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  #1    
Old February 11th, 2014 (4:09 AM).
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    If you were considering joining the army, disregarding any fear you would have for your own life, would there be any ethical reasons that would prevent you from enlisting?
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    Old February 11th, 2014 (5:56 AM). Edited February 11th, 2014 by Exothermic.
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      I'm a pacifist and I don't believe in war/violence/etc.

      There're some issues I can think of. The rank and order system in the military is basically a perfumed version of "argument from authority". Not everyone can accept such a system of doing things, and rightfully so! Such an environment differs greatly from a civilian environment, and the thought of killing at the whim of an order doesn't sound too appealing to me.
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      Old February 11th, 2014 (8:40 AM).
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        Like Exothermic, I believe war can't be justified.
        It is possible to find other means to solve issues in this world, but I understand that as current things stand, this might sound too idealistic; I still don't care.
        I'd rather spend my entire life trying to understand this other party and come to a peaceful agreement/cooperation, rather than go the cheapest route possible and deny their lives like that...
        If I really had no other choice, it would still be impossible for me to be in the army, since doing what some other idiot orders me to do is about the last thing I would do in my life.
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        Old February 11th, 2014 (8:49 AM).
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          I couldn't go into something knowing that I have to kill someone who is probably fighting for the same reason I would be. People go in there believing that they are the 'good guys.' The North Korean leader shelters them from the real world and tries to make himself look better. Therefore, people believe that US is the bad ones and they are good. I just couldn't kill someone because of the fact that they got pushed into the war.

          We tend to fight 3rd-World countries and the only reason people go in there are for the money in hopes that it'll be enough for their family. That is devastating to think about and I really don't think violence is the answer.
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          Old February 11th, 2014 (10:08 AM).
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            I'm actually against what my bourgeois government is doing here, and elsewhere. Also, I am physically unfit. Say.. If it were a revolution here to overthrow whatever my country's corrupt government will become.... I'd gladly be a part of the rebellion, but not actually fighting in combat. I'd rather be the brain instead of the brawn, like my hero... Vladimir Lenin, champion of the proletariat!
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            Old February 11th, 2014 (2:45 PM).
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            I don't think I'd have so big of a problem with joining the military. I'm a history and politics buff, so I've come to accept war as a fact of life between countries. I've also participated in cadets, and that really socialized me with the military - I'm pretty comfortable with the idea of men and women running around with guns. My dream for a time was actually to become a military doctor, but I can see myself in a combat role as well. The idea of fighting in a team, with the possibility of killing, is just not foreign nor repulsive to me. In my opinion, it's always good to be in a leadership position, as that gives you a degree of freedom and responsibility over the action of your soldiers. There's nothing better than being a good example and leading as ethically as you can in a military context.
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            Old March 2nd, 2014 (7:44 AM). Edited March 2nd, 2014 by zakisrage.
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              Due to coming from a troubled part of the world, I've got military history in my background. My dad was briefly in one of the Lebanese militias when he returned to Lebanon. This was after he married my mother. My maternal grandfather fought against Israel in the First Arab-Israeli War. Two of my great-grandfathers participated in the Arab Revolt against the Ottoman Empire.

              I generally do not see war as a conflict of good vs. evil. Even World War II wasn't a conflict of good vs. evil. One of my friends has a great-grandfather who fought in Mussolini's army and he has repeatedly emphasised to me how his war experience was horrible (after all, he saw fascists killing locals in East Africa and was a POW later on). His wife of over seventy years told me that war is never black and white. The sad thing is, the majority of fictional portrayals of war show it as black and white, when in real life this almost never happens. I think that all WWII veterans should be treated with respect - regardless if they're Allied or Axis - unless they committed atrocities.

              However, I'm generally against the idea of war. I think it's wrong to be killing people and I wish wars wouldn't happen. Unfortunately, sometimes they might be inevitable to preserve order (I mean, imagine what would have happened if we didn't resist Germany, Italy, and Japan during WWII). Still, war isn't a pleasant thought. Thankfully, some Lebanese seem to be catching onto this. Lebanon ended conscription several years ago, which I think is a step in the right direction.
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              Old March 2nd, 2014 (11:00 AM).
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              Technically I'm already part of the military, I'm part of the Army Corps of Engineers, although I'm still considered a civilian.

              I don't think I'd join the military full up. There's a lot of things about the military I'm firmly against. I'm not fond of the drone-striking and or it's collateral damage. I'm also not sold on the idea of killing other people in someone else's name, especially if that certain someone didn't ask me to kill anyone in the first place.

              That's one of the things I hate the most about "patriots." They claim "they're fighting for your freedom" or even going as far as to admit "they killing other people in your name".

              NO. DO NOT put the their blood or the blood of the people they kill on my hands. I never asked them to go abroad and fight or die for me. Not once. I would never ask that of ANYONE.
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              Old March 2nd, 2014 (11:34 AM).
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              Hmmmmm

              I don't think it's ever been a matter of fear for my own life when it comes to enlisting in the army. It's not a physical fitness thing either for me (although my lung capacity might not allow me to join sadly. I'd have to look it up). It's more a matter that I hate guns with every fiber of my being. I don't understand gun obsessions, and I wouldn't be able to stay in a job that has guns like that in my day-to-day life. That and the fact I'm more of an introverted person and I imagine that being with so many people in boot camp/platoons/whatnot would be incredibly emotionally draining for me.
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              Old March 3rd, 2014 (8:15 PM).
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              Largely because I'm against (at least potentially) taking other people's lives. Plus I'm kinda just against war in general.

              And I'm transgender so they wouldn't even take me even if I was drafted
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              Old March 5th, 2014 (3:32 AM).
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              Violence should always be a last solution. You should never go around punching people or using violence as an an intimidation tool because you feel like it, that's despicable and ethically wrong. However, i'm of the firm opinion is the last solution. Once kind words, reasoned discussion and the cold shoulder doesn't work and someone just won't back down with their aggressiveness then I see no other method but violence to put them down.

              I've never had to use violence in my life thankfully, but when I inevitably hit a confrontation requiring violence I would feel the safest if I had martial arts, police or military training. For my entire life I have been a weakling, subdued by violence, the threat of it or the mere fact that my adversaries are capable of using it whilst I could not. I want to join the Army one day and receive confidence in myself, not so I can go around shooting or beating people up but to know that if a situation ever occurs I can defend myself, friends, family or innocent bystanders.

              In my eyes the military and police forces use applied violence to make the world a safer place for those who do not want to fight themselves. And you shouldn't need to fight, it's a dirty business. Zakisrage says there is no black or white, one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter and all that but being from a politically stable country the primary function of the Army is defence, not to enforce martial law or abuse power. I like to think we are the good guys. Even if the world is not clear cut what is clear to me is that some people have no compunction about using violence against innocents. As such, I have no compunction against professionally applying violence to them :)
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              Old March 7th, 2014 (11:39 AM).
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              I'm not a pacifist by any stretch of the imagination, but I do think that open war should be a last resort, should all possible diplomatic routes fail. If there was an immediate threat in Iraq, (Like, a non-engineered threat) then I'd be for deploying troops as part of a well-organized coalition, that goes in, with proper equipment, proper training, and a cohesive battle plan designed to crush the enemy quickly with limited civilian casualties. Seeing as that rarely happens these days - the logistics of creating a well-oiled coalition is damn near impossible, and seeing as the war in Afghanistan & Iraq have greatly damaged the U.S.'s ability to commit troops abroad, diplomacy should be the preferred option going forward, if possible. I'm not a military guy by any stretch of the imagination, so don't go looking for me on a battlefield, though, I could do it if needed to, in the event of a draft, per say.
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              Old March 8th, 2014 (1:38 AM).
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                Do you fancy being a puppet for your country's politicians, getting your hands dirty to keep theirs clean? How many politicians who actually send people to war actually end up going on the front lines? Maybe there might be an odd example here and there, but generally speaking, it's clear that anyone going to war is being manipulated into a mentality where killing people is no longer murder but instead it's doing good for your country? Where being on the front lines isn't reckless and dangerous but instead a noble sacrifice for the motherland? Haha.

                I don't look kindly upon our "need" for the war or the military. But I guess it's human nature to establish some sort of dominance and to sometimes get so greedy that we do things by force. Would I be just as bad if I were in the politician's shoes? I dread to think of that.
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                Old March 8th, 2014 (7:48 AM).
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                Fancy? Sure why not. But keep in mind that soldiers fight for each other just as much, if not more, than for their government. Seriously, trust and companionship at the squad level is what makes modern militaries great. Besides, politicians tend to be middle-aged if not elderly, and that's not really fighting material. I don't think killing people is wrong in and of itself for all circumstances, there's a time and place for everything.
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                Old March 8th, 2014 (9:14 AM).
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                War is pointless sacrifice for life. It's like kids arguing against each other and bullying, but instead of throwing sticks and stones at eachother, they're sending people with highly dangerous weapons to kill each other and usually result in the death of people who weren't even the slightest involved as well, because they don't want their suits getting dirty.

                I don't understand why anyone would want to be enlisted. It's just pointless. I don't think they're bad people but they just throw themselves into danger to be some greedy rich bastard's pawn and that's just... man, I just don't understand why that's called "honour". I guess to try to encourage more people to replace the fallen. To me, honour is helping your fellow man, trying to bring him or her up from the issues, to see past their differences and their country or whatever and try to help them. Not dying fighting as a pawn for a little fight between angry men in suits.

                Quote:
                Originally Posted by CarcharOdin View Post
                That's one of the things I hate the most about "patriots." They claim "they're fighting for your freedom" or even going as far as to admit "they killing other people in your name".

                NO. DO NOT put the their blood or the blood of the people they kill on my hands. I never asked them to go abroad and fight or die for me. Not once. I would never ask that of ANYONE.
                omfg THIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIS
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                Old March 8th, 2014 (10:59 AM).
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                  Quote:
                  Originally Posted by Kanzler View Post
                  Fancy? Sure why not. But keep in mind that soldiers fight for each other just as much, if not more, than for their government. Seriously, trust and companionship at the squad level is what makes modern militaries great. Besides, politicians tend to be middle-aged if not elderly, and that's not really fighting material. I don't think killing people is wrong in and of itself for all circumstances, there's a time and place for everything.
                  Obviously, a mentality like that is excellent for troop morale, and it's no surprise that soldiers have that mentality and that the message to the public pushes out that sentiment. That's exactly the sort of message that you'd want to give out to them rather than laying out truer and ulterior motives.

                  Killing people in a way that deprives them of the opportunity to experience life and results in their family and friends losing someone dear to them; that's cruelty at it's finest. The only reason I can condone the loss of human life is if someone is at death's door and whatever life they have left is only going to be spent in agonising pain. People going to war are fully fit and young, as you said. A death for one of them could potentially be wiping off what could have been sixty, seventy years of natural healthy life. It's insanity, surely?

                  There can be trust and companionship without the need for bloodshed.
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                  Old March 8th, 2014 (11:12 AM).
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                  When you characterized soldiering as being a puppet for those who would keep their hands clean, I don't think you were fully appreciating the feelings and aspirations of those on the ground. Yes the mentality is excellent for troop morale, but what would we have instead? Depressed troops? I'm not sure how my friend in military college would even begin to respond to that. And yes there are ulterior motives. But is brotherhood in arms any less true? Even if you think of war and fighting in a certain way, that's no excuse to discount to feelings, beliefs and aspirations of men and women who do the fighting.
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                  Old March 8th, 2014 (11:49 AM).
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                    Quote:
                    Originally Posted by Kanzler View Post
                    When you characterized soldiering as being a puppet for those who would keep their hands clean, I don't think you were fully appreciating the feelings and aspirations of those on the ground. Yes the mentality is excellent for troop morale, but what would we have instead? Depressed troops? I'm not sure how my friend in military college would even begin to respond to that. And yes there are ulterior motives. But is brotherhood in arms any less true? Even if you think of war and fighting in a certain way, that's no excuse to discount to feelings, beliefs and aspirations of men and women who do the fighting.
                    Since I live in a military (Army) establishment, I can safely say that there is a lot of emotions flying around on a daily basis, especially considering our post, Fort Carson, is a rapid-deployment installation.

                    Can you imagine the possibility of these feelings, beliefs, and aspirations being grown into such an ilk? A large number of seniors I know have already enlisted, or have scholarships to college ROTC and whatnot, as if it's what they're meant to do. Living a military lifestyle often brings about a mentality of not asking questions, and blindly doing what your told. The exchange that happens is that these people believe that they're doing something noble by fighting for the man, and an entire culture of ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ has been facilitated to get these people to volunteer themselves for God knows what. This culture has gotten to the point where you can easily alienate yourself for even beginning to question it.

                    These feelings are honest, but are made in vain. These emotions give people validity for blind obedience among otherwise logical and intelligent people.
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                    Old March 8th, 2014 (12:19 PM).
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                    Okay, okay, you've got me there. I do despise some of my cadet colleagues' attitudes for being too conservative and go-with-the-flow and uncriticalness (if that's a word - it isn't). Yet there are military figures who are my role models in the military sphere - Erwin Rommel is a famous one. He was a brilliant and decent general.

                    Anyways, average soldiers don't ask questions. The real leaders take initiative and have creativity and originality - asking questions is part of that. The military is not black and white. Furthermore, it is not about the simple question of killing people or not, military science is about how to do it best. If I was a military man, I'd want to get promoted
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                    Old March 8th, 2014 (12:34 PM).
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                      Soldier unification likely requires leadership for the safety of the entire group, and by extent, country.

                      For instance, the nude humiliation tactics employed by several soldiers, not upholding laws and conventions established by the military and in-part international laws only inflamed the conflict. These soldiers really must abide by similar and unified discourses handed down by a few overseers. If not, it allows for vigilantism, our the opposite. Some soldiers would fair well, some would not. We all blindly follow certain held beliefs and expectations, probably for good reason as far as stability's sake. Though, I agree some are less utilitarian than other displays of following conventions or orders. A population that is more reverent of most laws and customs is more likely to maintain stability and avoid social dissidence, civil wars being the extreme result of such discordance. Though, we could certainly change some laws, in order to ensure its reverence. (ie discriminatory laws will likely have a negative effect. When changed mandates on society can also prove to diffuse social warfare.)

                      Additionally, having a strict framework to live by with set expectations isn't necessarily a good or bad thing in of itself. Some research I am conducted on happiness by political ideology, conservatives being the happier demographic over the past three decades each year, can be explained by this set of expectations and clear objectives. Life, trying to find purpose on your own, can create anxiety, depression, and dissatisfaction. The bar hasn't been set. Like writing a paper without any specific instructions from your teacher/professor for instance will create a sense of self-doubt rather than a clear set of criteria.

                      I would argue, we should focus on making changes to the criteria so that most people will be reverent of that criteria. Thus, why hyper-partisan politics only encourages less order, less reverence to laws (on both spectrums), and discordance among cultures in our society. Though, some MUCH less partisanship can be healthy for debate and critique of criteria.
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                        #21    
                      Old March 8th, 2014 (1:05 PM).
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                      You're gonna have a bad time.
                         
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                        I respect the effort and hard work that goes into training. I respect those people for that effort. I don't respect anyone getting their hands bloody however, that's all. And if your friend were to die in his twenties as a result of any front-line action, I'm certain you'd feel differently. I wouldn't be able to stop someone getting into the army if they really wanted to and such, but if I had a friend potentially ending up in a situation where they're killing/could be killed, I would fight their decision as strongly as I could as I couldn't bear the thought of them dying.

                        I agree that a good morale is important for a good army; but I strongly disagree with military action as a means of resolving matters. And I don't believe that greatness comes from guidance alone. Teach a man not what to think but how to think. How will we progress and learn more if we curb our minds to not ponder certain things and not to question them? It can be depressing and scary to press forward in that manner but I believe it's crucial to our own development.

                        If for some reason I had to be involved with the military, I would definitely need a good reason to kill someone. Are they attacking innocents on our own soil? That I guess I would begrudgingly see as a sufficient reason to take that person out. But to go into other countries and get all in their affairs with military muscle is another matter entirely. I personally feel the rightful purpose of any military power should be to protect and defend, not go into other countries and kill.

                        The amount of time, money, resources and effort that goes into military matters when it come be better spent on... I don't know, sustaining our planet so we're all going to have something stable to live on after any needless fighting?
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