Atheist Alliance

PhantomX0990 said:

Well I didn't say every conflict included religion.

For other reasons atheists might consider religion an enemy. [bunch of tl;dr links that I've glossed over]

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It's a sad reality, but I believe that Atheists and Theists will never get together, because I doubt that many theists are tolerant of atheist views, "my kind," where I tolerate those views to certain degree, is an exception.

It may sound funny and nonsensical to you, but religious people hold their views in a very high regard, and God is, as you know, highest of all beings. Condemning those values (such as saying they don't exist, they're killing people) is basically synonymous to insulting and committing sacrilege, therefore there will be less trust on atheists. It's only my thoughts, though.

If you still don't get it, it's like somebody insulting your parents, your friends... or whoever else that you hold in high regard.

I certainly don't agree with last 2 paragraphs I wrote, though. It's just way many religious people believe. I can understand why some atheists think the way they do (I admit, I was "close" to being Atheist last summer). It does irritate me, however, if they form their arguments out of their own assumptions and/or exert some sort of superiority complex. (example: "my opinion is better than urs", "your opinion is dumb cuz u cant even prove it", "lol im smarter cuz i proved u wrong"... etc)

PhantomX0990 said:

1. Yes there is. The Arch Diocese or local church keeps records of each Confirmation. I don't have authorization to view private files. Sorry.
2. Excommunication is still the CCC, so no, it's no 'obsolete'.MODERN EXCOMMUNICATION
3. List of Excommunicated people. Including 21st century.
4. It's a personal preference, which I've already explained.

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Ignorance on my part, if everything you said is true. (also goes for what toujours said). Honestly, I learn something new everyday, even from people who I don't have the same ideals with. That's not bad, I guess.

If you adamantly don't want to be the part of the 65 million (or whatever the number is), and if your archbishop fervently refuses to take your name off for whatever reason, just hire a lawyer in the near future and see what they can do for you. I can't help you further on this issue, I'm afraid.

2Cool4Mewtwo said:

It's a sad reality, but I believe that Atheists and Theists will never get together, because I doubt that many theists are tolerant of atheist views, "my kind," where I tolerate those views to certain degree, is an exception.

It may sound funny and nonsensical to you, but religious people hold their views in a very high regard, and God is, as you know, highest of all beings. Condemning those values (such as saying they don't exist, they're killing people) is basically synonymous to insulting and committing sacrilege, therefore there will be less trust on atheists. It's only my thoughts, though.

If you still don't get it, it's like somebody insulting your parents, your friends... or whoever else that you hold in high regard.

Wait, what?

I certainly don't agree with last 2 paragraphs I wrote, though. It's just way many religious people believe. I can understand why some atheists think the way they do (I admit, I was "close" to being Atheist last summer). It does irritate me, however, if they form their arguments out of their own assumptions and/or exert some sort of superiority complex. (example: "my opinion is better than urs", "your opinion is dumb cuz u cant even prove it", "lol im smarter cuz i proved u wrong"... etc)

Ignorance on my part, if everything you said is true. (also goes for what toujours said). Honestly, I learn something new everyday, even from people who I don't have the same ideals with. That's not bad, I guess.

If you adamantly don't want to be the part of the 65 million (or whatever the number is), and if your archbishop fervently refuses to take your name off for whatever reason, just hire a lawyer in the near future and see what they can do for you. I can't help you further on this issue, I'm afraid.

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1. Don't act like you know everything, then step off your high horse when you are found wrong.
2. On lawyers. Separation of Church and State. It's a thingie now.
3. It sounds like you hold yourself in high regard. A bit of an egotistic nature, if you don't mind me saying. Here's a thing. Argue only about what you know.

Oh, I'm not mad. I'm just giving advice. Before you come to a debate you should know something about what you're talking about.

Look all I want is to have my name off. It's personal and might not make sense to an outsider, but I'm not doing it to make sense to anyone, I'm doing it for me.

I have a somewhat related-ish question that I've wondered about for a very long time. Why are atheists (the ones I meet anyway) always hellbent on convincing others that God doesn't exist?

I understand that Christians do it far more, but they do it to help/save people, and should (ideally, though probably not always) have only good intentions. As far as I can tell, there's no reason other than that they think Christians are stupid, is there?

Trying my best not to step on my toes. Just genuinely curious.

To be honest, I've never seen an atheist try to convince others that God doesn't exist. I'm not denying it happens because I'm certain it does, but I've never seen the situation occur so I can't judge it from that standpoint or speak with any degree of certainty. I've never tried to convince others myself that God doesn't exist either - I know he doesn't exist, and I feel like it would be a waste of energy trying to use logic to fight faith when all logic can do is provide proof that God doesn't exist while faith, by definition, is blind and does not require proof. I prefer to denounce religion rather than the belief in God, which are two very separate things.

But thinking about it, this is my speculation. Since the atheists in question are trying to pull people away from God, it's seen as sinister while the Christians who are trying to force people into him can only be seen as at the very least well-intentioned. But I think it's possible that the atheists have good intentions as well. Atheists are atheists for a reason, and the ones who are militant enough to try to convert people would have less than favourable views of religion. It makes sense to me that they would be trying to help or save people as well by attempting to show them that they don't need to live in fear of divine retribution or live by the often perverse restrictions that religion provides.

I feel in the same vein as Shining Raichu. God and Jesus sound like pretty cool guys in the same vein that Superman and Batman sound like pretty cool guys (OK, maybe not so much God, people should take notes from Jesus). I've no problem really if you like those folks because everyone has their own personal favorite characters and that you are not imposing your opinions on everyone systematically. However, I have less than favorable views of how the institutions known as "religion" have integrated within our governments and corporations in order to enforce their interests upon the entirety of the population in the name of those awesome people. I really could care less that your institution promotes love, peace, charity, and all that when they're systematically forcing the populace to practice their outdated social beliefs in legislation, such as treating women and LGBT+ persons as second-class.

As for atheist denial of god, it's one thing for religion to be a spiritual exploration of the self. It's another to be a fundamentalist who outright denies research and experimental facts because of god. Because of the volume of the outcries of many such fundamentalists, to atheists, the concept of a god is more of a monument to anti-intellectualism than and all powerful and benevolent being from which morals should be derived.

Joining. God doesn't exist, and if he did, I wouldn't want to worship him.

I have a somewhat related-ish question that I've wondered about for a very long time. Why are atheists (the ones I meet anyway) always hellbent on convincing others that God doesn't exist?

I understand that Christians do it far more, but they do it to help/save people, and should (ideally, though probably not always) have only good intentions. As far as I can tell, there's no reason other than that they think Christians are stupid, is there?

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I think it's assumed far too often that Christians are doing it to help anyone but themselves. I feel like more often it's just the fact they don't want to share a world with non-Christians, and though they may never be friends with those ex-gays and former satanist-witches, they could think about tolerating them once they handed their lives over to their god. I equate it to a black family moving into an all-white neighborhood and only being somewhat accepted when they start acting like the white families.

I think Atheists are mostly disgruntled due to the fact that they are looked down upon by those who are preaching something they have no evidence of. Atheists probably have about as good of intentions as Christians, who they believe are wasting their lives on something that doesn't exist.

Charlie Kelly said:

Joining. God doesn't exist, and if he did, I wouldn't want to worship him.

I think Atheists are mostly disgruntled due to the fact that they are looked down upon by those who are preaching something they have no evidence of. Atheists probably have about as good of intentions as Christians, who they believe are wasting their lives on something that doesn't exist.

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This is pretty much what I'm talking about actually.

QuilavaKing said:

This is pretty much what I'm talking about actually.

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Sigh.

You must also understand; You're in a ATHEIST CLUB. Not that you're not welcome. It's just that things here will naturally be more geared toward atheism than theism.

I agree with Shining Raichu with what he said about your question.

But also think this. It's not about 'convincing' a theist that they're wrong. It's trying to explain our point. Example. John is a Christian. Bill is an atheist. Note very corny.

John: Hi my name is John, and I'm a Christian.
Bill: Oh, hi. I'm Bill.
John: You're Christian too?
Bill: No, I'm not. I'm atheist.
John: What?
Bill: Atheist. It means I don't believe in god.
John: So what religion are you?
Bill: I don't have one.
John: How can you not believe in God?
Bill: *Begins explaining*
John: Why are you talking to me like I'm stupid?
Bill: I'm just trying to explain to you why I don't think god exists.
John: *gives standard 'explain this then if there's no god' argument*
Bill: But that can't be because of 'x' reason.
John: Why are you trying to convince me there's no god?
Bill: I'm not. I'm just saying why I think there's no god.

And it repeats like that. Atheist gets asked a question. They answer with what they know. They get accused of trying to turn people from god.

Also note. If you're talking about us. It's the internet. I definately wouldn't say the things I said here to someone in real life. Here we can be more exact and more... straightforward with our arguments.

Also also, it's a debate. That's just what a debate is.

EDIT: Continuing conversation;

Top Believer's weirdest reasons they know god exists. (that I've heard)
1. Unmoved Mover Philosphy
2. Bananas: Literally god's fruit.
3. Because Venus in Retrograde
4. The Bible proves it.
5. Personal Experience
6. Complexity Argument
7. The Human Eye
8. Pascal's Wager
9. Watchmaker Theory
10. BECAUSE I KNOW IT
and a bonus for proof of creation
*Second Law of Thermodynamics!

PhantomX0990 said:

Sigh.

You must also understand; You're in a ATHEIST CLUB. Not that you're not welcome. It's just that things here will naturally be more geared toward atheism than theism.

I agree with Shining Raichu with what he said about your question.

But also think this. It's not about 'convincing' a theist that they're wrong. It's trying to explain our point. Example. John is a Christian. Bill is an atheist. Note very corny.

John: Hi my name is John, and I'm a Christian.
Bill: Oh, hi. I'm Bill.
John: You're Christian too?
Bill: No, I'm not. I'm atheist.
John: What?
Bill: Atheist. It means I don't believe in god.
John: So what religion are you?
Bill: I don't have one.
John: How can you not believe in God?
Bill: *Begins explaining*
John: Why are you talking to me like I'm stupid?
Bill: I'm just trying to explain to you why I don't think god exists.
John: *gives standard 'explain this then if there's no god' argument*
Bill: But that can't be because of 'x' reason.
John: Why are you trying to convince me there's no god?
Bill: I'm not. I'm just saying why I think there's no god.

And it repeats like that. Atheist gets asked a question. They answer with what they know. They get accused of trying to turn people from god.

Also note. If you're talking about us. It's the internet. I definately wouldn't say the things I said here to someone in real life. Here we can be more exact and more... straightforward with our arguments.

Also also, it's a debate. That's just what a debate is.

EDIT: Continuing conversation;

Top Believer's weirdest reasons they know god exists. (that I've heard)
1. Unmoved Mover Philosphy
2. Bananas: Literally god's fruit.
3. Because Venus in Retrograde
4. The Bible proves it.
5. Personal Experience
6. Complexity Argument
7. The Human Eye
8. Pascal's Wager
9. Watchmaker Theory
10. BECAUSE I KNOW IT
and a bonus for proof of creation
*Second Law of Thermodynamics!

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Oh, I know. I'm just saying that most Atheists that I meet act like that, regardless of setting. Some even bully Christians irl etc. Quite a few of my closer friends are like that actually, although we've never discussed our beliefs, I've just seen them doing it to other people.

And I honestly don't know of anyone who doesn't know what Atheism is. Have you actually had to explain it to anyone?

Hey Charlie, welcome! :D

QuilavaKing said:

And I honestly don't know of anyone who doesn't know what Atheism is. Have you actually had to explain it to anyone

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Yeah, I have lol - my stupid grandmother. I spent a good fifteen minutes trying to convince her that such a thing even existed. She was so far removed from reality that she couldn't even conceive of a state of mind in which someone does not believe in God. She liked me a lot less after that conversation lol

Toujours said:

I've had to explain agnosticism to people in the past, lol.

But I think it's somewhat along the lines of the people that are both argumentative and atheist (not everyone obviously but they do exist) feel often as if they're "educating" the other person. Since many atheists come from a religious background and they 'saw the light' and turned to the logic of atheism, they could feel like the religious person is only religious because they haven't seen the light of logic. It's similar to the Christians who evangelize - they want to help people by helping them see the light of God and live a holy life, while atheists want to help people by helping them see the light of logic and live an intellectual life.

Although I've never heard an atheist irl try to convince someone they're wrong, and even online I've seen arguments towards Christians in general but never one where one atheist tries to convince one Christian that their way is the right way. I have seen it flipped though, both irl and online.

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I think it's likely that we don't notice it nearly as much when we agree with the ones doing the preaching/bullying. I'm sure Christians do it far more than I realize, though it is kind of our job, so I've definitely seen it happen. lol

QuilavaKing said:

though it is kind of our job

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This fascinates me. It's your job to turn more people into Christians?

Well, pretty much. Considering what we believe happens to people who aren't saved, you'd be a pretty horrible person if you didn't want to save* as many people as possible. I mean, if I could go back and time and save Hitler I would do it without a second thought. I don't think anyone deserves hell, no matter what they've done.


*By which, I mean making them Christians so they go to heaven, not hell.

So would you say that under your beliefs, the members of this club are going to Hell?

Shining Raichu said:

So would you say that under your beliefs, the members of this club are going to Hell?

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Sadly yes, though the only thing that's necessary to go to heaven is to genuinely believe in god, and ask him to be part of your life through prayer, which anyone can do at any point, even someone like Hitler, as I said earlier. (For me anyway, I guess some other versions are more involved, though I can't believe that rituals like what phantom described could possibly be necessary.)

Toujours said:

I think there's something somewhere that says all Christians (or Catholics at least) are supposed to evangelize with everything they do and try to least the 'stray sheep' back into the flock. Think of it this way - say you were in a group of people that actually drank water. The rest of the people were slowly dying since they wouldn't drink any water. You would try to convince them to drink water, right? It's kind of that way, but spiritual. The idea is to "help" people that don't believe so they can be saved as well.

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Yeah, pretty much. I mean, if someone was going to commit suicide, and you thought you could stop them, and make them feel happy again, wouldn't you? It's more or less the same.