Serious How much more can America stomach?

EnglishALT · Jul 28, 2019

Maedar said:
Again, why punish the children for this? Don't your claims make them more the victims of a crime than criminals?

I am not for punishing the child, I believe they should be held in a proper and clean facility while they go through the immigration process, be subject to a DNA test to see if they are related to the person they are crossing with, and preferably stay with their parents inside the facility if at all possible.

Maedar said:
You can quote statistics all you like, it doesn't change the fact that you are trying to defend something that is cruel and inhumane.

Can you please tell me what other solutions exist to deal with this crisis?

Maedar said:
Also, you claimed we need the wall, I explained why it's not a feasible goal, I think ALL my points are VERY relevant, since they prove it's an unobtainable fantasy.

I... don't see anywhere in the video provided where a wall would be infeasible. Also just to note, considering the heat, vast stretches, of desert, and inherent danger of wild animals in the area, isn't it hurting the children by not having a wall up that would funnel them to a proper port of entry?

LDSman · Jul 28, 2019

Maedar said:
Define "barbarians"?

In this case, outsiders, low skilled laborers, people who may not wish to be Americans, just to benefit from the society. May not wish to adopt American culture and instead bring in their own culture. IE, their own justice system, their own leaders. Enclaves that ignore American laws in favor of their own.

That's a pretty callous statement, LDS.

Not sure how its callous to mention facts. The illegals immigrants aren't coming to be tourists.

Ask yourself this:

You live in a place with no electricity, and no running water. The water you have is the same water animals use as a toilet. Your children are uneducated, malnourished, and sick. You make around 10 cents an hour for a job you know you can do in America for $7.50 an hour.

Is a wall - or even a long stretch of desert - going to stop you?

Probably not. So what? I still assume the risk of being jailed and deported for breaking the laws of the destination country.

And as for your claim that "they're criminals, they deserve it"? First of all, the crime they commit is trespassing. I was arrested for trespassing 10 years ago. I got a desk appearance ticket (didn't have to pay bail) showed up in court with about 50 other folks who had been given similar citations, signed a no contest form and did 50 hours of community service. It wasn't even added to my record. What is happening to them now seems disproportionate.

There is a huge difference between trespassing and entering another country illegally with the intent of living and working there. Trespassing and felony B&E or squatting.

And I'm not aware of saying that claim.

Plus, they are children, which means "below age of consent" and not liable for such things. Children below age of consent can't be held legally responsible for what their parents do.

And as for your claims of child trafficking? Again, we do not believe you.

The children aren't being held legally responsible. Doesn't mean that they just get turned out onto the streets or given to strangers claiming to be relatives. See Alt's response to not believing me.

Maedar · Jul 28, 2019

I am not for punishing the child, I believe they should be held in a proper and clean facility while they go through the immigration process, be subject to a DNA test to see if they are related to the person they are crossing with, and preferably stay with their parents inside the facility if at all possible.

So why isn't anyone in the Trump administration willing to pass reform? Why does McConnell continue to block bills to correct this system?

The children aren't being held legally responsible.

They are being jailed and held in filthy conditions.

EnglishALT · Jul 28, 2019

Maedar said:
So why isn't anyone in the Trump administration willing to pass reform? Why does McConnell continue to block bills to correct this system?

Trump recently signed a 5 billion dollar border bill.

https://nypost.com/2019/07/01/trump-signs-bill-granting-4-6b-in-emergency-funds-for-us-border/

The Trump Administration has also been trying to set up a Safe Third Country relationship with countries south of the US border to stem the flow, he got the Mexican army to provide greater enforcement of their own southern border, and has kept the "Remain in Mexico" deal which helps deter migrants who are only trying to get into America for economic reasons.

There is also a bill in the House that would make DNA testing required for all migrants, with anyone trying to scam the system subject to ten years in prison.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/go...t-border-as-officials-warn-of-child-recycling

Maedar · Jul 28, 2019

In this case, outsiders, low skilled laborers, people who may not wish to be Americans, just to benefit from the society. May not wish to adopt American culture and instead bring in their own culture. IE, their own justice system, their own leaders. Enclaves that ignore American laws in favor of their own.

I do not see why "outsider" means "barbarian". "Guest" might be another term.

Diversity is what has always made America strong, LDS. What does it say on the Statue of Liberty's plaque.

sure how its callous to mention facts. The illegals immigrants aren't coming to be tourists.

You claimed they were coming for a "slice of pie". IMOHO, that's like saying "let them eat cake". These people are starving, poverty stricken, and ill.

The children aren't being held legally responsible. Doesn't mean that they just get turned out onto the streets or given to strangers claiming to be relatives. See Alt's response to not believing me.

So caging them and treating them like animals is preferable? Why do you condone that?

Trump recently signed a 5 billion dollar border bill.

And how did we accomplish THAT?? Compromise. Something Trump has, 95% of the time, refused to do. He has mostly ruled by Executive Order, something he condemned Obama for doing.

I have to go to work now, so I'll end with this: We are not on the same page, ALT. You keep giving me statistics and laws to justify something I find morally and ethically wrong.

Just because an authority figure CAN do something doesn't mean he SHOULD. The terms "unlawful" and "evil" are two very different things. Trump's policies are usually within the laws of the country, but IMOHO, directly oppose the laws of God.

EnglishALT · Jul 28, 2019

Maedar said:
I have to go to work now, so I'll end with this: We are not on the same page, ALT. You keep giving me statistics and laws to justify something I find morally and ethically wrong.

Just because an authority figure CAN do something doesn't mean he SHOULD. The terms "unlawful" and "evil" are two very different things. Trump's policies are usually within the laws of the country, but IMOHO, directly oppose the laws of God.

Okay, for a third time, I ask how would you deal with the crisis then? You have upwards of a million people from all over the world crossing the southern border, you have families that may or may not be related crossing, and the vast majority of them that are being released are disappearing and not showing up for their court date. Can you please explain what would be a better plan for this situation?

I hope you have a good day at work, and I am interested to see what plan you would present to deal with the current crisis.

LDSman · Jul 28, 2019

Maedar said:
I do not see why "outsider" means "barbarian". "Guest" might be another term.

A guest is someone you invite in. Not someone who sneaks in during the night or in through a window.

Diversity is what has always made America strong, LDS. What does it say on the Statue of Liberty's plaque.

To a point. We are all Americans. If someone is not willing to be an American, they are not a strength. If the laws in their area are not the laws of Americans, how is that a strength?

You claimed they were coming for a "slice of pie". IMOHO, that's like saying "let them eat cake". These people are starving, poverty stricken, and ill.

Historically, that is not the same saying in any way. "Let them eat cake" was supposedly from a queen who had no clue that cake flour was more expensive that bread flour and that poor peasants couldn't afford cake flour when the bread flour ran out. She was oblivious to facts. Wanting a "slice of the pie" is wanting to benefit from the hard work.

So caging them and treating them like animals is preferable? Why do you condone that?

They aren't being caged and treated like animals.

gimmepie · Jul 28, 2019

I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to detain immigrants as long as it's temporary, humane and comfortable and provides them with the chance to develop the skills and knowledge they'll need to make a life for themselves over the border - with the intent to provide a path into the country. The trouble I feel here has a lot more to do with the conditions and the intent than with the detainment itself.

LDSman · Jul 28, 2019

gimmepie said:
I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to detain immigrants as long as it's temporary, humane and comfortable and provides them with the chance to develop the skills and knowledge they'll need to make a life for themselves over the border - with the intent to provide a path into the country. The trouble I feel here has a lot more to do with the conditions and the intent than with the detainment itself.

Problem is how long would it take to provide those skills and knowledge? Which skills? What knowledge? Are we talking basic English and an overview of the average American lifestyle or a high school/college diploma so the immigrant can have a good job as opposed to a very low level job? How much would that run and how many people would be needed to run it?

EnglishALT · Jul 28, 2019

gimmepie said:
I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to detain immigrants as long as it's temporary, humane and comfortable and provides them with the chance to develop the skills and knowledge they'll need to make a life for themselves over the border - with the intent to provide a path into the country. The trouble I feel here has a lot more to do with the conditions and the intent than with the detainment itself.

May I ask, is there any set number you believe a country should allow each year? 10,000? 100,000? A million? The reason I ask is that you say that detention should be temporary with a path into the country, but does that not create a flood of immigrants into the system, thus causing the problems we spoke about earlier with overflowing schools, a lack of jobs, and a overburdened welfare system?

gimmepie · Jul 28, 2019

LDSman said:
Problem is how long would it take to provide those skills and knowledge? Which skills? What knowledge? Are we talking basic English and an overview of the average American lifestyle or a high school/college diploma so the immigrant can have a good job as opposed to a very low level job? How much would that run and how many people would be needed to run it?

I'd settle for basic English and any important legal information that was needed with improving facilities as the main goal. I think the idea of at the very least providing children appropriate schooling during detainment in the mean time is a good idea though and something to work towards.

gimmepie · Jul 28, 2019

EnglishALT said:
May I ask, is there any set number you believe a country should allow each year? 10,000? 100,000? A million? The reason I ask is that you say that detention should be temporary with a path into the country, but does that not create a flood of immigrants into the system, thus causing the problems we spoke about earlier with overflowing schools, a lack of jobs, and a overburdened welfare system?

I couldn't say for sure on that, but I think having such a policy certainly becomes a lot more plausible in a system where the detention is comfortable and even potentially helpful thanks to the education available.

Edit: Oh shit double post, my bad.

Hands · Jul 29, 2019

EnglishALT said:
It all depends on how it affects the individual person, the Eric Garner case while a miscarriage of justice won't really be noticed in all the noise outside of those that are actively following it.

The "Concentration Camps", well we can disagree on the use of that word to describe those buildings, but I would say the attack on them and the recent raising of the Mexican flag on their property does more damage than helps. Even the use of the word "Concentration Camps" to describe them probably sends most people into eye rolls.

As for the "Send her back" chants, while wrong, I am interested to see how it plays out, the "Squad" has said some pretty outrageous things, that the GOP has now made a campaign video of, and her sponsoring a BDS vote certainly will not help her in the eyes of the American public.

Anyway to answer your question, Americans are quite resilient when it comes to the outrageous outrage of politics, and usually pretty quick to forget and move on. What may seem shocking and anger educing to you or I will be forgotten by this time next year.

They are unarguably concentration camps. The fact American citizens have ended up in them because they look foreign should speak volumes about what their intended purpose is.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/concentration-camp

EnglishALT · Jul 29, 2019

Hands said:
They are unarguably concentration camps. The fact American citizens have ended up in them because they look foreign should speak volumes about what their intended purpose is.

If you are speaking about Francisco Erwin Galicia, the reason he ended up in custody was because he was traveling in the car with other illegal immigrants, and his own illegal immigrant mother screwed up on his VISA saying he was born in Mexico, leading to ICE to think his documents were fake. It is sad he was detained but it is not like he was picked up because he looked foreign.

https://heavy.com/news/2019/07/francisco-erwin-galicia/

Hands said:
https://www.britannica.com/topic/concentration-camp

Concentration camp, internment centre for political prisoners and members of national or minority groups who are confined for reasons of state security, exploitation, or punishment, usually by executive decree or military order.

Well lets look at this, they are not members of a national or minority group, they are not being confined for state security, exploitation, or punishment unless you believe being confined for immigration processing is a state security reason, which I would then ask why are they being let out after their case is processed?

Persons are placed in such camps often on the basis of identification with a particular ethnic or political group rather than as individuals and without benefit either of indictment or fair trial.

Again not being placed in on the basis of a particular ethnic or political group, and they are allowed the opportunity to plead their case for asylum in front of a judge.

Concentration camps are to be distinguished from prisons interning persons lawfully convicted of civil crimes and from prisoner-of-war camps in which captured military personnel are held under the laws of war. They are also to be distinguished from refugee camps or detention and relocation centres for the temporary accommodation of large numbers of displaced persons.

The last one, being a detention center for the temporary accommodation of large numbers of displaced persons would most likely fit the descriptions of these camps.

So your link proves they are not concentration camps!

Nah · Jul 29, 2019

Tbh the semantics aren't important. Whatever we call them, the important thing is that under no circumstances are the conditions at the border acceptable, and it's not good that the president and his administration think that they are doing a good job.

Hands · Jul 30, 2019

EnglishALT said:
If you are speaking about Francisco Erwin Galicia, the reason he ended up in custody was because he was traveling in the car with other illegal immigrants, and his own illegal immigrant mother screwed up on his VISA saying he was born in Mexico, leading to ICE to think his documents were fake. It is sad he was detained but it is not like he was picked up because he looked foreign.

https://heavy.com/news/2019/07/francisco-erwin-galicia/

Concentration camp, internment centre for political prisoners and members of national or minority groups who are confined for reasons of state security, exploitation, or punishment, usually by executive decree or military order.

Well lets look at this, they are not members of a national or minority group, they are not being confined for state security, exploitation, or punishment unless you believe being confined for immigration processing is a state security reason, which I would then ask why are they being let out after their case is processed?

Persons are placed in such camps often on the basis of identification with a particular ethnic or political group rather than as individuals and without benefit either of indictment or fair trial.

Again not being placed in on the basis of a particular ethnic or political group, and they are allowed the opportunity to plead their case for asylum in front of a judge.

Concentration camps are to be distinguished from prisons interning persons lawfully convicted of civil crimes and from prisoner-of-war camps in which captured military personnel are held under the laws of war. They are also to be distinguished from refugee camps or detention and relocation centres for the temporary accommodation of large numbers of displaced persons.

The last one, being a detention center for the temporary accommodation of large numbers of displaced persons would most likely fit the descriptions of these camps.

So your link proves they are not concentration camps!

Only they are strictly for minority groups lol. How many white Brits who overstayed their visas are in the camps? How many Canadian kids have gone missing or died in the camps?

It's entirely politically motivated. Trump has ran his entire campaign on the "Mexican Terror" and these camps are a part of it. The Govt has consistently referred to the caravans or migrants themselves as a risk to national security (the wall is entirely based on this) and they are targeting people exclusively based on their ethnic appearance. There's literally no reasonable denying it.

It also doesn't matter what his mother's status was or if she made an admin error, he had an American birth certificate, SSN and his lawyer provided every other document they asked for and he was still held for three weeks in squalid conditions, denied access to a phone call, denied access to sanitary facilities (this would actually be a war crime if it happened to a prisoner of war) and was underfed. The fact you defend this is honestly worrying.

I'm glad you glossed over the conditions though. Those camps are not fit for humans. At all. Kids sleeping on cold concrete, overcrowded cells, masked guards, physical cages. These camps make the British concentration camps of the Boer war look tolerable.

EnglishALT · Jul 30, 2019

Hands said:
Only they are strictly for minority groups lol. How many white Brits who overstayed their visas are in the camps? How many Canadian kids have gone missing or died in the camps?

How many Brits or Canadian kids are crossing the border illegally and applying for asylum?

Hands said:
It's entirely politically motivated. Trump has ran his entire campaign on the "Mexican Terror" and these camps are a part of it. The Govt has consistently referred to the caravans or migrants themselves as a risk to national security (the wall is entirely based on this) and they are targeting people exclusively based on their ethnic appearance. There's literally no reasonable denying it.

So it's entirely politically motivated, then these camps did not exist before Trump?

https://www.businessinsider.com/migrant-children-in-cages-2014-photos-explained-2018-5

Now letting the caravans in with out properly documenting each person, making sure they do not have a criminal history, making sure they are not carrying diseases is a national security risk. However that is not what is happening here is it? They are putting people in these camps, and then slowly releasing them. So again I ask, if they pose such a national security risk by letting them out at all, why are they going through the process of allowing them to apply for asylum?

As for targeting people based on ethnic appearance, do you mind providing an example, as I already shot one down.

Hands said:
It also doesn't matter what his mother's status was or if she made an admin error, he had an American birth certificate, SSN and his lawyer provided every other document they asked for and he was still held for three weeks in squalid conditions, denied access to a phone call, denied access to sanitary facilities (this would actually be a war crime if it happened to a prisoner of war) and was underfed. The fact you defend this is honestly worrying.

I have not defended the state of the facilities, I have said more money needs to be placed in there, more man power, etc etc. However the fact documents like birth certificates and social security numbers are easily faked in the US, and that his name was bringing up problems in the system, can be understood as to why he was taken into custody. It was not a case of "Oh he looks hispanic, get him" as you made it out to be.

Hands said:
I'm glad you glossed over the conditions though. Those camps are not fit for humans. At all. Kids sleeping on cold concrete, overcrowded cells, masked guards, physical cages. These camps make the British concentration camps of the Boer war look tolerable.

They are overcrowded no doubt, there needs to be better living conditions and more money placed into it. That is one thing we both agree on.

Hands · Jul 30, 2019

EnglishALT said:
How many Brits or Canadian kids are crossing the border illegally and applying for asylum?

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2018/08/07/dhs-foreigners-overstayed-visas-2017/924316002/

Canadians are the biggest offenders for overstaying visa and a noted number of French and Brits routinely overstay visas as well. Yet ICE isn't stopping busses of white people to make sure none of those pesky red coats are hiding on them.

Also, you cannot illegally cross a border and apply for asylum. If you are applying for asylum you are following international law and therefore your crossing of the border was legal. You would only be illegally entering the country if you failed to seek asylum and successfully entered the country off the grid.

So it's entirely politically motivated, then these camps did not exist before Trump?

That's a logical fallacy. The camps existing before Trump is completely irrelevant. It was wrong then, absolutely, but he has rapidly increased the scope of it.

https://cmsny.org/trumps-executive-orders-immigration-refugees/

https://time.com/4473972/donald-trump-mexico-meeting-insult/

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/09/trump-ice/565772/

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2...ights-advocates-vow-fight-unlawful-trump-plan

https://globalnews.ca/news/4284138/separation-children-parents-us-border-permanent/

Of course, not that it matters who started it, the US has always been institutionally racist, whether it was Obama's ICE caging US citizens for years or Trump's ICE "losing" over 3,000 children.

Now letting the caravans in with out properly documenting each person, making sure they do not have a criminal history, making sure they are not carrying diseases is a national security risk.

So, we're in agreement it's presented as a national security risk, gotcha.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...rant-detention-camp-donna-texas-a9023591.html so much so that the US army are now manning some of the camps. An army branch of a far right govt manning camps comprised entirely of minority groups. I can't quite put my finger on it, but I think this happened before somewhere a few times. Tricky, it's almost like there's a repeat going on of...well.....geez...British/German/Japanese/French/Spanish/American concentration camps of olde!

However that is not what is happening here is it? They are putting people in these camps, and then slowly releasing them.

Some people are literally there for years. There are people in ICE detention who've been there longer than most British POWs were in Japanese camps during the second World War.

So again I ask, if they pose such a national security risk by letting them out at all, why are they going through the process of allowing them to apply for asylum?

pesky little thing called International Law.

As for targeting people based on ethnic appearance, do you mind providing an example, as I already shot one down.

uh yeah, there were over 300,000 (that's more than Mexicans who attempted to enter the country illegally) white foreigners who overstayed their visas since Trump came into office (and we will see it increase again for 2018) and yet not a single one of them has ended up in the camps and ICE are not out there demanding to see the papers and birth certificates of whites on the street, in busses, at work etc on the off chance they're an illegal brit or canadian.

I have not defended the state of the facilities

No, just their right to detain children in squalid conditions almost indefinitely with no due process.

I have said more money needs to be placed in there, more man power, etc etc

https://www.gq.com/story/trump-detention-camps-cost

they've already got plenty of money going in and still they're making kids eat frozen meals and refusing to let them wash. They've got the man power, it's walking around with guns.

However the fact documents like birth certificates and social security numbers are easily faked in the US, and that his name was bringing up problems in the system, can be understood as to why he was taken into custody.

They can check both of those for legitimacy with ease and simply refused to whilst also denying him his legal rights. So uh, it's not understandable in the slightest and would never have happened to a white person.

It was not a case of "Oh he looks hispanic, get him" as you made it out to be.

Yes it was. They aren't stop searching every car of whites they see, they are doing it to every car of "Hispanic looking people" they see.

They are overcrowded no doubt, there needs to be better living conditions and more money placed into it. That is one thing we both agree on.

Again, they are already paying the equivalent of roughly $23,000 pcm per kid. How much more money do you need to supply $60 beds and basic sanitary facilities? Also I don't agree with you at all, I think every ICE official should be tried at the Hague and the camps shut down and left empty as a reminder to the world just how despicable the apparent land of the free really is.

EnglishALT · Jul 30, 2019

Hands said:
https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2018/08/07/dhs-foreigners-overstayed-visas-2017/924316002/

Canadians are the biggest offenders for overstaying visa and a noted number of French and Brits routinely overstay visas as well. Yet ICE isn't stopping busses of white people to make sure none of those pesky red coats are hiding on them.

Except these border camps are not for those overstaying their VISAs, they are for those who have been picked up crossing the border illegally, a rather massive difference. Are you suggesting that if a Hispanic person were to overstay his or her VISA they would be put into a border camp, while a French or British citizen would not? If so where is your proof that is happening?

Hands said:
Also, you cannot illegally cross a border and apply for asylum. If you are applying for asylum you are following international law and therefore your crossing of the border was legal. You would only be illegally entering the country if you failed to seek asylum and successfully entered the country off the grid.

You can seek asylum by applying for it at a port of entry, in which case the person will stay in Mexico until their case is processed. Entering the US by illegally crossing the border however is still a crime, it does not matter if they are trying to seek asylum or not.

Hands said:
That's a logical fallacy. The camps existing before Trump is completely irrelevant. It was wrong then, absolutely, but he has rapidly increased the scope of it.

https://cmsny.org/trumps-executive-orders-immigration-refugees/

https://time.com/4473972/donald-trump-mexico-meeting-insult/

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/09/trump-ice/565772/

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2...ights-advocates-vow-fight-unlawful-trump-plan

https://globalnews.ca/news/4284138/separation-children-parents-us-border-permanent/

Of course, not that it matters who started it, the US has always been institutionally racist, whether it was Obama's ICE caging US citizens for years or Trump's ICE "losing" over 3,000 children.

They are completely relevant as your argument is, and I quote: It's entirely politically motivated. Trump has ran his entire campaign on the "Mexican Terror" and these camps are a part of it.

If these camps are part of US policy before Trump became President, to deal with a massive wave of migrants, then how can these camps be politically motivated by Trump?

Hands said:
So, we're in agreement it's presented as a national security risk, gotcha.

Only if they are not processed.

Hands said:
Some people are literally there for years. There are people in ICE detention who've been there longer than most British POWs were in Japanese camps during the second World War.

Proof please.

Hands said:
pesky little thing called International Law.

So wait are they concentration camps or are they processing camps for asylum cases?

Hands said:
uh yeah, there were over 30,000 (that's 10,000 more than Mexicans who attempted to enter the country illegally) white foreigners who overstayed their visas in both 2016 and again in 2017 (and we will see it again for 2018) and yet not a single one of them has ended up in the camps and ICE are not out there demanding to see the papers and birth certificates of whites on the street, in busses, at work etc on the off chance they're an illegal brit or canadian.

Again I ask, have you any proof that VISA overstays are being sent to camps meant to process people who illegally cross the border, and not the normal prison system?

Hands said:
https://www.gq.com/story/trump-detention-camps-cost

they've already got plenty of money going in and still they're making kids eat frozen meals and refusing to let them wash. They've got the man power, it's walking around with guns.

If they have the money then why did Congress just a few weeks ago have to approve billions more?

Hands said:
They can check both of those for legitimacy with ease and simply refused to whilst also denying him his legal rights. So uh, it's not understandable in the slightest and would never have happened to a white person.

You seem to have this insider knowledge of how quickly a government agent can go through the system to check the credentials of the hundreds of people apprehended each day. You mind providing proof as to where you got this information?

Hands said:
Yes it was. They aren't stop searching every car of whites they see, they are doing it to every car of "Hispanic looking people" they see.

So, you have proof they are stopping people purely based on race? That seems like a racial profiling lawsuit in the making and not based on any proof what so ever.

Mind you Francisco Erwin Galicia was stopped at a border patrol check point in Falfurrias, Texas, not far from the Mexican border, check points that from personal experience I can tell you, they stop every car, no matter the skin color of the driver.

Hands said:
Again, they are already paying the equivalent of roughly $23,000 pcm per kid. How much more money do you need to supply $60 beds and basic sanitary facilities?

Apparently alot when you consider the cost it takes to build and maintain each of these facilities which are not equipped to handle this many people.

Hands · Jul 30, 2019

EnglishALT said:
Except these border camps are not for those overstaying their VISAs, they are for those who have been picked up crossing the border illegally, a rather massive difference. Are you suggesting that if a Hispanic person were to overstay his or her VISA they would be put into a border camp, while a French or British citizen would not? If so where is your proof that is happening?

Yes, they absolutely would be detained awaiting deportation. ICE operates more than just a few border camps. Most people in detention under ICE are not at bordercamps.

You can seek asylum by applying for it at a port of entry, in which case the person will stay in Mexico until their case is processed. Entering the US by illegally crossing the border however is still a crime, it does not matter if they are trying to seek asylum or not.

https://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/refugees-asylum

You can apply for asylum after crossing the border. So it does matter. That's how the law works.

They are completely relevant as your argument is, and I quote: It's entirely politically motivated. Trump has ran his entire campaign on the "Mexican Terror" and these camps are a part of it.

If these camps are part of US policy before Trump became President, to deal with a massive wave of migrants, then how can these camps be politically motivated by Trump?

Because, as explained to you previously, Trump has increased the scope of both ICE and has ran an entire campaign on demonizing minorities, particularly Mexicans, and creating a culture of fear. For Obama, ICE was an ugly secret. For Trump its a political tool of propaganda.

Proof please.

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo...-3-years-denied-compensation-by-appeals-court

https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brie...-ice-detained-us-citizen-for-almost-two-years

So wait are they concentration camps or are they processing camps for asylum cases?

Concentration camps.

Again I ask, have you any proof that VISA overstays are being sent to camps meant to process people who illegally cross the border, and not the normal prison system?

You seem to misunderstand, the conditions in any of ICE's detention centers are poor, not simply the border ones.

If they have the money then why did Congress just a few weeks ago have to approve billions more?

Because children are actively dying and the US must be seen to be doing something to address this.

You seem to have this insider knowledge of how quickly a government agent can go through the system to check the credentials of the hundreds of people apprehended each day. You mind providing proof as to where you got this information?

https://www.ssa.gov/employer/ssnv.htm

companies can literally do it online it's that easy.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/cs/us/uk...59287&o_lid=59287&o_sch=Paid+Search+Non+Brand

Hell, regular people can check a birth certificate out. These are things that are commonly recorded.

So, you have proof they are stopping people purely based on race? That seems like a racial profiling lawsuit in the making and not based on any proof what so ever.

https://splinternews.com/u-s-man-is-suing-after-ice-holds-him-in-jail-for-3-wee-1793927348

Funny how none of these are ever coming from "John Smith" huh?

Mind you Francisco Erwin Galicia was stopped at a border patrol check point in Falfurrias, Texas, not far from the Mexican border, check points that from personal experience I can tell you, they stop every car, no matter the skin color of the driver.

How many white Americans have been detained for three weeks without access to a phone call and had their lawyers ignored when they present legal documentation that clears their client?

I don't think anecdotal evidence is acceptable by community standards as proof, but I can tell you that I have never once had any border agent demand my passport or any other form of ID unless I was at an airport. When we travel for work, it's only ever the engies who aren't white who get stopped and questioned, even though we're all foreign.

Apparently alot when you consider the cost it takes to build and maintain each of these facilities which are not equipped to handle this many people.

You'd be surprised how little tents and chickenwire costs. But for context, the average cost to house a single prisoner in the US per year ranges between $23,000 - $60,000 and they have better amnesties than these kids have who cost the taxpayer the equivalent of $276,000 per year per kid. So whatever way you spin it, there is no justification for what is happening and the UN human rights chief agrees. The UN is a legitimate source in your eyes on other topics, particularly the treatment of prisoners in another country, so I hope you treat it with the same weight when applied to the detention of children in the United States

https://news.un.org/en/story/2019/07/1041991

Serious How much more can America stomach?

More options

EnglishALT

LDSman

Maedar

Banned

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Maedar

Banned

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LDSman

gimmepie

LDSman

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gimmepie

gimmepie

Hands

I was saying Boo-urns

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Nah

Hands

I was saying Boo-urns

EnglishALT

Hands

I was saying Boo-urns

EnglishALT

Hands

I was saying Boo-urns