Supreme Court strikes down Defense of Marriage Act

Focussing on one issue, can, and does, affect other issues as well. Everything is interconnected. There is no single aspect of society that is completely independent of the rest. Even something as simple as the timing of the traffic lights can have drastic effects on the everyday lives of the people.

I don't know how to explain it any better.

But why is this a big deal? Logically, this should have been taken care of some time in the late 1300s, but instead it's in the 21st century and it's distracting from all the real issues.

droomph said:

I don't know how to explain it any better.

But why is this a big deal? Logically, this should have been taken care of some time in the late 1300s, but instead it's in the 21st century and it's distracting from all the real issues.

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To quote a famous line in a movie: Whoever said the human race was logical?

Lots of things should have been taken care of a long time ago. But the simple truth is, they weren't. Maybe you don't see this as a "real" issue, but I can assure you, to those of us who are still not treated as equals under the law, it very much is a "real" issue. Just because something doesn't affect you doesn't mean its importance is invalidated. There are many things that don't affect me personally, but I know that they are issues that are of great concern to some people and their concerns are just as valid, just as important, as mine are.

droomph said:

I don't know how to explain it any better.

But why is this a big deal? Logically, this should have been taken care of some time in the late 1300s, but instead it's in the 21st century and it's distracting from all the real issues.

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This is one of the biggest issues there currently is because it should have been taken care of long ago.

Jay_37040 said:

To quote a famous line in a movie: Whoever said the human race was logical?

Lots of things should have been taken care of a long time ago. But the simple truth is, they weren't. Maybe you don't see this as a "real" issue, but I can assure you, to those of us who are still not treated as equals under the law, it very much is a "real" issue. Just because something doesn't affect you doesn't mean its importance is invalidated. There are many things that don't affect me personally, but I know that they are issues that are of great concern to some people and their concerns are just as valid, just as important, as mine are.

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I'm not saying this as in "this shouldn't be taken care of". In fact, it affects me since I'm "gay" (but I can't act on the feelings because it goes against what I believe sooooooo asexual) and if I ever want to go back I want to keep that option open.

It's just that lately, the world has been disappointing me constantly, and I want to say something about it. I might have worded it a bit weirdly, but I have to say, why was this a big deal? Couldn't we have gone and given them these rights? Haven't you read the Bible? (and let's be honest, that's the only argument against) So why are we wasting time on something that should involve the entirety of say, 5 minutes to pass?

It's not that we shouldn't pay attention to it, it's just that we should pay less, because this is such an obvious answer.

I'm just disappointed in how slow this is taking. Give the people their rights already, you know? It shouldn't take a 11-hour filibuster to prevent something as obvious as "let women have their rights", and even then, a small part of it.

And it should have taken about 35 minutes, one for each state required, for the Equal Rights Amendment to be passed. But instead, they had to extend the limit for it to 10 years. And it still didn't pass.

And it should have taken about a month or so for the Congressmen to gather and declare slavery unconstitutional in 1792. Instead, the nation broke apart into a gore-fest for 5 years, and then it took 100 years for slavery to, in practice, end.

These types of things. I don't want to hear about them on the news, because they are so obvious that they should just pass the Congress unnoticed, like the many other bills that go through Congress unnoticed. Do you understand what I'm saying?

droomph said:

I'm not saying this as in "this shouldn't be taken care of". In fact, it affects me since I'm "gay" (but I can't act on the feelings because it goes against what I believe sooooooo asexual) and if I ever want to go back I want to keep that option open.

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No, if you self-identify as gay, or in other words that you are emotionally and physically attracted to people of the same sex, you are gay. You just choose not to act on your feelings, which is perfectly fine. Whatever it is that makes you happy. However, I should clarify that being asexual means that you have no physical attraction for anyone, physically or emotionally.

droomph said:

It's just that lately, the world has been disappointing me constantly, and I want to say something about it.

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The easy way to solve that is to not have any expectations. We always get disappointed when we expect something to happen, or not to happen. If you let go of your expectations, you'll no longer be disappointed. It's also less stressful that way.

droomph said:

Couldn't we have gone and given them these rights?

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Of course, as was said before, we could have had these rights ages ago. But because until recently opinion of gay people has been so negative, society has effectively relegated us to second-class citizenship. It's improving, but not fast enough, and it's sad to say (but true) the biggest stumbling block preventing us from attaining those rights is religion.

droomph said:

Haven't you read the Bible? (and let's be honest, that's the only argument against).

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I read it. It's not for me. Besides which, I have to ask, which version of the 100 or so different versions of the bible are you referring to? The bible has been translated so many different times and interpreted in so many different ways that I doubt anyone truly knows what was originally written all those centuries ago. Most serious theologians are in agreement, however, that the bible passages used to condemn homosexuality have nothing to do with homosexuality at all.

You could cite me any verse in the bible condemning homosexuality, and I could provide you with a different, perfectly acceptable, interpretation of that same verse. Romans, Genesis, Leviticus, any of the so-called clobber passages, they all can be interpreted to have nothing to do with homosexuality at all. It really does depend on an individual's interpretation. That is why there are so many different denominations, different interpretations. Some denominations of Christianity have no problem with homosexuality, for instance, while others do. It's interpretation. If you wish to discuss the bible with me further, though, I would ask that you PM me, or Skype me, and I will be happy to discuss it with you.

But any way, suffice it to say, I'm an atheist. I prefer to believe in myself and the rest of humanity rather than some supposed deity. Even if there was a God of some sort, responsible for all of creation and life on this rather insignificant planet, I seriously doubt it would have the time or the energy to give two hoots about what two people do in the privacy of their own bedrooms.

droomph said:

So why are we wasting time on something that should involve the entirety of say, 5 minutes to pass?

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Because so many are standing in the way, and the majority of them cite their religious beliefs for doing so. There are some in government who even believe that homosexuality should be illegal, and all homosexual acts should be prosecuted and result in imprisonment of those found guilty. That's why it's so difficult, and that's why so much time is being spent on this. You're right, it could be solved in five minutes. But it won't because of anti-gay prejudice.

droomph said:

It's not that we shouldn't pay attention to it, it's just that we should pay less, because this is such an obvious answer.

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Obvious to you and me, not so for others.

Bluerang1 said:

I liked DOMA :(

I wanted DOMA and DOCU (Civil Unions) so they can have the same benefits of marriage and it wouldn't be a big deal as it wouldn't be called marriage.

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I don't know how you could logically say that. "I like unlawful discrimination of certain groups of people"?

Livewire said:

I don't know how you could logically say that. "I like unlawful discrimination of certain groups of people"?

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That's the key, logic has nothing to do with it. That type of argument, that people who are gay should have civil unions, but not marriage, is a selfish argument. It's one that says: this institution belongs to me and you can't be included. It's the exact same logic that claimed the right to be able to sit at the front of the bus, but those black people, they had to sit at the back. Couldn't let those black people have the same privileged that the white folks had, now could they? I don't know. It leaves me shaking my head, honestly, that that type of mentality still exists.

I am very happy that DOMA has finally been struck down. It's a small victory for the LGBT community and for me, I'll take any victory I can get.

However, I do agree that religion is still a great wall in the fight for LGBT rights. Religion has been part of the US since the discover of the actual continent by the Europeans to the rest of the world. Religious beliefs and customs, mainly those of the Christian sects, have been passed down through the ages. I believe that because religion has such a strong foundation within the US, that it takes ages for the LGBT community to be able to obtain rights. It's through the passing down of the religious beliefs from parents to offspring that reluctance to pass laws that support and protect the LGBT community exists.

Many might think that not all people are religious, some are even atheist, but they aren't supporter of LGBT rights. Religion also affects them too. I believe that these feelings come from people's backgrounds. A way a person is raised can influence what they believe in the future. I believe that religious ideas have been passed down through the ages and even though a family may break off from it, the beliefs that they were raised around don't go away. They are still in root inside themselves.

Sorry, for the long rant. Just felt like I had to when I read what was being posted in this thread.

Jay_37040 said:

I read it. It's not for me. Besides which, I have to ask, which version of the 100 or so different versions of the bible are you referring to? The bible has been translated so many different times and interpreted in so many different ways that I doubt anyone truly knows what was originally written all those centuries ago. Most serious theologians are in agreement, however, that the bible passages used to condemn homosexuality have nothing to do with homosexuality at all.

You could cite me any verse in the bible condemning homosexuality, and I could provide you with a different, perfectly acceptable, interpretation of that same verse. Romans, Genesis, Leviticus, any of the so-called clobber passages, they all can be interpreted to have nothing to do with homosexuality at all. It really does depend on an individual's interpretation. That is why there are so many different denominations, different interpretations. Some denominations of Christianity have no problem with homosexuality, for instance, while others do. It's interpretation. If you wish to discuss the bible with me further, though, I would ask that you PM me, or Skype me, and I will be happy to discuss it with you.

But any way, suffice it to say, I'm an atheist. I prefer to believe in myself and the rest of humanity rather than some supposed deity. Even if there was a God of some sort, responsible for all of creation and life on this rather insignificant planet, I seriously doubt it would have the time or the energy to give two hoots about what two people do in the privacy of their own bedrooms.

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One request: stop looking at any reference to "the Bible" as so negative. It's pretty much the same as religious people discriminating against you. I have here implied that the Bible supports equal rights, yet this is what I get:

Jay_37040 said:

I read it. It's not for me. Besides which, I have to ask, which version of the 100 or so different versions of the bible are you referring to? The bible has been translated so many different times and interpreted in so many different ways that I doubt anyone truly knows what was originally written all those centuries ago. Most serious theologians are in agreement, however, that the bible passages used to condemn homosexuality have nothing to do with homosexuality at all.

You could cite me any verse in the bible condemning homosexuality, and I could provide you with a different, perfectly acceptable, interpretation of that same verse. Romans, Genesis, Leviticus, any of the so-called clobber passages, they all can be interpreted to have nothing to do with homosexuality at all. It really does depend on an individual's interpretation. That is why there are so many different denominations, different interpretations. Some denominations of Christianity have no problem with homosexuality, for instance, while others do. It's interpretation. If you wish to discuss the bible with me further, though, I would ask that you PM me, or Skype me, and I will be happy to discuss it with you.

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I think the saying is true: there are prejudiced people of every race, ethnicity, and walk of life. Maybe you're one of them. Think about it…and try to correct it. Think about how their view.

I know that was off topic, but your rudeness in response to my off-handed remark about the Bible and religion warrants it, and additionally, regardless of whether I was proving you wrong or strengthening your point, you condemn the Bible blindly.

droomph said:

I know that was off topic, but your rudeness in response to my off-handed remark about the Bible and religion warrants it, and additionally, regardless of whether I was proving you wrong or strengthening your point, you condemn the Bible blindly.

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It doesn't help that many interpretations/translations of the bible have blindly condemned many of us for centuries. Do you expect many of us to hold the same respect for the bible as you do or to be civil towards it?

He condemned the passages in the Bible that condemn homosexuality, rather than the Bible itself, and then he offered up an explanation stating that those same passages in the Bible can be interpreted in a way that does not condemn homosexuality or even relate to it at all, oops. Don't mistake him for being rude when he was clearly offering a different viewpoint on the situation.

Harlequin said:

He condemned the passages in the Bible that condemn homosexuality, rather than the Bible itself, and then he offered up an explanation stating that those same passages in the Bible can be interpreted in a way that does not condemn homosexuality or even relate to it at all, oops. Don't mistake him for being rude when he was clearly offering a different viewpoint on the situation.

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And what did I say? I said the Bible doesn't support such a thing. I tried to explain my view, but rather he just blindly

you know what, I am disappointed in all of you guys. I wrote that with the intent that maybe you guys would understand that the Bible, in fact, does not condone discrimination, and then you accuse me of interpreting the Bible wrong, and that I should know

something that I said not one sentence earlier said:

that the Bible, in fact, does not condone discrimination,

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what is wrong with all you people?

Just because you're gay doesn't give you free reign to discriminate. You are held to the same standard as everyone else.

That is what equality is. As long as you treat me like this, I am allowed to keep all the rights I feel away from you. You have not proven your will to be equal.

But you know what I'm going to do? I am going to give you all the rights you want. I am a Christian. That is what I do. Do you understand? I do not hate anyone, especially gay people. Islam, Judaism, and all the other religions hold the same view as me.

Thus, don't blame religion or the Bible. please know that.

I'm new to this conversation, and I'd just like to say that I don't understand how Jay was discriminating against religion. He didn't call the bible negative, just that it had multiple interpretations. I think you both were actually talking about the same thing, except he misunderstood and presumed that you believed the bible should give enough standing to "defend the definition of marriage". Let's break dis down.

It's just that lately, the world has been disappointing me constantly, and I want to say something about it. I might have worded it a bit weirdly, but I have to say, why was this a big deal? Couldn't we have gone and given them these rights? Haven't you read the Bible? (and let's be honest, that's the only argument against) So why are we wasting time on something that should involve the entirety of say, 5 minutes to pass?

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This passage tells me that droomph supports gay rights. 1) these rights are deserved, 2) these rights are delayed, and 3) the Bible is the only argument against. I see that gist of his statement being Bible being the only argument against + rights being delayed by the Bible itself = huge waste of time. And he goes on with an example on women's rights and slavery so he didn't misspeak (but believing that would be putting him in bad faith and not cool).

Further on in the thread he says "I wrote that with the intent that maybe you guys would understand that the Bible, in fact, does not condone discrimination", affirming his previous stance while Jay seemed to present his perspective as opposing droomph's while saying "I could provide you with a different, perfectly acceptable, interpretation of that same verse". So it is quite understandable the frustration he feels when "you accuse [him] of interpreting the Bible wrong". And I guess that's why he feels discriminated against, that what he said wasn't read or taken seriously, probably because he is Christian (insert understatement here). Jay agrees with him, but his perspective still taken the wrong way. I don't see a good reason for somebody's opinion to be interpreted as the exact opposite of what it is, it makes you feel undignified, condescended upon, and that you can't be taken seriously. If you said something, and somebody said "no no, you're wrong, this is how it is" and then says the exact same thing, would you not react "dude that's what I just said!"?

So my conclusion: Jay didn't discriminate against religion, but droomph was taken in pretty bad faith. And I think the rest of the people that followed read Jay's but not droomph's posts which makes a bad situation worse. The echo chamber triumphs over careful reading, and one of our posters feels a bit alienated because nobody's taking him seriously. When I read droomph's posts by themselves, I thought "what the hell is he talking about", but when you look at the whole picture, it actually makes a lot of sense. The lesson learned: critical reading beats skimming.

From the tone of Jay's post, I really do think droomph is overreacting. It is not wise to take offense at other opinions, which was basically what Jay offered.

Anyway, this is a huge step forward for the country, but more progress is needed.

Dullstar said:

From the tone of Jay's post, I really do think droomph is overreacting. It is not wise to take offense at other opinions, which was basically what Jay offered.

Anyway, this is a huge step forward for the country, but more progress is needed.

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At least the country is improving. :D
Hopefully more victories for the LGBT community will come.

Dullstar said:

From the tone of Jay's post, I really do think droomph is overreacting. It is not wise to take offense at other opinions, which was basically what Jay offered.

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if you had actually read my post, you'll see why droomph was pissed off. if nobody's going to read my post, i'll put something here: Jay did not offer an "other" opinion, but the very same one. spooked?

Well, if I'm going to be accused of being rude, I might as well go all out then...

I'll put my rant in a spoiler tag so no one has to read it if they don't want to.



Okay, end of rant.

Jay_37040 said:

Well, if I'm going to be accused of being rude, I might as well go all out then...

I'll put my rant in a spoiler tag so no one has to read it if they don't want to.

Spoiler:

Religion and me do not get along. At all. I refuse, now, to even step foot inside a church my disdain for it is that strong. Quite simply, I refuse to be tolerant of intolerance. I have experienced way too many religious people, both lay people and church officials, condemning me for being gay and using the bible to do it with. I have had representatives from the Mormon church come to my door and verbally blast me, telling me I'm going to hell because I am going against Gods laws. I have had a Baptist minister tell me to get out of his church because he found out I was gay and he would not tolerate the presence of "one of those people" inside the house of God. I have had Catholic activists shouting at me from across the street while attending a Pride event in my home town. As a consequence, every single day I walk outside my door I cannot hold my boyfriends hand or give him a quick kiss to say hello or goodbye when we part, like I see heterosexual couples do... all because he is too afraid to do so. It makes me extremely sad that I cannot show him the same love, except in the privacy of our home, all because of the actions of the religious groups that have acted against the LGBT community and stirred up such negative feeling amongst our fellow citizens.

This is the type of environment that anti-gay bigotry perpetrated by religion has created, all because they believe the bible tells them that homosexuality is wrong.

Droomph's interpretation of the bible is that the bible does not discriminate against gay people. I applaud him for that. But unfortunately his is just a single voice in a chorus of millions spewing the exact opposite of what he believes. Based on my personal experiences, I can categorically state that religion, by and large, does NOT tolerate homosexuality. Not the Catholics, not the Baptists, and not the Protestants. Not the Mormons and not the Muslims. They all equally condemn homosexuality, and most actively seek to deny gays and lesbians equal rights... based on their interpretations of their holy books.

Okay, end of rant.

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okay let me just state here what I said somewhere else.

If you don't get along with religion, that's fine with me.

But if because and only because of that, you don't try to understand, then I am not okay with that.

What I am trying to say is, stop blaming the Church.

I have shown you that they are not supposed to be advocating discrimination.

Therefore, your hatred of the Church should rather be directed towards the people who run the organization.

Please make that distinction. It will be a lot less painful for people like me who are simply trying to help you.

And please, don't think that most people hate gay people. In fact, most of us are in the "who cares?!" category.

Let's see what could affect a view of the Christian majority "the fastest".

The Westboro Baptist Church? Hell, we complain about them about every month!

But are they the majority? No. They are far from it. They are as much the majority as I am the majority, or you are the majority. It's just that they flip out so hard, everyone notices.

Rick Santorum? The dumb guy who can't form a decent argument? I can still see, in imgur and such, that he is being discussed for his stupid statements.

But is he the majority? No. He is as much the majority as me. The only difference is, he can smoosh his face into more people lives than I can.

Almost all the Republicans "in power"? The ones that make all Republicans look bad?

But don't you know any "sane" Republicans, who are willing to listen to change and reform just as anyone else? In fact, that should be the only kind of people you know, save for a few.

My point is, just because the top few say something, doesn't necessarily mean every one of us agrees.

droomph said:

okay let me just state here what I said somewhere else.

If you don't get along with religion, that's fine with me.

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Slight clarification, I don't get along with religions that don't get along with me. And I get along great with people who are religious, except those who use their beliefs to justify discriminating against me. I'm really a very easy guy to get along with, and am accepting of a lot of people with many different beliefs, even those that are not particularly popular. It really does make for some interesting conversations to be sure.

droomph said:

But if because and only because of that, you don't try to understand, then I am not okay with that.

What I am trying to say is, stop blaming the Church.

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I blame the church, not for their beliefs, but for their actions. It is demanded of me that I take responsibility for my actions, and I believe the same should be true with everyone else, whether they are individuals or groups of people. The church has been responsible for many horrors against the LGBT community, including being indirectly responsible for the many deaths that resulted in the prejudiced actions of their followers.

droomph said:

I have shown you that they are not supposed to be advocating discrimination.

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The church doesn't exactly listen to you though, do they? They have their own agenda so they purposefully ignore you and others like you. You don't contribute to their agenda so you don't really matter to them (except when it comes to passing around the donation plate). That's just the way it is.

droomph said:

Therefore, your hatred of the Church should rather be directed towards the people who run the organization.

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You're right, it should, and it does. But I also lay the blame at the feet of the followers of those church leaders who do not speak up, who blindly follow their church's teachings, who wilfully ignore the plight of those they condemn. The church leadership cannot continue on a path of discrimination unless their followers allow it. And right now, I see that most of the followers not only allow it, they agree with it.

droomph said:

Please make that distinction. It will be a lot less painful for people like me who are simply trying to help you.

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You can help by directly confronting your church leaders on their bigotry. You can gather others of like-minded people to stand up to your church leaders and force them to alter their thinking. The only reason they're given free reign to act as they do is because their followers have been cowed into submission so that they will not cause dissent among the ranks and undermine the church leaders' power.

Right now the voices against the LGBT community from within the church are so loud that they're drowning out the voices that seek to change the church's belief on this issue. What's needed is for your voice to rise above the din so that it is the voice that is heard, and not those spreading hate against the LGBT community.

As I said, I'm intolerant of intolerance. So long as I am shown intolerance, that is what will be given back in return. I'm old enough now that most of my life is behind me, not ahead. I don't have time to treat bigots with kid gloves any more.