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Old December 17th, 2018 (1:07 AM).
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https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-sm-ou-suspect-process-round-6-a-thousand-miles.3645049/

Welp, just as I thought the OU meta was pretty healthy, this comes along and makes me question whether Zygarde is a healthy influence or not. So in case any of you are wondering, the premise is that Zygarde has too few checks, and this snake can easily diversify his set to get around these checks, such as running Toxic for Tangrowth or Iron Tail with Steelium Z for Clefable and Tapu Bulu. Despite this, only Tapu Bulu is the closest thing to a counter, but...I'm not so sure about that.

What do you think? Do you think Zygarde will get clobbered by the banhammer?
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Old December 17th, 2018 (3:59 AM).
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I don't agree with this, at all. This feels like a suspect test just because nothing has been happening.

Being versatile doesn't mean broken. Z moves, in general, have been used to lure usual checks. You can usually even predict the set with Zygarde based around the team structure. If I remember correctly, it wasn't even hard to find a defensive check. Gastrodon, for example, started seeing use.

If this is being bought up because OU hasn't been changing, it would be far more interesting seeing them allow certain Ubers for short times in the tier.
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Old December 17th, 2018 (9:17 AM). Edited December 17th, 2018 by Levea.
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i do not agree, we have dealt with Zygarde for i think 3 years now and every time it has been manageable.
Zygarde has viable counters in the OU tier
- Landorus
- Clefable ( under most conditions)
- tangrowth
- Tapu Bulu
perhaps more that i am missing.
it does not have any real broken moves. Yes thousand arrows hits all mons in the game but the above mons can handle it. Sludge wave? why run that? Yes it gets quite a bit of decent utility moves in the form of substitute and glare/toxic but even then it is not too bad.
does not really get the movepool to deal with the above threats except the inaccurate iron tail for bulu and clefable.
Its ability is really bad....
Does this mon require unusual mons/sets to counter?: Not really the above mons are or were pretty common mons in the tier.




Also if we get rid of Zygarde, i think heatran will need to tested at some point because Zygarde hard stops it in most cases. Without Zygarde, heatran becomes so much better.

To be honest i think heatran or Ash-gren would have been a better suspect than Zygarde.

I might be missing some info but i wanted to speak my mind on this matter without writing an entire essay.
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Old December 17th, 2018 (10:01 AM). Edited December 17th, 2018 by HeroLinik.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levea View Post
i do not agree, we have dealt with Zygarde for i think 3 years now and every time it has been manageable.
Zygarde has viable counters in the OU tier
- Landorus
- Clefable ( under most conditions)
- tangrowth
- Tapu Bulu
perhaps more that i am missing.
it does not have any real broken moves. Yes thousand arrows hits all mons in the game but the above mons can handle it. Sludge wave? why run that? Yes it gets quite a bit of decent utility moves in the form of substitute and glare/toxic but even then it is not too bad.
does not really get the movepool to deal with the above threats except the inaccurate iron tail for bulu and clefable.
Its ability is really bad....
Does this mon require unusual mons/sets to counter?: Not really the above mons are or were pretty common mons in the tier.
Alright, so I had a look at your list, and it seems that the mons in this list only counter some Zygarde sets, while merely check others. I'll go through each one you listed in detail.

- Landorus-T - it's only a mere check to some sets. It can only come in about once or twice and gets easily chipped down because it doesn't have any reliable recovery, especially if it's up against a Choice Band variant. SubCoil variants also risk getting hit by Glare and giving Zygarde momentum, while in return Lando gets crippled and loses a lot of staying power.
- Clefable - one of the best tools you can use to dispose of Zygarde. While Choice Band sets are somewhat troublesome for Clefable to deal with, it does come with reliable recovery in the form of Soft-Boiled, and Unaware walls Coil/DD sets. In a way, it counters some sets while merely checking others. Unfortunately, it should be noted that Unaware sets will lose to Toxic. Some Zygarde sets try to tech for Clefable and similar ones by running Z-Iron Tail.
- Tangrowth - another standout means of dealing with Zygarde. Completely no-sells Thousand Arrows thanks to bulk but again, it still loses to Toxic. Z-Outrage is another problem for Tangrowth, but that set has fallen off a lot because it provides no means to deal with Clefable, one of its strongest checks/counters.
- Tapu Bulu - Bulk Up sets beat Zygarde one-on-one. Swords Dance sets are also a good tool for getting rid of Coil variants because you'll be able to outdo Zygarde's defense boosts. But then again, some Zygarde sets will try to tech for Bulu by running Z-Iron Tail.

Also, the problem with Zygarde here is not the fact that the checks/counters listed here are actually good mons in OU, it's the fact that Zygarde suffers from "counter of the week" syndrome. The sheer versatility and movepool that Zygarde provides makes it really hard to check/counter on paper, because you can't tell what set the Zygarde is running until too late (although it can be possible to deduce the set based on the team makeup, for example if you see a Toxapex, it's likely to be a Substitute variant). Several checks/counters have been used along the course of the tier history, such as fast Ice Beam Mew, defensive Choice Scarf Lando and Curse Mega Scizor - and now the latest counter is Tangrowth. But time and time again, a new set rises in popularity, designed to deal with its counters. This time around, some people are running RestTalk sets to try and stall out Tangrowth, as well as the aforementioned Toxic.

And while you do mention that the checks/counters are actually good in OU, the problem is that sometimes games will play themselves out because they're running a Zygarde set that your team can't check/counter. It becomes less "oh, I have Tangrowth, this should be easy" and more "oh god, I hope he's not a Toxic variant, otherwise I've lost..." and in a way Zygarde is basically impossible to counter with one Pokemon alone. Because of this sheer versatility, teams have had to resort to running 2 or 3 checks/counters to Zygarde, which severely constricts teambuilding even if the Pokemon are good, and that still doesn't cover all the sets. In a way it's quite similar to the Mega Metagross suspect back in early SM, where Mega Metagross was just so dang versatile and you can't tell its moves until too late. This again, meant you had to bring 2 or 3 mons just to deal with it.
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Originally Posted by Levea View Post
Also if we get rid of Zygarde, i think heatran will need to tested at some point because Zygarde hard stops it in most cases. Without Zygarde, heatran becomes so much better.
I actually see the same happening. If Zygarde leaves, Heatran loses a switch-in, and will probably end up defining the tier. As a consequence, Ash-Greninja usage will probably rise as well, and if it gets too much for OU to handle then they'll probably both get suspected. Garchomp usage will also probably rise because that thing can come in on Firium variants or standard trapper variants, but it still has trouble switching in on a Steelium Z. Now that I mention it, I kinda see specially defensive Landorus-T becoming a thing...to check Heatran...
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Old December 17th, 2018 (11:55 AM).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeroLinik View Post
Alright, so I had a look at your list, and it seems that the mons in this list only counter some Zygarde sets, while merely check others. I'll go through each one you listed in detail.

- Landorus-T - it's only a mere check to some sets. It can only come in about once or twice and gets easily chipped down because it doesn't have any reliable recovery, especially if it's up against a Choice Band variant. SubCoil variants also risk getting hit by Glare and giving Zygarde momentum, while in return Lando gets crippled and loses a lot of staying power.
- Clefable - one of the best tools you can use to dispose of Zygarde. While Choice Band sets are somewhat troublesome for Clefable to deal with, it does come with reliable recovery in the form of Soft-Boiled, and Unaware walls Coil/DD sets. In a way, it counters some sets while merely checking others. Unfortunately, it should be noted that Unaware sets will lose to Toxic. Some Zygarde sets try to tech for Clefable and similar ones by running Z-Iron Tail.
- Tangrowth - another standout means of dealing with Zygarde. Completely no-sells Thousand Arrows thanks to bulk but again, it still loses to Toxic. Z-Outrage is another problem for Tangrowth, but that set has fallen off a lot because it provides no means to deal with Clefable, one of its strongest checks/counters.
- Tapu Bulu - Bulk Up sets beat Zygarde one-on-one. Swords Dance sets are also a good tool for getting rid of Coil variants because you'll be able to outdo Zygarde's defense boosts. But then again, some Zygarde sets will try to tech for Bulu by running Z-Iron Tail.

Also, the problem with Zygarde here is not the fact that the checks/counters listed here are actually good mons in OU, it's the fact that Zygarde suffers from "counter of the week" syndrome. The sheer versatility and movepool that Zygarde provides makes it really hard to check/counter on paper, because you can't tell what set the Zygarde is running until too late (although it can be possible to deduce the set based on the team makeup, for example if you see a Toxapex, it's likely to be a Substitute variant). Several checks/counters have been used along the course of the tier history, such as fast Ice Beam Mew, defensive Choice Scarf Lando and Curse Mega Scizor - and now the latest counter is Tangrowth. But time and time again, a new set rises in popularity, designed to deal with its counters. This time around, some people are running RestTalk sets to try and stall out Tangrowth, as well as the aforementioned Toxic.

And while you do mention that the checks/counters are actually good in OU, the problem is that sometimes games will play themselves out because they're running a Zygarde set that your team can't check/counter. It becomes less "oh, I have Tangrowth, this should be easy" and more "oh god, I hope he's not a Toxic variant, otherwise I've lost..." and in a way Zygarde is basically impossible to counter with one Pokemon alone. Because of this sheer versatility, teams have had to resort to running 2 or 3 checks/counters to Zygarde, which severely constricts teambuilding even if the Pokemon are good, and that still doesn't cover all the sets. In a way it's quite similar to the Mega Metagross suspect back in early SM, where Mega Metagross was just so dang versatile and you can't tell its moves until too late. This again, meant you had to bring 2 or 3 mons just to deal with it.


I actually see the same happening. If Zygarde leaves, Heatran loses a switch-in, and will probably end up defining the tier. As a consequence, Ash-Greninja usage will probably rise as well, and if it gets too much for OU to handle then they'll probably both get suspected. Garchomp usage will also probably rise because that thing can come in on Firium variants or standard trapper variants, but it still has trouble switching in on a Steelium Z. Now that I mention it, I kinda see specially defensive Landorus-T becoming a thing...to check Heatran...
I wish to explain much more in depth upon my reasonings.
I can definitely understand why the mons i listed are not true counters. personally throughout my time playing have not had any issues with too many of zygardes sets. I also understand that Zygarde from time to time can run Iron tail to deal with Bulu. Looking back on it however, the only real set that i think looks really good on Zygarde at the moment is the sub-coil + toxic set which can in most circumstances deal with all of the above mons except clefable and landorus ( assuming it is healthy ). That alone however is not enough to sway my opinion to ban it. It is versatile i agree however, it can easily be scouted for its set. If Zygarde however decides to run Iron Tail it misses out on Outrage which can leave it liable to getting checked or countered by non-bulu checks/counters.

+2 252+ Atk Zygarde Corkscrew Crash (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Tangrowth: 227-268 (56.3 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Corkscrew Crash (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-Therian: 209-247 (54.7 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

If it runs coil without E-speed, its situation can potentially be worse being able to be KOed by many more mons than i had listed that are common on teams. Being a ground/dragon in this case leaves it susceptible to any mon carrying ice beam and moonblast ( being 2HKOed most of the time in case of moonblast ). Also even if it runs toxic ( which i think it should ) mons like Tangrowth still beat it one on one as the tangrowth will either force it out or out damage it with HP ice or force zygarde to sub to 25% leaving it vulnerable to another team member to deal with it later.

Dragon dance sets are dealt with by the mons i mentioned as well as some that was also mentioned by you such as mew and Curse Scizor.

In terms of teambuilding constriction, i disagree. It does not restrict teambuillding any more than mons like Greninja and Heatran. Yes it is something considered on a team when one is built but many mons that counter others also deal with Zygarde in tandom. Bulu ( AV or spdef) deals with Ash-gren and zygarde without iron tail, and tangrowth with assault vest is in a similar boat. Landorus is just good for its sheer versatility and also counters most zygarde sets anyway with hp ice meant to win 1v1s with other landorus. Same deal with most of the mons. Generally not many teams invest 2 or 3 mons on a team with the sole purpose of defeating Zygarde like was done with Naganadel. For Ash-Gren, what if it started running gunk shot in place spikes? then bulu would not be a good mon to use and a player would be under this circumstance be forced to run toxapex, gastrodon, or equivalent to prevent the form change which in my opinion does not sound fun seeing as those two work better on certain playstyles. Mentality such as being "forced" to run a specific amount of mons without option is what constricts teambuilding. with Zygarde the two or three options that you have are most of the time just there. Heatran can do this much more potentially especially if zygarde leaves the game.

Also regarding rest-talk....I do see why it could be an issue but if you run sleep talk and rest as well as toxic and thousand arrows, than you still risk being forced out by other mons like Greninja via a switch and when zygarde comes in next it will still have to potentially waste a turn or two in order to do anything productive. Also Taunt invalidates most utility sets. Tangrowth gets poisoned by Zygarde, on the HP ice, Zygarde rests to full tanking another hp ice or switches, if Zygarde rests, Zygarde has to switch out at 50%-58%, Tang will switch out as well setting off regenerator to come back in later. If Tang gets hit on the switch it would be unfortunate Yes, but tang + lando can deal with Zygarde well due to regen.
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