The PokéCommunity Forums Off Topic Discussions Discussions & Debates
Discussion Russia and America

Discussions & Debates Have a seat at Discussions & Debates for in-depth discussions, extended or serious conversations, and current events. From world news to talks on life, growing up, relationships, and issues in society, this is the place to be. Come be a knight.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1    
Old 2 Weeks Ago (12:11 PM).
Esper's Avatar
Esper Esper is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: California
Posts: 10,468
So, about all the talk going around about Russia meddling with American government. What do you think happened? Did Russia get involves in the election? Are the connections between Russian government/business with various members of the Trump team credible? If they are, what should be done? Should there be investigations regardless?
Reply With Quote

Relevant Advertising!

  #2    
Old 2 Weeks Ago (1:12 AM).
Hands's Avatar
Hands Hands is offline
Discord Moderoid
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Age: 26
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,115
Anything that starves off the war with Russia that the Americans have wanted for decades is a good thing. The world can't survive that nuclear war. Even if Trump and Putin are both awful, disgusting people, their greed might just save us all.
Reply With Quote
  #3    
Old 2 Weeks Ago (2:45 PM).
gimmepie's Avatar
gimmepie gimmepie is offline
From The New World
PokéCommunity Daily Staff
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Australia
Age: 21
Gender: Male
Nature: Mild
Posts: 14,356
I man, it's pretty clear that Russia was interfering with the election. At this point though I'm not sure what can be done. I think that the best way to go about it really is to take the most passive "retaliation" available and simply remove people who were elected in a falsified/influenced election from office.

Obviously nothing that will provoke violence or anything is acceptable though. The world doesn't need that.
__________________
"We have to change our way of thinking if we
really want to change the future."





Reply With Quote
  #4    
Old 2 Weeks Ago (5:25 PM).
BadSheep's Avatar
BadSheep BadSheep is offline
I'm baaaaaaaaad
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: somewhere (duh)
Age: 17
Gender: Male
Nature: Lax
Posts: 3,166
How is interfering with the election defined?
__________________

Signature made by Nah
Reply With Quote
  #5    
Old 2 Weeks Ago (9:15 PM).
gimmepie's Avatar
gimmepie gimmepie is offline
From The New World
PokéCommunity Daily Staff
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Australia
Age: 21
Gender: Male
Nature: Mild
Posts: 14,356
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadSheep View Post
How is interfering with the election defined?
Propaganda, business ties to people involved in campaigns and outright hacking all qualify.
__________________
"We have to change our way of thinking if we
really want to change the future."





Reply With Quote
  #6    
Old 2 Weeks Ago (9:22 PM).
Kanzler's Avatar
Kanzler Kanzler is offline
naughty biscotti
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Toronto
Gender: Male
Nature: Relaxed
Posts: 5,863
From a geopolitical perspective, what's to lose from fragmenting Russia? It seems like they are a constant thorn in the side of the West, and I'm not too sure if the consequences would be too negative if they were politically neutralized.
Reply With Quote
  #7    
Old 2 Weeks Ago (12:23 AM).
Hands's Avatar
Hands Hands is offline
Discord Moderoid
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Age: 26
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,115
Quote:
Originally Posted by gimmepie View Post
Propaganda, business ties to people involved in campaigns and outright hacking all qualify.
https://wikileaks.org/cia-france-elections-2012/

Kinda like this? America really has no grounds to complain that Russia might (although there is actually no evidence to back it) have hacked the DNC e mails and revealed their behaviour to the public. America has been ruining elections and countries for decades now.
Reply With Quote
  #8    
Old 2 Weeks Ago (5:28 AM).
gimmepie's Avatar
gimmepie gimmepie is offline
From The New World
PokéCommunity Daily Staff
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Australia
Age: 21
Gender: Male
Nature: Mild
Posts: 14,356
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands View Post
https://wikileaks.org/cia-france-elections-2012/

Kinda like this? America really has no grounds to complain that Russia might (although there is actually no evidence to back it) have hacked the DNC e mails and revealed their behaviour to the public. America has been ruining elections and countries for decades now.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the FBI confirm that Russia had indeed tampered with things? Also, the US having done the same thing in the past doesn't suddenly make it okay for other nations to do the same - even to the US. It's not acceptable for any nation to act as such.
__________________
"We have to change our way of thinking if we
really want to change the future."





Reply With Quote
  #9    
Old 2 Weeks Ago (5:31 AM).
Hands's Avatar
Hands Hands is offline
Discord Moderoid
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Age: 26
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,115
Quote:
Originally Posted by gimmepie View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the FBI confirm that Russia had indeed tampered with things? Also, the US having done the same thing in the past doesn't suddenly make it okay for other nations to do the same - even to the US. It's not acceptable for any nation to act as such.
The report filed by the intelligence community gave an inconclusive verdict. The hacker his or her self was thought to be either Russian or Romanian but no solid links to the Russian authorities, services or Govt has been established.
Reply With Quote
  #10    
Old 2 Weeks Ago (5:34 AM).
gimmepie's Avatar
gimmepie gimmepie is offline
From The New World
PokéCommunity Daily Staff
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Australia
Age: 21
Gender: Male
Nature: Mild
Posts: 14,356
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands View Post
The report filed by the intelligence community gave an inconclusive verdict. The hacker his or her self was thought to be either Russian or Romanian but no solid links to the Russian authorities, services or Govt has been established.
So essentially, we can be pretty damn sure the Russian's were involved somehow but can't really prove it. This doesn't invalidate the business connections to Trump's campaign/cabinet or the propaganda output from the country.
__________________
"We have to change our way of thinking if we
really want to change the future."





Reply With Quote
  #11    
Old 2 Weeks Ago (5:39 AM).
Hands's Avatar
Hands Hands is offline
Discord Moderoid
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Age: 26
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,115
Quote:
Originally Posted by gimmepie View Post
So essentially, we can be pretty damn sure the Russian's were involved somehow but can't really prove it. This doesn't invalidate the business connections to Trump's campaign/cabinet or the propaganda output from the country.
I'm not sure how we can be sure the Russian govt was involved simply because the hacker was thought to be a Russian or Romanian native. That's an insane jump to make. When a Frenchman commits a crime in Britain we don't use that as evidence that the French Govt is an organised Crime gang orchestrating crime on British shores.
Reply With Quote
  #12    
Old 2 Weeks Ago (5:46 AM).
gimmepie's Avatar
gimmepie gimmepie is offline
From The New World
PokéCommunity Daily Staff
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Australia
Age: 21
Gender: Male
Nature: Mild
Posts: 14,356
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands View Post
I'm not sure how we can be sure the Russian govt was involved simply because the hacker was thought to be a Russian or Romanian native. That's an insane jump to make. When a Frenchman commits a crime in Britain we don't use that as evidence that the French Govt is an organised Crime gang orchestrating crime on British shores.
Would you accept "considering the nature of the attack, there is a notable increase the probability that Russia tampered with the election"?
__________________
"We have to change our way of thinking if we
really want to change the future."





Reply With Quote
  #13    
Old 2 Weeks Ago (5:58 AM).
Hands's Avatar
Hands Hands is offline
Discord Moderoid
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Age: 26
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,115
Quote:
Originally Posted by gimmepie View Post
Would you accept "considering the nature of the attack, there is a notable increase the probability that Russia tampered with the election"?
Well possibly, but there's little to no serious evidence of this. Given the amount of Electoral interference the Americans have ran this past decade you'd think they'd be able to easily prove this if it was the case.
Reply With Quote
  #14    
Old 2 Weeks Ago (8:54 AM).
Kanzler's Avatar
Kanzler Kanzler is offline
naughty biscotti
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Toronto
Gender: Male
Nature: Relaxed
Posts: 5,863
I dunno, Russia is just too darn edgy regarding the US and Europe for my liking. They interfere more than they cooperate.
Reply With Quote
  #15    
Old 2 Weeks Ago (10:30 AM).
Esper's Avatar
Esper Esper is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: California
Posts: 10,468
Does anyone think that that the Trump team actively sought help from Russia during the election? The different ties (meetings and such) between Trump's people and various Russian officials, pro-Russian Ukrainians, and Russian business interests is pretty well known now, right. Manafort, Page, Flynn, Kushner, Sessions, others I'm probably forgetting.

I don't want to jump to conspiracy theories, but the theory which says that Putin and co. meddled so that the US would lift sanctions over Ukraine and allow an Exxon deal to go through is pretty hard to ignore when the top US diplomat is the former Exxon CEO, the Trump team specifically asked for the Republican party platform to change to a softer stance on Russia, and basically every day there is more evidence backing up the Buzzfeed pee-pee papers.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #16    
Old 1 Week Ago (4:06 AM).
Grinny55's Avatar
Grinny55 Grinny55 is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Gender: Female
Posts: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands View Post
Anything that starves off the war with Russia that the Americans have wanted for decades is a good thing. The world can't survive that nuclear war. Even if Trump and Putin are both awful, disgusting people, their greed might just save us all.
completely agree. Nuclear war is the worst thing that could happen. I found info at https://ecotestgroup.com/press/blog/different-uses-applications-radiation-portal-monitors/ that after collapse of the Soviet Union special Radiation Portal Monitors devices were implemented to prevent the ingredients used to make destructive weapons from falling into the wrong hands. I think that nowadays the safety of the whole world depends on such devices.
Reply With Quote
  #17    
Old 1 Week Ago (7:10 AM).
Hands's Avatar
Hands Hands is offline
Discord Moderoid
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Age: 26
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper View Post
Does anyone think that that the Trump team actively sought help from Russia during the election? The different ties (meetings and such) between Trump's people and various Russian officials, pro-Russian Ukrainians, and Russian business interests is pretty well known now, right. Manafort, Page, Flynn, Kushner, Sessions, others I'm probably forgetting.

I don't want to jump to conspiracy theories, but the theory which says that Putin and co. meddled so that the US would lift sanctions over Ukraine and allow an Exxon deal to go through is pretty hard to ignore when the top US diplomat is the former Exxon CEO, the Trump team specifically asked for the Republican party platform to change to a softer stance on Russia, and basically every day there is more evidence backing up the Buzzfeed pee-pee papers.
Putin's people and Trump's people almost certainly worked out some kind of beneficial situation. Putin probably pushed for a drop of sanctions and for a non aggressor pact and in return offered Trump some kind of financial or resource based trade off. Perhaps gas or coal or something.
Reply With Quote
  #18    
Old 1 Week Ago (10:16 AM).
Kanzler's Avatar
Kanzler Kanzler is offline
naughty biscotti
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Toronto
Gender: Male
Nature: Relaxed
Posts: 5,863
Who's ever said that America's wanted a war with Russia?
Reply With Quote
  #19    
Old 1 Week Ago (11:37 PM).
Hands's Avatar
Hands Hands is offline
Discord Moderoid
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Age: 26
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanzler View Post
Who's ever said that America's wanted a war with Russia?
Have you somehow missed the past 72 years of Russo-American relations and history?
Reply With Quote
  #20    
Old 1 Week Ago (9:46 PM).
Kanzler's Avatar
Kanzler Kanzler is offline
naughty biscotti
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Toronto
Gender: Male
Nature: Relaxed
Posts: 5,863
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands View Post
Have you somehow missed the past 72 years of Russo-American relations and history?
You mean the Cold War where both sides desparately didn't want to get in a war with one another?
Reply With Quote
  #21    
Old 1 Week Ago (11:52 PM).
Hands's Avatar
Hands Hands is offline
Discord Moderoid
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Age: 26
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanzler View Post
You mean the Cold War where both sides desparately didn't want to get in a war with one another?
I'm talking about the scores of proxy wars the US started against the Soviet Union and it's allies. From Cuba to Nam to Korea to Ethiopia to Nicaragua and dozens more.

I'm talking about the outrageous sanctions the US levies against anyone they see as pro Russian for things the US routinely does.

I'm talking about the US deploying troops in Poland and Germany to stoke tensions within Europe against Russia. The hundreds of tanks, armored vehicles, weapon platforms and trucks too.

I'm talking about Hillary Clinton's rhetoric in the election that she would run no fly zones (which she legally wouldnt of been able to anyway) against the Russians

I'm talking about the US sending Special forces units to Lithuania and stationing them on the Russian border.

I'm talking about the US openly backing Neo Nazi groups in the Ukraine and helping them overthrow a democratically elected govt.

I could go on, but the US has had 70+ years of this crap against Russia (Kennedy, Carter and Johnson being the only presidents to actively oppose conflict with the reds through policy and actual behavior)

Russia of course isn't flawless or blameless in any of this, but they've done far more to resist war with America than America has with Russia.
Reply With Quote
  #22    
Old 1 Week Ago (9:02 AM).
Kanzler's Avatar
Kanzler Kanzler is offline
naughty biscotti
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Toronto
Gender: Male
Nature: Relaxed
Posts: 5,863
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands View Post
I'm talking about the scores of proxy wars the US started against the Soviet Union and it's allies. From Cuba to Nam to Korea to Ethiopia to Nicaragua and dozens more.

I'm talking about the outrageous sanctions the US levies against anyone they see as pro Russian for things the US routinely does.

I'm talking about the US deploying troops in Poland and Germany to stoke tensions within Europe against Russia. The hundreds of tanks, armored vehicles, weapon platforms and trucks too.

I'm talking about Hillary Clinton's rhetoric in the election that she would run no fly zones (which she legally wouldnt of been able to anyway) against the Russians

I'm talking about the US sending Special forces units to Lithuania and stationing them on the Russian border.

I'm talking about the US openly backing Neo Nazi groups in the Ukraine and helping them overthrow a democratically elected govt.

I could go on, but the US has had 70+ years of this crap against Russia (Kennedy, Carter and Johnson being the only presidents to actively oppose conflict with the reds through policy and actual behavior)

Russia of course isn't flawless or blameless in any of this, but they've done far more to resist war with America than America has with Russia.
Where are you getting your information from?
Reply With Quote
  #23    
Old 1 Week Ago (1:15 AM). Edited 1 Week Ago by Ivysaur.
Ivysaur's Avatar
Ivysaur Ivysaur is offline
You found a heart!
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Madrid
Age: 26
Gender: Male
Posts: 20,609
Send a message via Skype™ to Ivysaur
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands View Post
I'm talking about the scores of proxy wars the US started against the Soviet Union and it's allies. From Cuba to Nam to Korea to Ethiopia to Nicaragua and dozens more.

I'm talking about the outrageous sanctions the US levies against anyone they see as pro Russian for things the US routinely does.

I'm talking about the US deploying troops in Poland and Germany to stoke tensions within Europe against Russia. The hundreds of tanks, armored vehicles, weapon platforms and trucks too.

I'm talking about Hillary Clinton's rhetoric in the election that she would run no fly zones (which she legally wouldnt of been able to anyway) against the Russians

I'm talking about the US sending Special forces units to Lithuania and stationing them on the Russian border.

I'm talking about the US openly backing Neo Nazi groups in the Ukraine and helping them overthrow a democratically elected govt.

I could go on, but the US has had 70+ years of this crap against Russia (Kennedy, Carter and Johnson being the only presidents to actively oppose conflict with the reds through policy and actual behavior)

Russia of course isn't flawless or blameless in any of this, but they've done far more to resist war with America than America has with Russia.
The troops in Poland and Germany were requested by Poland and Germany in order to defend themselves against Russia- they don't have fond memlories of Russian domination, mind you.

The no-fly zones Clinton suggested were in Syria, to stop the Syrian Government from murdering their own citizens. Why is that a provocation againt Russia?

The troops in Lithuania were requested by Lithuania, who is terrified of getting invaded again by Russia the way it was in the 1940s, either openly or through the back door, like when Russian troops invaded Ukraine. Again, they don't have fond memories of Russian domination- and they have seen many of their neighbours getting invaded by Russia in the past years (Georgia, Ukraine). In fact, fear of being invaded by Russia is precisely why Sweden has just reinstated the mandatory draft for teenagers and why Montenegro is applying to join NATO. It's pretty funny that apparently the US is "threatening" Russia and yet it's all the countries near Russia who are asking the US for help.

The neo-nazi line is a popular argument of Russian propaganda, but the Maidan revolution was about stopping the then president from ditcing a trade agreement with the EU in order to sign another with Russia. Most of the country had really bad memories of Russian domination, etc, and didn't want to depend on them anymore, they'd ratehr be close to the EU.

I don't know, maybe you should stop getting your news from Kremlin-sponsored media like RT, Sputnik or Breitbart.

Russia is an authoritarian dictatorship that censors media, manipulates elections, murders dissenters, uses the Government to enrich Putin and his henchmen, threatens their neighbours and sometimes outright attacks them, openly flouting international law. All of that painting itself as a victim. Russia is nothing short of WWI Germany or other militaristic dictatorships.
__________________
Oh, we've made a mistake
We've lost our minds
We've lost our memory
Oh, what's it gonna take?
There's always something else
So occupy yourself



Yes kids, once upon a time I was an admin
Reply With Quote
  #24    
Old 1 Week Ago (12:16 AM).
Hands's Avatar
Hands Hands is offline
Discord Moderoid
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Age: 26
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivysaur View Post
The troops in Poland and Germany were requested by Poland and Germany in order to defend themselves against Russia- they don't have fond memlories of Russian domination, mind you.
Russia hasn't threatened Germany or Poland. Regardless of whether the Americans were asked (though I've seen little evidence of this) or not, a massive build up of forces from an international aggressor is still aggression. In fact, the only open threat from Russia was in response to the increase in US activity in the region.

Quote:
The no-fly zones Clinton suggested were in Syria, to stop the Syrian Government from murdering their own citizens. Why is that a provocation againt Russia?
It was to effect Russian aircraft too. It's also rich coming from America considering how many non combatants they've killed with air strikes in the past 5 years. Neither Russia or America should be there, but it is not for America to tell Russia who can and cannot fly in another country's air space where the Russians were invited (since you see this as justification in Europe) and the Americans were not.

Quote:
The troops in Lithuania were requested by Lithuania, who is terrified of getting invaded again by Russia the way it was in the 1940s, either openly or through the back door, like when Russian troops invaded Ukraine.
The same Lithuania that was occupied by the Polish? The same Lithuania that was invaded by Germany in the same decade? The same Lithuania that Russia has not officially threatened? This is just beating around the bush trying to avoid addressing the threat Russia feels from the Americans. Again, Assad invited Russia into Syria, does that make the presence of Russian forces there ok? Does it justify Russian hardware being set up to 'defend' the government there? If we're going by your logic on this then I'm kind of curious as to where your double standards inevitably begin.

Quote:
Again, they don't have fond memories of Russian domination- and they have seen many of their neighbours getting invaded by Russia in the past years (Georgia, Ukraine).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_invasions#2000.E2.80.93present

If by "many" you mean the only two you listed, then sure.

Only Ukraine wasn't a typical invasion, it was the securing of Russian Strategic interests during a civil war. It's really no different to the Libyan civil war where the British SAS were sent in to British oil fields to secure the assets there and evacuate workers where applicable.

So really you have Georgia, which Russia did invade. Nearly a decade ago. It's fairly clear you're deliberately removing context of complicated international situations that took years to come to a head to paint the 'many' (read - two) actions Russia has taken over the past 25 years (Since the fall of the USSR) as nothing more than imperial expansionism. Whilst defending countries that have been actively involved in actual imperial expansionism in the middle east pretty much consistently for the past 15 years. It's disingenuous.

Quote:
In fact, fear of being invaded by Russia is precisely why Sweden has just reinstated the mandatory draft for teenagers and why Montenegro is applying to join NATO. It's pretty funny that apparently the US is "threatening" Russia and yet it's all the countries near Russia who are asking the US for help.
Russia hasn't threatened either Montenegro or Sweden. You'll notice this is a recurring theme here. In that Russia hasn't actively threatened any of these countries you paint as incapable babies who need the US to protect them from this phantom of the Soviet Union. I could say I feel threatened by you and ask another member to come onto my profile and defend me by antagonizing you on every post. That doesn't mean you actually did threaten me or justify my actions. Although a similar scenario is your entire point.

Quote:
The neo-nazi line is a popular argument of Russian propaganda
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26468720

I didn't realise the British Broadcasting Corporation were Russian Propagandists.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/nov/13/ukraine-far-right-fascism-mps

Or the Guardian

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2014/04/how-fascist-is-svoboda/#

Or the Spectator

I mean I could go on but there's only so many news outlets in the West that are notable enough to link and I think you get the point that, once again, you're being disingenuous.

Quote:
but the Maidan revolution was about stopping the then president from ditcing a trade agreement with the EU in order to sign another with Russia. Most of the country had really bad memories of Russian domination, etc, and didn't want to depend on them anymore, they'd ratehr be close to the EU.
That must justify Fascism, ultra nationalism, antisemitism, racism and all manner of other far right nasties that the Ukrainians find themselves muddled up in.

Quote:
I don't know, maybe you should stop getting your news from Kremlin-sponsored media like RT, Sputnik or Breitbart.
Wow. This is genuinely one of the worst and most lazy statements I've ever replied to here.

I have never read Sputnik (I had to google them before typing this) and I have rarely read RT (though they're really no worse than CNN, FOX or Sky when it comes to vested interests). I've only browsed Brietbart in preparation whilst debating against the alt-right. Regardless of any of this and how outright wrong your statement was, you had zero evidence to make it. It's just a lazy dig. Either reply to my comments within reality or don't reply to me at all.

Quote:
Russia is an authoritarian dictatorship that censors media, manipulates elections, murders dissenters, uses the Government to enrich Putin and his henchmen, threatens their neighbours and sometimes outright attacks them, openly flouting international law. All of that painting itself as a victim. Russia is nothing short of WWI Germany or other militaristic dictatorships.
That really isn't far off from America either. Not that it matters if one is a nastier place than the other. We're talking about international aggression, and only one side has deployed masses of troops to the borders of the other.
Reply With Quote
Reply
Quick Reply

Sponsored Links
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Minimum Characters Per Post: 25

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 10:54 AM.