be banned unless it absolutely has to be; I want to respect the intent of Game Freak too, because long drawn out battles really suck as much as short ones where you get slaughtered, or do the slaughtering.
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Originally Posted by Pachy View Post
I'm so for this. Anything to undermine Smogon's tiers is OK in my book. I feel like we deprive ourselves of what GF intended by overbanning things, and that smogon's tier system is WAY TOO HEAVY on the top and bottom. Seriously, look at Ubers and NU, they're the largest tiers.
I agree with the general intent of the first post (bar the latter bit because I don't know what you're saying at all and also the first part because the Uber tier does not ban anything) and disagree vehemently with the abysmal understanding going on in the second. Why does undermining Smogon's tiering mean anything? "WAY TOO HEAVY" means absolutely nothing in context, because you can use literally any Pokemon in the entire game in Ubers. The list of Pokemon only usable there (it's a banlist, not even necessarily considered a tier) means little, since a lot of the most popular Pokemon in that metagame are OU, even. NU is also large because we can't reasonably develop another tier and have a decent playerbase for both. Also, PU would likely be incredibly variant and uncompetitive because of the nature of using nothing but ****** mons.

anyway tl;dr I'm not participating if you guys plan on banning everything.
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  #155    
Old April 18th, 2013 (2:49 PM).
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    I guess there will be always two schools of thoughts when it comes to tierings, people who think like Pachy and Vrai [I disagree with the first part of Vrais post completely but it's just opposing views really] and people like myself [and some others, a friend of mine form Smogon shares the same ideas], that offense can never be made 'un-viable' form bans and it's the offensive player's responsibility to plan out and strategically weaken certain links of a stall team so one mon can break through, rather than just throwing a landorus keldeo tyranitar at it and 6KOing everything when the SpDef Celebi gets owned by Landorus U-Turn. Anyways I just don't see PC OU as a success, maybe im being pessimistic but it didn't work out the first time and I'm not sure the site has the resources [player knowledge-wise] to make it a reality, sorry. I think everyone should just try to get good at smogon tiers but not shy away from any one of them bc they think its bad because of whatever theyve heard.
      #156    
    Old April 18th, 2013 (4:29 PM).
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    Well vrai last time we did this, we actually unbanned basically everything bar cover legends and Arceus, Mewtwo etc trying to make it so not every last little thing was banned and to open up some options for all play styles (iirc we even allowed Drizzle Swim or some form of it ? Maybe one sser per team i forgot). That metagame WAS very balanced, sure a couple of things like Doexys and Shaymin-S werent but yeah. However all that happened was people like Syndrome trolled and people didnt even want to try it, that is why it failed last time and why as nica said "i got pissed off" lol.

    Idk maybe that would be a good starting point again ? But with Deo and Shaymin banned too and stuff like Thundy-I, Exca, Blaze, Manaphy etc all unbanned.

    Anti makes an excellent point though, people need to actually stick to this or it will fail once more.

    I also agree with Karps point of view, you really should have to think about breaking through teams and not just to quote him "throw Tar Keldeo and Landy at things" or hell just using something with base 140+ attack. I think that is what makes a balances metagame more than anything. These days you literally dont even have to use your brain, just click the strongest STAB move and watch things die.
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      #157    
    Old April 18th, 2013 (7:16 PM).
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    I think we need a unified vision of how bans etc. would work (practically but especially philosophically) before we can do our own metagame. Otherwise it's just going to be like Congress or something.

    Going to voice opposition to the idea of altering base stats etc. HUGELY opening pandora's box and that's not even getting into issues or purity or whatever. "slippery slope is a logical fallacy" yeah okay but seriously there are so many things I would change if I could, how could we possibly make that focused let alone reach consensus on what should be altered.

    (Emphasis on consensus because this is small enough that that really should be the ideal if we do it.)

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by fire fly is 4x stealth rock weak you know
    Anyways I just don't see PC OU as a success, maybe im being pessimistic but it didn't work out the first time and I'm not sure the site has the resources [player knowledge-wise] to make it a reality, sorry. I think everyone should just try to get good at smogon tiers but not shy away from any one of them bc they think its bad because of whatever theyve heard.
    So I think the bold part is important.

    Also just throwing this out there: there are fundamental limits to a forum-specific metagame that involve interactions between each other. I remember playing BW vs. wolf enough that we knew each others' teams, playing style (not team style but execution), etc. and while this was fun I feel like we would have a hard time actually making sense of the "metagame." Basically I'm suggesting that the scale might be an issue.

    EDIT: Also I think it's awesome that so many people are posting, that was the purpose of the thread in many respects!
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      #158    
    Old April 18th, 2013 (9:33 PM).
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    Alright, I think it's time I provided input in this thread. I'll break it down I guess. I don't know how much I have to say but we'll see where my post takes me:
    • First off, I'd like to talk about what Anti just said. The scale of our player-base is extremely small. While I understand this is a tier list created for PC's use and PC's use only, it's basically impossible to get a feel for what a metagame is on such a small scale. Our server is full of people at the moment (27), but honestly, looking through the list of people here, I can't imagine more than 30% would be willing to stick it out with this project until XY comes out (which is when I assume we'd stop and / or restart the whole process with XY mons, probably after seeing how the real metagame plays out of course). I don't think we entirely have enough people to practically do this. Especially considering how much thought has to go into the creation of a team in the first place, we'll probably end up battling with the same three teams over and over and we'll eventually learn each others' teams / strats until it's just not relevant to testing anymore.
    • Second, I personally don't know how dedicated to this I could be. I have a couple feelings on how my participation will play out. First, I'd probably start out making one team, and from that never make a team again because of how "difficult" and time consuming the process is. Not to mention I've been away from BW2 basically entirely and I don't even know what the **** a Thundurus-I is. While I'd love to be more dedicated, I'm currently going through one of the most stressful events I think I'll ever go through and I can't be sure I'll be entirely focused on this project with my free time. Sure, summer is coming up and I'm out of school on May 1st, but I've actually managed to secure a summer job which is cool. When thinking about participating in these kinds of projects, I tend to forget I have a lot of other **** going on in my life that I just overlook because I get overly excited about something.
    • Third, I honestly feel like we should focus on tiers other than NU / OU for a bit and see how that goes. I'm personally very interested in UU (because a couple of my favorite pokemon lie in that tier aka Slowbro / Zapdos / Scrafty). LC is also extremely fun, even though Eviolite ruined it. While I think Eviolite removed some of the charm of the tier, it definitely added another layer of strategy that really wasn't there before, making it a semi-viable tier in my eyes. It's not longer priority / gligar / oran berries. I mean, I liked that, but now it's a bit more "real". RU seems interesting to say the least and I could get behind it perhaps.
    • Lastly, if you guys do decide to go through and create this whole tier list thing, I'm not saying I won't contribute because I'd like to. I just can't guarantee I'll stick through it all the way. When I came back in January to PC, I came back because of XY. I had no desire to play BW again. It's very hard for me to get back into things because of how BW2 changed things rather significantly (at least to me it seems like quite a bit has changed). So if we end up creating a metagame, I don't really have a new metagame to learn, do I? I'd be helping create it. (Chimecho OU, yes?)

    /End
      #159    
    Old April 18th, 2013 (10:03 PM).
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      Well what am I doing here? @.@

      I've kind of gotten back some of my interest into competitive battling and will be willing to stick around (for real, probably) if this forum can get back on its feet. Currently I'm trying to regain what little skill I had before.

      As for my thoughts on whether we should go for our own metagame I think we can do it provided people actually contribute. BW OU is a miserable sack of garbage so there's no way in hell we should play that but I feel with a few major tweaks we can have a creative and easy to get into metagame in which everyone can play until XY come out. I think we should unban some of the more controversial stuff like Blaziken while keeping the general Uber banlist (I mean stuff like Mewtwo/Kyogre/Arceus are 100% broken in OU). We also need to make it unique, there's no point in playing BW OU 2.0. We need to differentiate it somehow. I have a few ideas like banning auto-weather (I will make a case for this when the time comes) but we'll leave that to when we actually decide to build it. Basically with enough contribution it can be done, say 10-15 people playing it and 5-6 "council" members, we can build a framework before getting more people in on it. 6 months is longer then you think and it will take Smogon a bit to iron out XY.

      But I agree that we should not ban too much, I feel we as members should try to make our PC OU contain elements of what we liked in DP OU but accept that BW OU is not DP OU and will never be. How to do this...I have no idea.

      If people are against that however, I think the most valid option is BW UU. Currently or so I've read, the members of Smogon seem to think it's in a state of perfect balance (think Pre-Latias DP OU or Post-Mence OU) so it's really damn fun to play. It allows all play-styles and most of it...there's no centralization. Gimmicks can work and you don't see Ninetales and Politoed on every team.

      tl;dr I'm all for PC OU, it can work imo. If not try BW UU, it's the best of a sorry bunch by far.
        #160    
      Old April 19th, 2013 (9:51 AM).
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      Quote:
      Originally Posted by Anti View Post
      Also just throwing this out there: there are fundamental limits to a forum-specific metagame that involve interactions between each other. I remember playing BW vs. wolf enough that we knew each others' teams, playing style (not team style but execution), etc. and while this was fun I feel like we would have a hard time actually making sense of the "metagame." Basically I'm suggesting that the scale might be an issue.
      Now that I'm reminded of this problem, I'm not very keen on reviving the project. I guess this wouldn't be an issue if we had a decent sized group that is actively trying out different things in the metagame, but I have my doubts on if people will remain interested. I could start up a poll to see who would be willing to do that, but actions speak louder than words.
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        #161    
      Old April 19th, 2013 (10:15 AM).
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      Honestly, if we're going to commit to this, I honestly think people need some motivation. And by motivation, I mean that if you're signing up and are saying you are going to contribute, you damn sure better do it. Maybe infractions as warnings like you're doing for the Weekly Tournaments. If you say you are going to commit, then stick to your word.
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        #162    
      Old April 19th, 2013 (3:19 PM).
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        I don't think infractions are needed, this isn't as serious as a tournament where one person can screw up the entire system. I think there is enough interest to warrant a try at this, admittedly in the past it didn't work but I have a feeling people will try this time. Most people are sick of current metas anyway.
          #163    
        Old April 19th, 2013 (5:59 PM).
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          Mantinefan18 ran some analytics....theyre not lookin good



          Also infractions is kind of escalating it lol
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            #164    
          Old April 19th, 2013 (6:30 PM).
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          Quote:
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          Mantinefan18 ran some analytics....theyre not lookin good



          Also infractions is kind of escalating it lol
          This is just the truth of the matter at the moment. While I'm certainly a victim of non-battling chat for 90% of what I talk about, I think my frequency of battle chat now has increased quite a bit. I have noticed though the chat often diverges into something else pretty shortly after. I do want to thank those of you who actually helped me earlier with my UU team though (specifically Vrai). Dunno if he'll even read this here, but he battled me twice in a row to help me test changes to my team which helped a lot.

          Anyway, I'll be starting a UU 8 man tournament that will start tomorrow so if you're honestly interested in joining, please do and actually battle. :x

          Also, I agree. Infractions are a bit harsh. If everyone is on the server already, perhaps a timed mute to that person would be fair enough.
            #165    
          Old April 19th, 2013 (6:37 PM).
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          Let me remind everyone that the major problem we had previously in the past (and for a good while) was establishing a good-sized community.

          We have that. Just not in the forums, but on the server. We finally have a community, now. So all is not lost when planning for tournies and whatnot, since a lot of the time, the tournies end up finishing through to the end instead of just being dead with no one participating (as far as I know).

          The only problem we have now is just re-establishing the competitive environment, which shouldn't be so much of a problem, but let it happen gradually.

          /2cents
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            #166    
          Old April 19th, 2013 (7:08 PM).
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          Quote:
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          Mantinefan18 ran some analytics....theyre not lookin good

          It's an off-topic chat. What do you expect?

          Quote:
          Originally Posted by Wolflare View Post
          The battle server doesn't take away much activity from BC. They've become separate entities over the years, and the server is no longer a chatroom for BC regulars, but as an alternative to the official PC Chat. Battling and its related topics are rarely discussed on the server, and plenty of people that visit the server don't battle at all.
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          Just to add on, the battle server isn't really connected with BC anymore. Yes, it's a battle server, but it has always been a chatroom first and foremost. Off-topic discussions take place there, so I don't really see why it's a crime for non-battlers to be there. Now, I would understand your point in regards to the forum, because BC exclusively hosts only discussion related to battling. However, I doubt that people disinterested in battling have been posting here. The battle server does represent some of PC's battle community, but obviously not all.
          I've seen battling talked about sometimes, and it could be more prevalent. However, BC is meant for battling discussion, while the server is for off-topic discussion. It's always been like this. I don't see the problem.
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            #167    
          Old May 3rd, 2013 (7:15 AM). Edited May 3rd, 2013 by wolf.
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          Here's another one of my ideas. I have been thinking about making a clan that promotes a friendly atmosphere for any sort of battler, with a small focus on new players. The clan would be split up into two threads; one in E&G for sign-ups and clan events, the other in BC which would work as a discussion and team building hub. It would essentially be a club that's designed for helping other clan members improve their battling and team building skills. People can post in the discussion thread asking for help like "I have this core of 3 Pokemon, but any ideas on how to make it from here?", but it wouldn't be limited to just that. The discussion thread could host discussions on what team everyone has been currently using, and others can provide assistance on improving it. Clan members would strive to help each other get better by having clan battles that involve providing criticism on their opponent's decisions, asking their opponent why they made a certain move, and so on. Maybe clan members can post strategic battles they've just had; something that others could learn from. The possibilities with this clan are endless, and we could do a lot with it. But in the end, the goal of this clan is to form a close-knit community of battlers, something that BC lacks currently. One could argue that this is what BC should be in the first place, but I'm thinking that having this clan could help form a community from the beginning. We would be taking advantage of that feeling you get from being in a club or clan.

          I've read other opinions about people losing interest in a game, but then successfully reviving their old spark by helping others in a somewhat intimate way. Maybe this could work for me, who knows.

          tl;dr: The gist of it is a clan with a close community that strives to help other out in any way they can, and also provide a friendly atmosphere so new players can come in on the fun. It's like a typical clan, a tutoring corner, a Daily Chit-Chat thread, and a team building club rolled into one.

          "Like" this if you want to support the idea.
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            #168    
          Old May 10th, 2013 (1:56 AM).
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            Just tossing around an idea, we should probably get some small projects going like tier lists for individual tiers. Like ranking the viability of some Pokemon in a tier, I know Smogon does the same and although we shouldn't try to become a Smogon clone nor do we have their playerbase I feel this idea is viable. Although we aren't Smogon, we are a competitive forum and we need to stick to those roots. This only works if people are willing to post and contribute though.

            We could take a tier like NU and UU and slowly formulate a list for it. I mean it's not even trying to create our own tier, it's more like throwing some opinions out and getting some discussion going. What this forum lacks is discussion, don't you remember a few years ago where we had suspect discussions that went on for pages and pages. That kept the forum going, we need something like that. We have a limited but sufficient playerbase for small projects like these.

            Anyways take this with a grain of salt.
              #169    
            Old May 10th, 2013 (2:00 AM).
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            See, while that would be a good idea I just don't think it'd fly. We have the userbase but the majority doesn't play competitive, and viability rankings would be decided by just a small group of people while the others don't understand. I think as a whole we need to motivate everyone more, and then get stuff going. Half the community only plays randbats, so :(
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              #170    
            Old May 10th, 2013 (2:10 AM).
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              Quote:
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              See, while that would be a good idea I just don't think it'd fly. We have the userbase but the majority doesn't play competitive, and viability rankings would be decided by just a small group of people while the others don't understand. I think as a whole we need to motivate everyone more, and then get stuff going. Half the community only plays randbats, so
              I think we have the userbase but it's honestly too lazy (myself included).

              I mean the UU tournament filled up pretty quickly and there were people who were disappointed they didn't get in. If the fifteen or so people decided to work on this 'tier/viability list' we could get somewhere I feel. I mean Smogon's lists probably have about 30 people on them but at times it's less then ten debating. It's a matter of interest and motivation as you said.

              Just saying we need more then simple "Do you x" threads and more discussion-orientated and interesting threads which will keep people coming back.
                #171    
              Old May 10th, 2013 (2:37 AM).
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              Well I guess there's no harm in trying I just think we have to maybe start small? If we did go with viability, what tier would we have viability rankings for? And also would we have mid S, high S etc. NU doesn't have low and high and it works really well imo.

              Also maybe we could have ccat for another tier so you have two diff things going in at once so it doesn't overwealm anyone with one tier.
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                #172    
              Old May 10th, 2013 (2:42 AM).
              Pokedra's Avatar
              Pokedra Pokedra is offline
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                We need more interest before we begin . So yeah I'm hoping some people post to show interest.

                And I guess NU/UU would be the ones to go for as no one plays OU much around here. And yeah I agree no low/mid/top. It should just be tiers, I think UU has a bigger playerbase here though. Apart from ranbats it's probably the most popular.

                Actually we could have a POTD like the server thing and sort one Pokemon a day or something. Like
                Day 1: Pokemon is Snorlax
                Discussion/Votes via post/Sorted
                Day 2: Pokemon is ....
                etc.
                  #173    
                Old May 10th, 2013 (3:04 AM).
                Forever's Avatar
                Forever Forever is offline
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                Idk I think it's pretty even with NU right now, maybe we just need to tighten those interests so we get a general gage. Viability should be for most popular and ccat for the other though imo. We could also do other things like what I host on smogon (next best thing), revive counter that mon and just get creativity going.
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                we're all right where we should be
                  #174    
                Old May 11th, 2013 (11:24 PM).
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                Pokedra Pokedra is offline
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                  Well UU/NU, it's not OU for sure

                  Perhaps give one of these threads a test run? Honestly interest in anything seems pretty low at the moment.
                    #175    
                  Old May 12th, 2013 (4:23 PM).
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                  wolf wolf is offline
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                  By all means, give it a test run. You won't know if it will work unless you try.
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