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  #26    
Old August 16th, 2013 (4:36 PM).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonoskay View Post
Can someone give me some suggestions for some support Pokemon? In game ive never delt with them much so i really have no clue about support pokemon.

And is there any real effective way to IV train without wanting to blow your brains out?

And do "tiers" actualy mean anything? aside from uber being generaly banned from standard battles , do tournys of these other "tiers happen?
Ferrothorn is one of the best support Pokemon ever, with its good typing and support movepool. Skarmory comes in close:

Ferrothorn:
-Stealth Rock/Spikes
-Leech Seed/Stealth Rock
-Power Whip/Protect/Leech Seed
-Gyro Ball/Thunder Wave
Nature: Relaxed
EVs: 252 HP/48 Def/208 SDef
Item: Leftovers/Shed Shell

Skarmory:
-Spikes/Stealth Rock
-Whirlwind
-Roost
-Brave Bird/Taunt
Nature: Impish/Careful
EVs: 224 HP/252 Def/32 SDef or 224 HP/32 Def/252 SDef
Item: Leftoves/Shed Shell
Ability: Sturdy

Or
-Stealth Rock
-Spikes
-Brave Bird
-Taunt
Nature: Jolly
EVs: 252 HP/4 Def/252 Spe
Item: Custap Berry
Ability: Sturdy

Forretress and Donphan are able to use Rapid Spin to clear away entry hazards while also providing their own:

Forretress:
-Spikes/Stealth Rock
-Rapid Spin
-Gyro Ball/Hidden Power (Ice)
-Volt Switch
Nature: Relaxed/Bold
EVs: 252 HP/252 Def/4 SDef
Item: Leftovers/Shed Shell
Ability: Sturdy

Donphan:
-Stealth Rock
-Earthquake
-Rapid Spin
-Ice Shard
Nature: Impish
EVs: 252 HP/252 Def/4 Spe
Item: Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy

Gliscor is able to take advantage of Poison Heal to act as a physical wall:
-Earthquake
-Substitute
-Toxic
-Protect/Roost/Taunt
Nature: Impish
EVs: 244 HP/40 Def/224 Spe
Item: Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal

Or
-Earthquake
-Taunt/Toxic
-Ice Fang/U-turn
-Protect/Roost
Nature: Impish
EVs: 244 HP/248 Def/16 Spe
Item: Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal

Or
-Substitute
-Baton Pass
-Earthquake
-Swords Dance/Agility/Taunt
Nature: Impish
EVs: 244 HP/40 Def/224 Spe
Item: Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal

Blissey is the best Special wall in OU. Heatran comes in close.

Blissey:
-Stealth Rock/Aromatherapy
-Seismic Toss/Flamethrower
-Softboiled
-Toxic
Nature: Calm
EVs: 4 HP/252 Def/252 SDef
Item: Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure

Or
-Wish
-Protect/Softboiled
-Seismic Toss/Flamethrower
-Toxic
Nature: Calm
EVs: 4 HP/252 Def/252 SDef
Item: Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure

Heatran:
-Lava Plume
-Protect
-Roar
-Stealth Rock/Will-o-Wisp/Toxic
Nature: Calm
EVs: 248 HP/252 SDef/8 Spe
Item: Leftovers

Sableye or Whimsicott can abuse their wide support movepools in conjunction with Prankster to support the team through very annoying means:
Sableye:
-Taunt
-Will-o-Wisp
-Recover
-Foul Play/Night Shade/Snarl
Nature: Calm
EVs: 252 HP/4 Def/252 SDef
Item: Leftovers
Ability: Prankster

Whimsicott:
-Encore
-Leech Seed
-U-turn/Substitute
-Stun Spore/Taunt
Nature: Impish/Bold
EVs: 252 HP/252 Def/4 SDef
Item: Leftovers
Ability: Prankster

There are more supporters but I'll stop here.

Here's a guide on EV training.

The point of the tier system is to see which Pokemon are viable in the standard environment and which aren't. A Pokemon's viability in standard depends on its stats, movepool and/or typing:
-The OverUsed (OU) tier is the standard environment for competitive battling. Any Pokemon below that tier can also be used here, but some Pokemon are more viable than others.
-The UnderUsed (UU) tier is where the Pokemon that aren't used in OU often either because of their stats, typing and/or movepools.
-The RarelyUsed (RU) tier is where the Pokemon that are seldom seen in OU reside.
-The NeverUsed (NU) tier is the bottom of the barrel in competitive battling. The Pokemon there have bad stats, movepools and/or typings that hold them back from the standard environment.
-The Ubers tier is the "banlist" of OU. Pokemon that are deemed too good/overpowered for OU are sent here.
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  #27    
Old August 17th, 2013 (7:38 AM).
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    need help building a competitive team and I know how to EV train it just I cant make a good team I would like help cuz I can't seen to get it right so if some one would help me I would really love it thank you pm me back if anyone can help me
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      #28    
    Old August 17th, 2013 (7:53 AM).
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    PlatinumDude PlatinumDude is offline
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ShiningLust View Post
    need help building a competitive team and I know how to EV train it just I cant make a good team I would like help cuz I can't seen to get it right so if some one would help me I would really love it thank you pm me back if anyone can help me
    One of the basics of team building is synergy. At least some of the Pokemon on the team have to cover each other's weaknesses. Take Ferrothorn and Jellicent for example. Ferrothorn is weak to Fire and Fighting, while Jellicent is weak to Grass, Electric, Dark and Ghost. Ferrothorn resists Jellicent's weaknesses, while Jellicent resists Ferrothorn's weaknesses.
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      #29    
    Old August 17th, 2013 (7:57 AM).
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    ShiningLust ShiningLust is offline
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      ok that kinds helps me but I seen something on YouTube saying something about

      Lead
      Lead Support

      Core#1
      Core#2
      Core#3

      Revenge Killer

      can u tell me how this works
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        #30    
      Old August 17th, 2013 (8:36 AM).
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      PlatinumDude PlatinumDude is offline
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      Quote:
      Originally Posted by ShiningLust View Post
      ok that kinds helps me but I seen something on YouTube saying something about

      Lead
      Lead Support

      Core#1
      Core#2
      Core#3

      Revenge Killer

      can u tell me how this works
      For starters, I'll tell you what the terms mean.

      A lead (or lead support) typically gets the team's strategy going. For example, weather teams lead with Drizzle Politoed, Drought Ninetales, Tyranitar, Hippowdon or Abomasnow to get the needed weather up straight away. Another type of lead is the hazard lead, which gets up entry hazards at the start of the battle. These leads include Aerodactyl, Azelf, Scolipede and Accelgor; thanks to their high Speed, they get hazards up easily before having to take a hit.

      A core is a set of Pokemon working together to accomplish a specific goal. Take the Jellicent/Ferrothorn core I mentioned earlier. They're a core because they resist each other's weaknesses. Another core is the VoltTurn core. This consists of a Pokemon knowing U-turn and another knowing Volt Switch; they use said moves repeatedly to gain momentum throughout the battle. However, a weakness to this core is that Ground Pokemon are immune to Volt Switch. An example of two Pokemon that utilize this strategy are Scizor (who knows U-turn) and Wash Rotom (who knows Volt Switch). It's highly recommended to use entry hazards with this strategy, as it forces switches. A lot.

      A revenge killer is a Pokemon with high Speed, who comes in after a teammate is KOed, then KOs the opponent in return. Some Pokemo with average Speed carry the Choice Scarf to mitigate the Speed issue, like Wash Rotom. Some already fast Pokemon, like Latios, use Choice Scarf to guarantee that they can't be outsped. A revenge killer with no need of Choice Scarf is Dugtrio, who, thanks to its Arena Trap ability, prevents the target from leaving the battle, making it easy pickings.
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        #31    
      Old August 17th, 2013 (9:46 AM).
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      ShiningLust ShiningLust is offline
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        Quote:
        Originally Posted by PlatinumDude View Post
        For starters, I'll tell you what the terms mean.

        A lead (or lead support) typically gets the team's strategy going. For example, weather teams lead with Drizzle Politoed, Drought Ninetales, Tyranitar, Hippowdon or Abomasnow to get the needed weather up straight away. Another type of lead is the hazard lead, which gets up entry hazards at the start of the battle. These leads include Aerodactyl, Azelf, Scolipede and Accelgor; thanks to their high Speed, they get hazards up easily before having to take a hit.

        A core is a set of Pokemon working together to accomplish a specific goal. Take the Jellicent/Ferrothorn core I mentioned earlier. They're a core because they resist each other's weaknesses. Another core is the VoltTurn core. This consists of a Pokemon knowing U-turn and another knowing Volt Switch; they use said moves repeatedly to gain momentum throughout the battle. However, a weakness to this core is that Ground Pokemon are immune to Volt Switch. An example of two Pokemon that utilize this strategy are Scizor (who knows U-turn) and Wash Rotom (who knows Volt Switch). It's highly recommended to use entry hazards with this strategy, as it forces switches. A lot.

        A revenge killer is a Pokemon with high Speed, who comes in after a teammate is KOed, then KOs the opponent in return. Some Pokemo with average Speed carry the Choice Scarf to mitigate the Speed issue, like Wash Rotom. Some already fast Pokemon, like Latios, use Choice Scarf to guarantee that they can't be outsped. A revenge killer with no need of Choice Scarf is Dugtrio, who, thanks to its Arena Trap ability, prevents the target from leaving the battle, making it easy pickings.

        thanks soo much for actually explaning this to me and now i understand alot better thanks soo much
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          #32    
        Old August 17th, 2013 (2:48 PM).
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        sonoskay sonoskay is offline
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          Quote:
          Originally Posted by PlatinumDude View Post
          Ferrothorn is one of the best support Pokemon ever, with its good typing and support movepool. Skarmory comes in close:

          Ferrothorn:
          -Stealth Rock/Spikes
          -Leech Seed/Stealth Rock
          -Power Whip/Protect/Leech Seed
          -Gyro Ball/Thunder Wave
          Nature: Relaxed
          EVs: 252 HP/48 Def/208 SDef
          Item: Leftovers/Shed Shell

          Skarmory:
          -Spikes/Stealth Rock
          -Whirlwind
          -Roost
          -Brave Bird/Taunt
          Nature: Impish/Careful
          EVs: 224 HP/252 Def/32 SDef or 224 HP/32 Def/252 SDef
          Item: Leftoves/Shed Shell
          Ability: Sturdy

          Or
          -Stealth Rock
          -Spikes
          -Brave Bird
          -Taunt
          Nature: Jolly
          EVs: 252 HP/4 Def/252 Spe
          Item: Custap Berry
          Ability: Sturdy

          Forretress and Donphan are able to use Rapid Spin to clear away entry hazards while also providing their own:

          Forretress:
          -Spikes/Stealth Rock
          -Rapid Spin
          -Gyro Ball/Hidden Power (Ice)
          -Volt Switch
          Nature: Relaxed/Bold
          EVs: 252 HP/252 Def/4 SDef
          Item: Leftovers/Shed Shell
          Ability: Sturdy

          Donphan:
          -Stealth Rock
          -Earthquake
          -Rapid Spin
          -Ice Shard
          Nature: Impish
          EVs: 252 HP/252 Def/4 Spe
          Item: Leftovers
          Ability: Sturdy

          Gliscor is able to take advantage of Poison Heal to act as a physical wall:
          -Earthquake
          -Substitute
          -Toxic
          -Protect/Roost/Taunt
          Nature: Impish
          EVs: 244 HP/40 Def/224 Spe
          Item: Toxic Orb
          Ability: Poison Heal

          Or
          -Earthquake
          -Taunt/Toxic
          -Ice Fang/U-turn
          -Protect/Roost
          Nature: Impish
          EVs: 244 HP/248 Def/16 Spe
          Item: Toxic Orb
          Ability: Poison Heal

          Or
          -Substitute
          -Baton Pass
          -Earthquake
          -Swords Dance/Agility/Taunt
          Nature: Impish
          EVs: 244 HP/40 Def/224 Spe
          Item: Toxic Orb
          Ability: Poison Heal

          Blissey is the best Special wall in OU. Heatran comes in close.

          Blissey:
          -Stealth Rock/Aromatherapy
          -Seismic Toss/Flamethrower
          -Softboiled
          -Toxic
          Nature: Calm
          EVs: 4 HP/252 Def/252 SDef
          Item: Leftovers
          Ability: Natural Cure

          Or
          -Wish
          -Protect/Softboiled
          -Seismic Toss/Flamethrower
          -Toxic
          Nature: Calm
          EVs: 4 HP/252 Def/252 SDef
          Item: Leftovers
          Ability: Natural Cure

          Heatran:
          -Lava Plume
          -Protect
          -Roar
          -Stealth Rock/Will-o-Wisp/Toxic
          Nature: Calm
          EVs: 248 HP/252 SDef/8 Spe
          Item: Leftovers

          Sableye or Whimsicott can abuse their wide support movepools in conjunction with Prankster to support the team through very annoying means:
          Sableye:
          -Taunt
          -Will-o-Wisp
          -Recover
          -Foul Play/Night Shade/Snarl
          Nature: Calm
          EVs: 252 HP/4 Def/252 SDef
          Item: Leftovers
          Ability: Prankster

          Whimsicott:
          -Encore
          -Leech Seed
          -U-turn/Substitute
          -Stun Spore/Taunt
          Nature: Impish/Bold
          EVs: 252 HP/252 Def/4 SDef
          Item: Leftovers
          Ability: Prankster

          There are more supporters but I'll stop here.



          The point of the tier system is to see which Pokemon are viable in the standard environment and which aren't. A Pokemon's viability in standard depends on its stats, movepool and/or typing:
          -The OverUsed (OU) tier is the standard environment for competitive battling. Any Pokemon below that tier can also be used here, but some Pokemon are more viable than others.
          -The UnderUsed (UU) tier is where the Pokemon that aren't used in OU often either because of their stats, typing and/or movepools.
          -The RarelyUsed (RU) tier is where the Pokemon that are seldom seen in OU reside.
          -The NeverUsed (NU) tier is the bottom of the barrel in competitive battling. The Pokemon there have bad stats, movepools and/or typings that hold them back from the standard environment.
          -The Ubers tier is the "banlist" of OU. Pokemon that are deemed too good/overpowered for OU are sent here.
          Ill consider some of those Pokemon.

          I already found a guide on how to EV train and have started while its a pain i can do it... But how do i manage IVs? After breeding a few Pokemon, then leveling them giving them as few EVs as possible every IV calculator i found seems... unreliable... and the only method i found to do it seems... insanely time consuming.

          Ok so there are not any just UU tornies or anything? all you said i had managed to pick up but ive seen people say how they made an all RU team or what ever. and in the tier guide it sounded like NU pokemon might have thier own tornies sometimes..

          While i know NU tier pokemon are not often used can a decent team be made from these Pokemon that can compete against OU Pokemon? After all my favorite pokemon are NU it seems... and if NU pokemon are truely vastly worse than OU then it seems to me there is no real reason to compete... I want to use my favorite pokemon.. not "the best" pokemon.
            #33    
          Old August 17th, 2013 (3:10 PM).
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          Griffinbane Griffinbane is offline
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          You CAN play with NU stuff in OU, it's just that the NU stuff tends to be overclassed, overpowered, not bulky enough, etc. to be effective in OU. The tiers were made in order to try to keep things as balanced as possible, that's why everything got sorted into tiers. If you can figure out a way to bring out the best of your favorites in OU, power to you. I've used stuff like Ampharos and Gardevoir in OU before. It really depends on your strategy and you utilizing the best of your Pokemon's stats and abilities.

          As for IVs, if you're starting completely from scratch, you have to catch Pokemon until you find two parents with at least 1 IV at 31, and breed them together until you get offspring with at least 2 IVs at 31. Breed the offspring together until you get something with at least 3 IVs at 31, keep continuing until you get something like 4 IVs at 31 (if you're super lucky). Getting babies with at least 4 perfect IVs is very difficult, even if you're using perfect parents. Most people skip this step and trade for parents.
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            #34    
          Old August 17th, 2013 (7:51 PM).
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          WingedDragon WingedDragon is offline
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            Can Someone examine what I am doing wrong. Its really frustrating that I cant even get in 5 turns before I lose.

            http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/doublesvgc2013-45693154

            http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/doublesvgc2013-45685706

            http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/doublesvgc2013-45686752

            This is the current team

            Cresselia @ Mental Herb
            Trait: Levitate
            EVs: 160 SDef / 96 Def / 252 HP
            Sassy Nature
            IVs: 0 Spd
            - Trick Room
            - Protect
            - Psyshock
            - Ice Beam

            Scrafty @ Focus Sash
            Trait: Moxie
            EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
            Brave Nature
            IVs: 0 Spd
            - Fake Out
            - Drain Punch
            - Crunch
            - Protect

            Conkeldurr @ Flame Orb
            Trait: Guts
            EVs: 252 Atk / 44 Def / 212 HP
            Brave Nature
            IVs: 0 Spd
            - Drain Punch
            - Mach Punch
            - Rock Slide
            - Detect

            Tyranitar @ Choice Scarf
            Trait: Sand Stream
            EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
            Jolly Nature
            - Crunch
            - Rock Slide
            - Ice Punch
            - Superpower

            Amoonguss @ Sitrus Berry
            Trait: Regenerator
            EVs: 172 SDef / 252 HP / 84 Def
            Sassy Nature
            - Rage Powder
            - Protect
            - Giga Drain
            - Spore

            Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
            Trait: Iron Barbs
            Shiny: Yes
            EVs: 252 Def / 4 Atk / 252 HP
            Relaxed Nature
            IVs: 0 Spd
            - Leech Seed
            - Power Whip
            - Protect
            - Gyro Ball
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              #35    
            Old August 17th, 2013 (8:23 PM).
            Griffinbane's Avatar
            Griffinbane Griffinbane is offline
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            Battle 1: You got unlucky with the double critical on Cresselia. As for Amoongus, I don't understand why you used Rage Powder instead of putting Breloom to sleep. Breloom was the dangerous one, Reuniclus can't do much to Scrafty, and Amoongus absorbs hits like a boss. Letting Breloom put you to sleep pretty much killed you.

            Battle 2: Good battle, bad luck there. I just realized your team is badly fighting weak, especially against opposing Scrafty. That'll need to be fixed.

            Battle 3: Same as battle 2.

            One major thing: You don't seem to use Protect all that often. That might be a key factor. Overusing it will let your opponent predict your moves easily, underutilizing it will hurt you hard.
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              #36    
            Old August 17th, 2013 (8:25 PM). Edited August 17th, 2013 by WingedDragon.
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              Quote:
              Originally Posted by Griffinbane View Post
              Battle 1: You got unlucky with the double critical on Cresselia. As for Amoongus, I don't understand why you used Rage Powder instead of putting Breloom to sleep. Breloom was the dangerous one, Reuniclus can't do much to Scrafty, and Amoongus absorbs hits like a boss. Letting Breloom put you to sleep pretty much killed you.

              Battle 2: Good battle, bad luck there. I just realized your team is badly fighting weak, especially against opposing Scrafty. That'll need to be fixed.

              Battle 3: Same as battle 2.
              I didnt use Spore because it was much slower. There are no IVs or Evs invested in its speed

              What do you recommend I do. Right now I am changing people again
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                #37    
              Old August 17th, 2013 (8:48 PM).
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              Griffinbane Griffinbane is offline
              I hate Smeargle.
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              Well you've got it mixed up then. Amoongus is faster than Breloom in Trick Room. Don't forget that the attack order reverses in Trick Room. In turn 3, if you HAD used Spore, Breloom would either be forced to use Mach Punch (Scrafty would be dead but can't help this), then it goes Zzz. Then in turn 4, you could have used Spore AGAIN and put his other 'mon to sleep. Your opponent would be crippled at that point, hoping for a 1 turn sleep. If your opponent decided to switch, you could have Spored THAT, as well.
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                #38    
              Old August 17th, 2013 (11:07 PM).
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              KorpiklaaniVodka KorpiklaaniVodka is offline
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                Quote:
                Originally Posted by Griffinbane View Post
                In turn 3, if you HAD used Spore, Breloom would either be forced to use Mach Punch (Scrafty would be dead but can't help this), then it goes Zzz. Then in turn 4, you could have used Spore AGAIN and put his other 'mon to sleep. Your opponent would be crippled at that point, hoping for a 1 turn sleep. If your opponent decided to switch, you could have Spored THAT, as well.
                Did you forget about the Sleep Clause? No more than one Pokemon can be put to sleep by your own moves.
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                  #39    
                Old August 17th, 2013 (11:35 PM).
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                Tyrael Tyrael is offline
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                Quote:
                Originally Posted by Crobatrulez20 View Post
                Did you forget about the Sleep Clause? No more than one Pokemon can be put to sleep by your own moves.
                Not in VGC play. Sleep clause only goes for Smogon related things, which is mainly single battles.
                  #40    
                Old August 19th, 2013 (6:44 AM).
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                Griffinbane Griffinbane is offline
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                As Dyl said, there is no sleep clause in VGC. That's why Breloom and Amoongus are so flippin' common.
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                  #41    
                Old August 22nd, 2013 (4:53 PM).
                Alen02 Alen02 is offline
                   
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                  I've been trying to use a Glaceon online and I just have a hard time competing with it.. I need some ideas because I want to use it in OU, but I just don't know how to.

                  Anyway here's a set I made that was very effective against Latios, Latias, and Garchomp.

                  Ice Body
                  Modest
                  252 SPA
                  252 Speed
                  4 SPD
                  Choice Scarft

                  Ice Beam
                  Shadow Ball
                  HP Fighting
                  Wish


                  I'm willing to make a new team just for it, but I don't want to use any legendaries or Ubers.
                    #42    
                  Old August 22nd, 2013 (5:55 PM).
                  PlatinumDude's Avatar
                  PlatinumDude PlatinumDude is offline
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                  Quote:
                  Originally Posted by Alen02 View Post
                  I've been trying to use a Glaceon online and I just have a hard time competing with it.. I need some ideas because I want to use it in OU, but I just don't know how to.

                  Anyway here's a set I made that was very effective against Latios, Latias, and Garchomp.

                  Ice Body
                  Modest
                  252 SPA
                  252 Speed
                  4 SPD
                  Choice Scarft

                  Ice Beam
                  Shadow Ball
                  HP Fighting
                  Wish


                  I'm willing to make a new team just for it, but I don't want to use any legendaries or Ubers.
                  Your best bet for using Glaceon in OU is on a Hail team to give its Blizzard 100% accuracy, . Tbh, Glaceon, along with other pure Ice Pokemon, are terrible in OU due to their common weaknesses. But if you really want to use Glaceon in OU, change the nature to Timid; with Modest, Choice Scarf Glaceon is still outsped by non-Choice Scarf Pokemon with 108 Speed or higher, like Infernape and Starmie.
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                    #43    
                  Old August 22nd, 2013 (11:14 PM).
                  KorpiklaaniVodka's Avatar
                  KorpiklaaniVodka KorpiklaaniVodka is offline
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                    Quote:
                    Originally Posted by Alen02 View Post
                    I've been trying to use a Glaceon online and I just have a hard time competing with it.. I need some ideas because I want to use it in OU, but I just don't know how to.

                    Anyway here's a set I made that was very effective against Latios, Latias, and Garchomp.

                    Ice Body
                    Modest
                    252 SPA
                    252 Speed
                    4 SPD
                    Choice Scarft

                    Ice Beam
                    Shadow Ball
                    HP Fighting
                    Wish


                    I'm willing to make a new team just for it, but I don't want to use any legendaries or Ubers.
                    HP Ground > HP Fighting, and use a timid nature. And I guess the fact that you don't want to use legends is the reason you don't use Kyurem over Glaceon, because there really is no reason to use the ice fox over the dragon.
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                      #44    
                    Old August 24th, 2013 (11:31 PM).
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                    WingedDragon WingedDragon is offline
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                        #45    
                      Old August 25th, 2013 (7:46 AM).
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                      Griffinbane Griffinbane is offline
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                      The same place you HAVE been posting them. Just keep them together in one thread.
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                        #46    
                      Old August 30th, 2013 (9:26 PM). Edited September 2nd, 2013 by Khaotik.
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                      Khaotik Khaotik is offline
                         
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                        I was battling a guy the other day who had a two Pokemon who both had Poison Heal, they were holding Toxic Orbs, so they could heal their health up. They also had substitute, and they would use Protect, so they would gain health after using substitute. I lost hopelessly, and couldn't find a counter against it, is there any sort of counter for that? Or would I just be boned?
                          #47    
                        Old August 30th, 2013 (10:48 PM).
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                        colours colours is offline
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                        Quote:
                        Originally Posted by Khaotik View Post
                        I was battling a guy the other day who had a two Pokemon who both had Poison Heal, they were holding Toxic Orbs, so they could heal their health up. They also had substitute, and they would use Protect, so they would gain health after using substitute. I lost hopelessly, and couldn't find a counter against it, is there any sort of counter for that? Or would I just be boned?
                        I suppose you don't happen to have a pokemon that could phase (Roar, Whirlwind, etc?)? Substitute can only work an x number of times, and phasing sub users just about completely destroys their strategy. Using a fast taunt user (Whimsicott is very infamous for this, as an example. Other noteworthy examples are Sableye as well as Froslass) is also a way to shut down some Pokemon who are known to hide behind a sub, forcing them to be completely open to attacks.I hope this helps~!
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                          #48    
                        Old August 31st, 2013 (1:16 AM).
                        Opposite Day's Avatar
                        Opposite Day Opposite Day is offline
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                          Quote:
                          Originally Posted by Khaotik View Post
                          I was battling a guy the other day who had a two Pokemon who both had Poison Heal, they were holding Toxic Orbs, so they could heal their health up. They also had substitute, and they would use Protect, so they would gain health after using substitute. I lost hopelessly, and couldn't find a counter against it, is there any sort of counter for that? Or would I just be boned?
                          Derk already mentioned phasing, aka forcing them to switch by using Whirlwind or Roar + Taunting, but there are a couple of other options as well, including, but not limited to;
                          1) using multi-hit moves to break their subs and deal more damage to them (like Bullet Seed, Icicle Spear, Dual Chop etc)
                          2) using moves that make do damage and switch out, thus allowing you to break the substitute and get a faster attacker in (U-Turn and Volt Switch (not that useful against PH Gliscor but should be ok vs Breloom)
                          3) using a normal move to break their substitute, then do damage the following turn with an increased priority move (Ice Punch + Ice Shard, for instance)
                          4) predicting their protects and set up on it to make you have an advantage the following turn (say, using Agility Metagross w/ Ice Punch vs PH Gliscor, you've broken the sub, and the turn Gliscor protects to get back 12,5%, you Agility, making you faster and able to KO it the next turn) Pretty situational though.


                          ... not to mention;
                          5) using moves that give them a different status condition before they get poisoned (although that is pretty difficult to do considering how they'd practically have to switch into the status move)

                          and if everything else fails:

                          6) flinch them to death with Jirachi

                          Taunt and Roar/WW are really good ways to deal with it too though.
                            #49    
                          Old August 31st, 2013 (4:42 AM).
                          PlatinumDude's Avatar
                          PlatinumDude PlatinumDude is offline
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                          Quote:
                          Originally Posted by Opposite Day View Post
                          Derk already mentioned phasing, aka forcing them to switch by using Whirlwind or Roar + Taunting, but there are a couple of other options as well, including, but not limited to;
                          1) using multi-hit moves to break their subs and deal more damage to them (like Bullet Seed, Icicle Spear, Dual Chop etc)
                          2) using moves that make do damage and switch out, thus allowing you to break the substitute and get a faster attacker in (U-Turn and Volt Switch (not that useful against PH Gliscor but should be ok vs Breloom)
                          3) using a normal move to break their substitute, then do damage the following turn with an increased priority move (Ice Punch + Ice Shard, for instance)
                          4) predicting their protects and set up on it to make you have an advantage the following turn (say, using Agility Metagross w/ Ice Punch vs PH Gliscor, you've broken the sub, and the turn Gliscor protects to get back 12,5%, you Agility, making you faster and able to KO it the next turn) Pretty situational though.


                          ... not to mention;
                          5) using moves that give them a different status condition before they get poisoned (although that is pretty difficult to do considering how they'd practically have to switch into the status move)

                          and if everything else fails:

                          6) flinch them to death with Jirachi

                          Taunt and Roar/WW are really good ways to deal with it too though.
                          To add, Perish Song can bypass Substitutes, giving the Substitute opponent a 3-turn timer: either they stay in and be KOed or switch out.
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                            #50    
                          Old August 31st, 2013 (9:47 AM).
                          KorpiklaaniVodka's Avatar
                          KorpiklaaniVodka KorpiklaaniVodka is offline
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                            Quote:
                            Originally Posted by Khaotik View Post
                            I was battling a guy the other day who had a two Pokemon who both had Poison Heal, they were holding Toxic Orbs, so they could heal their health up. They also had substitute, and they would use Protect, so they would gain health after using substitute. I lost hopelessly, and couldn't find a counter against it, is there any sort of counter for that? Or would I just be boned?

                            1. Multi-hit moves
                            2. Taunt
                            3. Weavile with Ice Punch, as it is a guaranteed OHKO. Ice Shard can also help if you have a Choice Band.
                            4. Roar / Whirlwind
                            5. Magic Guard, as it makes you immune to Toxic.
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