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Old November 18th, 2018 (11:27 PM).
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BronzeHeart92 BronzeHeart92 is offline
     
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Nah View Post
    I would also rather that we not call people deluded because they have a differing opinion or imply that the only reason someone believes something is because of some sort of psychological issue, regardless of who's right and wrong. I'm really not bent out of shape over this, I just think that the thread has been going fairly well for the most part and just would like to keep it that way, and so would like to nip in the bud anything that might happen to send it in an unwanted direction.
    True, but that's just the impression I've got. Again, the issue is still that you can easily buy guns just like you would any other item. We after all don't need guns to be safe, why would they? That aside, it's true US Constitution and it's Amendments are important, that's a fact. But ask yourself this, how can you update it for the 21st Century?
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    Old November 19th, 2018 (12:42 AM). Edited November 19th, 2018 by EnglishALT.
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      Quote:
      Originally Posted by BronzeHeart92 View Post
      True, but that's just the impression I've got. Again, the issue is still that you can easily buy guns just like you would any other item. We after all don't need guns to be safe, why would they? That aside, it's true US Constitution and it's Amendments are important, that's a fact. But ask yourself this, how can you update it for the 21st Century?
      May I ask, lets say that there is enough of a push to repeal the second amendment, please answer these questions then.

      How would you deal with all the guns? Buy back program?

      How would you deal with those that refuse to give them up? Use force?

      How would you deal with the influx of illegal weaponry that would flood the black market from Mexico?

      How would you deal with the use of 3D printing, allowing practically any one to make a gun?
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      Old November 19th, 2018 (8:46 AM).
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      Satire Satire is offline
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        Originally Posted by TailsMK4 View Post
        A good point was brought up in this thread...we mainly hear about guns being used, but I think we can also fit the ideas of other weapons like knives being used to assault people; guns are just easier and quicker to use to accomplish the same thing. We could also fit deaths as a result of DWIs into this as well, as you should not have got drunk in the first place. May as well throw in any deaths as a result of being high or wanting to get high from drugs.

        What needs to be done is having higher sentences as punishments for crimes. It used to be in the past that if you killed someone that the death penalty was likely what happened to you, and I thought that was a suitable system (for those arguing that innocent people could be killed off instead, that's why you stay in prison for a while before the sentence is carried out, just in case there is a mistake). I think it's too often now that people just get slaps on the wrists. It's also too often now that I think people try to claim having a mental illness as the reason for why they should not be punished for the crime. If you don't want to be arrested, then don't do anything that could get you in trouble.

        I think the bigger issue is people having these thoughts of doing bad things to others in the first place, and no amount of politics will ever resolve this issue, as these kinds of thoughts have been around since the creation of the world. Since the times of Adam and Eve, but if you follow other ideals, that may not apply to you. Racism, people being wanted by others for actions done in the past, or people that decide to follow radical Islam or other terrorist ideals will always be a thing. So while these ideals exist, I think this debate will never be fully resolved. The only thing I could suggest for people that know someone that might be thinking of any of the mentioned thoughts is to try to stop that person from carrying it out, first through trying to calm them down. A larger police presence is really the only other thing that comes to mind regarding solutions to the problem, but that won't be enough.
        I agree with this 100%.

        Major crime punishments have always been ridiculously understated. Although, I feel like if someone decides to kill an innocent person, knowing the consequences and all of that, then they probably won’t care if they receive a death sentence; in fact, they’d probably be expecting it. So basically, once a person consciously crosses that line and makes that decision, the gun isn’t even a factor at this point. It’s all the person choosing to shoot up a gathering of people.

        People saying ‘it’s the guns fault’ make me wonder: if someone shoots another person, is it the gun that physically forced its wielder to pull the trigger with the concious intention to kill a human? Did the gun take over the shooters mind or something? If that’s the case, then we may as well ban knives, cars, shovels, and essentially every other item that can be used to cause damage.
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        Old November 19th, 2018 (3:11 PM).
        LDSman LDSman is offline
           
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          I think this is worth a read for the people that think gun owners will lose to the US govt.

          http://monsterhunternation.com/2018/11/19/the-2nd-amendment-is-obsolete-says-congressman-who-wants-to-nuke-omaha/
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          Old November 19th, 2018 (8:33 PM).
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          Originally Posted by EnglishALT View Post
          It may be unpopular to say but there is some need for the poorer neighborhoods to take responsibility for the violence plaguing their area. Establishing youth centers, daycare centers, neighborhood watches are necessary to keep children out of gangs and to avoid gang activity. Keep from having children at a young age or outside of marriage so that a child can grow up in a stable two parent house hold. Stop demonizing the police and start working with them, change the culture of snitching being a bad thing and into something to help the neighborhood. Become proactive with the police in rooting out the drug houses and gang members to cut the cancer out of the community.

          Banning guns or placing more restrictions on guns isn’t going to stop murders in poor neighborhoods. You can look at the ghettos of France to see that is true, besides most of the firearms in these neighborhoods are already bought illegally. A proactive culture change with people working toward creating a better neighborhood, by force if necessary, is the only thing that will change the community.

          Now as for schools, the truth is that they are soft targets. A psycho knows they can go in and massacre dozens of people before the cops even get close to the school. A upgrade in security is necessary, having two rows of electronically locked doors that everyone must be buzzed through after the first bell rings, having metal detectors at the enterances, and most importantly of all having a locked firearm in the building either in the class room or in the teachers office.
          Your first point is pretty good in that there should absolutely be places kids can go to do activities and to learn more life skills, even in this country I find there aren't any classes in regular schools that teach anything like parenting, budgeting etc
          As for the marriage thing, I think as long as both parents are involved and responsible it shouldn't really be restricted to marriage.

          And tbh there should be places for adults who wanna get back on track too.

          I'm saying that saying something like "stay out of poor neighborhoods if you don't wanna get shot" isn't a solution, there will be less gun violence if they're harder to get, and it'll be safer for those who have nowhere else to go.
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          Old November 19th, 2018 (8:41 PM).
          EnglishALT EnglishALT is offline
             
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            Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
            Your first point is pretty good in that there should absolutely be places kids can go to do activities and to learn more life skills, even in this country I find there aren't any classes in regular schools that teach anything like parenting, budgeting etc
            As for the marriage thing, I think as long as both parents are involved and responsible it shouldn't really be restricted to marriage.

            And tbh there should be places for adults who wanna get back on track too.

            I'm saying that saying something like "stay out of poor neighborhoods if you don't wanna get shot" isn't a solution, there will be less gun violence if they're harder to get, and it'll be safer for those who have nowhere else to go.
            I think making them harder to get would drastically reduce accidental shootings, and suicide via gun. However most gang weapons are purchased illegally. Which makes me question if restricting guns will do anything to make these neighborhoods safer. If anything it may make the non gang members easier targets for attack and burglary.

            http://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/gun-sales-how-dangerous-people-get-weapons/
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            Old November 21st, 2018 (4:14 AM).
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            Honestly, I think there is value in doing things to deal with why people turn to violent crime. A lot of crime stems from poverty, high-stress and/or instability. I still want gun control improved (including better enforcing of existing gun control measures and making gun laws uniform across all states) but I don't think we should just ignore what causes crimes (and a great many suicides too) once gun control is improved.

            I'm still firmly in the party of more gun control, but I agree that a lot of people on my side of the isle tend to want to ignore route causes as well.
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            Old November 21st, 2018 (6:51 AM). Edited November 21st, 2018 by ShinyUmbreon189.
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            ShinyUmbreon189 ShinyUmbreon189 is offline
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              Bronze.. I could be wrong, but I think you've yet to answer the question everyone is asking... Why should America have to follow the same rules and regulations as yours or other countries?
              You familiar with Americas Constitutional Rights or do I need to go over them with you?
              You familiar with Americas history and why the Constitution was created in the first place?
              If you know history at all.. You'd know quite a few leaders that disarmed the population committed genocide...

              As people said, America isn't as dangerous as the media makes it out to be.. It's actually a decent place with much more opportunities than most.. Yeah, muks corrupt and violence happens but that's everywhere. Just stay out of the ghetto and sketch neighborhoods.. Tourist areas never have anything happen. America has a lot of psyducking people dude and so many different cultures. It's the people, not the country. There's muk of all color and shapes..
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              Old November 21st, 2018 (7:19 AM).
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              Quote:
              Originally Posted by ShinyUmbreon189 View Post
              If you know history at all.. You'd know quite a few leaders that disarmed the population committed genocide...
              This is a strawman and you know it. So have plenty of people who didn't disarm anyone.
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              Old November 21st, 2018 (9:14 AM). Edited November 21st, 2018 by ShinyUmbreon189.
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              ShinyUmbreon189 ShinyUmbreon189 is offline
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                Quote:
                Originally Posted by gimmepie View Post
                This is a strawman and you know it. So have plenty of people who didn't disarm anyone.
                Here you go again with having to make your opinion known and right as always, when I already stated literally what you just said... What's funny is you put words in my mouth to make you more right over me... What you didn't grasp, is the concept I said showing your ignorance.. I said "quite a few"... That doesn't mean all of them did so.. That means a number of them did while a number of them didn't. I simply stated history has shown tyranny and genocide after gun control.. Stop trying to make yourself look more intellectual than you actually are.. Cause you're failing miserably. Besides, this a GUN CONTROL discussion... Stop trying to switch lanes cause I'm fully aware of leaders that committed genocide with or without gun control. I don't need you to tell me this. I knew this long before you did.
                I became self aware at an early age. I bet you're still not self aware. I don't need news, media, and television to know what's going on.. I suggest opening that indigo, but don't lose your way.. You'd be surprised the wisdom and knowledge one can achieve through awakening their spirit alone. I don't even need internet for information.. Why should I care about what goes on in other countries? Or why should I care about pointless ideologies that don't benefit the world?


                If America came to a downfall for whatever reason... I'm already prepared and got family with land way off the radar. We know how to survive and know how to shoot guns, and know archery, hunting, etc.. Besides, why shouldn't humans be able to hunt for their source of food anyways?
                I find it strange people are okay with corporations killing animals but when humans "hunt" it's a bad thing.. I don't understand why that's to be..
                People seem to be okay with the fact gang bangers kill eachother and innocents for profit but when a mass murderer kills people it's all of a sudden the "guns fault" when it's simply a human problem.
                We're violent by nature.. Always going to be in war with ourselves and we're always gonna have those who seek power through greed. Evil exists and there's most likely some in power who would commit genocide if given the chance.. Evil is inevitable..

                Now look at how advanced technology has become... In 10 years, how much further you guys think it'll progress? A gun can easily be made now and look like the real deal.. Of course not everyones gonna have the required skills to do so, but it would give power to those that do and are willing to pay for it.. Wouldn't it also be much more cheaper than a REAL gun?
                People ignore the history of gun control and ignore the culture of America..
                Guns will never be banned in America.. At least not legally.
                I mean.. What reason to control guns in America when it's a Constitutional Right? Let's just make it so people don't have freedom of religion too.. Let's just throw the Constitution away and watch America go to muk.
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                Old November 21st, 2018 (10:24 AM). Edited November 21st, 2018 by gimmepie.
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                Originally Posted by ShinyUmbreon189 View Post
                Here you go again with having to make your opinion known and right as always, when I already stated literally what you just said... What's funny is you put words in my mouth to make you more right over me... What you didn't grasp, is the concept I said showing your ignorance.. I said "quite a few"... That doesn't mean all of them did so.. That means a number of them did while a number of them didn't. I simply stated history has shown tyranny and genocide after gun control.. Stop trying to make yourself look more intellectual than you actually are.. Cause you're failing miserably. Besides, this a GUN CONTROL discussion... Stop trying to switch lanes cause I'm fully aware of leaders that committed genocide with or without gun control. I don't need you to tell me this. I knew this long before you did.
                I became self aware at an early age. I bet you're still not self aware. I don't need news, media, and television to know what's going on.. I suggest opening that indigo, but don't lose your way.. You'd be surprised the wisdom and knowledge one can achieve through awakening their spirit alone. I don't even need internet for information.. Why should I care about what goes on in other countries? Or why should I care about pointless ideologies that don't benefit the world?
                If America came to a downfall for whatever reason... I'm already prepared and got family with land way off the radar. We know how to survive.. We're warriors.
                Quote:
                A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent.
                1. It's a straw man because you presented yourself in a way as if to suggest that the less armed populace was a major factor when the evidence suggests it clearly isn't. You were trying to give your position legitimacy based on a point that doesn't exist.

                2. Disagreeing with you and pointing out your flaws doesn't make me ignorant. In fact, your repeated insistence that me disagreeing with you makes me ignorant is another strawman since you're building yet another point in your argument out of a fallacy.

                3. I'm not putting words in your mouth. Do you know what that phrase means? Remember that debate where you kept saying I was suggesting there's no corruption in America despite that having nothing to do with my point (and being outright false?) That's putting words into someone's mouth. Pointing out you intentionally not acknowledging something because it hurts your poor argument isn't the same thing. It's not even in the same ballpark.

                4. "Yourself and only yourself" is a god awful source of information because your own perspective is the single most biased source of information you can possibly rely on. You're totally ignoring anything that suggests you could be wrong or that you don't have the full picture and are living in a fully intentional state of total ignorance that you preach as enlightenment. You have no idea what you're talking about and you like it that way. You just sit there and make up things and decide things for yourself, evidence be damned.

                5. You should care about what happens in other countries because we live in a modern era where everything is connected and a significant event in another nature can have a surprising impact on your own. Every time the US screws up their economy or US banks hurt the stock market, as an example, almost every nation on the planet suffers.

                You should also care because you can learn from what other countries are doing better. Like education, medicine, science, religious and political freedom, crime rates, personal freedom etc etc. Every one of those things?

                6. All human beings are self-aware. You're not special. Hell, several far less intelligent species are self-aware.

                7. "Spiritual awakening" is not a source. There's exactly no evidence that a spirit, human or otherwise, exists. I won't rule it out because there's no evidence it doesn't either but I'm pretty sure that you're not so much awakened as you are uneducated, ignorant and kidding yourself.

                8. You should care about idealogies because there's a lot that do help the world and because there's a lot, like yours, that hurt it.

                9. I was participating in a gun control debate? How is pointing out a huge strawman in your pro-gun argument switching lanes? Every time I poke a hole in one of your arguments you resort to ad hominem, false accusations and outright lies. It's not helping you.

                10. America isn't special. You are not special. your family are not special. None of you are mythical warriors and if for some reason your country fell apart and turned into a warzone the chances are that one or all of you would die. This has nothing to do with gun control and I don't know why you brought it up but like with just about everything else you said you apparently need a wake-up call about that too. But I'm the one switching lanes.

                Now if you'd like to address the actual flaw in your argument instead of going off on a crazed tangent again so I don't have to waste my time and the time of anyone reading this to pull yet another one apart, I'll rephrase it as a question.

                If you know full well that there's no correlation between gun control and genocide, why bring it up? What relevance does it have to this debate because it clearly doesn't support your argument. Maybe try actually answering the question instead of going on a rant that amounts to nothing more than a personal attack containing no information and bragging about how enlightened and awakened you think you are.
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                Old November 21st, 2018 (10:39 AM).
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                gimmepie gimmepie is offline
                 
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                Also since you added more after I replied, a quick addendum.

                Quote:
                People ignore the history of gun control and ignore the culture of America..
                No they don't.

                Quote:
                Guns will never be banned in America.. At least not legally.
                Almost nobody is arguing for a total gun ban.

                Quote:
                I mean.. What reason to control guns in America when it's a Constitutional Right? Let's just make it so people don't have freedom of religion too.. Let's just throw the Constitution away and watch America go to muk.
                1. False equivalencies
                2. You keep telling us America has already gone to muk. Which is it?
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                Old November 24th, 2018 (9:05 AM).
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                Originally Posted by gimmepie View Post
                Honestly, I think there is value in doing things to deal with why people turn to violent crime.

                This. This right here is it, chief.
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                Old November 24th, 2018 (9:46 AM).
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                This. This right here is it, chief.
                That doesn't mean that we should forgo improving gun control though, to clarify further. I just think to really have the best possible impact we need to do both. Especially because tackling the issues that can most easily cause people to turn to crime will improve a lot of other things too.
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                Old February 12th, 2019 (3:45 PM).
                LDSman LDSman is offline
                   
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                  Let’s discuss various gun control bills.

                  Red flag laws. - should be unconstitutional. Someone accuses you and then you have to prove your innocence later. Every single person should have a problem with that.

                  Oregon has proposed a 5 round magazine limit and a 20 round purchase per month.
                  1st - 5 rounds is far below the average handgun magazine.
                  2nd - 20 rounds a month? People who practice go through 100s per range trip. Rules like these are aimed at making it harder to be proficient at shooting.
                  3rd - how would this be enforced?

                  The bump stock ban. Bump stocks are stupid. What’s even stupider is allowing someone to simply rewrite a rule to ban something. That has horrible implications.
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                  Old February 12th, 2019 (5:34 PM).
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                  Maedar Maedar is offline
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                  LDS Man, I assume you know that vigilantism is a serious crime, right?
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                  Old February 12th, 2019 (5:49 PM). Edited 4 Weeks Ago by LDSman.
                  LDSman LDSman is offline
                     
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                    Originally Posted by Maedar View Post
                    LDS Man, I assume you know that vigilantism is a serious crime, right?
                    That has absolutely nothing to do with anything I said.

                    Edit: One state has a bill that would require you to submit to a review of social media. A violation of the 1st to violate the 2nd.

                    Illinois has a proposal to require serial numbers on all bullets made by anyone. Incredibly stupid idea. The number would be sky high within days.

                    Edit: this was interesting. If you want to really impact gun deaths, focus on white male suicides.

                    https://medium.com/handwaving-freakoutery/the-left-is-making-the-wrong-case-on-gun-deaths-heres-a-better-case-1429e7ad2f25
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                    Old 3 Weeks Ago (10:01 PM). Edited 3 Weeks Ago by BronzeHeart92.
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                      You still want to debate about this? Well, I guess you might as well. And of course, repealing the 2nd is a pertinent issue that ain't gonna fade anytime soon.
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                      Old 3 Weeks Ago (11:17 PM).
                      EnglishALT EnglishALT is offline
                         
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                        Originally Posted by BronzeHeart92 View Post
                        You still want to debate about this? Well, I guess you might as well. And of course, repealing the 2nd is a pertinent issue that ain't gonna fade anytime soon.
                        Here is what is needed to repeal the second amendment.

                        A two-thirds (super majority) vote of members present—if a quorum exists—in both the Senate and the House of Representatives of the United States Congress; or

                        A majority vote of states at a national convention called by Congress called at the request of the legislatures of at least two-thirds (at present 34) of the states. (This method has never been used.)

                        Neither of which would ever be reached to repeal the second amendment, and even if it were, there is still a great likely hood it would spark a coup or a civil war, which the gun owners would more than likely win.
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                        Old 3 Weeks Ago (6:39 AM).
                        LDSman LDSman is offline
                           
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                          Quote:
                          Originally Posted by BronzeHeart92 View Post
                          You still want to debate about this? Well, I guess you might as well. And of course, repealing the 2nd is a pertinent issue that ain't gonna fade anytime soon.
                          I figured since it was “gun control” discussing the bad laws being proposed would fit. Are you sticking to your “appeal to emotion” arguments?

                          There is exactly one study that claims that the US has more mass shootings than any other country. Lankford claims to have data from 171 countries going back to 1966. He won’t release the data. He won’t explain how he got information from before the internet. Won’t say what languages he used.

                          Lott did a shorter study and found 3 times as many mass shooting as lankford. Lott even used the same definition as lankford. Lott’s data is available for all to see.

                          https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailysignal.com/2019/02/20/the-us-has-the-most-mass-shootings-and-other-bogus-gun-research/amp/
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                          Old 3 Weeks Ago (8:46 AM).
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                          I think saying that the US has more mass shootings than any country, period, is an exaggeration. There's some very dangerous third world and developing countries. I think if you narrowed the list to solely first world nations you would have a stronger argument.
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                          Old 3 Weeks Ago (12:28 PM).
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                            Quote:
                            Originally Posted by EnglishALT View Post
                            Here is what is needed to repeal the second amendment.

                            A two-thirds (super majority) vote of members present—if a quorum exists—in both the Senate and the House of Representatives of the United States Congress; or

                            A majority vote of states at a national convention called by Congress called at the request of the legislatures of at least two-thirds (at present 34) of the states. (This method has never been used.)

                            Neither of which would ever be reached to repeal the second amendment, and even if it were, there is still a great likely hood it would spark a coup or a civil war, which the gun owners would more than likely win.
                            That's why it's important to raise the awareness of the issue still. Again, I'm aware that America might NOT be the kind of hellhole media would make it to be. Regardless, it's still puts me on the edge. Sorry USA but I'm certainly skipping you over Canada any day now.
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                            Old 3 Weeks Ago (1:17 PM).
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                            not to be rude or anything, but you do realize, it only feels like its a lot more shootings because of the news is now available to everyone and whatnot.
                            And if you are blaming, any of you, blaming violent video games on some or all of these shootings, please give me evidence, because from everything i heard or read, there is no evidence that supports this theory, in fact all research is the opposite. Forgive me if none of you have, i was very lazy to read this whole thread, but a lot of people blame violent video games so i went ahead and threw that in there.
                            I do agree, shootings is an issue, but im wondering what the government is doing to take care of this.
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                            Old 3 Weeks Ago (7:04 AM). Edited 3 Weeks Ago by Maedar.
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                            One incredible irony I see in this issue is that Alan Dershowitz - a known ally of Donald Trump - has supported the abolishing of the 2nd Amendment in the past, claiming it has "no place in modern society". However, he also opposes using the Courts to do so, claiming it would make the Constitution as a whole more mutable. He has said, "Foolish liberals who are trying to read the Second Amendment out of the Constitution by claiming it's not an individual right or that it's too much of a public safety hazard don't see the danger in the big picture. They're courting disaster by encouraging others to use the same means to eliminate portions of the Constitution they don't like."

                            Of course, Dershowitz has also argued that torture of terrorism suspects should be permitted with a judge's approval and that cruelty to animals should be excused if done in a way that humanity benefits, so IMOHO, his stance on anything is questionable.
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                            Old 3 Weeks Ago (7:25 AM).
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                              Quote:
                              Originally Posted by Maedar View Post
                              One incredible irony I see in this issue is that Alan Dershowitz - a known ally of Donald Trump - has supported the abolishing of the 2nd Amendment in the past, claiming it has "no place in modern society". However, he also opposes using the Courts to do so, claiming it would make the Constitution as a whole more mutable. He has said, "Foolish liberals who are trying to read the Second Amendment out of the Constitution by claiming it's not an individual right or that it's too much of a public safety hazard don't see the danger in the big picture. They're courting disaster by encouraging others to use the same means to eliminate portions of the Constitution they don't like."

                              Of course, Dershowitz has also argued that torture of terrorism suspects should be permitted with a judge's approval and that cruelty to animals should be excused if done in a way that humanity benefits, so IMOHO, his stance on anything is questionable.
                              He is right, using the court system to erase a constitutional amendment would be disastrous, and would put all of the bill of rights under the whim of the judiciary. Luckily the Supreme Court has so far done a lot to empower the second amendment and actually expand it's powers.
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