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GameFreak Used Reversal!

Fifth Generation Black, White, Black 2, White 2

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  #1    
Old March 4th, 2017 (6:08 AM).
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Remaking an older one! C: It was one of my absolute favourite questions back in the day because it's just such an interesting topic. Legit how could have everything changed if it all played out differently?????

So imagine that it's not 2017. No, instead it's... the year Red and Blue were released to the English speaking public! But the catch? It isn't Red and Blue. It's Black and White. ;) How do you think the games would be received? Would the games do better than Red/Blue, if the graphics were downgraded, and everything else stayed the same (other than features?) Do you think that people would love Unova just as much, or more? What would be your thoughts on it if these were the originals? What about the sequels? Imagine B2W2 were the second games to follow on. Would these become the fan favourites without any new Pokemon? How would Pokemon itself have changed? Would've the complaints about Pokemon been less? Share any and all thoughts on this!
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Old March 17th, 2017 (8:54 AM).
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I think they would have been pretty awesome back in the day. Static, uncolored graphics, sure, but there was actually something to call a plot; it was based on New York rather than Japanese areas; it had legendary dragons - well it even had legendaries taking up space in the plot! Something gen 1 hadn't. Mewtwo was just a detail, basically. Even if it had only had the Unova mons and skipped the "previous" generations, it would have been pretty decent.

... Now I want to see a de-vamp hack of BW haha <3
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Old March 17th, 2017 (9:51 AM).
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Hmmm....this is a good question, and it actually comes up a lot regarding other franchises, with a general argument that nostalgia for older titles is what prevents people from appreciating newer ones. There is some merit to that argument, because the first instalment in any long-running IP always sets a benchmark standard for quality. Comparisons are inevitable, and often later instalments are found lacking because they don't deviate enough from earlier titles or just don't measure up to them in the eyes of the fans...as is the case with some fans with Gen V, which was designed to be a soft reboot of the games in the first place.

At its core, Gen V is still Pokemon. all the things that made R/B/Y popular are still there, and the concept is still just as solid, and at the time it would have still been a totally new and unique thing. They would have been just as well received if they were the first instalments in the franchise on that basis alone, no question about it. I think that New York setting would have made it even more appealing to Westerners, in fact. JRPGs weren't quite as huge back then as they are now, so that more familiar setting would probably have been more appealing. Probably.

I'm not so sure B2W2 would have been as well-received, though...without the inclusion of old Pokemon and some of the features like the PWT - which also wouldn't have been in there, I'm assuming - there is very little to differentiate them from the first games, so it would have essentially been a straight retread...and Pokemon wasn't quite well-established enough back then to be able to get away with that. Johto added far more to the franchise than B2W2 did. Not to mention critics were actually critical of games back then and they probably would have slammed it for being BW with two or three new areas. The story wouldn't have been enough to save it from that, I don't think. Cutpaste sequels weren't a thing back then.

Buuuuuut. That said. It's very difficult to gauge, because since Gen V Game Freak has been pushing its NPC-centric storytelling even more, and it's been getting generally more positive reception for that - Sun/Moon get a lot of praise for their plot and characterisation (I have no idea why, but eh) so, by this point, if we'd started with BW, the games could be significantly more developed in the story department by this point, because - presumably - Game Freak would have built on that more and more with each generation, the way they have been trying to do since Gen V. Just a possibility. If B2W2 didn't tank the series, by now we could have Pokemon titles with detailed, original plots and a well-developed cast. Hard to say at this point when we've not had that yet. Give it another generation or two and see how it goes.

Target audience is a thing to consider, too. BW have the same target demographic as RBY on paper, but they were clearly designed for older fans who had grown up playing the series. I say BW would have been just as well received back then, but not by the same audience, because its intended audience was significantly younger back then. Having them as the first games in the series could very well have changed Pokemon's target audience significantly: there was already plenty of controversy surrounding Pokemon at the time of its release, with the added hiccups of the mature themes presented in BW's story, I highly doubt Nintendo could have gotten away with marketing this as a children's series.

Having BW as the first games in the series would have changed Pokemon dramatically, I think. I think the series owes a lot of its popularity to its target demographic, and frankly I just can't see BW being marketed as games for young children if they were the first instalments. Given how little Pokemon has changed over the years, the suggests one of two things to me - it would have changed A LOT over the years between now and then to become something significantly different, or it would be long dead by now because of other mature and well-received JRPG series like Final Fantasy; once the novelty of the gameplay wore off, that would have been it. But I think BW would have been just as well received - if not more so - if they were the first games in the series.
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Old March 17th, 2017 (3:40 PM).
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People are going to talk about how original floating ice creams are and floating magnets are so unoriginal.
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Old March 18th, 2017 (12:37 PM).
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The point is not that an ice cream can't be inspiration for a pokémon. It's how they work with this inspiration. They simply draw an ice cream and gave it a derpy face. A derpy face!

Just take HootHoot, that is based on a clock. Its design is much better.

Of course there will always be people liking it. I wouldn't be surprised if Vanillish is more popular among kids than grown up fans, for example.

Fifth generation is not a bad generation, whatsoever. What's cool about Pokémon is that they have a big variety, so there are Pokémon that some people will like, and Pokémon that this same people won't like, but someone else will. Even Dunsparce has its fans.

But if fifth generation was the first one, something we might take in account is that its Pokémon wouldn't look the same at all. Because of Game Boy graphics, Game Freaks had to make Pokémon simple and with symbolism. They wouldn't have as much details as they actually have, and maybe, and only maybe, younger fans would prefer newer generations, that would probably have more complex designs, and that would make part of their childhood, be their first season to watch, be their first game to play, etc...

That's what I think. I would be glad to hear what other people think.
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Old March 19th, 2017 (4:43 AM).
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Guys what would have been the mascot of Pokemon if not Pikachu then? Emolga and Minccino certainly don't deserve it... Oshawott's just a starter so that won't work. Scraggy is too risky and Sandile is too... dull?

Hmm... I love the games but I don't think they could have produced a popular enough mascot for Pokemon as a whole. Minccino with Ash just feels weird. I feel like Axew would be the only legitimate replacement for Pikachu although not evolving would be a HUUUUGE shame. Kinda weird to think about actually. If there was no central Pokemon in the anime then I don't think the games would have been so popular. Without a central point for merchandise there's nothing that can really be done in terms of creating sales. Then you wonder... do the starters have enough star potential? Compared to generation two/generation one Pokemon that just stand out easily... Unova's don't as much. Snivy comes off as too rude I suppose for the top spot (compared to Bulbasaur who appears to be the wise choice in both anime and merch). Tepig is boriing in comparison to Charmander... and then you have Oshawott who easily outshines Squirtle but is that enough to make up for the other three?

AND THEN you consider the boxart. You'd basically have Emboar, Samurott and Serperior. In comparison to the original three I don't think they'd create enough interest. Emboar is super hated despite being super cool - it ain't no Charizard (and given Red was most popular... and Green never made it outside of Japan...) Makes you wonder whether Samurott would be enough to drive people crazy.

I just googled and this came up:


Dunno why it doesn't have Emboar but I don't think Samurott would get people excited. Maybe we'd have no choice and it'd have to be Pokemon Green and Pokemon Blue (Serp replacing the love people had for Charizard).

What do you guys think?

OH AND BLACK CITY/WHITE FOREST. How WOULD that work?
Quote:
Originally Posted by engineer View Post
I think they would have been pretty awesome back in the day. Static, uncolored graphics, sure, but there was actually something to call a plot; it was based on New York rather than Japanese areas; it had legendary dragons - well it even had legendaries taking up space in the plot! Something gen 1 hadn't. Mewtwo was just a detail, basically. Even if it had only had the Unova mons and skipped the "previous" generations, it would have been pretty decent.

... Now I want to see a de-vamp hack of BW haha <3
But then you kinda wonder whether the legendaries would have actually been AS involved... but assuming all the same Pokemon (and that the games weren't AS advanced as they are now - so the extra legendaries weren't involved in the plot etc) I dunnoo. I mean we'd still have the same base plot which'd beat TR easily but there probably wouldn't be as much legendary involvement... meaning legendaries probably wouldn't matter in future games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meyneth View Post
Hmmm....this is a good question, and it actually comes up a lot regarding other franchises, with a general argument that nostalgia for older titles is what prevents people from appreciating newer ones. There is some merit to that argument, because the first instalment in any long-running IP always sets a benchmark standard for quality. Comparisons are inevitable, and often later instalments are found lacking because they don't deviate enough from earlier titles or just don't measure up to them in the eyes of the fans...as is the case with some fans with Gen V, which was designed to be a soft reboot of the games in the first place.

At its core, Gen V is still Pokemon. all the things that made R/B/Y popular are still there, and the concept is still just as solid, and at the time it would have still been a totally new and unique thing. They would have been just as well received if they were the first instalments in the franchise on that basis alone, no question about it. I think that New York setting would have made it even more appealing to Westerners, in fact. JRPGs weren't quite as huge back then as they are now, so that more familiar setting would probably have been more appealing. Probably.

I'm not so sure B2W2 would have been as well-received, though...without the inclusion of old Pokemon and some of the features like the PWT - which also wouldn't have been in there, I'm assuming - there is very little to differentiate them from the first games, so it would have essentially been a straight retread...and Pokemon wasn't quite well-established enough back then to be able to get away with that. Johto added far more to the franchise than B2W2 did. Not to mention critics were actually critical of games back then and they probably would have slammed it for being BW with two or three new areas. The story wouldn't have been enough to save it from that, I don't think. Cutpaste sequels weren't a thing back then.

Buuuuuut. That said. It's very difficult to gauge, because since Gen V Game Freak has been pushing its NPC-centric storytelling even more, and it's been getting generally more positive reception for that - Sun/Moon get a lot of praise for their plot and characterisation (I have no idea why, but eh) so, by this point, if we'd started with BW, the games could be significantly more developed in the story department by this point, because - presumably - Game Freak would have built on that more and more with each generation, the way they have been trying to do since Gen V. Just a possibility. If B2W2 didn't tank the series, by now we could have Pokemon titles with detailed, original plots and a well-developed cast. Hard to say at this point when we've not had that yet. Give it another generation or two and see how it goes.

Target audience is a thing to consider, too. BW have the same target demographic as RBY on paper, but they were clearly designed for older fans who had grown up playing the series. I say BW would have been just as well received back then, but not by the same audience, because its intended audience was significantly younger back then. Having them as the first games in the series could very well have changed Pokemon's target audience significantly: there was already plenty of controversy surrounding Pokemon at the time of its release, with the added hiccups of the mature themes presented in BW's story, I highly doubt Nintendo could have gotten away with marketing this as a children's series.

Having BW as the first games in the series would have changed Pokemon dramatically, I think. I think the series owes a lot of its popularity to its target demographic, and frankly I just can't see BW being marketed as games for young children if they were the first instalments. Given how little Pokemon has changed over the years, the suggests one of two things to me - it would have changed A LOT over the years between now and then to become something significantly different, or it would be long dead by now because of other mature and well-received JRPG series like Final Fantasy; once the novelty of the gameplay wore off, that would have been it. But I think BW would have been just as well received - if not more so - if they were the first games in the series.
I agree, B2W2 would cause a huge problem for being a sequel. We'd have to include Kalos. So Kalos followed by B2W2... geographically and logically that doesn't make much sense. Unless we went from Unova to Kanto to Johto etc from there. That wouldn't have been too bad right? ...except for the fact that Kanto would have absolutely nothing compared to Kanto lmao

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gladion View Post
People are going to talk about how original floating ice creams are and floating magnets are so unoriginal.
But people already had the chance to complain about floating Magnets for maaanny years!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Piloswine View Post
The point is not that an ice cream can't be inspiration for a pokémon. It's how they work with this inspiration. They simply draw an ice cream and gave it a derpy face. A derpy face!

Just take HootHoot, that is based on a clock. Its design is much better.

Of course there will always be people liking it. I wouldn't be surprised if Vanillish is more popular among kids than grown up fans, for example.

Fifth generation is not a bad generation, whatsoever. What's cool about Pokémon is that they have a big variety, so there are Pokémon that some people will like, and Pokémon that this same people won't like, but someone else will. Even Dunsparce has its fans.

But if fifth generation was the first one, something we might take in account is that its Pokémon wouldn't look the same at all. Because of Game Boy graphics, Game Freaks had to make Pokémon simple and with symbolism. They wouldn't have as much details as they actually have, and maybe, and only maybe, younger fans would prefer newer generations, that would probably have more complex designs, and that would make part of their childhood, be their first season to watch, be their first game to play, etc...

That's what I think. I would be glad to hear what other people think.
Vanillish WOULD be popular but a lot of other Pokemon that we take for granted now wouldn't be. There's so many that would just be ignored because the designs are too complicated (I get what you're saying but still the concepts are a lot more complicated compared to the concepts in Kanto (which people hate for some reason). Genesect for example would be the new Mewtwo for sure though. Weird type design, ez Mewtwo.

Tornadus etc would be absolutely hated, I mean I find the designs dull now but in generation one people would just consider them a waste of space, esp if you can't get all of them.
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Old March 19th, 2017 (5:53 AM).
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A mascot from the fifth gen? I suppose thematically it WOULD be Emolga, although given that Zorua was one of the first Pokemon revealed from Gen V, it's possible that it could have been used...it's definitely a better choice than Emolga. Much as I hate Pokemon that are blatant furry bait

I don't see boxart being a problem - Reshiram and Zekrom would easily be appealing enough to make up for a lack of Charizard - although merchandise might be a bit of a bigger problem...although that's personal preference. If Snivy/Tepig/Oshawott were the first starters there would be nothing to compare them to, so they'd be fine. Imagining Genesect in the first movie in place of Mewtwo is pretty cool...Genesect's movie was absoutely TERRIBLE, and I was pretty annoyed by that because its lore is actually quite interesting, and it'd be easy to have that...given that the anime only looked at Reshiram/Zekrom for about 12 episodes.

Black City/White Forest could theoretically work via passwords...it was a little later on from RBY, but The Legend of Zelda: Oracle of Ages and Oracle of Seasons had a system like that, where if you finished one and entered the annoyingly long password you'd get you'd unlock additional extras in the second game. That could also work for Easy/Challenge mode in the sequels...or in BW itself, if it incorporated some of B2W2's features. I suppose they could have also worked via Link Cables instead of Wi-Fi, though. One additional person to the area for each new person you battle and/or trade with. It's definitely not beyond the technology of the time to include it in some form.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forever View Post
I agree, B2W2 would cause a huge problem for being a sequel. We'd have to include Kalos. So Kalos followed by B2W2... geographically and logically that doesn't make much sense. Unless we went from Unova to Kanto to Johto etc from there. That wouldn't have been too bad right? ...except for the fact that Kanto would have absolutely nothing compared to Kanto lmao
Well, Kalos is a massively undeveloped region, with lines of transport that never get utilised properly...being able to go to Unova postgame after Kalos would be pretty awesome, even if geographically it doesn't make a huge amount of sense. But there is no reason we couldn't have had that airfield in BW utilised...perhaps once you finished the game Skyla could give you a lift to Unova, or there could be a commercial flight service where you could battle trainers on the plane?

Or, better still, they could have expanded upon Unova in greater depth than they did with B2W2, which only had a few new areas. They could have expanded upon the fact that the region was sheathed in ice, and those other areas and Gym Leaders...B2W2 could have easily become like GSC in terms of the size of the area you could explore. The second generation is the only one to have included the previous region though, so theoretically an expanded second part of Unova for B2W2, or skipping over them entirely and jumping straight to Kalos, would have worked fine.
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Old March 19th, 2017 (5:52 PM).
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I never really remembered B/W for it's graphics, and I always preferred gen 4, so I don't think that's the main issue. Overall I think it would do better, with a few new pokemon, no item restrictions, reusable TMs, and just small improvements to make it a bit more accessible. Not to mention that back then, story driven games weren't all that common.
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Old March 20th, 2017 (1:54 AM).
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As far as the Pokemon go, Gen 1 has the advantage with the starters and the legends. Other than that the pokemon are pretty much equal quality, I think. I never understood why people got upset about an ice cream cone and a candle or even a dumpster. If Electrode or Muk were introduced in gen 5 they'd get demolished. If you don't like the inanimate objects... I mean rocks are their own type for God's sake.
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