immigration topic

figure that maybe people wanna talk about immigration, it's been a major debate topic in the USA and Europe for the past few/several years and I don't think that there's been discussion on it in DD for a while now

so go for it

or if y'all really need a conversation starter, I might be able to puke something up for you

I live in a state full of illegal immigrants, and I'm honestly in favor of a stricter stance.

Less so in any kind of immigrants for me personally and more emphasis on the illegal ones. I went to high school with kids who were obviously illegal and who still didn't know a word of English come graduation time, despite 4 full years of ESL (English as a Second Language).

We cater too much to people. At least learn the language. Think any other country would give you that same luxury? Doubt it.

Building a wall, however, is a pathetic idea and a total waste of money, time, etc, all that.

seriously though they come here, illegally, and the government gives them free stuff. (A non-racist phrase) They are like leeches, and people pity them. that whole "children being ripped out of their parents arms" isn't even a problem. those parents give up their children and live lives that are " happier" because of it. I have a solution tho but we don't need to get in to that :)

Calzone407 said:

seriously though they come here, illegally, and the government gives them free stuff. (A non-racist phrase) They are like leeches, and people pity them. that whole "children being ripped out of their parents arms" isn't even a problem. those parents give up their children and live lives that are " happier" because of it. I have a solution tho but we don't need to get in to that :)

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Oh, but pray tell what is your solution. I can only hope it's a plausible one or at least one that makes sense.

Also, what "free" stuff do they give them. I'd like to see some examples of these and all. Plus, they don't get the benefits of citizenship so they'll miss out on some things. Course, I'm not for illegal immigration at all, which is why hearing some solutions to this problem would aid in this. Unless this is just to rant on it or rant on the opposite side in which case....what's the point of this?

Calzone407 said:

seriously though they come here, illegally, and the government gives them free stuff. (A non-racist phrase) They are like leeches, and people pity them. that whole "children being ripped out of their parents arms" isn't even a problem. those parents give up their children and live lives that are " happier" because of it. I have a solution tho but we don't need to get in to that :)

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I too would love to hear this solution.

As for myself, I'm actually for a strict immigration policy which probably surprises people, but not in the same way as your typical white-nationalist conservative. I am all for policing who is let past your borders and keeping your population as safe as you can, but there's no reason to treat people fleeing terrible places as criminals or lesser beings like some people are inclined to.

Yes, you can detain illegal immigrants. Yes you can take your time to investigate them. No you can't separate parents and children, keep people like cages and otherwise dehumanise and abuse them. You don't need to put immigrants up at the Ritz, but they shouldn't be in prisons or zoos either. Stick them in comfortable and clean, bare bones dorms while they get processed. On top of that, don't just have them sitting their rotting while that process is undergone. Use the time it takes to process immigrants to prepare them for new lives in your country, have mandatory English lessons for anyone old enough to learn and mandatory schooling in general for minors, provide the opportunity to study skills that will improve immigrants' employment options and make it possible for them to get in contact with the organisations they need to find work and otherwise arrange to be productive members of the society they're joining.

The way things are now are stacked against immigrants and a lot of the bad reputation they get stems from those bad odds.

gimmepie said:

I too would love to hear this solution.

As for myself, I'm actually for a strict immigration policy which probably surprises people, but not in the same way as your typical white-nationalist conservative. I am all for policing who is let past your borders and keeping your population as safe as you can, but there's no reason to treat people fleeing terrible places as criminals or lesser beings like some people are inclined to.

Yes, you can detain illegal immigrants. Yes you can take your time to investigate them. No you can't separate parents and children, keep people like cages and otherwise dehumanise and abuse them. You don't need to put immigrants up at the Ritz, but they shouldn't be in prisons or zoos either. Stick them in comfortable and clean, bare bones dorms while they get processed. On top of that, don't just have them sitting their rotting while that process is undergone. Use the time it takes to process immigrants to prepare them for new lives in your country, have mandatory English lessons for anyone old enough to learn and mandatory schooling in general for minors, provide the opportunity to study skills that will improve immigrants' employment options and make it possible for them to get in contact with the organisations they need to find work and otherwise arrange to be productive members of the society they're joining.

The way things are now are stacked against immigrants and a lot of the bad reputation they get stems from those bad odds.

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Do you know how long it would take to detain and investigate every single one like that? Who would pay for their bare bone bunkers, food, teachers, etc? Now you're forcing the public to pay to educate and house illegals.

Also, so then what's your level of investigation? Make it as nonthreatening as possible, like a summer camp or something?
Come on. This would never work in real life. Families get separated to detain and investigate because we simply can't do this fantasy world one by one you want.

And hey, don't want your family split up? Then apply legally. Hard for me to feel sorry for them when the legal option is right there too.

Enpatsu Shakugan said:

Do you know how long it would take to detain and investigate every single one like that? Who would pay for their bare bone bunkers, food, teachers, etc? Now you're forcing the public to pay to educate and house illegals.

Also, so then what's your level of investigation? Make it as nonthreatening as possible, like a summer camp or something?
Come on. This would never work in real life. Families get separated to detain and investigate because we simply can't do this fantasy world one by one you want.

And hey, don't want your family split up? Then apply legally. Hard for me to feel sorry for them when the legal option is right there too.

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Let's see... who has way more money than they actually need... if only there were some people like that. Oh wait, there's a bunch of rich people who pay hardly anything in tax. There's also weed taxation, raising taxes on tobacco and liquor and cutting the excessive amount of spending on the military.
I don't think it needs to be some sort of super special summer camp, I don't care if people are sleeping on four to a room in bunks or sharing communal spaces, it just needs to be better than cages or prisons.

Waiting for the US' (and other places) ludicrously long wait times to legally enter a country tends to mean dying for a lot of the people illegally entering the country. Personally, I think human life trumps money. But since compassion for immigrants isn't a strong suit, how about we talk about the jobs doing this would create for people already in the country? There would be people benefiting from the actual construction/renovation required to actually set processing centres up, staff positions like teachers/english tutors etc etc. It'd be a good way to cut the unemployment rate some too.

I can't speak as to the exact level of investigation, I'm far from an expert on that sort of thing, but I see little reason to change the level of investigation in swapping to a more compassionate system.

gimmepie said:

Let's see... who has way more money than they actually need... if only there were some people like that. Oh wait, there's a bunch of rich people who pay hardly anything in tax. There's also weed taxation, raising taxes on tobacco and liquor and cutting the excessive amount of spending on the military.
I don't think it needs to be some sort of super special summer camp, I don't care if people are sleeping on four to a room in bunks or sharing communal spaces, it just needs to be better than cages or prisons.

Waiting for the US' (and other places) ludicrously long wait times to legally enter a country tends to mean dying for a lot of the people illegally entering the country. Personally, I think human life trumps money. But since compassion for immigrants isn't a strong suit, how about we talk about the jobs doing this would create for people already in the country? There would be people benefiting from the actual construction/renovation required to actually set processing centres up, staff positions like teachers/english tutors etc etc. It'd be a good way to cut the unemployment rate some too.

I can't speak as to the exact level of investigation, I'm far from an expert on that sort of thing, but I see little reason to change the level of investigation in swapping to a more compassionate system.

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So if you were successful enough to be rich, you'd appreciate being forced to pay for illegals of your country that has no relevance in your life?

I absolutely abhor that socialist BS mindset.

Vragon2.0 said:

Oh, but pray tell what is your solution. I can only hope it's a plausible one or at least one that makes sense.

Also, what "free" stuff do they give them. I'd like to see some examples of these and all. Plus, they don't get the benefits of citizenship so they'll miss out on some things. Course, I'm not for illegal immigration at all, which is why hearing some solutions to this problem would aid in this. Unless this is just to rant on it or rant on the opposite side in which case....what's the point of this?

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I live in California so I?m in one of, if not ground zero of the Immigration debate and I can tell you point blank that Immigrants, be it from Mexico&Central America, Asia or elsewhere in the world, DO NOT ASSIMILATE. Meaning they basically bring their country with them and set up shop in little enclaves and slowly transform what was once English speaking into Spanish, Japanese, Chinese(pick a dialect), Punjabi and other languages. It?s exactly what they have in Europe where there are enclaves of Muslim communities that Police don?t go into. Why? They don?t because it?s too dangerous and the native rule of law doesn?t apply there but Sharia law instead. In other words, they?re imposing their customs, language and beliefs onto native citizens as opposed to them adopting the customs, language and beliefs of the native citizenry. In other words, they don?t ASSIMILATE.

As for free stuff, try K-12 Public Education, In-State Tuition for College(I bet legal US Cutizens in other states really like that one...), Drivers Licenses(which were given to Illegal Immigrants prior to them doing a CYA law where the DMV could issue them to said individuals. Now with the Federal ?Real ID? law going into effect, I now have to go to the DMV and get an updated Drivers License if I want to go on a plane and it?s all because some CA DMV workers skirted State(if not Federal(have to check that)) Law because our old Drivers Licenses were as good as citizenship(because to get them you have to prove you?re a US Citizen). Think I?m lying on this? A DMV employee told my father first hand why he had to update his Drivers License to this Real ID version. No one will ever get held accountable for it either), Work permits and more.

My stance on this is zero tolerance. If you?re here in the USA illegally, you?re by definition in civil violation(via Arizona vs. United States 2012 Supreme Court decision. I?d legislatively raise it to a Felony but that?s another topic for another time) and the punishment is deportation and being barred from re-entry(which people do not adhere to since there are numerous cases of illegal immigrants being deported more than once). To discourage people from coming here, I?d go after the people who employ them and exploit them(Agriculture industry especially, but also Meat Packing, Warehouse and Hospitality industry). By going after the Employers, it cuts off the Economic magnet(the main driving force for people coming here, not seeking asylum like those on the left want you to believe). To make matters worse, a lot of people send their money back home as opposed to spending it here domestically(Mexico in particular is a huge beneficiary of this).

Furthermore, if their country is such a corrupt and inhospitable place, why can?t they stay there and do something about it? Wouldn?t it be better for their country to be reformed than to make the long and dangerous trek to come to the USA(wherein people are abused by the smugglers and cartels who take the risk of bringing them here).

My solution is as follows. We will accept x amount of people from certain countries each year(aka the lottery system that the GOP wants to eliminate). However to be eligible, you must register with our local Embassy, learn and be certified fluent in English, learn our Civics and fundamental laws and demonstrate you have some skills to offer the country(which falls in line with the merit based system they want to implement). Those with skills would get a higher priority number or better chance to make it as opposed to those without any skills. If an unskilled person has to wait years to come here, so be it.

Why is everyone so against immigration it's literally just people moving from one place to some place else? In simplest terms.

Enpatsu Shakugan said:

So if you were successful enough to be rich, you'd appreciate being forced to pay for illegals of your country that has no relevance in your life?

I absolutely abhor that socialist BS mindset.

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I do what I can for people now and I'm dirt poor. I'd gladly pay out the nose to make life easier for people fleeing awful places if I had the kind of money these people do. It would literally have no impact on their lives. The world would be a better place if more people had a "socialist BS mindset". Just think, a word without a massive disparity in power, where people like immigrants can actually get the help they need without having to deal with jittery, money-hungry conservatives. Yes please.

Joker said:

Why is everyone so against immigration it's literally just people moving from one place to some place else? In simplest terms.

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Well, tribalist instincts still lingering in our brain construction in combination with white nationalism, conservative agendas and rampant propaganda and misinformation as well as just a general lack of compassion for fellow human beings.

Joker said:

Why is everyone so against immigration it's literally just people moving from one place to some place else? In simplest terms.

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Immigration destroys one's own culture if it's left uncontrolled.

gimmepie said:

I do what I can for people now and I'm dirt poor. I'd gladly pay out the nose to make life easier for people fleeing awful places if I had the kind of money these people do. It would literally have no impact on their lives. The world would be a better place if more people had a "socialist BS mindset". Just think, a word without a massive disparity in power, where people like immigrants can actually get the help they need without having to deal with jittery, money-hungry conservatives. Yes please.



Well, tribalist instincts still lingering in our brain construction in combination with white nationalism, conservative agendas and rampant propaganda and misinformation as well as just a general lack of compassion for fellow human beings.

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Ah, I love it. The truly misinformed trying to pass that blame onto others. You're so textbook it hurts.
I'm very glad you don't get to vote here for my country, is all I'll say.

Enpatsu Shakugan said:

Immigration destroys one's cultural if it's left uncontrolled.

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You mean your culture that is literally constructed almost entirely out of chunks that were lifted from immigrant cultures going back as far as the first colonials to move there? You're right, I can see how the incredibly unique culture of the US would be drastically harmed by... allowing the thing that lead to that culture existing in the first place.

Ah, I love it. The truly misinformed trying to pass that onto others. You're so textbook it hurts.
I'm very glad you don't get to vote here, is all I'll say.

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You know what, I originally had something pretty nasty written here but that's kind of shitty. I'll just say that I think a reexamination of both your political views and your attitude in general would probably go a long way.

gimmepie said:

I do what I can for people now and I'm dirt poor. I'd gladly pay out the nose to make life easier for people fleeing awful places if I had the kind of money these people do. It would literally have no impact on their lives. The world would be a better place if more people had a "socialist BS mindset". Just think, a word without a massive disparity in power, where people like immigrants can actually get the help they need without having to deal with jittery, money-hungry conservatives. Yes please.



Well, tribalist instincts still lingering in our brain construction in combination with white nationalism, conservative agendas and rampant propaganda and misinformation as well as just a general lack of compassion for fellow human beings.

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gimmepie said:

You mean your culture that is literally constructed almost entirely out of chunks that were lifted from immigrant cultures going back as far as the first colonials to move there? You're right, I can see how the incredibly unique culture of the US would be drastically harmed by... allowing the thing that lead to that culture existing in the first place.

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I'm not defending American culture, shallow as it is, and as hypocritical as it is. You're actually correct about it on all fronts, and we, the general white population, already pushed out the true natives hundreds of years prior.

But I'm saying in general, this is what happens with uncontrolled immigration. If white people started swarming Kenya, it wouldn't remain everything that is culturally Kenya very long. Same thing.

But being in a state right at the forefront of illegal immigration, from my experience alone, I'd love to see stricter regulations. Obviously the plan from the last several decades isn't working.

And believe it or not, I'm not wholly against your supposed idea either, but I firmly believe it could never work in real life. It doesn't work that way; the general populace just isn't calm and collected like that, and most times, you give someone an inch, they take a yard. There are so many exploitable loopholes in the idea, the expenses alone, etc.

Yet at the same time, I'm VERY against the notion of coddling anyone, let alone illegals, which I know is definitely the leftist mindset. Treating them guests and putting all that effort, all for people who broke the law. Sorry, that is just stupid to me. And to expect the same treatment anywhere else is laughable, so they shouldn't expect it here either.

I don't even view the problem as immigration itself, and more-so illegal immigration. Legal is controlled, and, as you wrote, America has never had its own culture apart from assimilation, so I don't see any real issue, but illegal variants, especially where I live is out of control. And I want something done about it. And they shouldn't be catered to.

Enpatsu Shakugan said:

I'm not defending American culture, shallow as it is, and as hypocritical as it is. You're actually correct about it on all fronts, and we, the general white population, already pushed out the true natives hundreds of years prior.

But I'm saying in general, this is what happens with uncontrolled immigration. If white people started swarming Kenya, it wouldn't remain everything that is culturally Kenya very long. Same thing.

But being in a state right at the forefront of illegal immigration, from my experience alone, I'd love to see stricter regulations. Obviously the plan from the last several decades isn't working.

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I think there's a big difference between the US and Kenya. Kenya is largely still populated by its native people, so they have a far more distinct culture/cultures than the US. The US' culture isn't really it's own thing, it's just a hodgepodge collection of cultures from different places all dumped into the confines of one set of borders. On top of that, immigration only destroys cultures when immigrants take over the old one, that rarely if ever happens in modern society because we're well past the days of imperial colonialism. A culture isn't destroyed if there's still people there practising that culture... which again isn't really that applicable to the US which has very little in the way of a distinct culture anyway.

Personally, while I appreciate that this is at least a lot more reasoned than the vast majority of anti-immigrant positions I've heard, I still think it's just a cop-out to defend an outdated, ingrained tribalist mindset that humanity as a whole needs to move on from.

Is a culture changing via immigration/demographic changes really such a bad thing though?

Gimme's idea in his first post doesn't sound so bad to me either. Unless I'm misunderstanding his post, it doesn't sound so much to me like he's proposing "coddling illegals" as it is "we caught you, now we're going to make you immigrate legally but we're actually going to do useful shit while we're at it like teach you English".

Building more immigration centers, particularly along the TexMex border, sounds good to me too.

CodeHelmet said:

Furthermore, if their country is such a corrupt and inhospitable place, why can?t they stay there and do something about it? Wouldn?t it be better for their country to be reformed than to make the long and dangerous trek to come to the USA

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While reformation of their country/countries would be the ideal solution, that's also a lot easier said than done, and not something to expect everyone to have the ability to make meaningful change in their country.

Like, as an example, everybody knows that the US has it's share of problems, but I really don't think that anyone should expect some dumb, useless sack of shit like me to actually have the capability to do anything about it.

I think standards should be relaxed but enforcement should be stronger.

Enpatsu Shakugan said:

Immigration destroys one's own culture if it's left uncontrolled.

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But can a nation not be multicultural? I'd personally love to learn about all sorts of different cultures, foods, and traditions!

Joker said:

But can a nation not be multicultural? I'd personally love to learn about all sorts of different cultures, foods, and traditions!

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It's not so simple. It can exist, hell Europe I can say is an example. However, with Multiculturalism, just like its counterpart, there are pros and cons. One of the cons I think is a big thing is how divided the groups tend to be. Makes it hard for things to happen and leads to a lot of political infighting as well as other stuff, if not animosity to others that do things you don't want.

Joker said:

But can a nation not be multicultural? I'd personally love to learn about all sorts of different cultures, foods, and traditions!

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This is going to be one of those answers that?s neither yes or no.

A nation that wants to thrive must be of one culture. That does not mean that the overarching culture can not be made from many cultures.