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Old January 26th, 2019 (1:07 PM).
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So for those of you who don't know, in American schools there is a satanic ritual engaged in where everyone swears their allegiance to the United States of America. This is done every morning of every school day across the country, in all grades (K-12).

What do you think?
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Old January 26th, 2019 (1:33 PM).
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i mean it does say you are dedicated to america, sort of at least. and in my county at the very least you are not required to actually say it, but you have to stand while its going on.

Why did you call it satanic?
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Old January 26th, 2019 (1:52 PM).
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It's this sort of early brain washing that has contributed to the toxic levels of nationalism prevalent in the US.
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Old January 26th, 2019 (2:02 PM).
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Why did you call it satanic?
as a joke mainly

But I do also think that it (the pledge) is the sort of thing that would occur in some sort of crazy, oppressive dictatorship. The country has kids so young that they probably don't even know what half the words even mean swear fealty to it as if it is obviously something worth worshiping when that shouldn't be. They should make that decision much later instead of when they can hardly find their way out of a paper bag. It's just smacks of indoctrination really.
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Old January 26th, 2019 (3:16 PM).
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i been doing it for years, and i dont even know all the word
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Old January 26th, 2019 (3:21 PM). Edited January 26th, 2019 by Alexander Nicholi.
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it's funny to hear folks recognise this as brainwashing, oppressive, whathaveyou, because it's true - but if you think that's the extent of it or that it has some nationalist slant, I've got some very bad news for you hahaha

it's not like it's up to us anyway, but if i became dictator of the world for life somehow i would leave it in place. children need to be formed and shaped into coherency somehow, lest you lose your society in chaos

it's no different from the daycares in alexandria with all the kids uniformed with red and blue shirts in the big pursuit of woke intersectionality, saw that muk myself in dc and had a laugh that broke the ice with our lyft driver even, it's insane

it's a prescription of social orthodoxy, this is true regardless of your flavour. imho a pledge of allegiance is really benign compared to some of the muk schools pummel as fact to the little brains who cant argue on a level high enough to defend themselves - anyone remember every child getting a trophy? me and the asian girl i was friends with got tall trophies for some psyducking reason, and i, a 9-year-old, asked why they were doing this, for which they had no explanation i could accept. i know how it made everybody feel though, don't even need to empathise to say it demeaned my work ethic and made me feel cheated for my obvious excellence. but when i do extend empathy i find that the poor performers know they didn't do well and it causes them to feel worse for receiving that, it spites their failure in a way and demotivates them to try harder. everybody loses with that muk
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Old January 26th, 2019 (3:31 PM). Edited January 26th, 2019 by tokyodrift.
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For me when I was in grade school we all said it. In middle school I would say it here and there. When I hit high school, I never stood and never recited it again. To this day I don't believe in the words that are stated in it. Most kids just say it because they were taught to and it was engraved in them. Do I think it should be required? Absolutely not. It's borderline brainwashing for humans who barely have any type of critical thinking skills.
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Old January 26th, 2019 (4:50 PM).
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My own anecdote on the topic is this: When I was in the States a few years back, Knott's Berry Farm, a theme park, did not open its doors until the national anthem was played. During this event, I gathered that such a thing was almost innocuous to the Americans around me - which as a Kiwi, it was pretty weird on its own. It had already been a very weird month as the USA is a land of horror and fantasy that I will never truly grasp. But what really sticks out to me is one particular kid, maybe no more than two or so years old, being forced into the hands on heart position by his mother despite clearly having no idea what was going on, and the mother getting a little mukty when the kid didn't want to do so. The German tourists that I was hanging out with were equally bemused by all this. Once it ended, I couldn't help but be a nosy tourist and just ask the mother if these sorts of openings were common, or something to that effect. She said 'Nah, but they should be. This is America!" and went on her way. This was 2012 so it wasn't all that long ago on a cultural level - I thought it was weird then, and I think it's weird now.

But the relevance of that story is that despite it being weird to me, it was entirely optional and a decision on part of a business to connect with the nationalist spirit, because nothing connects with American consumers wanting to experience a family day than blaring that tuneless piece of white noise. It's weird, but it can be argued to be part of America's notoriously strong sense of patriotism. That's me having good faith. I'd call America a nationalist hellhole, personally. Where it goes beyond a weird conditioning of patriotism and into the nationalist brainwashing category people here have mentioned is the Pledge of Allegiance - it and in itself is something I find rather abhorrent, this idea of pledging allegiance to ideals that have constantly been betrayed, ideals used to justify the oppression and denial across the spectrum of most within American society, let alone America's policies across the world. Let alone the concept of fealty to both a physical flag (as is seen in laughable news stories where students stand in pouring rain to make sure a broken flag doesn't touch the ground) and undying nationalism to the country said flag represents. But to enforce it within the education system from the moment kids can walk and talk? It is vile - to treat kids like little more than puppets for ideology is just... psyducked up. It is unquestionably creepy. It breeds social fear and it is an eradication of what it means to truly accept a country - to acknowledge its faults as well as what makes it great in the eyes of many. While I know students have the option to reject saying the pledge, the implied social ostracisation from rejecting this forced nationalist action is something I find equally abhorrent as everything else I have mentioned.

It's all just so wrong.
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Old January 27th, 2019 (10:02 AM).
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I really think you guys exaggerate what we have to do. There really isn't so much thought behind it, at least not anymore. I know for a fact when I was going through school that the pledge of allegiance was just a 1 minute zone out session. It really isn't as serious as you guys make it seem. Brainwashing? I never met a kid my entire time in elementary school that actually knew about what was being said during the pledge. Once you get to an age where you DO understand what's being said, no one cares. No one thinks about the words as "swearing fealty", they just think of it as saying the pledge. It really just isn't that serious. No one cares if you want to be the special individual who sits down during the pledge either.
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Old January 27th, 2019 (6:21 PM).
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I really think you guys exaggerate what we have to do. There really isn't so much thought behind it, at least not anymore. I know for a fact when I was going through school that the pledge of allegiance was just a 1 minute zone out session. It really isn't as serious as you guys make it seem. Brainwashing? I never met a kid my entire time in elementary school that actually knew about what was being said during the pledge. Once you get to an age where you DO understand what's being said, no one cares. No one thinks about the words as "swearing fealty", they just think of it as saying the pledge. It really just isn't that serious. No one cares if you want to be the special individual who sits down during the pledge either.
It is literally pledging yourself to your country every morning for years and years. Even if you aren't aware of it happening, that is going to have a subconscious affect on you and that is entirely the point.
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Old January 27th, 2019 (7:07 PM).
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Do you have to say a pledge every morning in school in Australia? Do you know what it's like?
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Old January 27th, 2019 (7:08 PM).
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by gimmepie View Post
    It is literally pledging yourself to your country every morning for years and years. Even if you aren't aware of it happening, that is going to have a subconscious affect on you and that is entirely the point.
    If you're doing it "subconsciously" that means it has LESS influence on your thoughts and opinions not more.
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    Old January 27th, 2019 (8:05 PM).
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    Originally Posted by PokeFortniteDeathMetal02 View Post
    If you're doing it "subconsciously" that means it has LESS influence on your thoughts and opinions not more.
    That isn't true at all. The subconscious has an enormous influence on your day to day life. Every single random habit you have is the result of your subconscious being trained to do these things through repetition, every knee-jerk reaction you have to things that logically shouldn't bother you is because of your subconscious etc etc.

    Combine that with Pavlovian conditioning and you have literal brainwashing. You make kids repeat day after day that they're pledging themselves to your super awesome country then you're gradually conditioning them to criticise and ask questions less, to ignore valid concerns and to assume that your country is the centre of the universe.

    Here's a pretty simplified explanation.
    Also an explanation of Pavlovian conditioning for your convenience.
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    Old January 27th, 2019 (9:22 PM).
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      [QUOTE=gimmepie;9973083]That isn't true at all. The subconscious has an enormous influence on your day to day life. Every single random habit you have is the result of your subconscious being trained to do these things through repetition, every knee-jerk reaction you have to things that logically shouldn't bother you is because of your subconscious etc etc.

      Combine that with Pavlovian conditioning and you have literal brainwashing. You make kids repeat day after day that they're pledging themselves to your super awesome country then you're gradually conditioning them to criticise and ask questions less, to ignore valid concerns and to assume that your country is the centre of the universe.

      My man, it's really not that deep. First of all, that's some real snowflakin "everywun else is brainwashed but im tu smard :---DDDD"
      And on a similar note: how come it doesn't work on so many people then? Everyone who went to school did it, how come only so few really come out as total bootlickers? The US is probably one of the least identitarian nations in the first world. It's not like there's suddenly harm in there being one or 2 instances of us acknowledging that we live in america or even that we have a shade of loyalty to the nation's flag.

      Are Idiocracy movie quotes going to be your next argument?
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      Old January 27th, 2019 (10:24 PM).
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      Quote:
      Originally Posted by PokeFortniteDeathMetal02 View Post
      My man, it's really not that deep. First of all, that's some real snowflakin "everywun else is brainwashed but im tu smard :---DDDD"
      10/10 argument.
      I couldn't really say how I'd turn out under those conditions because I'm not American and haven't been subjected to the rampant nationalism you have over there.

      Quote:
      And on a similar note: how come it doesn't work on so many people then? Everyone who went to school did it, how come only so few really come out as total bootlickers?
      Because over time different people will have different experiences which will naturally cause their perspectives to shift? Of course not everyone is going to turn out some sort of nationalistic zombie, but that doesn't change the fact that the foundation is there nor does it change what the point of laying that foundation is.

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      The US is probably one of the least identitarian nations in the first world. It's not like there's suddenly harm in there being one or 2 instances of us acknowledging that we live in america or even that we have a shade of loyalty to the nation's flag.
      Um... no?
      Are we talking about the same America that practically exploded because some people dared to kneel during the anthem, that frequently affirms through it's politics and media that it is the "greatest country in the world", that has one of the hardest anti-immigrant stances of any first world countries, that forces students to pledge themselves to the nation every day, that elected a completely incompetent and inexperienced President based almost entirely on white nationalism and anti-immigrant fear mongering? I could go on but there's really no need. There is literally no substance to your entire post.

      Quote:
      Are Idiocracy movie quotes going to be your next argument?
      No but if I did it would still be a more solid argument than a single thing you have said, which is basically "nu-uh, cause I don't want it to be the case".

      Also, pro-tip: Don't be unnecessarily rude, launch ad hominem attacks or otherwise be a dick. Not only is it just flatly against DD/PC rules but it only emphasises how terrible your argument is.
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      Old January 28th, 2019 (4:57 AM).
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      Regardless of if it is or isn't brainwashing, I don't think that there's any particular benefit in continuing to have it be done and so should stop doing it. Same with playing the national anthem at every single major-league sports game.
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      Old January 28th, 2019 (7:51 AM).
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      Quote:
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      Regardless of if it is or isn't brainwashing, I don't think that there's any particular benefit in continuing to have it be done and so should stop doing it. Same with playing the national anthem at every single major-league sports game.
      I agree with the first half of this but not so much the second half.

      The argument on the pledge seems to be either "it's brainwashing" or "it does nothing cus the kids don't care for it". Both points of view support getting rid of it.

      The national anthem at sporting events is a different case though. People who watch sports (I don't have a statistic on this, but pretty much everyone from the US I know who does) generally like that it's played. It unites them and they enjoy it. Unless you can show it causes harm, that is a pretty good not to get rid of it.
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      Old January 31st, 2019 (7:55 AM).
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      I'll be honest, I don't really understand why the pledge or the national anthem are such big events. I've never cared about either since I have no fealty to a country that wouldn't even let me get married legally until 4 years ago and continues to discriminate against me and members of my community. The only people who ever care about it and find it necessary are people who I usually avoid for their other problematic behaviors.
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      Old January 31st, 2019 (1:40 PM). Edited January 31st, 2019 by Tsutarja.
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      While I can understand why many may find it disrespectful to not stand for the pledge, I do not think one should be forced to recite it. I have seen many old-fashioned teachers force their students to recite it, and they have called students not doing such disrespectful.

      In Florida, it used to be law that students were forced to recite the pledge. That was overturned by federal courts in 2008.

      Schools do not even teach the meaning of the words of the pledge of allegiance at all before or during the time kids learn to recite it; it's just a "repeat after me" sorta thing. I never knew what the word "indivisible" meant until I was either in middle or high school.

      I don't really think it's "brainwashing" either, but I would not force anybody to stand or recite it if they did not feel comfortable as such.
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      Old January 31st, 2019 (6:04 PM).
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      Its interesting how times have changed though, in how we do things. Kids use to be forced to stand and recite it to what we do today which is people stand and chose weither they wanna say it as its being said. (at least thats how it goes in my school) I honestly dont say it because im lazy and see no need to.
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      Old February 4th, 2019 (2:33 PM).
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      I don't think anyone should be forced to recite it because that defeats the purpose, and I don't think kids should have to say it when they don't even comprehend what it means. It seems more like something someone should take when they join the military or take a position in the government than a thing we should make kids recite.
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      Old February 4th, 2019 (4:08 PM).
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      Having just finished high school, I never took much issue. During my final couple of years, some other students would just sit through the entire thing. I don't remember hearing anybody recite it either, but we just stayed silent listening to the person on the speaker. Maybe it's more forced for other schools though.
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      Old February 4th, 2019 (5:20 PM).
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      Well teachers at my school at least force you to stand up during the pledge just to be respectful or whatever. While that might seem light, seems unneccary due to some/ a lot of people just dont want to do anything with it.
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      Old February 5th, 2019 (11:09 PM). Edited February 5th, 2019 by XIII.
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      I stopped saying the pledge by middle school, and even stopped standing sometimes during high school. It feels creepy, and reminds me of regimes. I don't feel comfortable doing it myself, mainly because I disagree with almost everything this country has going for it, but I won't stop anyone else from doing it if they please.

      edit: Of course now in college I don't have to do jack, and they don't make you stand, nor do they play it. Which is a really refreshing change, having the assumption of personal choices rather than ideas of toxic nationalism thrust upon us
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      Old February 8th, 2019 (6:37 PM).
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      I'm not sure if it's done any more but when I was in school (1995-2008) we stood for the national anthem.
      Though at my first high school we didn't, only after I switched we did it again (different school).

      Nowadays though I don't even remember the words to it.
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