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  #126    
Old April 17th, 2013 (1:02 PM).
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Dark Azelf Dark Azelf is offline
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    Just gonna chime in here.

    BW is a mess competitively. Thats the main reason i left and why i dont play much at all these days and i think everyone else feels the same, well vet wise anyway.

    I know a few of our vets have been wanting to play gen 4 myself included. I think the best thing to do is decide on a mutual metagame that everyone wants to play as a community (not randbats...lol). We tried to do this with our own metagame and maybe now those deterrent to this idea arent around to troll/be stupid and bad/as useful as a chocolate fire guard etc maybe we can try something like that again ? Basically agreeing with Jake.

    Now imma hibernate again.

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      #127    
    Old April 17th, 2013 (1:46 PM).
    Anti's Avatar
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    I think we need more popular support to run our own metagame. I also question how desirable that is since I don't know if anyone even cares that BW is even fixable...and it's about to become a dead metagame. I'd much prefer to wait until X&Y. Then I think it may be a better idea.

    In the meantime I definitely support another metagame. I'm very only on PO's DPP OU ladder right now. I'd be open to any other (good) metagames.

    I think the idea of a DCC is incompatible with a forum that already has a server. Since the server features no competitive talk and that's apparently perfectly acceptable, why not just make it "battling chat" or something generic that at least doesn't invite irrelevant nonsense. I realize I'm basically advocating for a DCC with a different name, but I think an Other Chat-like DCC is a terrible idea. A competitive focus? I may buy into that.

    But there has to be a zero tolerance policy on dumb posts (I know it's subjective and difficult to enforce) so that it can function. I'm not sure if maintaining the thread would be worth its upside. I think that's for Wolf to decide.
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      #128    
    Old April 17th, 2013 (2:27 PM).
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    Past generations won't receive much popularity, I'll tell you that now. We tried "focusing" on an old metagame before, but no one is really interested in old generations. I see nothing wrong with sparking some interest in it and getting a few people to play it, but don't expect much else. However, what would work is BW UU, NU, RU, or OU. Primarily UU since it's been getting a bit popular on the server.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Anti View Post
    I think the idea of a DCC is incompatible with a forum that already has a server. Since the server features no competitive talk and that's apparently perfectly acceptable, why not just make it "battling chat" or something generic that at least doesn't invite irrelevant nonsense. I realize I'm basically advocating for a DCC with a different name, but I think an Other Chat-like DCC is a terrible idea. A competitive focus? I may buy into that.
    DCC isn't really supposed to be a spam pit, and it isn't for other forums (OC/CC&P's is a little bit like one because it's a casual off-topic chat). Sure, it was like that in S&M, but the one we had during CBC/BC's life wasn't bad by any means. It was just usually irrelevant or unused, just like other "all-in-one" threads like the NU Discussion (and all the other failed metagame discussions). But why not, I'll consider making another just for the heck of it.
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      #129    
    Old April 17th, 2013 (9:35 PM).
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    Fire Flyy Fire Flyy is offline
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      Quote:
      Originally Posted by Anti View Post
      "There are lots of people on the server that aren't huge battlers, and yet they hang out there."
      "Yes, it can very well be general disinterest, or maybe laziness for the most part"
      "You have to take into account a large percentage and a portion of the server who may be alienated by the competitive talk"

      Yeah, I asking why those people are here. It's a competitive battling forum. It just blows my mind. You talk as if being disinterested in battling is normal on a battling server. Implicit in your post is that it's okay for Strategies and Movesets to turn into glorified social hour. I cannot bring myself to support that.

      "I'm also interpreting from your posts that competitive battling should be a more frequent atmosphere here"
      the competitive aspect of this forum is indeed important to you"

      Because that's literally what the forum was made for.. It's kind of like if I were in a book club and someone said "it seems like the reading books aspect of this club is important to you" as if that should even be a question. I wouldn't go to the TCG forum and then not play the trading card game. That is where I'm really struggling.

      And since you mentioned the personal note I'll just go for it. It's especially tough for me personally because I tried for years to get the forum more active but you know what? It was fun through all of those struggles (I'll exclude that D_A ban). I am frankly a little bit appalled that the foundation of this forum for a decade is being so flippantly tossed aside.



      It blows my mind that anyone would be okay with this being the reality of PC's competitive battling community.
      i got linked this and felt compelled to post lol

      yea I addressed this problem a long time ago, I think the fact that everyone plays NU is kind of another indicator of this as everyones too scared to play OU because they'll be bad at it. As the great lizardman said hes good bc he "Throws himself to the lions". When I got here first everyone was laddering and trying to get better on the OU ladder [im still like that and im still not where id like to be], 1300 was an accomplishment but not the ending point. Sure people like Aero, myself have gotten down because we werent great at the game but thats no reason to not play or lose interest. Sure the server is revived activity wise but its just a bunch of kids battling casually.


      also to address this 'mutual metagame stuff', the mutual metagame is OU and always has been, since its the standard, not on any forum does the community as a whole prefer to play something other than OU, sure you can branch into other tiers after a while but i mean people disregard it here like its some kind of stale unfun metagame which is a blatantly wrong stereotype, look at smogons rmt archive, youll find teams with azumarill, specially defensive dragonite, etc, you can use more mons than any other tier. i personally dont find bw2 to be as enjoyable as bw1 or some other tiers but it's still fine to play, im not getting attacked by volt turn and the same 6 mons every time i click find battle lol
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        #130    
      Old April 17th, 2013 (9:45 PM).
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      Ho-Oh Ho-Oh is offline
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      People aren't playing NU because they're scared of OU at all :/ When they joined, I was getting everyone into NU because it was fun to start out with and people like what they enjoy. I enjoy playing NU so I don't necessarily wanna try other stuff as it'd take away from the playing of NU. Plus NU has good players - and NU is actually a good tier. Argue that all you want but it's true. NU isn't a bad tier, and the fact that they play NU isn't bad either. It's also partially my fault because I didn't take them much further from the basics. Also NU can be a diverse metagame too, and you can ask any NU player on Smogon and they'd say the same, so... OU isn't like the "should be main tier to concentrate on" in competitive.
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        #131    
      Old April 17th, 2013 (9:48 PM).
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      Fire Flyy Fire Flyy is offline
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        i didnt say nu was a bad tier at all lol, read the post again ?_?

        im just saying ou should naturally be the focus and its a weird notion for the community to shift off the standard
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          #132    
        Old April 17th, 2013 (9:52 PM).
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        No... OU shouldn't naturally be the focus. For example, Smogon's NU forum has had more threads made on the first page than OU's forum, which goes to show that it does have a big enough following to be a centerpiece. Uhh that probably makes no sense, but still, OU doesn't have to be the focus. We're not Smogon, we're PC. OU is the focus of Smogon, but the fact that NU is that interesting to get that appeal THERE suggests that NU is actually worth investing time in if it can get so much interest where OU is the big league etc. We don't necessarily have to play OU as our main tier just because we're a competitive community. It's up to what the users prefer, anyway. :/
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          #133    
        Old April 17th, 2013 (10:23 PM).
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        Fire Flyy Fire Flyy is offline
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          id argue OU isnt smogons main focus, given that there are sub communities for each tier and tournaments like the grand slam and spl, it is however, the standard metagame that most players play and it's definitely the focus of other smaller general pokemon sites with competitive communities like serebii and marriland
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            #134    
          Old April 17th, 2013 (10:34 PM).
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          Honestly, OU is the general focus for the majority of forums everywhere. It IS the standard metagame. Honestly I think the reason NU is so big here is because that was the tier that you were into, and since you were the person that actually brought a large portion of the activity here, people seemed to congregate over that way. I'm not saying anything is wrong with that, but when the only tier people really play is NU, and random people come onto the server asking for battles in OU/UU/<insert other tiers here>, no one really can do them because no one has ever ventured into the other metagames.

          This pretty much goes back to my previous point in made in my last post, is that we need to shift some of the attention off of NU and into the other tiers. We shouldn't do it just so the random people that come onto to battle can be pleased, but it'd be nice to actually have a diversified set of people that can battle in more than one tier. I'm not saying we have to shift to OU (even if it is the norm for pretty much everywhere, not just Smogon), but it wouldn't hurt for people to actually learn it. Hell, if people are more interested in UU/RU/Ubers then fine, maybe we shift focus there. Then again, it's not impossible to have focus in more than one place at once, so maybe pushing the other tiers forward and putting NU on the back burner for a little while couldn't hurt.

          Maybe having the competitive DCC isn't such a bad idea either. It's true, most people just hang out on the server and don't battle frequently/just do randbats/chat (I myself am guilty of this), so having a place dedicated to actually having competitive discussions wouldn't hurt. I mean, let's be honest, we aren't going to change the culture of the server. If it's forced to start talking about competitive play for x amount of time it isn't going to happen. I'd be happy to actually start talking competitively again, as I've been getting back into the swing of things and laddering a little here and there.
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            #135    
          Old April 17th, 2013 (11:12 PM). Edited April 18th, 2013 by Stormborn.
          Stormborn Stormborn is offline
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            Making OU the focus here is like making Ping Pong the main sport in the Olympics. Encouraging people to play quite possibly the worst thing that's come out of Nintendo is a bad idea when you want activity.

            And yes if not a DCC, make it a Battle Chat. It can be just discussions on competitive stuff/laddering experience/questions/whatnot. It will bring more activity I feel. As for your fear of it will take activity away from other threads, it's understandable but I feel if you make it clear most people will stick to the rules.
              #136    
            Old April 18th, 2013 (6:13 AM).
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            Dark Azelf Dark Azelf is offline
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              Going back to out own metagame, just curious but how would people feel in trying our own version of OU again ? (Im not ignoring anti's post or anything im just curious how people feel)

              Not like before but current OU with all the stuff us as a community feel is broken removed. For example, i notice Fire Fly in the other thread (Power creep one) said something along the lines of "Oh Keldeo, Landorus and CTar make stall unviable". I also know other people hate rain and sun. And even this

              Quote:
              Making OU the focus here is like making Ping Pong the main sport in the Olympics. Encouraging people to play quite possibly the worst thing that's come out of Nintendo is a bad idea when you want activity.
              So why not do our own suspect test and lets "fix" it ? It will get the community involved and aswell as the ladder and even newer players involved so you kill a few birds with one stone by doing this. Remember post Latias Mence Dppt ? That was arguably THE most balanced OU has been.

              Im thinking if we could have some short arbitrary test period. People discuss what they feel is broken in a thread (battle chat thread maybe?) and then at the end of a period people PM to wolf what they want banned to avoid band wagoning etc.

              Just throwing ideas around here but yeah lol.
                #137    
              Old April 18th, 2013 (6:25 AM).
              Melody Melody is offline
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                Quote:
                Originally Posted by Dark Azelf View Post
                Going back to out own metagame, just curious but how would people feel in trying our own version of OU again ? (Im not ignoring anti's post or anything im just curious how people feel)

                Not like before but current OU with all the stuff us as a community feel is broken removed. For example, i notice Fire Fly in the other thread (Power creep one) said something along the lines of "Oh Keldeo, Landorus and CTar make stall unviable". I also know other people hate rain and sun. And even this



                So why not do our own suspect test and lets "fix" it ? It will get the community involved and aswell as the ladder and even newer players involved so you kill a few birds with one stone by doing this. Remember post Latias Mence Dppt ? That was arguably THE most balanced OU has been.

                Im thinking if we could have some short arbitrary test period. People discuss what they feel is broken in a thread (battle chat thread maybe?) and then at the end of a period people PM to wolf what they want banned to avoid band wagoning etc.

                Just throwing ideas around here but yeah lol.
                I'm so for this. Anything to undermine Smogon's tiers is OK in my book. I feel like we deprive ourselves of what GF intended by overbanning things, and that smogon's tier system is WAY TOO HEAVY on the top and bottom. Seriously, look at Ubers and NU, they're the largest tiers.
                  #138    
                Old April 18th, 2013 (6:55 AM).
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                This is a discussion that was had on the server in regards to a possible tiering system independent of Smogon's: http://pastebin.com/6jSznSHH

                If the kinks mentioned in it are ironed out (namely that suspect threads [if suspecting is even implemented in this hypothetical tiering system] usually end up devolving into mindless flame wars between distinguished "good" players) I feel Dark Azelf's system could attain a high level of viability.
                  #139    
                Old April 18th, 2013 (8:51 AM).
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                Ho-Oh Ho-Oh is offline
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                Last time we tried, everyone was all for it. When it came to doing stuff for it... only three people got involved. :/ If it's happening again, everyone who wants it has to be on board.

                I personally won't be playing it because I dislike a lot about OU, which is more than suspect testing and so on can change, and I much prefer what NU and UU has to offer. But yeah, before anything happens, everyone has to give their promise TO stay involved and play it. Otherwise again, it won't work it and it'll end up in drama again with DA getting pissed at people for not playing it.
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                  #140    
                Old April 18th, 2013 (9:04 AM).
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                Quote:
                Originally Posted by Nica
                Last time we tried, everyone was all for it. When it came to doing stuff for it... only three people got involved. :/ If it's happening again, everyone who wants it has to be on board.

                I personally won't be playing it because I dislike a lot about OU, which is more than suspect testing and so on can change, and I much prefer what NU and UU has to offer. But yeah, before anything happens, everyone has to give their promise TO stay involved and play it. Otherwise again, it won't work it and it'll end up in drama again with DA getting pissed at people for not playing it.
                Agreeing on both fronts, I think the question isn't "how would people feel about..." but rather "will you absolutely commit to..." because the former doesn't make people take any responsibility.

                Anyway, I wouldn't play it either for the reasons I outlined in my other post and what Nica said. Too little, too late. The almighty sixth generation might be a better candidate--if it's good, oh wonderful, and if not, I would be interested in trying.

                Just a note on the OU thing, I think both "sides" are right. It sucks AND is the standard metagame. It is difficult to depart from it since that's what most new players will naturally play. With no one playing anyway though, a lower tier or older gen makes sense to me. I think D_A's plan makes a lot more sense in sixth months though.

                Quote:
                Originally Posted by Pachy
                I'm so for this. Anything to undermine Smogon's tiers is OK in my book. I feel like we deprive ourselves of what GF intended by overbanning things, and that smogon's tier system is WAY TOO HEAVY on the top and bottom. Seriously, look at Ubers and NU, they're the largest tiers.
                NU is naturally large since there are way more bad Pokemon than good. As for Uber, anything that is broken should be banned--maybe Uber isn't big *enough*...just food for thought.
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                  #141    
                Old April 18th, 2013 (9:22 AM).
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                Quote:
                NU is naturally large since there are way more bad Pokemon than good. As for Uber, anything that is broken should be banned--maybe Uber isn't big *enough*...just food for thought.
                Dat be deep.

                In all seriousness, I kind of have to agree with Anti: It's almost too little too late. By the time we actually have anything organized, plus then actually test things, start banning, X/Y is already going to be upon us. If everyone is this opposed to standard OU, then maybe we can just focus on something like UU where it is actually pretty similar to DPP OU in terms of power balance. Plus, we're notorious for saying what we all want to do and then no one follows through on anything (Just look at the NU tour we had >.>). It's probably not worth the effort.
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                  #142    
                Old April 18th, 2013 (9:29 AM).
                Melody Melody is offline
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                  Quote:
                  Originally Posted by Anti View Post
                  Agreeing on both fronts, I think the question isn't "how would people feel about..." but rather "will you absolutely commit to..." because the former doesn't make people take any responsibility.

                  Anyway, I wouldn't play it either for the reasons I outlined in my other post and what Nica said. Too little, too late. The almighty sixth generation might be a better candidate--if it's good, oh wonderful, and if not, I would be interested in trying.

                  Just a note on the OU thing, I think both "sides" are right. It sucks AND is the standard metagame. It is difficult to depart from it since that's what most new players will naturally play. With no one playing anyway though, a lower tier or older gen makes sense to me. I think D_A's plan makes a lot more sense in sixth months though.



                  NU is naturally large since there are way more bad Pokemon than good. As for Uber, anything that is broken should be banned--maybe Uber isn't big *enough*...just food for thought.
                  No. Just no. The problem is that Uber often bans SUPER EFFECTIVE as if it's BROKEN. Sorry, but I think nothing should be banned unless it absolutely has to be; I want to respect the intent of Game Freak too, because long drawn out battles really suck as much as short ones where you get slaughtered, or do the slaughtering.
                    #143    
                  Old April 18th, 2013 (9:31 AM).
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                  I'd love to make another PC OU. I was a big supporter of it, and I still am. Anti says it's too late, but we still have a half a year until XY is out. This would be a good time to test out our tiering system and iron out the kinks before XY is here. I think it would be a cool project, but I don't think we should focus entirely on it and not bother with expanding the amount of metagames we're comfortable with. I do suggest making a council of 3 or 5 members for our tiering system. They would make all of the decisions, but the community is free to sway their opinion.

                  Quote:
                  Originally Posted by Pachy View Post
                  I'm so for this. Anything to undermine Smogon's tiers is OK in my book. I feel like we deprive ourselves of what GF intended by overbanning things, and that smogon's tier system is WAY TOO HEAVY on the top and bottom. Seriously, look at Ubers and NU, they're the largest tiers.
                  We would probably be banning MORE than Smogon, that's the point. Knowing you, I doubt you would like that.
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                    #144    
                  Old April 18th, 2013 (9:35 AM).
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                  Quote:
                  Originally Posted by Wolflare View Post
                  I'd love to make another PC OU. I was a big supporter of it, and I still am. Anti says it's too late, but we still have a half a year until XY is out. This would be a good time to test out our tiering system and iron out the kinks before XY is here. I think it would be a cool project, but I don't think we should focus entirely on it and not bother with expanding the amount of metagames we're comfortable with. I do suggest making a council of 3 or 5 members for our tiering system. They would make all of the decisions, but the community is free to sway their opinion.
                  I didn't even realize it was still 6 months away >.> I'd guess I'd be down to help out with this in whatever capacity. If it's anything like the one we did the first time it was at least fun to do it, regardless if it didn't actually work out in the long-run. I still think we should put focus onto other things as well though, whether is RU/UU/Ubers, as people seem interested at least.
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                    #145    
                  Old April 18th, 2013 (9:50 AM). Edited April 18th, 2013 by wolf.
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                  Keep in mind that metagame mods are still a possibility. For example, we could take broken Pokemon and nerf them by changing their stats and such. Possibly make a tier where everything is allowed, but most Uber and OU Pokemon are nerfed to some degree. I thought I'd suggest it as a possibility. Sure, the metagame wouldn't be viable on the actual Pokemon games, but our Wi-Fi battling community is nonexistent anyway. Heck, even Smogon doesn't have a big Wi-Fi battling community like it used to.

                  Edit: We could even remove hax from the metagame if we wanted to. But I'll also mention a downside to this: we could end up changing so much that new players would have difficulty getting into it.
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                    #146    
                  Old April 18th, 2013 (9:57 AM).
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                  Okay so this is just me kind of interjecting since I had to read through a lot. Anywho, I just want to say that I'm definitely interested in trying other tiers than NU, or just more NU to be honest. Basically I like the idea of us coming together as a community to focus on something together - whether it be other tiers or creating our own OU, or focusing solely on UU etc. In all honesty I'm really down to try anything, and would love to start being more competitive.

                  (also I think advertising this thread on the server would be good so we get everyone's input. I guess for some reason people just tend to look at the Server thread over this one? I know that's true for me :p)
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                    #147    
                  Old April 18th, 2013 (1:28 PM).
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                  I just wanted to address the fact that I don't plan on participating if you guys are gonna ban every random thing. Of course, you're allowed to construct your ~ideal~ metagame based on whatever the opinions of the few people running this are, but I believe you should not ban things unless they're absolutely broken. "Broken" is a consistently misused and misinterpreted term; no one knows exactly what defines broken, and the people that spout it off constantly are generally selfish people whose teams cannot deal with x or y Pokemon or they outright just don't like something. If you ever read a suspect discussion on Smogon, you'll understand that it's primarily lead by people that feel they are incredibly important and have an issue adapting to new Pokemon, and that their opinion is the only way through.

                  Part of the reason why BW OU was so miserable is because everyone kept trying to fit it into the same kind of build as DP, rather than accepting the fact that it's a completely different metagame. People don't realize that, y'know, even if we have auto-weather in OU and insanely fast and strong Pokemon, we can't magically transform it into a balance-laden meta with all sorts of possibilities etc. We can't ban Excadrill and expect everything to be hunky-dory or exactly what you expect. The enormous banlist was a result of a few people having overblown egos and "OH GOD THE THINGS I WANT TO USE JUST CAN'T HANDLE THIS". Newsflash; the things you want to use clearly aren't viable, then. It's not like VGC (or older metagames, remember how they only banned completely unstoppable things like RBY Mewtwo?) has ever struggled as a result.

                  We should only be banning inherently broken mechanics, and I adhere to this (notice how nothing is banned in NU anymore; Jynx wasn't broken and still isn't). As an example, Moody is an inherently broken mechanic; nothing can stop a Pokemon with Moody given enough boosts or extremely small chances. Moody is broken, Blaziken is not.


                  Quote:
                  Originally Posted by Pachy View Post
                  No. Just no. The problem is that Uber often bans SUPER EFFECTIVE as if it's BROKEN. Sorry, but I think nothing should be banned unless it absolutely has to be; I want to respect the intent of Game Freak too, because long drawn out battles really suck as much as short ones where you get slaughtered, or do the slaughtering.
                  Quote:
                  Originally Posted by Pachy View Post
                  I'm so for this. Anything to undermine Smogon's tiers is OK in my book. I feel like we deprive ourselves of what GF intended by overbanning things, and that smogon's tier system is WAY TOO HEAVY on the top and bottom. Seriously, look at Ubers and NU, they're the largest tiers.
                  I agree with the general intent of the first post (bar the latter bit because I don't know what you're saying at all and also the first part because the Uber tier does not ban anything) and disagree vehemently with the abysmal understanding going on in the second. Why does undermining Smogon's tiering mean anything? "WAY TOO HEAVY" means absolutely nothing in context, because you can use literally any Pokemon in the entire game in Ubers. The list of Pokemon only usable there (it's a banlist, not even necessarily considered a tier) means little, since a lot of the most popular Pokemon in that metagame are OU, even. NU is also large because we can't reasonably develop another tier and have a decent playerbase for both. Also, PU would likely be incredibly variant and uncompetitive because of the nature of using nothing but ****** mons.

                  anyway tl;dr I'm not participating if you guys plan on banning everything.
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                    #148    
                  Old April 18th, 2013 (2:49 PM).
                  Fire Flyy's Avatar
                  Fire Flyy Fire Flyy is offline
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                    I guess there will be always two schools of thoughts when it comes to tierings, people who think like Pachy and Vrai [I disagree with the first part of Vrais post completely but it's just opposing views really] and people like myself [and some others, a friend of mine form Smogon shares the same ideas], that offense can never be made 'un-viable' form bans and it's the offensive player's responsibility to plan out and strategically weaken certain links of a stall team so one mon can break through, rather than just throwing a landorus keldeo tyranitar at it and 6KOing everything when the SpDef Celebi gets owned by Landorus U-Turn. Anyways I just don't see PC OU as a success, maybe im being pessimistic but it didn't work out the first time and I'm not sure the site has the resources [player knowledge-wise] to make it a reality, sorry. I think everyone should just try to get good at smogon tiers but not shy away from any one of them bc they think its bad because of whatever theyve heard.
                      #149    
                    Old April 18th, 2013 (4:29 PM).
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                    Dark Azelf Dark Azelf is offline
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                      Well vrai last time we did this, we actually unbanned basically everything bar cover legends and Arceus, Mewtwo etc trying to make it so not every last little thing was banned and to open up some options for all play styles (iirc we even allowed Drizzle Swim or some form of it ? Maybe one sser per team i forgot). That metagame WAS very balanced, sure a couple of things like Doexys and Shaymin-S werent but yeah. However all that happened was people like Syndrome trolled and people didnt even want to try it, that is why it failed last time and why as nica said "i got pissed off" lol.

                      Idk maybe that would be a good starting point again ? But with Deo and Shaymin banned too and stuff like Thundy-I, Exca, Blaze, Manaphy etc all unbanned.

                      Anti makes an excellent point though, people need to actually stick to this or it will fail once more.

                      I also agree with Karps point of view, you really should have to think about breaking through teams and not just to quote him "throw Tar Keldeo and Landy at things" or hell just using something with base 140+ attack. I think that is what makes a balances metagame more than anything. These days you literally dont even have to use your brain, just click the strongest STAB move and watch things die.
                        #150    
                      Old April 18th, 2013 (7:16 PM).
                      Anti's Avatar
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                      I think we need a unified vision of how bans etc. would work (practically but especially philosophically) before we can do our own metagame. Otherwise it's just going to be like Congress or something.

                      Going to voice opposition to the idea of altering base stats etc. HUGELY opening pandora's box and that's not even getting into issues or purity or whatever. "slippery slope is a logical fallacy" yeah okay but seriously there are so many things I would change if I could, how could we possibly make that focused let alone reach consensus on what should be altered.

                      (Emphasis on consensus because this is small enough that that really should be the ideal if we do it.)

                      Quote:
                      Originally Posted by fire fly is 4x stealth rock weak you know
                      Anyways I just don't see PC OU as a success, maybe im being pessimistic but it didn't work out the first time and I'm not sure the site has the resources [player knowledge-wise] to make it a reality, sorry. I think everyone should just try to get good at smogon tiers but not shy away from any one of them bc they think its bad because of whatever theyve heard.
                      So I think the bold part is important.

                      Also just throwing this out there: there are fundamental limits to a forum-specific metagame that involve interactions between each other. I remember playing BW vs. wolf enough that we knew each others' teams, playing style (not team style but execution), etc. and while this was fun I feel like we would have a hard time actually making sense of the "metagame." Basically I'm suggesting that the scale might be an issue.

                      EDIT: Also I think it's awesome that so many people are posting, that was the purpose of the thread in many respects!
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