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Old February 10th, 2019 (3:09 PM). Edited February 11th, 2019 by Maedar.
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As someone who is the son of two teachers who occasionally works as a substitute teacher, I'll add my $0.02

I stood for the pledge in elementary school every day. I recall not knowing at the time what the word "republic" meant, and thought it had something to do with a "four witches' stand". But I digress. I was never "brainwashed" by this oath, and it never drove me towards any sort of blind loyalty to anything or anyone.

I once subbed at a school that still used it, but they took out the "under God" part. I was rather irked by this, not because I've ever been overly-religious, but because I found it rather trite. I mean, nobody gets upset about the words "In God We Trust" on a dollar bill. (And yes, I do know someone once tried to oppose that too.)

IMOHO, this is the same as kneeling during the National Anthem (a song I've always had a serious problem with, btw, as it's lyrics seem far too warlike and violent for its intent). Much like I feel it should be a player's right to kneel in protest during the song (seriously, this is a free country and he's not hurting anyone) he should be allowed to kneel. And if a student or his parents object to standing and taking an oath that is not legally binding, he should be allowed to sit it out.

I also think that this sort of thing is making a mountain out of a molehill, and that our government should concern itself with important issues. I remember the whole flag-burning debacle. Did we miss the epidemic of flag-burning occurring every day in this country, that necessitated something as drastic as a Constitutional Amendment? Really? Our roads and bridges are crumbling and broken, school shootings are happening at an alarming rate, and we're seriously concerned with patriotic rituals and symbols. It makes very little sense in a country where a citizens' right to Free Speech is supposed to be protected.
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Old February 10th, 2019 (7:47 PM).
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Do they wish to make you loyal to the country out of fear you'd betray it one day?
It seems weird, how in the actual psyduck do you betray your country? Doesn't this only happen in video games?
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Old February 11th, 2019 (4:24 AM). Edited February 11th, 2019 by Maedar.
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Do they wish to make you loyal to the country out of fear you'd betray it one day?
It seems weird, how in the actual psyduck do you betray your country? Doesn't this only happen in video games?
Even if that were the case (and I doubt it is) it doesn't matter as far as legalities are concerned, because the Pledge is not a legally binding oath, and can never be held against a citizen. Not in any serious way.

See, a minor (defined as a person below age of consent) cannot legally enter a binding contract. Even if the Pledge was presented as a written document and he signed it, said document would be void.

(Contrary to what you see in movies, a signed contract drafted with intent to deceive or signed under duress can be challenged and voided rather easily.)

As for treason against America, that is also mostly a product of fiction. In the entire history of the United States, there have been only two (that's right, two) successful convictions for treason (and the legality of those two are often debated in hindsight).

Several people were prosecuted for it during the Red Scare and many were convicted, but all cases were overturned. (I'll be blunt, Joe McCarthy was a paranoid madman.)

The Constitution has a very specific and very complicated definition of the crime, it's inclusion specifically put there to prevent such a serious offense from being used frivolously.
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Old February 11th, 2019 (4:32 AM).
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Question to those who don't buy into the brainwashing theory: Why do you think it exists then?
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Old February 11th, 2019 (8:09 AM).
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Question to those who don't buy into the brainwashing theory: Why do you think it exists then?
It doesn't.

It's make-believe, like laser swords and force fields.

Nobody can be brainwashed into acting against their beliefs unless they want to.

Want proof? Mind control was something considered by the CIA's Project MKULTRA and, out of all the things they tried, was considered to be the least workable. Considering the things they did try, that was saying a lot.

Don't believe me? Here's what Mythbusters say:

http://www.discovery.com/tv-shows/mythbusters/mythbusters-database/mind-control-is-possible/
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Old February 11th, 2019 (8:53 AM).
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Originally Posted by Maedar View Post
It doesn't.

It's make-believe, like laser swords and force fields.

Nobody can be brainwashed into acting against their beliefs unless they want to.

Want proof? Mind control was something considered by the CIA's Project MKULTRA and, out of all the things they tried, was considered to be the least workable. Considering the things they did try, that was saying a lot.

Don't believe me? Here's what Mythbusters say:

http://www.discovery.com/tv-shows/mythbusters/mythbusters-database/mind-control-is-possible/
Okay, no. When I say "brainwashing", I am not talking about make believe/sci-fi instant, total mind control. I'm talking about slowly conditioning someone to be inclined to think or act a certain way over a long period of time in the same vein as Pavlovian Conditioning which absolutely a thing. If you grow up being told something or having certain beliefs and behaviours emphasised you will generally be influenced by this and can easily come to adopt those beliefs and behaviours as your own subconsciously.

I cited this earlier.

Now don't dodge my question. If the pledge of allegiance isn't being recited every morning for that purpose, then why is it? That trend didn't start up just to kill time.
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Old February 11th, 2019 (1:46 PM).
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Do they wish to make you loyal to the country out of fear you'd betray it one day?
It seems weird, how in the actual psyduck do you betray your country? Doesn't this only happen in video games?
One does not have to commit high treason in the vein of The Boss in Metal Gear Solid 3 in order to ‘betray’ their country. The point gimme and I are getting at is that the pledge of allegiance, particularly within schools, encourages conditioning of citizens to the point where acts of resistance to the status quo, such as Colin Kaepernick’s stance on police brutality, are seen as anathema to the moral fabric of the country. Blind loyalty to an inherently fallible set of people + ideals is incredibly toxic at best, and you will not see any hesitation of moral condemnation when they believe it has taken place in other countries. Particularly if they are or were socialist or outright communist. But yet, total blindness when it comes to examining the state of things back home. Overall, gimme and I are saying it is so easy to whip the nation into a nationalist stir because of the conditioning towards the country and its elites that has been present for their entire lives.

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Old February 11th, 2019 (3:40 PM). Edited February 11th, 2019 by Maedar.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gimmepie View Post
Okay, no. When I say "brainwashing", I am not talking about make believe/sci-fi instant, total mind control. I'm talking about slowly conditioning someone to be inclined to think or act a certain way over a long period of time in the same vein as Pavlovian Conditioning which absolutely a thing. .
Like Patty Hearst, you mean?

Well, for starters, the courts didn't buy it, despite the public debate. Second, how often do you hear about cases where a court does accept is as a defense?

Think about it.


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Originally Posted by gimmepie View Post
Now don't dodge my question. If the pledge of allegiance isn't being recited every morning for that purpose, then why is it? That trend didn't start up just to kill time.
To be completely honest, I don't know. Why do we still celebrate Labor Day? Rosie is long gone, so are the riveters. The purpose the holiday once had no longer exists, but we use it to have barbecues. Some traditions die hard.
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Old February 11th, 2019 (8:13 PM).
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    We haven’t said it in my school since 6th grade. Personally, I don’t think it should be required, not because of the “brainwashing” theory (which I sort of believe) but just because it takes up time. One or two minutes a day may not seem like much, but over the course of the year, that’s a ton of time spent doing the same thing over and over, which is useful time that could be spent teaching. I dunno, may seem like a weird reason, but that’s what I believe.
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    Old February 11th, 2019 (8:35 PM).
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      I did not know that they did rituals.:0

      It is kind of hmmm UNjustice if they force them. (i don't like unjustice)

      If people can choose to do it or not then it doesn't matter.
      (no one is superior )

      We are all humans so, each human has the right to do whatever they feel good to do. (As long its peacefull for everyone, though if someone burns down the school then no no not good)
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      Old February 11th, 2019 (9:01 PM).
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      Quote:
      Originally Posted by Maedar View Post
      Like Patty Hearst, you mean?

      Well, for starters, the courts didn't buy it, despite the public debate. Second, how often do you hear about cases where a court does accept is as a defense?

      Think about it.
      What the courts accept or don't accept isn't much of an argument. At the end of the day if you're conditioned to be violent over twenty years and end up killing someone, you're still a murderer that is dangerous to society and needs to be locked away.

      Also what the courts do or don't believe has no basis over scientific fact. Pavlovian conditioning and the like is scientific fact. Nothing you have said really has any impact on the validity of my argument.

      Since you don't know the answer to my last question, here's another one. Why did the practice start to begin with?
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      Old February 12th, 2019 (12:00 AM).
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      Quote:
      Originally Posted by Her View Post
      One does not have to commit high treason in the vein of The Boss in Metal Gear Solid 3 in order to ‘betray’ their country. The point gimme and I are getting at is that the pledge of allegiance, particularly within schools, encourages conditioning of citizens to the point where acts of resistance to the status quo, such as Colin Kaepernick’s stance on police brutality, are seen as anathema to the moral fabric of the country. Blind loyalty to an inherently fallible set of people + ideals is incredibly toxic at best, and you will not see any hesitation of moral condemnation when they believe it has taken place in other countries. Particularly if they are or were socialist or outright communist. But yet, total blindness when it comes to examining the state of things back home. Overall, gimme and I are saying it is so easy to whip the nation into a nationalist stir because of the conditioning towards the country and its elites that has been present for their entire lives.

      I’mmmmmm stiiiilllllll in a dreaaaaaaammmm, Snake Eaaaaaaterrrrrrrrrrr.
      Yeah this makes sense actually, like you'll people go on about clean water in other countries yet not bat an eye or even blame the citizens of flint.
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      Old February 12th, 2019 (1:13 PM). Edited February 12th, 2019 by Maedar.
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      Quote:
      Originally Posted by gimmepie View Post
      Since you don't know the answer to my last question, here's another one. Why did the practice start to begin with?
      Here you go, from Wikipedia. See the section under "origins":

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance#Balch_and_Bellamy_pledges

      Huh, a Christian socialist started it? Ironic...
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      Old February 12th, 2019 (4:42 PM).
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      Quote:
      Originally Posted by Maedar View Post
      Here you go, from Wikipedia. See the section under "origins":

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance#Balch_and_Bellamy_pledges

      Huh, a Christian socialist started it? Ironic...
      So basically

      Quote:
      The event was conceived and promoted by James B. Upham, a marketer for the magazine, as a campaign to instill the idea of American nationalism in students and to encourage children to raise flags above their schools.[17] According to author Margarette S. Miller, this campaign was in line both with Upham's patriotic vision as well as with his commercial interest. According to Miller, Upham "would often say to his wife: 'Mary, if I can instill into the minds of our American youth a love for their country and the principles on which it was founded, and create in them an ambition to carry on with the ideals which the early founders wrote into The Constitution, I shall not have lived in vain.'"[18]
      It exists for exactly the reason I say it exists.
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      Old February 12th, 2019 (5:10 PM).
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      Well, do you honestly believe it works?

      I should point out, I never said I approve of it, and I don't.
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      Old February 12th, 2019 (5:21 PM).
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      Well, do you honestly believe it works?

      I should point out, I never said I approve of it, and I don't.
      I don't believe it to be solely responsible for the toxic nationalism in the US nor do I believe it will have a measurable impact on everyone but it certainly plays its part since it is conditioning people during the most easy to mould and vulnerable time of their life and exists solely for the purpose of doing just that and the science backs that up.
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      Old 4 Weeks Ago (1:16 PM).
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      My view on this topic - and my view on America in general - just changed, after I saw this:

      https://www.rawstory.com/2019/02/11-year-old-florida-boy-arrested-refusing-stand-pledge-allegiance/?comments=disqus

      WTF is going on, America?? Are we really this vile?
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      Old 4 Weeks Ago (1:32 PM).
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        Quote:
        Originally Posted by Maedar View Post
        My view on this topic - and my view on America in general - just changed, after I saw this:

        https://www.rawstory.com/2019/02/11-year-old-florida-boy-arrested-refusing-stand-pledge-allegiance/?comments=disqus

        WTF is going on, America?? Are we really this vile?
        How is America in general responsible for this? Some substitute doesn’t know the policy and it’s America’s fault? Really?

        Better article.

        https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/education/2019/02/17/florida-sixth-grader-charged-with-misdemeanor-after-refusing-recite-pledge-allegiance/

        Arrest for the failure to follow instructions and disrupting class. Want to talk about brainwashing? Here’s an 11 year old spouting propaganda about being “brought here against his will.” Was he born here or kidnapped?
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        Old 4 Weeks Ago (1:48 PM). Edited 4 Weeks Ago by Maedar.
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        Quote:
        Arrest for the failure to follow instructions and disrupting class. Want to talk about brainwashing? Here’s an 11 year old spouting propaganda about being “brought here against his will.” Was he born here or kidnapped?
        He's 11 years old. A child.

        Use common sense.

        Ten years ago that teacher would be fired and her teaching certificate revoked.

        11 years old, and you're actually blaming the child.
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        Old 4 Weeks Ago (1:59 PM).
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          Quote:
          Originally Posted by Maedar View Post
          He's 11 years old. A child.

          Use common sense.

          Ten years ago that teacher would be fired and her teaching certificate revoked.

          11 years old, and you're actually blaming the child.
          You think an upset 11 year old can’t disrupt class and refuse to follow instructions? Unless he’s got a learning disability, an 11 yr old is quite capable of making decisions.

          The substitute won’t be working in that school system again. Even ten years ago, it wouldn’t be likely to get fired or get revoked. Teachers unfortunately get away with far worse. This isn’t worth losing a sub over. Make sure all the subs learn from this and move on.
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          Old 4 Weeks Ago (2:06 PM).
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          Quote:
          You think an upset 11 year old can’t disrupt class and refuse to follow instructions? Unless he’s got a learning disability, an 11 yr old is quite capable of making decisions.
          I want to ask anyone reading this if they think someone who says this should even be allowed near children. Clearly he has none of his own if he thinks arresting an 11 year old is ever justified.
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          Old 4 Weeks Ago (2:13 PM).
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            I want to ask anyone reading this if they think someone who says this should even be allowed near children. Clearly he has none of his own if he thinks arresting an 11 year old is ever justified.
            Amusing. “Is arresting an 11 yr old ever justified?”
            https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews.go.com/amp/US/happened-11-year-boy-accused-murdering-pregnant-stepmom/story%3fid=58613764

            I don’t know. You tell me.

            As far as the pledge kid goes, I don’t know. If the kid was refusing to calm down and comply then the school was probably justified. It’s not like they can physically drag the kid out of the classroom. They could face child abuse charges. News articles always leave stuff out.
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            Old 4 Weeks Ago (2:16 PM).
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            You're comparing the crime of murder to refusing to say the pledge?

            Hear that, everyone, he compared murder to something that isn't even illegal.
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            Old 4 Weeks Ago (2:21 PM).
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              Quote:
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              You're comparing the crime of murder to refusing to say the pledge?

              Hear that, everyone, he compared murder to something that isn't even illegal.
              Amusing. I was refuting your comment about justifying arresting an 11 yr old.
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              Old 4 Weeks Ago (2:33 PM).
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              LDS, let me put it this way. I've seen so many horrible stories on the news these days about cops beating up pre-teens, and even worse replies from folks siding with the cops.

              Recorded footage is aired of a cop beating up a female 12-year-old student half his size. Comments call the kid a hooligan and say the cop was justified. Course, all the "hooligan" did was act rowdy in class, and rather than give her detention, the teacher has the cop beat her up.

              A cop is recorded on tape at a kid's birthday pool-party, using mace on a kid. Again, the cop is justified, and the "hoodlums" are to blame. Yeah, there house and all they did - maybe - was make too much noise, but it's their fault.

              It's like Rodney King with children.

              Are we such barbarians that this has become acceptable? Each time I asked, "WTF? Why is this an issue? Police who beat up kids are bullies and dirty cops who should be stripped of their badges and fired, end of story!"

              What has America become? I ask you that. We used to be better than this. The flag is NOT more important than a child's well-being. End of story.
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