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Old January 27th, 2018 (3:21 AM). Edited January 27th, 2018 by KetsuekiR.
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Originally Posted by Aliencommander1245 View Post
A dying tantrum after exhausting all other options to try and remove a good thing put legally and legislatively in place isn't at all the same as not voting for a bill because it holds parts that you disagree with and isn't acting on a very pressing issue. There's a very clear difference in doing something in what amounts to shutting down the government for pointscoring versus having it be used to be in a position to actually negotiate something related to the bill that they didn't like (that the majority of the population wants, and that was promised to be negotiated about and yet still not) because you've been put in a bad position to start with.

Dreamers having no



But it wasn't negotiated, which is why they didn't vote for it? How is voting against the bill based on that part of it somehow a dying tantrum?

The program hasn't ended but the position it's in now is progressively cutting people out of it as time goes on, which is why it's such a pressing issue
The issue I'm seeing in your argument is that Obamacare and DACA are both programmes you seem to support. This is not the thread to get into on whether either programme works and how it should happen. That said, it seems to me that you oppose the Republican shutdown in 2013 and support the Dem shut down in 2018 because the former opposed a bill you support and the latter supports a change you oppose.

DACA was brought to the negotiating table multiple times, but did not go through due to unreasonable requirements from one or both sides. To say it was not addressed at all would be false and quite distracting from reality.

I believe both shutdowns are bad and that shutdowns in general - especially when orchestrated (as this has been according to the Democratic party itself) - is a bullying tactic used when you don't get your way.

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That's not true at all, it's not at all unconstituional and despite going to the courts it's never been ruled as such, and there's no legal consensus if it is or not. Obama didn't state that he "couldn't do it via congress" he said that it was a stop gap until a Dreamers bill could be put through congress (which it still hasn't been).
A "stop gap" that bypasses congress because it is unable to pass a bill is still bypassing congress. Thus the government being shut down over a stop gap that details a bill that still hasn't passed through Congress years later, given that there are two more months to work on the possibility of a bill.

Whether or not you support Dreamers and the DACA program, Trump, Obama or whatever else, I find it hard to deny the Dems caused the shutdown as a means of taking hostage.
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Old January 27th, 2018 (7:04 AM).
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    Quote:

    Dreamers having no
    Missing words?



    Quote:
    But it wasn't negotiated, which is why they didn't vote for it? How is voting against the bill based on that part of it somehow a dying tantrum?

    The program hasn't ended but the position it's in now is progressively cutting people out of it as time goes on, which is why it's such a pressing issue
    The Dems had six years to work on this.





    Quote:
    That's not true at all, it's not at all unconstitutional and despite going to the courts it's never been ruled as such, and there's no legal consensus if it is or not. Obama didn't state that he "couldn't do it via congress" he said that it was a stop gap until a Dreamers bill could be put through congress (which it still hasn't been).
    I refer you back to the link with the judge's comments on DACA. It went to court and except for a jurisdictional issue would have been ruled against by that judge.

    Obama's own words.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gw4BIWiWyQg
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    Old December 22nd, 2018 (5:37 AM).
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    figure I might as well just bump this and see what happens

    https://www.aol.com/article/news/2018/12/21/government-partially-shut-down-in-fight-over-trumps-border-wall/23624967/

    we got another government shutdown again....well, a partial one anyway
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    Old December 22nd, 2018 (8:12 AM).
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      I put the fault on the Democrats. They’re fighting to keep an illegal program going.
      Which program are you talking about?
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      Old December 22nd, 2018 (9:19 AM).
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      Honestly, this is the most ridiculous shutdown I’ve ever experienced. Why the psyduck are we still discussing this ridiculous border wall? Even if it was built, there are so many other ways for people to get into the country. Why are we still arguing over this waste of money?
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      Old December 22nd, 2018 (9:36 AM).
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        Honestly, this is the most ridiculous shutdown I’ve ever experienced. Why the psyduck are we still discussing this ridiculous border wall? Even if it was built, there are so many other ways for people to get into the country. Why are we still arguing over this waste of money?
        The border is I believe the biggest gaping hole in our country’s immigration system, the next being people overstaying their VISAs which is a bit harder to control. There is also the problem of drugs and other contraband coming across the border that could be slowed or stopped with a wall.
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        Old December 22nd, 2018 (11:22 AM).
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        The border is I believe the biggest gaping hole in our country’s immigration system, the next being people overstaying their VISAs which is a bit harder to control. There is also the problem of drugs and other contraband coming across the border that could be slowed or stopped with a wall.
        You think drug/contraband dealers haven’t been circumnavigating every border check in existence since we even began immigration policy? The only people hurt by this wall would be innocent immigrants trying to escape violence and poverty. Drug/contraband dealers can and would find ways around the wall, probably without much effort. Besides, unless we put firing squads on the beaches of every state bordering the Gulf of Mexico - or any body of water, really - people can literally just boat into the country though an unsecure spot. Coast Guard can’t be everywhere at once.
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        Old December 22nd, 2018 (12:01 PM).
        EnglishALT EnglishALT is online now
           
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          Originally Posted by Trev View Post
          You think drug/contraband dealers haven’t been circumnavigating every border check in existence since we even began immigration policy? The only people hurt by this wall would be innocent immigrants trying to escape violence and poverty. Drug/contraband dealers can and would find ways around the wall, probably without much effort. Besides, unless we put firing squads on the beaches of every state bordering the Gulf of Mexico - or any body of water, really - people can literally just boat into the country though an unsecure spot. Coast Guard can’t be everywhere at once.
          Well first they are not innocent immigrants, they are illegal immigrants many if not the vast majority of whom are only coming over for money to send back to their families. If you ever want a “liveable wage” or “fight for 15” to succeed you must stop the flow of illegal labor.

          As for drugs forcing drug cartels to switch from an open border that goes for thousands of miles, to having to operate out of boats and harbors is a major win. It narrows their ability to transport drugs and people, and makes them far more easier to spot by the coast guard.
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          Old December 22nd, 2018 (12:20 PM). Edited December 22nd, 2018 by Trev.
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          Well first they are not innocent immigrants, they are illegal immigrants many if not the vast majority of whom are only coming over for money to send back to their families. If you ever want a “liveable wage” or “fight for 15” to succeed you must stop the flow of illegal labor.

          As for drugs forcing drug cartels to switch from an open border that goes for thousands of miles, to having to operate out of boats and harbors is a major win. It narrows their ability to transport drugs and people, and makes them far more easier to spot by the coast guard.
          The vast majority are escaping violence or poverty. Also, there’s literally nothing wrong with wanting to come here to support their family, even if their family is in another country. A lot of immigrants, whether “illegal” or “legal,” and regardless of their country of origin, do that. And a person’s innocence is not determined by the legality of their immigration. “Innocence” in the method in which I used it refers to whether they break laws that actually matter, like committing violence. Not every immigrant is a drug dealer or terrorist, and “illegal” immigrants do a lot of great work for this country, especially in the farming district.

          To be quite honest, my stances on border security begin and end at protecting immigrants who are fleeing horrible situations or trying to support their families. I’m not concerned with policies that “stop drugs” if it puts immigrants back in dangerous situations. You can disagree with that all you want, but that is an unmovable stance and you won’t convince me otherwise.
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          Old December 22nd, 2018 (12:24 PM).
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          Which program are you talking about?
          DACA. When this thread was first posted, the government shutdown it was about happened to have some relation to DACA and so was part of the conversation then.
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          Old December 22nd, 2018 (12:37 PM).
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            The vast majority are escaping violence or poverty. Also, there’s literally nothing wrong with wanting to come here to support their family, even if their family is in another country. A lot of immigrants, whether “illegal” or “legal,” and regardless of their country of origin, do that. And a person’s innocence is not determined by the legality of their immigration. “Innocence” in the method in which I used it refers to whether they break laws that actually matter, like committing violence. Not every immigrant is a drug dealer or terrorist, and “illegal” immigrants do a lot of great work for this country, especially in the farming district.
            You can pick and choose which laws you think matter but the fact remains they are breaking the law. Laws that mind you every nation on the planet has. Coming over here for money is not a reason to escape onto America for asylum. There are billions around the world that would love to do that, however they do not have access to a porus border to cross over. They must follow the laws to come here legally.

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            To be quite honest, my stances on border security begin and end at protecting immigrants who are fleeing horrible situations or trying to support their families. I’m not concerned with policies that “stop drugs” if it puts immigrants back in dangerous situations. You can disagree with that all you want, but that is an unmovable stance and you won’t convince me otherwise.
            Let me ask do you care about the immigrants who live in say the Middle East? China? North Korea? Russia? Those that cannot easily escape to America and live in far worse locations than central and South America? Those people must follow the law to come here, laws being spit upon by those that skip ahead in line to come here illegally. Shouldn’t we treat all immigrants fairly, shouldn’t we not favor one group because of their location of birth or skin color? If so then we should punish those that break the law and try to get in this country while others are forced to wait.
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            Old December 22nd, 2018 (12:53 PM).
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            You can pick and choose which laws you think matter but the fact remains they are breaking the law. Laws that mind you every nation on the planet has. Coming over here for money is not a reason to escape onto America for asylum. There are billions around the world that would love to do that, however they do not have access to a porus border to cross over. They must follow the laws to come here legally.
            Again, I genuinely do not care if they break that specific law, nor do I care if other countries have that law as well. If they aren’t hurting me (and they aren’t) or others, then I don’t care and never will. If they break a law that matters and seriously hurt others, then I’ll care.

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            Let me ask do you care about the immigrants who live in say the Middle East? China? North Korea? Russia? Those that cannot easily escape to America and live in far worse locations than central and South America? Those people must follow the law to come here, laws being spit upon by those that skip ahead in line to come here illegally. Shouldn’t we treat all immigrants fairly, shouldn’t we not favor one group because of their location of birth or skin color? If so then we should punish those that break the law and try to get in this country while others are forced to wait.
            Where did I say I was favoring any country’s immigrants? Don’t put words in my mouth.

            A lot of immigrants just don’t have the luxury of waiting, even for asylum. Some situations are just that bad, and the immigration processing system takes forever, up to years. So maybe if every single immigrant ever was not in a situation that put them in immediate danger, then I would probably agree. However, many are, and I don’t care for the bloated bureaucracy if it puts people in danger because they can’t stay in a country where they’re safe when applying for immigrant status.
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            Old December 22nd, 2018 (1:02 PM). Edited December 22nd, 2018 by EnglishALT.
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              Again, I genuinely do not care if they break that specific law, nor do I care if other countries have that law as well. If they aren’t hurting me (and they aren’t) or others, then I don’t care and never will. If they break a law that matters and seriously hurt others, then I’ll care.
              Except they are hurting you, many businesses hire illegal labor because they are cheap and can be counted on to work hard. That provides an alternative to hiring more expensive American labor. If you live in a border state then you have to pay extra taxes for illegals using the hospitals and the children of illegals using the school system. If you are a driver anywhere really in the US you have to worry about getting into a car crash with an illegal alien as they tend to not have insurance thus you will have to pay for any damages.

              In other words it’s kind of ignorant to say it is not hurting you.



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              Where did I say I was favoring any country’s immigrants? Don’t put words in my mouth.

              A lot of immigrants just don’t have the luxury of waiting, even for asylum. Some situations are just that bad, and the immigration processing system takes forever, up to years. So maybe if every single immigrant ever was not in a situation that put them in immediate danger, then I would probably agree. However, many are, and I don’t care for the bloated bureaucracy if it puts people in danger because they can’t stay in a country where they’re safe when applying for immigrant status.
              By favoring illegal immigration you are favoring those who can cross the border as opposed to those that cannot. People living in Libya or Syria cannot walk across the border into the US, they must wait for their application for asylum to be heard, the same goes for gays living in Russia, or Muslims living in China, or any number of people with actual asylum claims, put in people that are poor and just want to make more money and you can include practically the vast majority of the world. However they must wait for the asylum process, they must wait through the bloated bureaucracy as you called it. So why should those that live in central or South America get special dispensation? Why should they get the benefits of America while those who go through the system don’t? To put it simply why are you willing to allow some people to break the rules while everyone else must play by them?
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              Old December 22nd, 2018 (1:23 PM).
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              Except they are hurting you, many businesses hire illegal labor because they are cheap and can be counted on to work hard.
              The jobs that the majority of Mexican immigrants take are not jobs that I would ever apply for. And frankly, if an immigrant who has my same qualifications but works harder and is willing to accept less pay to get the job I want is hired for those reasons, then I’m not pressed. That’s an experience that can happen regardless of somone’s immigration status.

              You’ll also like this article. Important quote: “But the raises and new perks have not tempted native-born Americans to leave their day jobs for the fields. Nine in 10 agriculture workers in California are still foreign born, and more than half are undocumented, according to a federal survey.”

              Quote:
              That provides an alternative to hiring more expensive American labor.
              Literally all companies seek to cut down on employee expenses. This is another method they use to do that. The blame lies on the companies abusing a loophole, not the immigrants trying to survive.

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              If you live in a border state then you have to pay extra taxes for illegals using the hospitals and the children of illegals using the school system.
              I don’t live in a border state. Also, even if I did, I wouldn’t mind paying taxes for either of those things. I believe healthcare and education are a universal rights.

              Quote:
              If you are a driver anywhere really in the US you have to worry about getting into a car crash with an illegal alien as they tend to not have insurance thus you will have to pay for any damages.
              I have to worry about that regardless, as many native-born citizens also don’t have insurance despite the requirement. I don’t even drive.

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              In other words it’s kind of ignorant to say it is not hurting you.
              Not really. I have different values, morals, and perspectives. I don’t consider any of those things harmful.

              Quote:
              By favoring illegal immigration you are favoring those who can cross the border as opposed to those that cannot. People living in Libya or Syria cannot walk across the border into the US, they must wait for their application for asylum to be heard, the same goes for gays living in Russia, or Muslims living in China, or any number of people with actual asylum claims, put in people that are poor and just want to make more money and you can include practically the vast majority of the world. However they must wait for the asylum process, they must wait through the bloated bureaucracy as you called it. So why should those that live in central or South America get special dispensation? Why should they get the benefits of America while those who go through the system don’t? To put it simply why are you willing to allow some people to break the rules while everyone else must play by them?
              Where did I say I wouldn’t be okay with those people coming here before they have immigrant status? What i’m saying is that, if you are trying to immigrate from a country where you’re in danger, then I don’t care if you come here before you have immigrant status because it means you’ll be safe. Will people abuse that process were it to exist? Definitely, but as with all systems, there will be abuse. The good in this situation outweighs the bad, to me.
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              Old December 22nd, 2018 (2:03 PM).
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                The jobs that the majority of Mexican immigrants take are not jobs that I would ever apply for. And frankly, if an immigrant who has my same qualifications but works harder and is willing to accept less pay to get the job I want is hired for those reasons, then I’m not pressed. That’s an experience that can happen regardless of somone’s immigration status.

                You’ll also like this article. Important quote: “But the raises and new perks have not tempted native-born Americans to leave their day jobs for the fields. Nine in 10 agriculture workers in California are still foreign born, and more than half are undocumented, according to a federal survey.”
                I am sure they are jobs most of us would not apply for, then again how long will that lasts? You have people pushing for low wage jobs to have a 'livable wage' if say McDonalds were to continue to expand in illegal labor, because Americans want a 15 dollar minimum wage it would begin to push alot of people out of a job.

                Also as we saw with slavery, the abolition of a system will create incentive to create new technology and benefits so that the product can still be provided.

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                Literally all companies seek to cut down on employee expenses. This is another method they use to do that. The blame lies on the companies abusing a loophole, not the immigrants trying to survive.
                Some companies would engage in child labor or slavery if allowed, that does not mean we as a nation should allow it.

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                I don’t live in a border state. Also, even if I did, I wouldn’t mind paying taxes for either of those things. I believe healthcare and education are a universal rights.
                That is nice but it does not make it any easier for public hospitals where wait times spiral wildly out of control sometimes up to 9 hours, which risks people's lives. Or having classrooms overfilled with students, thus harming the children's ability to learn.

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                I have to worry about that regardless, as many native-born citizens also don’t have insurance despite the requirement. I don’t even drive.
                The goal should be to reduce the problem not worry about it because some native born citizens do it as well.

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                Not really. I have different values, morals, and perspectives. I don’t consider any of those things harmful.
                That does not mean those things do not negatively impact society.

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                Originally Posted by Trev View Post
                Where did I say I wouldn’t be okay with those people coming here before they have immigrant status? What i’m saying is that, if you are trying to immigrate from a country where you’re in danger, then I don’t care if you come here before you have immigrant status because it means you’ll be safe. Will people abuse that process were it to exist? Definitely, but as with all systems, there will be abuse. The good in this situation outweighs the bad, to me.
                I am getting the vibe from you that you are for open borders, which I hope you can understand the type of hell that would create in any country.
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                Old December 22nd, 2018 (2:40 PM).
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                I am sure they are jobs most of us would not apply for, then again how long will that lasts? You have people pushing for low wage jobs to have a 'livable wage' if say McDonalds were to continue to expand in illegal labor, because Americans want a 15 dollar minimum wage it would begin to push alot of people out of a job.
                If they choose to offer $15 an hour, then yes, competition would increase for those jobs. That’s how jobs with higher wages work. Those jobs aren’t reserved for anyone, and if you’re less qualified than an “illegal” immigrant then that’s not anyone’s fault but yours.

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                Also as we saw with slavery, the abolition of a system will create incentive to create new technology and benefits so that the product can still be provided.
                We call that progress.

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                Some companies would engage in child labor or slavery if allowed, that does not mean we as a nation should allow it.
                Uh, both of those were rooted in oppressing people and committing horrendous human rights violations. Companies hiring immgrants isn’t oppressing immigrants and isn’t creating human rights violations. Try a better analogy.

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                That is nice but it does not make it any easier for public hospitals where wait times spiral wildly out of control sometimes up to 9 hours, which risks people's lives. Or having classrooms overfilled with students, thus harming the children's ability to learn.
                So what is your alternative? To let immigrants die from medical conditions because they aren’t a citizen? Ship them to a hospital in their home country? I’m sure those solutions wouldn’t cause any problems.

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                The goal should be to reduce the problem not worry about it because some native born citizens do it as well.
                “I’m worried about getting hit by a driver with insurance. Therefore, we should deport immigrant drivers without insurance.”

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                That does not mean those things do not negatively impact society.
                There are literally billions of things that negatively impacts society. You know what else negatively impacts society? Destroying the lives of immigrants by returning them to violence and poverty.

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                I am getting the vibe from you that you are for open borders, which I hope you can understand the type of hell that would create in any country.
                Fix your vibe reader then. I am not for completely open borders. I just believe that our current laws on immigration put “illegal” immigrants in danger by forcing them to wait years in dangerous countries to come here legally when they would easily be able to apply for citizenship within the country they’re going to immigrate into.

                I’m getting the vibe from you that you would rather have people die because they can’t wait forever to get citizenship when they’re in the middle of dangerous situations, just because you worry about losing jobs that were never guaranteed to you and having healthcare shared with everyone. Doesn’t mean my vibe is right.
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                Old December 22nd, 2018 (3:04 PM).
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                  DACA. When this thread was first posted, the government shutdown it was about happened to have some relation to DACA and so was part of the conversation then.
                  Can the person I had asked about this answer me as to how allowing a two year deferment to deportation of two years for undocumented children and giving them work permits is considered "illegal"?
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                  Old December 22nd, 2018 (4:27 PM).
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                  So, here's a suggestion, how about instead of wasting money on a border wall that won't actually do jack muk, the government improves and streamlines the immigration process so there's less need for people to enter the country illegally to escape danger.

                  If the problem is with the illegality, not with people who happen to be born outside the US, then fix your broken immigration system so entering illegally stops being a necessity to get out of danger.
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                  Old December 22nd, 2018 (6:15 PM).
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                    Quote:
                    Originally Posted by Trev View Post
                    If they choose to offer $15 an hour, then yes, competition would increase for those jobs. That’s how jobs with higher wages work. Those jobs aren’t reserved for anyone, and if you’re less qualified than an “illegal” immigrant then that’s not anyone’s fault but yours.
                    Problem is an illegal immigrant will work for lower wages, poorer working conditions, and if they complain they can be replaced or threatened with deportation. Thus companies especially low wage companies are more willing to hire illegals.

                    Quote:
                    We call that progress.
                    And the only way to get to that progress would be to remove the illegal labor, just as we freed the slaves.


                    Quote:
                    Uh, both of those were rooted in oppressing people and committing horrendous human rights violations. Companies hiring immgrants isn’t oppressing immigrants and isn’t creating human rights violations. Try a better analogy.
                    Paying a person barely five dollars an hour and telling them if they complain they will be deported is in and of itself oppression as well.


                    Quote:
                    So what is your alternative? To let immigrants die from medical conditions because they aren’t a citizen? Ship them to a hospital in their home country? I’m sure those solutions wouldn’t cause any problems.
                    Solution is to stop illegal immigration and remove birth right citizenship, along with a policy of attrition by deportation.


                    Quote:
                    “I’m worried about getting hit by a driver with insurance. Therefore, we should deport immigrant drivers without insurance.”
                    I am worried about getting hit by a driver with out insurances, therefore we should deport the illegal immigrant population that does not have insurance or in many cases drivers license.

                    Quote:
                    There are literally billions of things that negatively impacts society. You know what else negatively impacts society? Destroying the lives of immigrants by returning them to violence and poverty.
                    Actually that would positively impact their society, you are having millions of young men and women who can contribute to their society with labor and skills leaving for America. Instead of those people building up there country with skills and work, they are leaving it to rot, continuing the cycle.


                    Quote:
                    Fix your vibe reader then. I am not for completely open borders. I just believe that our current laws on immigration put “illegal” immigrants in danger by forcing them to wait years in dangerous countries to come here legally when they would easily be able to apply for citizenship within the country they’re going to immigrate into.

                    I’m getting the vibe from you that you would rather have people die because they can’t wait forever to get citizenship when they’re in the middle of dangerous situations, just because you worry about losing jobs that were never guaranteed to you and having healthcare shared with everyone. Doesn’t mean my vibe is right.
                    Okay you are saying you do not have a problem with a person entering this country illegally be it for economic or security reasons, and staying. You say that deporting them is dangerous and hurts them, thus you want them to stay in the country. How again is that not open borders?
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                    Old December 22nd, 2018 (6:49 PM). Edited December 22nd, 2018 by Trev.
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                    Trev Trev is offline
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                    Quote:
                    Originally Posted by EnglishALT View Post
                    Problem is an illegal immigrant will work for lower wages, poorer working conditions, and if they complain they can be replaced or threatened with deportation. Thus companies especially low wage companies are more willing to hire illegals.
                    And you’re blaming the immigrants for that? Seems like the companies are to blame for not choosing to pay immigrants equally and abusing them.

                    Quote:
                    And the only way to get to that progress would be to remove the illegal labor, just as we freed the slaves.
                    Freeing the slaves was good for anyone who was a slave. Deporting immigrants isn’t good for anyone who’s an immigrant.

                    Quote:
                    Paying a person barely five dollars an hour and telling them if they complain they will be deported is in and of itself oppression as well.
                    And deporting them only makes that oppression worse.

                    Quote:
                    Solution is to stop illegal immigration and remove birth right citizenship, along with a policy of attrition by deportation.
                    Yeah, I’m sure that’ll heal them right up. Please, run that by some hospitals. I’d love to see how that goes. “Here’s an idea: the next time a person comes into the emergency room pouring blood out of their stomach, check their documents and call ICE to have them deported if they aren’t a citizen.”

                    In case the sarcasm wasn’t clear, doctor’s take an oath not to deny anyone healthcare. I can see why you wouldn’t care if you don’t think everyone should have access to healthcare, but doctors don’t follow that creed, thankfully.

                    Quote:
                    I am worried about getting hit by a driver with out insurances, therefore we should deport the illegal immigrant population that does not have insurance or in many cases drivers license.
                    So, again, you would willingly ruin someone’s life by sending them back to a country where they could face violence or poverty and possibly die from that, simply on the CHANCE that they MIGHT hit you and MIGHT not have insurance.

                    Quote:
                    Actually that would positively impact their society, you are having millions of young men and women who can contribute to their society with labor and skills leaving for America. Instead of those people building up there country with skills and work, they are leaving it to rot, continuing the cycle.
                    And you blame them for that, instead of the country’s government that isn’t addressing the many serious issues going on there? You must not understand the extent of corruption and gang/terrorist violence in countries with high emigration rates.

                    Quote:
                    Okay you are saying you do not have a problem with a person entering this country illegally be it for economic or security reasons, and staying. You say that deporting them is dangerous and hurts them, thus you want them to stay in the country. How again is that not open borders?
                    Because they still become citizens. They would still need to become citizens and go through the immigrant application process. However, they would be able to live their lives and also be safe while doing so, instead of fighting to survive in a dangerous country while they wait possibly years for immigrant status approval. Like, this is literally what DACA does for its applicants. Meanwhile, immigrants not in those situations can take the time to do so in their home country. What you’re suggesting is that we force all immigrants to suffer and possibly die in a dangerous country just so they can “legally” immigrate, and all it does is put more innocent people in danger.
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                    Old December 22nd, 2018 (7:00 PM). Edited December 22nd, 2018 by EnglishALT.
                    EnglishALT EnglishALT is online now
                       
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                      Quote:
                      Originally Posted by Trev View Post
                      And you’re blaming the immigrants for that? Seems like the companies are to blame for not choosing to pay immigrants equally.
                      Their status as illegal allows them to be exploited in such a manner, seeing how they came here illegally, I blame them for that.

                      Quote:
                      Freeing the slaves was good for anyone who was a slave. Deporting immigrants isn’t good for anyone who’s an immigrant.
                      As long as you do not count the citizenship of that country, for reasons I already explained.

                      Quote:
                      And deporting them only makes that oppression worse.
                      How so? The job and companies do not follow them back home.

                      Quote:
                      Yeah, I’m sure that’ll heal them right up. Please, run that by some hospitals. I’d love to see how that goes. “Here’s an idea: the next time a person comes into the emergency room pouring blood out of their stomach, check their documents and call ICE to have them deported if they aren’t a citizen.”

                      In case the sarcasm wasn’t clear, doctor’s take an oath not to deny anyone healthcare. I can see why you wouldn’t care if you don’t think everyone should have access to healthcare, but doctors don’t follow that creed, thankfully.
                      I am more than willing for them to get care, but I want them to be deported before they get sick, hurt, or pregnant, thus causing the resource drain.


                      Quote:
                      So, again, you would willingly ruin someone’s life by sending them back to a country where they could face violence or poverty and possibly die from that, simply on the CHANCE that they MIGHT hit you and MIGHT not have insurance.
                      I want them to come in legally in which they can buy insurance and get a drivers license, by law they are not supposed to even be there or driving.

                      Quote:
                      And you blame them for that, instead of the country’s government that isn’t addressing the many serious issues going on there? You must not understand the extent of corruption and gang/terrorist violence in countries with high emigration rates.
                      I am fully aware of the corruption and danger, however answer me this how is a country supposed to get better when their best and brightest continue to flee the country?


                      Quote:
                      Because they still become citizens. They would still need to become citizens and go through the immigrant application process. However, they would be able to live their lives and also be safe while doing so, instead of fighting to survive in a dangerous country while they wait possibly years for immigrant status approval. Like, this is literally what DACA does for its applicants. Meanwhile, immigrants not in those situations can take the time to do so in their home country. What you’re suggesting is that we force all immigrants to suffer and possibly die in a dangerous country just so they can “legally” immigrate, and all it does is put more innocent people in danger.
                      Yes I want a fair system that allows each person all over the world to have an equal chance to get in. I do not want to pick favorites based on location or skin color. I also want a limited number each year allowed in as to not overwhelm the country.

                      Again it sounds like you want open borders in that anyone that comes here can stay, with there being no limit, or ability to deport. That would cripple the country and turn it into just another third world muk hole.
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                      Old December 22nd, 2018 (7:30 PM).
                      LDSman LDSman is offline
                         
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                        Quote:
                        Originally Posted by TheGhostHunter View Post
                        Can the person I had asked about this answer me as to how allowing a two year deferment to deportation of two years for undocumented children and giving them work permits is considered "illegal"?
                        Continue reading the posts on page one. Multiple links were provided as to why DACA should be considered illegal.
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                        Old December 22nd, 2018 (7:47 PM).
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                        TheGhostHunter TheGhostHunter is offline
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                          Quote:
                          Originally Posted by LDSman View Post
                          Continue reading the posts on page one. Multiple links were provided as to why DACA should be considered illegal.
                          I don't understand the reasoning behind the illegality of DACA. It's not like we're letting them leech off of government programs since there is enough time to apply for a work permit. Giving people who had no choice but to illegally enter the US with their parents due to their status as a minor at the time an allotted amount of time to apply for a job seems reasonable.

                          Here is a link to read more on DACA in case anybody wants to learn more about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deferred_Action_for_Childhood_Arrivals
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                            #49   Link to this post, but load the entire thread.  
                          Old December 22nd, 2018 (7:53 PM). Edited December 22nd, 2018 by EnglishALT.
                          EnglishALT EnglishALT is online now
                             
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                            Quote:
                            Originally Posted by TheGhostHunter View Post
                            I don't understand the reasoning behind the illegality of DACA. It's not like we're letting them leech off of government programs since there is enough time to apply for a work permit. Giving people who had no choice but to illegally enter the US with their parents due to their status as a minor at the time an allotted amount of time to apply for a job seems reasonable.

                            Here is a link to read more on DACA in case anybody wants to learn more about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deferred_Action_for_Childhood_Arrivals
                            As Obama repeatedly said the President cannot pick and choose which laws he or she wishes to follow. The President is allowed a bit of leeway, but DACA basically gives a form of protection from immigration law to a wide swath of people through executive order and not congress. That is possibily if not probably illegal and unconstitutional however in the end it will be up to the Supreme Court to decide.
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                            Old December 22nd, 2018 (7:59 PM).
                            LDSman LDSman is offline
                               
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                              Quote:
                              Originally Posted by TheGhostHunter View Post
                              I don't understand the reasoning behind the illegality of DACA. It's not like we're letting them leech off of government programs since there is enough time to apply for a work permit. Giving people who had no choice but to illegally enter the US with their parents due to their status as a minor at the time an allotted amount of time to apply for a job seems reasonable.

                              Here is a link to read more on DACA in case anybody wants to learn more about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deferred_Action_for_Childhood_Arrivals
                              That’s the nice version of events. Here’s the stuff they don’t talk about.

                              https://www.heritage.org/immigration/commentary/daca-not-what-the-democrats-say-it-here-are-the-facts
                              Very little vetting, criminal behavior ignored, waivers given for violations, etc.
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