How do you feel about the smaller pokemon teams for the later female companions?

One thing that has become obvious as the show went on is the newer female companions don't get full teams anymore, in fact they barely capture pokemon to begin with.

Misty had over 10 pokemon if you count everything, but of course half her pokemon got screwed over and barely did anything during her run. Horsea never did anything, Starmie was dumped at the Gym only 60 eps into her run, Goldeen couldn't battle outside water, Togepi didn't battle, Psyduck was used for gag battles...so all she really had was Staryu, Poliwhirl/Toed and Corsola for regular battles. A lot of the time outside of Psyduck for humor we barely saw Misty's pokemon used for long periods of time.

May and Dawn are of course the last companions with full teams. May had 7 pokemon, and Dawn technically had 7 pokemon too but released Ambipom so she now only owns 6 pokemon. Overall though they generally had 7 pokemon and their pokes all get screentime in Contests or regular episodes.

After that Iris only had 4 pokemon as a main character (she caught Gible in a special), and that's it. Serena of course only has 3 pokemon. And now with the SM girls, they only have 1 pokemon each. It seems like all the later female companions barely have pokemon and barely capture anymore.

So how do you feel about this? If anything I think 4-5 pokemon is a good number for those without goals. Misty (and Brock) had way too many pokemon and 90% of the time the writers could barely give them focus or screentime. It probably didn't help that Misty/Brock barely battled in the OS outside a small handful of episodes. But I still think the newer female leads have too little pokemon. It makes them feel less like trainers and more like they just have pokemon as pets or companions. How do you feel?

precita said:

One thing that has become obvious as the show went on is the newer female companions don't get full teams anymore, in fact they barely capture pokemon to begin with.

Misty had over 10 pokemon if you count everything, but of course half her pokemon got screwed over and barely did anything during her run. Horsea never did anything, Starmie was dumped at the Gym only 60 eps into her run, Goldeen couldn't battle outside water, Togepi didn't battle, Psyduck was used for gag battles...so all she really had was Staryu, Poliwhirl/Toed and Corsola for regular battles. A lot of the time outside of Psyduck for humor we barely saw Misty's pokemon used for long periods of time.

May and Dawn are of course the last companions with full teams. May had 7 pokemon, and Dawn technically had 7 pokemon too but released Ambipom so she now only owns 6 pokemon. Overall though they generally had 7 pokemon and their pokes all get screentime in Contests or regular episodes.

After that Iris only had 4 pokemon as a main character (she caught Gible in a special), and that's it. Serena of course only has 3 pokemon. And now with the SM girls, they only have 1 pokemon each. It seems like all the later female companions barely have pokemon and barely capture anymore.

So how do you feel about this? If anything I think 4-5 pokemon is a good number for those without goals. Misty (and Brock) had way too many pokemon and 90% of the time the writers could barely give them focus or screentime. It probably didn't help that Misty/Brock barely battled in the OS outside a small handful of episodes. But I still think the newer female leads have too little pokemon. It makes them feel less like trainers and more like they just have pokemon as pets or companions. How do you feel?

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Misty and Brock were technically sidekicks or supplemental characters not meant to overshadow the main protagonist in Ash. As such, their goals were relatively subjective(leaving much up to each individual's interpretation. Even Ash's goal of Pokemon Master fits the narrative) or didn't have anything to do with battling like in Brock's case. Misty and Brock got a lot of Pokemon because they were 1) Gym Leaders and 2) Traveled with Ash for a LONG time.

May and Dawn were instrumental in expanding the Pokemon Coordinator arc and seeing as it had Pokemon Battles, it required that they get a full team so that they'd have a diverse group to choose from for each contest they took part in. Furthermore, May has traveled to four regions(two with Ash(Hoenn and Kanto) and met up with him in Sinnoh. Went to Johto after Kanto Grand Festival) while Dawn has gone to three(Initially Sinnoh but later went to Hoenn before meeting up with Ash in Unova). Its debatable about which Coordinator was better but suffice to say their goals required that they catch Pokemon.

Iris was the start of the Franchise's downfall. First off, she wasn't a Gym Leader in the Anime(despite being so in Pokemon White) but her goal of being a Dragon Master was just like Misty's goal of being a Water Master. Subjective in nature but it implied catching Dragon Type Pokemon. For much of the series, Iris had one Dragon Type in Axew. It wasn't until she catches Dragonite that Iris truly started taking her Dragon Master role seriously. Unfortunately, it was 91 Episodes into the series before Dragonite was caught. Prior to that she had caught Emolga all the way back in Episode 26(and its a Pikachu clone). Much of the catching went to Ash, which is to be expected but you'd expect the Female protagonist to push harder on her goal and I blame the writers for that. It wasn't until her exclusive special(that was Japanese only sadly) at the end of the series that showed her getting another Dragon Type in Gible while visiting Blackthorn City in Johto.

With Serena, her goal was to be Kalos Queen as a Pokemon Performer. As a Performer, there was no battling involved. As such, the necessity to get a full team wasn't as paramount since each of her Pokemon performed on stage with her. Granted I do agree that she could have caught more Pokemon but just opted not to use them to perform(like she could have caught a Ryhorn for a Rider Pokemon). By having Serena catching only two Pokemon, one can argue that it was done deliberately so that Serena could return to the series in a long term capacity(aka another series or a substantial arc like Alexa during the Decalore Islands part of Black&White). It hasn't happened yet so we won't know until that day comes.

I think where the bulk of your ire comes from is the Sun&Moon series. Sun&Moon has 6 protagonists, which is far too many. Furthermore, the whole scope of the series is completely different than that of the games. Also look at each Female Protagonists purpose/goal. Lillie's was to overcome her fear. Now that its done, what is it? Mallow's is like Brock's or a non-battling one in wanting to make her Restaurant #1. That basically throws her into the background by default despite having Leader of the group qualities and exposing her lack of Pokemon in Episode 39. You'd think that they'd try to correct that issue a few Episodes later like in Episode 42 while they were at Professor Oak's Lab(she could have caught some Wild Kanto Pokemon). Lana is in the same boat as Mallow to some respect as her goal isn't battling related but rather to meet all Water Type Pokemon through Popplio's Balloon. Lana has shown some interesting traits the past few Episodes though and I think they might have her transition or change her goal to that of a Pokemon Performer(*cough* like Serena *cough*) or Pokemon Coordinator. Performer route is basically written for her by having a performer Pokemon and she loves people who "show off", particularly those with muscles/physiques.

TLDR: Its not hard to understand why the Female protagonists have gotten neglected. Just look at their goal/purpose within the series.

CodeHelmet said:

Misty and Brock were technically sidekicks or supplemental characters not meant to overshadow the main protagonist in Ash. As such, their goals were relatively subjective(leaving much up to each individual's interpretation. Even Ash's goal of Pokemon Master fits the narrative) or didn't have anything to do with battling like in Brock's case. Misty and Brock got a lot of Pokemon because they were 1) Gym Leaders and 2) Traveled with Ash for a LONG time.

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Well Brock only had 3 pokemon a time in AG and DP, I was mainly speaking of the OS.

As for Misty she really had too many pokemon. In Kanto alone she had Staryu, Starmie, Goldeen, Psyduck, Horsea, Togepi. Yet the writers got rid of Horsea without it doing anything, and Starmie was dumped early in her run and never used again. Then she gets Poliwag and doesn't capture anything for the entire span of Johto till the tail-end with Corsola. And since the writers largely just focused on Psyduck for most of Kanto, the rest of her pokemon didn't get much focus outside a small handful of eps.

In her case they overloaded her with pokemon at the start, then realized they weren't going to do much or anything with half of them, so they stopped. And this is not even counting the pokemon they gave her after she left the cast, like Gyarados, Azurill, Luvdisc, etc. I really think they should have limited her to 4-5 pokemon at most for her entire run, and even that is probably being generous.

Serena, Mallow, and Lana's goals don't involve battling, and Lillie is a rookie trainer (even in the source material, she never catches more than one Pokemon). Lillie will likely get more Pokemon in the strong likelihood that we'll see her again after this generation.

I was looking for someone to bring this up, since I do feel the female companions are getting much smaller teams than ever before, especially ever since Serena ended her main cast run with a disappointing team of only three Pokemon, and the SM girls all still not having a second Pokemon after 60+ episodes.

As Code mentioned, it is noted that Serena and the SM girls' goals don't involve battling, which may explain their extremely small teams. The last female to even have a full team was Dawn, and since both her and May did Pokemon Contests which involved battling, it was understandable. But the fact we're now getting female companions which barely battle or have goals unrelated to battling really worries me because it means that they're getting bad treatment by the writers just because they don't want said females doing a goal that clashes with what Ash is doing. 8th Gen needs to either bring back Pokemon Contests or some side-goal that involves battling so that the female companion can catch more Pokemon and not get in Ash's way at the same time. It's going to be a big problem especially with all the feminist pushing happening in entertainment right now.

Hikamaru said:

I was looking for someone to bring this up, since I do feel the female companions are getting much smaller teams than ever before, especially ever since Serena ended her main cast run with a disappointing team of only three Pokemon, and the SM girls all still not having a second Pokemon after 60+ episodes.

As Code mentioned, it is noted that Serena and the SM girls' goals don't involve battling, which may explain their extremely small teams. The last female to even have a full team was Dawn, and since both her and May did Pokemon Contests which involved battling, it was understandable. But the fact we're now getting female companions which barely battle or have goals unrelated to battling really worries me because it means that they're getting bad treatment by the writers just because they don't want said females doing a goal that clashes with what Ash is doing. 8th Gen needs to either bring back Pokemon Contests or some side-goal that involves battling so that the female companion can catch more Pokemon and not get in Ash's way at the same time. It's going to be a big problem especially with all the feminist pushing happening in entertainment right now.

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When May joined Ash in Hoenn, Ash thought May was going to challenge the Gyms just like he was. That was because Ash had never heard of Pokemon Contests(despite the fact he had already been to Johto where they take place. Only reason they were brought up in Hoenn is because they were new to the games). May respectfully declined due to her dislike for Pokemon but her dislike changes when she discovers Pokemon contests. The reason I bring that up is because Ash has already demonstrated that he'd go on a journey with another travel companion with the same goal/objective. Why they haven't done that yet, much less with a Female protagonist, is beyond me. I mean they could do this in Sun and Moon with Lillie but she's so far behind thanks to her fear arc and the fact that they're doing Voltron with Ultra Beasts that it just doesn't seem to be in the cards for this generation.

That's why I'd like to see Sun and Moon end already. That way we can get to Generation 8 and either a brand new protagonist(perhaps Female), or Ash again with a Female Protagonist with the same goal. A selfish dream of mine is to bring back Serena for that role but odds are her time in the spotlight is long done.

CodeHelmet said:

When May joined Ash in Hoenn, Ash thought May was going to challenge the Gyms just like he was. That was because Ash had never heard of Pokemon Contests(despite the fact he had already been to Johto where they take place. Only reason they were brought up in Hoenn is because they were new to the games). May respectfully declined due to her dislike for Pokemon but her dislike changes when she discovers Pokemon contests. The reason I bring that up is because Ash has already demonstrated that he'd go on a journey with another travel companion with the same goal/objective. Why they haven't done that yet, much less with a Female protagonist, is beyond me. I mean they could do this in Sun and Moon with Lillie but she's so far behind thanks to her fear arc and the fact that they're doing Voltron with Ultra Beasts that it just doesn't seem to be in the cards for this generation.

That's why I'd like to see Sun and Moon end already. That way we can get to Generation 8 and either a brand new protagonist(perhaps Female), or Ash again with a Female Protagonist with the same goal. A selfish dream of mine is to bring back Serena for that role but odds are her time in the spotlight is long done.

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Of course her time in the spotlight is done. Gen 6 is over. There's no need to advertise Gen 6 Pokemon anymore. Especially not a Gen 6 starter.

Rad Dudesman said:

Of course her time in the spotlight is done. Gen 6 is over. There's no need to advertise Gen 6 Pokemon anymore. Especially not a Gen 6 starter.

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If her time in the spotlight is done, then why did her English VA sing "I choose you" during the ending credits in Movie#20? Might not mean anything at all but the mere fact her VA is still doing things post-XY hints at a meaningful return as I see it.

CodeHelmet said:

If her time in the spotlight is done, then why did her English VA sing "I choose you" during the ending credits in Movie#20? Might not mean anything at all but the mere fact her VA is still doing things post-XY hints at a meaningful return as I see it.

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1. That's the English VA, not the original Japanese one,

2. Haven's been with the anime since Season 16. Serena wasn't her first role, her first roles was a CoTD in BW and Concordia (one of N's "sisters). Also not the last, since she voiced Ash's Rockruff prior to its evolution into Lycanroc.

3. Haven is also a Broadway stage actress and has some skill in singing. She also sings the dub's new opening theme "Under the Alolan Moon".

Hikamaru said:

I was looking for someone to bring this up, since I do feel the female companions are getting much smaller teams than ever before, especially ever since Serena ended her main cast run with a disappointing team of only three Pokemon, and the SM girls all still not having a second Pokemon after 60+ episodes.

As Code mentioned, it is noted that Serena and the SM girls' goals don't involve battling, which may explain their extremely small teams. The last female to even have a full team was Dawn, and since both her and May did Pokemon Contests which involved battling, it was understandable. But the fact we're now getting female companions which barely battle or have goals unrelated to battling really worries me because it means that they're getting bad treatment by the writers just because they don't want said females doing a goal that clashes with what Ash is doing. 8th Gen needs to either bring back Pokemon Contests or some side-goal that involves battling so that the female companion can catch more Pokemon and not get in Ash's way at the same time. It's going to be a big problem especially with all the feminist pushing happening in entertainment right now.

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Thought I'd show you something that you might find interesting. Episode 65 of Sun&Moon is slated to air tomorrow and odds are nothing of note(such as a new Pokemon acquisition or Evolution) are teased in the preview trailers. I could be wrong but odds are in my favor. Furthermore, it got me thinking on just how bad Sun&Moon is with regards to protagonist progression with regards to Pokemon Teams, Evolutions and overall progress through the first 65 Episodes of each series/generation. For Kanto&Johto, I'm going to count them as Generation 1 and 2 respectively so as to coincide with the games. Therefore Hoenn is Generation 3, Sinnoh is Generation 4 and so on. Evolutions are in parenthesis.


Generation 1(Kanto):
Ash: 8 Gym Badges(earns 8th badge in Japanese Episode 65, English Episode 63) with 10 Pokemon caught(Pikachu, Caterpie(Butterfree), Pidgeotto, Charmander(Charizard), Squirtle, Bulbasaur, Krabby, Muk, Primeape and Tauros(x 30)). Released Butterfree and Primeape(to train).
Misty: Catches Psyduck and Horsea to go along with Goldeen, Staryu and Starmie. Also acquires Togepi.
Brock: Catches Zubat to go along with Onix and Geodude. Acquires Vulpix via Suzie.

Generation 2(Johto):
Ash: 3 Gym Badges, caught 6 Pokemon(Heracross, Chikorita(Bayleef), Totodile, Cyndaquil, Noctowl, Beedrill), released Charizard(to train), Beedrill(to Casey).
Misty: Poliwag evolves into Poliwhirl
Brock: Zubat evolves into Golbat

Generation 3(Hoenn):
Ash: 4 Gym Badges, caught 4 Pokemon(Taillow, Treecko, Corphish Torkoal). Treecko evolves in Episode 66(so close)
May: 2 Contest Ribbons, caught 3 Pokemon(Torchic, Wurmple(Beautifly), Skitty)
Brock: Caught Lotad(Lombre) and Mudkip
Max: Nothing(hence useless fourth wheel)

Generation 4(Sinnoh):
Ash: 2 Gym Badges(get's 3rd Badge in Episode 67), caught 4 Pokemon(Starly(Staravia), Turtwig, Chimchar(via Paul) and Gliscor). Acquires Buizel via Trade(Aipom) with Dawn.
Dawn: 1 Contest Ribbon. Catches 4 Pokemon(Piplup, Buneary, Pachirisu and Buizel). Trades Buizel for Aipom(Ambipom)
Brock: Gets an Egg(hatches into Happiny). Bonsly evolves into Sudowoodo

Generation 5(Unova):
Ash: 5 Gym Badges. Catches Pidove(Tranquill), Oshawott, Tepig, Snivy, Sewaddle, Palpitoad, Roggenrola(Boldore) and Scraggy.
Iris: Catches Emolga(has Axew and Excadrill). Doesn't catch Dragonite until Episode 89...
Cilan: Catches Dwebble(Crustle) and Stunfisk.

Generation 6(Kalos):
Ash: 4 Gym Badges(gets 5th Gym Badge in Episode 66 from Clemont). Catches 4 Pokemon(Froakie(Frogadier), Fletchling(Fletchinder), Hawlucha and Goomy(Goodra)).
Serena: No Princess Keys, Catches 2 Pokemon(Fenekin(Braixen) and Pancham)
Clemont: Catches Chespin, Dedenne(given to Bonnie) and Luxio(Luxray).
Bonnie: Takes care of Dedenne while doing "You're a keeper" gag(more than what Max did).

Generation 7(Sun&Moon):
Ash: 2 Grand Trials, 4 Z-Crystals(Normalium, Electrium, Rockium and Grassium). Catches 4 Pokemon(Rowlett, Rockruff(Lycanroc), Litten(Torracat) and Charjabug(given to Sophocles)).
Lillie: Catches Snowy/Snowball
Mallow: Bounsweet evolves into Steenee
Lana: Acquires Waterium-Z
Kiawe: Catches Alolan Marowak
Sophocles: Gets Charjabug from Ash

Based on that, you'd think Unova would get more love than what it does based on how much progression is squeezed into those first 65 Episodes. Real eye-raiser was Sinnoh in that Ash took forever to get Badges. However, what this really illustrates is the abject lackluster progression of the Sun&Moon cast outside of Ash. Two catches(including Lillie's Alolan Vulpix), 1 Evolution and 1 Z-Crystal through 65 Episodes. Someone tell me again why they're there in the first place? I mean you can't deny its a very slow start but Kalos wasn't this bad when it came to the other protagonists. Serena alone matches the Sun&Moon cast progression. That's how bad Sun&Moon has been so far.

I think they generally lowered the amount of captures because the girls don't have any real battle oriented goals and the fact that the writers themselves can't juggle too many pokemon on the cast and give them all focus. As said Misty/Brock seemingly had too many pokemon in the Kanto/Johto era, and for characters who rarely battled and had no real ongoing goals to follow, it's why we didn't see them used much. It's also why Brock was limited down to 3 pokemon each when he returned in Hoenn and DP.

It depends on the goal.

Lana may only have one Pokémon but that one Pokémon is all she needs to 'travel the oceans in a bubble'. Mallow may have one Pokémon but Steenee is more than sufficient to help in the restaurant (too many cooks spoil the broth). Serena had three Pokémon but that's all she needed (despite my problems with how she's written, one strength of her character was that she was shown to have bonded with her Pokémon because they were on screen more).

Come to think of it, I much prefer how Sun and Moon is handling these smaller teams, because with the smaller teams means more exposure. Last I checked it was a Pokémon anime. Am I expecting vast amounts of development for each Pokémon? No, Pokémon has never been about meaningful messages since the end of Kanto. Am I expecting, well Pokémon? You betcha.

Smaller teams means they can be on screen more. Larger rosters mean they stay confined to their spherical prisons. Look what happened to Ash rotation team in Best Wishes - if you weren't a starter or Pikachu you were shafted.

The Sun and Moon girls are NOT girl companions. They are boring classmates, that's it. Dont compare them with the rest of the series girl comapnions

janejane6178 said:

The Sun and Moon girls are NOT girl companions. They are boring classmates, that's it. Dont compare them with the rest of the series girl comapnions

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They are characters in the franchise and are subject to the same praise/criticisms to previous characters

Does having more pokemon help in their goals? if not then I don't see why the SM girls need more than 3 pokemon. But at this point I want someone in the SM crew to catch a new pokemon.

Frozocrone said:

They are characters in the franchise and are subject to the same praise/criticisms to previous characters

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They dont have the charm the previous girls had. They dont really travel with Ash, their "goals" are so dull and boring etc.
I hope we get a PROPER ONE main girl again in the next gen.

Throwing the guys aside(that being Ash, Kiawe and Sophocles), the girls have caught 1 Pokemon(Lillie's Alolan Vulpix) and 1 Evolution(Mallow's Bounsweet -> Steenee). Lana getting a Z-Crystal is hard to quantify or relate to other series with regards to progression but one can argue its equivalent to a Contest Ribbon or, in Serena's case, her haircut moment. Through 65 Episodes, SM progression for the female protagonists is an embarrassment and even though their goals aren't battling related, they're Pokemon Trainers first and foremost. Lillie is a new Trainer and one that got off to a late start thanks to her "Fear arc" but Lana is a Water Pokemon Trainer(where's the Water Pokemon catches?). Same deal with Mallow as a Grass Pokemon Trainer(which they highlighted in Episode 39 as a major problem for her by having just 1 Pokemon. Its been 25+ Episodes... where's that next Pokemon?!!!).

The guys aren't much better. Throwing Ash aside(he's the main character to begin with), Kiawe has caught just 1 Pokemon(Alolan Marowak). Sophocles... has done literally nothing. Ash gave him that Charjabug, hence why is he even in the series? Whomever wrote the series bible(aka overall plot of the series) needs to get the can(aka fired).

janejane6178 said:

The Sun and Moon girls are NOT girl companions. They are boring classmates, that's it. Dont compare them with the rest of the series girl comapnions

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I agree.
Only Lillie might count as a girl companion as she is the main Pokegirl out of all in S&M. Lana and Mallow aren't girl companions nor Pokegirls like Dawn or Serena.

I don't think the number of Pokemon they catch is really relevant. What matters is

1. Are they fleshed out, interesting characters.

Actually just the one thing. Nevermind the list.

gimmepie said:

I don't think the number of Pokemon they catch is really relevant. What matters is

1. Are they fleshed out, interesting characters.

Actually just the one thing. Nevermind the list.

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Pokemon they catch ought to matter when the catch phrase that started the Franchise is "Gotta catch em all". If protagonists aren't catching Pokemon, then what is the point? How can you call it Pokemon when they arent even doing the core aspects of what made the Franchise what it is? Unova gets ripped to shreds for a lot of things but you can't criticize it for a lack of captures(even if it was mostly Ash doing it). Heck they highlighted the "lack of Pokemon" in Episode 39 when Mallow's Steenee was snatched by Team Rocket. With no other Pokemon in her arsenal, Mallow was completely helpless. Wouldn't you think that she, as a character, would try to remedy that problem as soon as possible? Same deal if Lana's Popplio(which she lost in Episode 16) or Lillie's Vulpix were taken. What would they do? I suppose Lana has her Lapras that she uses to go Fishing but it's a Rider Pokemon and as for Lillie, she's in the same boat as Mallow. There have been numerous chances for the Female protagonists to catch more Pokemon but these characters haven't bothered and it's an utter disgrace(character goal be damned).

However if you want me to answer your question, at least two characters have been outright neglected or are complete and utter trash: Mallow and Sophocles. Lana and Kiawe aren't much better thanks in large part to owning Z-Rings and crystals but even they're growing stale and boring by the Episode in my eyes. As for Lillie, she had some moments and the Aether arc was decent but frankly was used too soon or not in the manner in which I would have done it(would have based it more like the games with a demented Lusamine). Furthermore, her "Fear arc" isn't over. First it was touching Pokemon and now it's a fear of heights. Really? It's facepalm bad and why Sun and Moon is rightfully getting ripped to shreds for not being Pokemon.