Coming Out

Since you discounted it last time:

Hate ending hate is a concept that basically invalidates justifiable anger from minorities for no good reason. From my understanding of it the argument is "If you're nice then people will take you more seriously" but why should they be nice when they don't have the assurance that they will even get respect in turn? "Oh hey guys, I know you don't like gay people and I wanna say that's cool. Hopefully one day you'll change your mind" doesn't mean ♥♥♥♥ when there's a group of people beating you up or whatever.

Basically what it boils down to for me is "Even though you're having a lot of trouble you can't be angry about it" which is discounting the opinions of minorities and honestly? Historically, as I read texts of indignation vs. French colonialism, anger and change has come about in people finding a voice. You are essentially telling minorities to not use their voice. That is why they are in trouble in the first place.

It does not, actually. Like I mentioned previously Martin Luther King Jr., was someone who was greatly abused by the inequalities that people faced. So he, instead of turning to violence, he wrote absolutely amazing papers that moved the public. Rosa Parks and the other African Americans crippled the Montgomery bus system by not using it. There are ways to get your point across without getting violent, and claiming that peaceful protest invalidates it simply is fueling the rage. Destruction only makes people fear, instead of feel compassion for, your cause.

I ask you to cite examples in modern history that have defeated segregation of any minority that relied on violence over peaceful protest.

daigonite said:

It does not, actually. Like I mentioned previously Martin Luther King Jr., was someone who was greatly abused by the inequalities that people faced. So he, instead of turning to violence, he wrote absolutely amazing papers that moved the public. Rosa Parks and the other African Americans crippled the Montgomery bus system by not using it. There are ways to get your point across without getting violent, and claiming that peaceful protest invalidates it simply is fueling the rage. Destruction only makes people fear, instead of feel compassion for, your cause.

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I actually wasn't advocating that we all go riot or anything but you know rather the fact that people who get mad over the fact people are rightfully angry should suck it up and that we have the right to be angry especially when we debate with people over it.

I ask you to cite examples in modern history that have defeated segregation of any minority that relied on violence over peaceful protest.

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Stonewall riots.

♥♥♥♥ing done.

actually watch this video

This is a decent example but I am willing to argue back that it has become ineffective in at least integrating homosexuals in today's society. Many people still fear homosexuals today. In fact, I can think of a riot that had the exact opposite effect - the Race Riots of Detroit in 1967.

As a metro Detroiter, racism is very common against black people in prosperous communities that are in Metro Detroit, such as Auburn Hills and Rochester. While they have always been fairly racist areas that relied on classism to prevent African Americans from living in these areas, the race riots of Detroit only fueled this.

In addition, the race riots only furthered the image that black people were thieving scumbags to the already racist white population, and it damages even those who supported them even more than that, making them feel even more alienated from their culture, preventing integration. These premises still exist today.

It is very common for black people to talk down about white people in the metro area, and vice versa. The riot only helped solidify these differences. While a riot may have been effective in preventing legal apprehension once, it has also led to the complete segregation of others. Therefore it is not an effective action for progressive movements.

While I may not feel this way towards African Americans, the damage is already done on culture, and there is indeed a noticable shift between white and black culture in Detroit, and honestly, it's kind of sad. I think there's a lot of really great people out there, but they fear each other because of incidents that have solidified the stereotypes about the other.

Uhh, going to expand on my first post after reading this.

Although personally; my preferences and such involve me only really making an approach of a romantic/sexual nature to someone after a significant amount of time of knowing them; people do have the right to be as open as they like about their sexuality. If straight people can hook up with ease for lusty needs, why can't non-straight people do the same? (They can, I know.) I have a personal disdain for people that go for people out of lust primarily over romance, and maybe that's why I said what I did, how I did.

Should people's willingness to be open about their sexuality affect some GREAT BATTLE? I don't think so, personally. Whether you're on about boning/doing whatever with guys/girls/??? you do have the choice to be as open as you like about it. Just might irritate me if I don't hear the end of it, that's all~ Being proud of who you are is nice though, I think. I'm a little secretive by nature, but as long as that's respected, I'll respect people back.

haha you're all dicks

...what, I thought we had to make a jab to go with our posts in this topic now?

I would like to remind you all to respect & debate each others' opinions without baiting and trolling each other, because all I'm seeing so far is flame bait.

This thread had some excellent posts in the first one and a half pages and just descended from thereon.

Alessi_sys said:

In essence, everyone comes out in life. We come out to our friends and family when we begin seeing someone romantically, we come out when we get new jobs. We come out when we completed a project. Coming out isn't just about revealing one's sexual orientation, it's also about inviting others to share in the joy in our lives, no matter what that might be. We come out every day for one reason or another.

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/thread

also celebrities, can't believe they're a big deal. what about historical celebrities like napoleon or machiavelli or socrates or somebody like that? seems that all we want to do today is consume media or something like that

I told myself I wouldn't post in here but...

Alessi_sys said:

In essence, everyone comes out in life. We come out to our friends and family when we begin seeing someone romantically, we come out when we get new jobs. We come out when we completed a project. Coming out isn't just about revealing one's sexual orientation, it's also about inviting others to share in the joy in our lives, no matter what that might be. We come out every day for one reason or another.

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I'm just so disenhartened that a gay man would say this. There is a very strong difference, in say, telling your parents you're in love with the same sex, going against the norm than telling your friends "Oh yeah I'm dating this girl I met" (if you're straight).

This entire passage just invalidates what me and a bunch of other gay people are trying to have people take seriously. I'm just so disappointed. Especially since you're a gay man and people will use a whole "WELL A GAY GUY SAID THIS SO OBVIOUSLY ALL GAY PEOPLE THINK THIS WAY" sort of thing. I'm just sad reading it.

please don't equate the struggle i've had in selectively choosing who i share my sexual orientation with (in fear of having people say they don't love me) to random little things you share with your friends/family. that isn't fair. that isn't right.

it's also about inviting others to share in the joy in our lives, no matter what that might be

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I think this is the crux of his idea. Not everything in life is a competition of who's got it worse. Fair or right is out of the question really, Jay has his own experiences and a unique perspective and they shouldn't be discounted just because you think it invalidates your own.

I understand that it is the crux of his idea, but the fact is that coming out of the closet for gay people is not sunshine and rainbows. When you try and re-define something that has already had so much strong significance for gay people... it's very bitter, it stings, and with the amount of people who blindly follow that sort of mindset, it makes me feel that straight people are entitled to not take our struggles seriously.

Then maybe it should be redefined. Hopefully being gay is part of a reason a person is happy, and wanting to share that happiness with others is a big part of coming out. "I want to show the world what it means for me to love, but I can't..." it's not sunshines and rainbows, but it should lead up to that.

Hopefully one day we can get to the point where we can re-define it, but as long as we live in a world where children are still terrified to tell their parents in fear of getting kicked out of their house, afraid to tell their friends in fear of being a pariah, losing jobs, not receiving government services, the entire social stigma of being seen as "different"... it's just not a smart idea right now. It's well-meaning, but we have to wait until a day where we're ready, and that certainly isn't now and probably isn't any time soon.

Moogles said:

I'm just so disenhartened that a gay man would say this. There is a very strong difference, in say, telling your parents you're in love with the same sex, going against the norm than telling your friends "Oh yeah I'm dating this girl I met" (if you're straight).

This entire passage just invalidates what me and a bunch of other gay people are trying to have people take seriously. I'm just so disappointed. Especially since you're a gay man and people will use a whole "WELL A GAY GUY SAID THIS SO OBVIOUSLY ALL GAY PEOPLE THINK THIS WAY" sort of thing. I'm just sad reading it.

please don't equate the struggle i've had in selectively choosing who i share my sexual orientation with (in fear of having people say they don't love me) to random little things you share with your friends/family. that isn't fair. that isn't right.

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Wow. I just don't know what to say to this. The level of ignorance you are displaying is truly astonishing.

Edit: Since I received a rather testy response in my visitor mailbox, I will expand on the main point mentioned.

There is a very strong difference, in say, telling your parents you're in love with the same sex, going against the norm than telling your friends "Oh yeah I'm dating this girl I met" (if you're straight).

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This statement ignores the countless murders of young women who dared come out to their friends and family to tell them that they were dating a man. These murders are called honour killings and hundreds of them occur all over the world (including in the U.S., Canada and the UK) every year. So in your example you may risk being shunned by your family, but for these women the risk to them for going against the wishes of their families by dating the "wrong" guy is far, far, worse.

As was mentioned, people's struggles cannot be made into a contest to see who is suffering more. No matter how tough you think you have it, there is always someone out there who is suffering more than you. All choices we make carries risk. And all risks, no matter how seemingly trivial, should be treated as serious.

Alessi_sys said:

Edit: Since I received a rather testy response in my visitor mailbox, I will expand on the main point mentioned.

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I've been asked to tone it down and I have. I have been nothing but polite since then. Your passive aggression is very uncalled for.

This statement ignores the countless murders of young women who dared come out to their friends and family to tell them that they were dating a man. These murders are called honour killings and hundreds of them occur all over the world (including in the U.S., Canada and the UK) every year. So in your example you may risk being shunned by your family, but for these women the risk to them for going against the wishes of their families by dating the "wrong" guy is far, far, worse.

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But the term coming out hasn't been publicly, historically and sociologically associated with that.

As was mentioned, people's struggles cannot be made into a contest to see who is suffering more. No matter how tough you think you have it, there is always someone out there who is suffering more than you. All choices we make carries risk. And all risks, no matter how seemingly trivial, should be treated as serious.

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I'm... not arguing this. I don't understand how you think I am.

Moogles said:

But the term coming out hasn't been publicly, historically and sociologically associated with that.

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Does that even matter? Are we so stuck up that only we in the LGBT community can use that term? We would be hypocrites then because we also have been accused of using terms that were previously associated with other struggles. My point was that in every day life we make choices that carries certain risks. They may seem trivial to others, but the process by which a person reveals something private about themselves to another can be just as frightening, just as risky, and just as potentially rewarding as a gay youth coming out to his or her family and friends. Unlike you I don't try to compare the risks. I just accept them and try to be as supportive as I can to everyone who shares something personal with me.

Moogles said:

I'm... not arguing this. I don't understand how you think I am.

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Because you made a comparison between someone coming out as gay to a guy saying they are dating a certain girl. Both actions carry risks, but you elevated the risk for the person coming out as gay over the person saying they are dating a certain girl.

This is the last time I'm going to pop in here to restore order. We're moving to infractions from here on out. Be like Elsa and let it goooooooo.

Keiran said:

You missunderstand the message behind coming out completely, especially from the voice of a celebrity.

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I don't misunderstand anything. I realise exactly what this "coming out" process is supposed to do, I'm telling you that despite this it is sending an entirely different message. Honestly though, I don't want to be infracted for being snarky or anything and at this stage I have pretty much given my arguments to death so I'll probably jut leave it be for now.

I think this just boils down to how conservative you are/how seriously you take celebrities. I know some gay people who could give more ♥♥♥♥s about which famous person came out when and where etc etc and I guess they're people I like more than most. Not everybody is a fan of "omg look at you and how absolutely gay you are" unless that's your schtick and that's what you do. I, for one, don't see sexuality as a big deal. There are bigger things, like jobs and relationships and hobbies and politics to worry about.

twocows said:

I don't care if people talk about it, but to me, sexuality is a private issue. If you want to let people close to you know, that's fine, but I just don't see it as the kind of topic to talk about to people who aren't your close friends. Aside from flirting and jokes and such, I don't talk to others about the kinds of things I like because, to be honest, they have no business knowing it.

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I agree to an extent, but I also will say that some gay people flaunt it more than others because they want people to know. Not to be an attention ♥♥♥♥♥, but because they wanna attract the gender that they're in to, or deflect the gender that they're not into. Like, I'm noticeably female, but also pretty guyish, which is a trait most people relate to lesbians. I don't want guys to flirt with me, or find me attractive, but if there's girls around who swing that way, I'd like them to notice. It's a bit like how some people who are straight dress in ways that try to attract the opposite sex to them.

Bad thing about that is when you're a boyish lesbian, or a feminine gay guy, people have a tendency to judge you rather negatively.

Also, it's a common conversation to talk about what or who you like. If someone has never talked about dates, or crushes, or relationships with people when it comes up in small talk, then.. wow. Those are sorta typical when it comes to topics, and it's hard to keep completely silent about your private life and not be open with others, or slip up. "Slip up" as in accidentally tell someone you're gay, because it's so obvious to you that you don't always think to keep it to yourself. Sucks that we have to anyway, which.. I guess loops back around into this thread's main argument.

I was not arguing with you, I was just trying to make some points. -w-

I realize the discussion has kinda died down since the magic word "infraction" has been spoken, but I figure I'll still put in my two cents. Who knows, the discussion could continue provided people stay civil~

So, here's what I think. I think the gay community needs to stop preaching acceptance, and start preaching mind your own business. That is, what two consenting adults do in privacy is no one's business, and therefore there's not even any need for you to accept it, because it bears no relevance to you. Right now the impression that I get is that the LGBT is saying, rather than "it's none of your business", it's saying "it is your business, but I want you to be okay with it". I could be wrong, but that's just the impression I get.

With regards to celebrities coming out, I noticed that a lot of people mentioned that we should applaud the bravery that it takes for them to come out as gay. Let's just stop for a moment and ask ourselves: does it take any bravery to come as gay out to the public these days? Coming out is brave when you have a drunken fundamentalist stepfather with a criminal record. Coming out is hardly brave when you're coming out to a decidedly pro-gay pop culture and media where if you come out you're treated as a pretty much a hero. I'm not trying to belittle them or their experience. I'm just saying that there's a world of difference between a bullied teenager from an abusive conservative family coming out, and a celebrity coming out on the Oprah Show the day their biography comes out...