Fanfiction Lounge

bobandbill · Oct 3, 2009

Arguing a point, if I may:

The games and manga state Pokemon don't fight in the wild. Humans makes them.

Going by the games (as I don't follow the manga) - I find it hard to agree that the games state that they don't fight in the wild. That seems to suggest they are at peace, or something like that, and will only fight each other in battles as well if controlled by their trainers? However, they do seem quite able to fight as they will attack trainers who walk in the grass or caves, etc, for one, and various Pokedex entries indicate that they do fight in the wild. As you've cited RBY/GSC many times before, let's look at... oh, say, Pidgeotto's dex entries:

Red/Blue: Very protective of its sprawling territorial area. This Pokémon will fiercely peck at any intruder.
Yellow: This Pokémon is full of vitality. It constantly flies around its large territory in search of prey.
Gold: It has outstanding vision. However high it flies, it is able to distinguish the movements of its prey.
Silver: It immobilizes its prey using well-developed claws, then carries the prey more then 60 miles to its nest.
Crystal: It slowly flies in a circular pattern, all the while keeping a sharp lookout for prey.

Territorial, pecks at intruders, immobilizes prey with it's claws... this all strongly suggests to me that they are willing to fight in the wild. It's not the only one - other bird Pokemon hunt for prey, Houndoom hunt in packs, etc. Look at Seviper/Zangoose for two Pokemon perfectly willing to battle each other without any trainer assistance, so to speak. There are also instances with Pokemon want to fight not when hunting prey or being territorial or the sort, as Tyrogue shows in his Crystal dex entry:

Crystal: To brush up on its fighting skills, it will challenge anyone. It has a very strong competitive spirit.

Or Mankey:

Red/Blue: Extremely quick to anger. It could be docile one moment then thrashing away the next instant.
Yellow: An agile Pokémon that lives in trees. It angers easily and will not hesitate to attack anything.
Gold: It's extremely ill-tempered. Groups of them will attack and handy target for no reason.

These show that they do fight in the wild, sometimes to the death to eat and survive and all. Yep, in the happy-go-lucky games no less.
From this I'm quite sure one could use these canon entries to take the view that the Pokemon obey the trainer due to respecting them or finding them a worthy opponent, and so forth, as others have mentioned above. The fact that there's such a thing as a happiness gauge for Pokemon (the longer you have them, and the more battles you win with them, they happier they get) which has existed since the 2nd gen also seems to back this up, IMO - and it's no minor feature with Pokemon like Golbat evolving if they are happy enough, and only then as well.

The gym leaders and badges act like an achievement - something the Pokemon seem to recognise and hence respect the trainer for. The fact that (as mentioned before), the games have the badges only affecting traded Pokemon rather than any Pokemon obtained directly by the trainer himself, suggests to me that seeing as the Pokemon is unlikely to trust you after being traded just like that, having those shows you are already a capable trainer. (Ignoring the whole reason why it is used in the games - so kids can't just trade over their level 100 Mewtwo to beat the game in a few hours without some consequences of this).

Pokemon I don't believe is cock-fighting as - yet again mentioned before! - the games advocate the growth of the Pokemon and friendship, and all that jazz - maybe more so now than before, but it was certainly evident in those games (moves like Return which don't depend on badges - you don't even need one for it to be a powerful move - and let's not forget other games like Colosseum and XD where there are no badges to 'brainwash' Pokemon or what-not- and only so many NPCs talk about being kind to your Pokemon, and working together with them such as the many workers with Machop/Machoke who can be found across the generations of games...) [/ramblingpost]

Redstar · Oct 3, 2009

Sparkling Dragon said:
We were arguing about whether there was a difference between sapience, sentience and self-awareness or not. And until Shrike went to bed not too long ago (which I should be doing too) I had backup. ;_;

It's software that lets you input music and lyrics, then churns them out for you. Kind of like the reverse of dictation software w/ melody. Try this one (hopefully the right link) for a good example of what can be done with it.

There's a difference, yes, which makes the terms in no way mutually applicable. Sentience is the only word that can be used, really.

Oh. I don't like music.

bobandbill said:
Arguing a point, if I may:
Going by the games (as I don't follow the manga) - I find it hard to agree that the games state that they don't fight in the wild. That seems to suggest they are at peace, or something like that, and will only fight each other in battles as well if controlled by their trainers? However, they do seem quite able to fight as they will attack trainers who walk in the grass or caves, etc, for one, and various Pokedex entries indicate that they do fight in the wild. As you've cited RBY/GSC many times before, let's look at... oh, say, Pidgeotto's dex entries:
Territorial, pecks at intruders, immobilizes prey with it's claws... this all strongly suggests to me that they are willing to fight in the wild. It's not the only one - other bird Pokemon hunt for prey, Houndoom hunt in packs, etc. Look at Seviper/Zangoose for two Pokemon perfectly willing to battle each other without any trainer assistance, so to speak. There are also instances with Pokemon want to fight not when hunting prey or being territorial or the sort, as Tyrogue shows in his Crystal dex entry:

Or Mankey:

These show that they do fight in the wild, sometimes to the death to eat and survive and all. Yep, in the happy-go-lucky games no less.
From this I'm quite sure one could use these canon entries to take the view that the Pokemon obey the trainer due to respecting them or finding them a worthy opponent, and so forth, as others have mentioned above. The fact that there's such a thing as a happiness gauge for Pokemon (the longer you have them, and the more battles you win with them, they happier they get) which has existed since the 2nd gen also seems to back this up, IMO - and it's no minor feature with Pokemon like Golbat evolving if they are happy enough, and only then as well.

There's a difference between hunting, defending territory, and just being hot-headed compared to battling. All are likely to end in death, whereas Pokemon battling has no purpose other than gaining money and so on. I can't imagine Pokemon battling each other for no reason. (Though play-fighting as childhood practice for survival later on is imaginable)

bobandbill said:
The gym leaders and badges act like an achievement - something the Pokemon seem to recognise and hence respect the trainer for. The fact that (as mentioned before), the games have the badges only affecting traded Pokemon rather than any Pokemon obtained directly by the trainer himself, suggests to me that seeing as the Pokemon is unlikely to trust you after being traded just like that, having those shows you are already a capable trainer. (Ignoring the whole reason why it is used in the games - so kids can't just trade over their level 100 Mewtwo to beat the game in a few hours without some consequences of this).

The gym badges also boost stats, which suggests some sort of magical or at least technological function. That leads me to believe they have nothing to do with trust or respect.

bobandbill said:
Pokemon I don't believe is cock-fighting as - yet again mentioned before! - the games advocate the growth of the Pokemon and friendship, and all that jazz - maybe more so now than before, but it was certainly evident in those games (moves like Return which don't depend on badges - you don't even need one for it to be a powerful move - and let's not forget other games like Colosseum and XD where there are no badges to 'brainwash' Pokemon or what-not- and only so many NPCs talk about being kind to your Pokemon, and working together with them such as the many workers with Machop/Machoke who can be found across the generations of games...) [/ramblingpost]

Friendship existed in first generation, albeit crudely. I don't particularly consider the friendship feature a defining factor, since dogs love humans unconditionally but they're also the products of generations of genetic slavery by killing certain dogs or preventing them to breed in favour of more timid ones. Pokemon can still "love" even if they're brainwashed... In fact, because they're brainwashed.

The player in XD could have badges prior to the game which allows him to control the Pokemon he gains, though I would argue they're already brainwashed... You simply transfer the strings from the enemy to yourself.

And I admit badges wouldn't be necessary in every situation... Starters, for instance, appear to be domesticated and thus bond with the player because they don't have the wild mentality. But simply put, badges and Pokeballs appears to have some level of control over Pokemon.

bobandbill · Oct 3, 2009

Redstar said:
There's a difference between hunting, defending territory, and just being hot-headed compared to battling. All are likely to end in death, whereas Pokemon battling has no purpose other than gaining money and so on. I can't imagine Pokemon battling each other for no reason. (Though play-fighting as childhood practice for survival later on is imaginable)

Gaining money and so forth is the objective of the trainer - if Pokemon didn't want to fight, they wouldn't obey, nor make it their lifestyle - Pokemon like Tyrogue and Machop do it just to become stronger, as their dex entries indicate, for instance - what's to say other Pokemon wouldn't share the same sentiment? (And I'm quite sure many more go even further and show this even more - don't feel like going through them all though for the mere purpose of this though, tbh). As NPCs also state they respect the trainer, or train with them out of friendship, etc.

Heck, the footprint guy who tells you what your Pokemon are thinking in D/P/Pt does this - the Pokemon themselves talk about...actually, I'm going there now in my Platinum game to state what my current party says, for the heck of it.
My just-caught Shaymin: 'Others say there are people who aren't very nice to Pokmon. I wonder about (trainersname)...Will he look after Shaymin nicely? Will I get to go all over with this Trainer? Can we be... Friends?'
A traded Charizard trained a bit on this game: 'If a Pokemon were to travel alone, it would be limited as to where it could go. But travelling with a human, a Pokemon would be able to travel farther afield to more distant cities and lands. Travelling with (trainer'sname) has been rewarding and reassuring. And very entertaining...'
A well-trained Torterra: '(Trainer'sname) is.... a remarkable human and Trainer. That I can always perform the best any Torterra possibly can... I attribute that entirely to my partner (trainer'sname). When we travel, I can see wild Pokemon eyeing us enviously...

These (and more which I can't be bothered writing as they are repeats/very darn similar) show that the Pokemon values friendship, and wants to travel with you, and values getting stronger thanks to you - they like battling and hence they have reason behind battling there be a motive as they like it!

And getting away from that, there's no mention of brainwashing there. (As shown by stylised ones - Biberal for instance, no matter how much it loves sitting in your team using HMs and all, still acts stupid when he 'talks', so I don't think any brainwashing system has just conveniently not worked on it. After all, why would a brainwashing theory not manage to get at least the same responses from many Pokemon? Growlithe is established to be particularly loyal and all in wanting to protect its trainer - again, no mention of it being brainwashed or forced to fight, just that it is loyal. Gardevoir is another. But why are no other Pokemon considered to be loyal enough for it to be a special trait and warrant mention?

Furthermore, in Colosseum and XD - there IS brainwashing of a sort - but this is done by evil gangs wanting to control the Pokemon, making them artificial machine or war or however they say they become exactly. The fact that this brainwashing of the Pokemon is very much frowned upon by society outside of the criminals and especially the heroes (the aim of the game being to rescue them and return them to normal) suggests to me that they aren't doing the same thing themselves (unless they're being so utterly hypocritical to the point of stupidity... or the other way around) - working together with Pokemon and being friends with them, blah blah, etc is what is being clearly supported. If they used Pokemon for eveil means like Team Rocket, you could argue that, but the games definitely go at some considerable length on the fact Cipher have made the Pokemon that way to make them obey them (like the Shadow Lugia), and you have to stop them from doing that and make them normal so they no longer act like that.

It does appear to be the way the games. both handhelds and on home consoles, shows the way Pokemon and trainers work through and through.

The gym badges also boost stats, which suggests some sort of magical or at least technological function. That leads me to believe they have nothing to do with trust or respect.

Maybe they inspire the Pokemon to work on that aspect, or achieving the victories in that gym teaches the Pokemon about, say, Defence? I believe that's one way about that, as how the badges work in that regard is never explained in the games - just vague info thrown at you. (And other items do that too, like the Power Bracelet, etc, that seem to be like training items, essentially).

Friendship existed in first generation, albeit crudely. I don't particularly consider the friendship feature a defining factor, since dogs love humans unconditionally but they're also the products of generations of genetic slavery by killing certain dogs or preventing them to breed in favour of more timid ones. Pokemon can still "love" even if they're brainwashed... In fact, because they're brainwashed.

I don't see any evidence of this brainwashing in the games though - you keep mentioning the manga (which I'm not talking about) and badges, but that's an interpretation, and although if you view it from one way to make the brainwashing theory possible, you can just as easily look at it the way NPCs and so forth talk about it which 'disproves' the brainwashing idea, so it's not actually supported by canon, I feel.

I also don't see why real-world instances of dog-breeding exactly correlates to the Pokemon world either, as Pokemon does have it that wild Pokemon can be captured and used, not just the starters and all, so I don't believe breeding in that manner necessarily exists. If anything, it's supposedly a new discovery (GSC/HG/SS have it that Pokemon being born from eggs is a very recent discovery - so recent it occurs at the start of the player's adventure, so from that one can conclude Pokemon couldn't have been bred in that manner by people. Unless one insists on assuming that everyone in the Pokemon world is so stupid, but to use that for this debate seems a bit pointless, really).

If they say that they brainwash Pokemon, then fine - but they don't, instead talking about friendship and kindness, and all the while your Pokemon tells you they're happier because they're stronger thanks to you. Hmm. I don't see any reason why this talk of friendship should be carelessly ignored, tbh - it's certainly more emphasised than brainwashing, for one.

The player in XD could have badges prior to the game which allows him to control the Pokemon he gains, though I would argue they're already brainwashed... You simply transfer the strings from the enemy to yourself.

And I admit badges wouldn't be necessary in every situation... Starters, for instance, appear to be domesticated and thus bond with the player because they don't have the wild mentality. But simply put, badges and Pokeballs appears to have some level of control over Pokemon.

That's assuming too much though - how many trainers would already have badges, and how does everyone manage to control Pokemon? (And furthermore, the character from XD is established as a young child with a low-levelled Pokemon who has lived in Orre/not battled in gyms before and all, so there goes that theory. Or look at his sister in Jovi who also has a Pokemon and is even younger. Or Chobin, or...). Surely not all of the trainers there (nor all in the other games with their Magikarp teams and all) have brainwashed their Pokemon through a badge... and if they don't have badges, how are they already brainwashed, then? If anything, Colosseum and XD even further promote the whole friendship thing and all - you have to be kind to Shadow Pokemon to purify them - done by training them in battles, or giving them massages with colognes, for instance. Can't say I'm not confused by a statement there either - transfer....what strings from the enemy to yourself?

Starters have at least once been said to have been caught by the prof of the game rather than bred, I recall... look at Yellow as well (which did have some anime elements, but whatever), where Pikachu stays out of the ball, and was a random Pokemon caught by Oak in the show. And in HG/SS... any Pokemon can go outside of the ball just to follow you around - you seem them jump out of the Pokeball, so one can argue their 'effect' there doesn't really apply so much - just to capture them initially. Pokeballs are also established to have a built-in environment for the Pokemon to live in, rather than brainwashing devices or the such. (And before Pokeballs, there were Apricorns... wash brainwashing just a 'recent' thing added in that never gets mentioned? =/

It probably is possibly to work out a theory that they are brainwashed based on this and that and some personal additions and use that in a fic, but my point is that in the vast majority of instance in the games, there is a severe lack of such talks of brainwashing, or contridiction in that friendship and kindness is promoted in why the Pokemon does what you ask it too.

Redstar · Oct 3, 2009

bobandbill said:
Gaining money and so forth is the objective of the trainer - if Pokemon didn't want to fight, they wouldn't obey, nor make it their lifestyle - Pokemon like Tyrogue and Machop do it just to become stronger, as their dex entries indicate, for instance - what's to say other Pokemon wouldn't share the same sentiment? (And I'm quite sure many more go even further and show this even more - don't feel like going through them all though for the mere purpose of this though, tbh). As NPCs also state they respect the trainer, or train with them out of friendship, etc.

I would argue those two are exceptions because their Fighting type, which inherently gives them a mentality different from standard Pokemon. Note that most Fighting types looks human.

bobandbill said:
Heck, the footprint guy who tells you what your Pokemon are thinking in D/P/Pt does this - the Pokemon themselves talk about...actually, I'm going there now in my Platinum game to state what my current party says, for the heck of it.
My just-caught Shaymin: 'Others say there are people who aren't very nice to Pokmon. I wonder about (trainersname)...Will he look after Shaymin nicely? Will I get to go all over with this Trainer? Can we be... Friends?'
A traded Charizard trained a bit on this game: 'If a Pokemon were to travel alone, it would be limited as to where it could go. But travelling with a human, a Pokemon would be able to travel farther afield to more distant cities and lands. Travelling with (trainer'sname) has been rewarding and reassuring. And very entertaining...'
A well-trained Torterra: '(Trainer'sname) is.... a remarkable human and Trainer. That I can always perform the best any Torterra possibly can... I attribute that entirely to my partner (trainer'sname). When we travel, I can see wild Pokemon eyeing us enviously...

These (and more which I can't be bothered writing as they are repeats/very darn similar) show that the Pokemon values friendship, and wants to travel with you, and values getting stronger thanks to you - they like battling and hence they have reason behind battling there be a motive as they like it!

Well that is intriguing, but sounds rather... Stupid. A guy putting words and thoughts into Pokemon' minds by looking at their foot-prints? I'll probably have to go with that being only pseudo-canon.

bobandbill said:
And getting away from that, there's no mention of brainwashing there. (As shown by stylised ones - Biberal for instance, no matter how much it loves sitting in your team using HMs and all, still acts stupid when he 'talks', so I don't think any brainwashing system has just conveniently not worked on it. After all, why would a brainwashing theory not manage to get at least the same responses from many Pokemon? Growlithe is established to be particularly loyal and all in wanting to protect its trainer - again, no mention of it being brainwashed or forced to fight, just that it is loyal. Gardevoir is another. But why are no other Pokemon considered to be loyal enough for it to be a special trait and warrant mention?

How is Bibarel stupid? I don't know what you're getting at here.

Dogs are loyal because they're domesticated, or genetically brainwashed. I won't suggest the same is true for Growlithe, but I can say that considering Growlithe and Arcanine are legendaries based on the concept of loyalty and protection, it nullifies the need for brainwashing... They're wired for it beforehand.

bobandbill said:
Maybe they inspire the Pokemon to work on that aspect, or achieving the victories in that gym teaches the Pokemon about, say, Defence? I believe that's one way about that, as how the badges work in that regard is never explained in the games - just vague info thrown at you. (And other items do that too, like the Power Bracelet, etc, that seem to be like training items, essentially).

I prefer the magic theory, since it fits into the canon established in the manga (again, based on the notes for the game, so game canon as well).

bobandbill said:
If they say that they brainwash Pokemon, then fine - but they don't, instead talking about friendship and kindness, and all the while your Pokemon tells you they're happier because they're stronger thanks to you. Hmm. I don't see any reason why this talk of friendship should be carelessly ignored, tbh - it's certainly more emphasised than brainwashing, for one.

As I've already said, brainwashing isn't always necessary. Badges and Pokeballs are just safeguards. I never discounted friendship as a factor.

bobandbill said:
Surely not all of the trainers there (nor all in the other games with their Magikarp teams and all) have brainwashed their Pokemon through a badge... and if they don't have badges, how are they already brainwashed, then? If anything, Colosseum and XD even further promote the whole friendship thing and all - you have to be kind to Shadow Pokemon to purify them - done by training them in battles, or giving them massages with colognes, for instance. Can't say I'm not confused by a statement there either - transfer....what strings from the enemy to yourself?

You transfer the strings of slavery. You steal the Pokemon, which is inherently wrong and illegal, and then battle them. The "purification" process is null since you're simply just transferring the brainwashing of them under your own control.

bobandbill said:
Starters have at least once been said to have been caught by the prof of the game rather than bred, I recall... look at Yellow as well (which did have some anime elements, but whatever), where Pikachu stays out of the ball, and was a random Pokemon caught by Oak in the show. And in HG/SS... any Pokemon can go outside of the ball just to follow you around - you seem them jump out of the Pokeball, so one can argue their 'effect' there doesn't really apply so much - just to capture them initially. Pokeballs are also established to have a built-in environment for the Pokemon to live in, rather than brainwashing devices or the such. (And before Pokeballs, there were Apricorns... wash brainwashing just a 'recent' thing added in that never gets mentioned? =/

Pikachu doesn't count. Yellow isn't canon. All the other starters are quite possibly domesticated or at least zooed, meaning they'll of course be loyal and friendly.

I don't see why apricon-based Pokeballs can't also brainwash Pokemon.

bobandbill said:
It probably is possibly to work out a theory that they are brainwashed based on this and that and some personal additions and use that in a fic, but my point is that in the vast majority of instance in the games, there is a severe lack of such talks of brainwashing, or contridiction in that friendship and kindness is promoted in why the Pokemon does what you ask it too.

Again, I never discounted friendship as a factor in Pokemon training. It's just simple logic to conclude that badges and Pokeballs act as strings or brainwashing as well.

Luphinid Silnaek · Oct 3, 2009

o.O How do you define canon, Redstar? You suggest the myths in the Canalave library, the interpretations of Doctor Footprint and the entire Yellow version aren't canon. Surely all of this was part of and created by the franchise?

Redstar · Oct 3, 2009

Yellow version isn't canon because it was quite clearly an attempt to capitalize on the anime, and almost none of the features are later seen (Nurse Joys and Officer Jennies, etc.) The story wasn't different at all, so it's more safe to say Yellow is an alternate continuity of sorts.

The myths at Canalave aren't canon because they probably didn't happen; they're myths. I'm not denying that it's canon people believe those myths, or that they're in the games, but to say that "people married Pokemon and it was utopia" certainly can't be proclaimed canon unless a later generation is a prequel or something. And I'm not entirely aware of the footprint guy in the context of the game, but he seems more to be a feature rather than canon.

bobandbill · Oct 3, 2009

Redstar said:
I would argue those two are exceptions because their Fighting type, which inherently gives them a mentality different from standard Pokemon. Note that most Fighting types looks human.

The point behind they fact they look human is...? Looking like humans means they have to act like them besides being Pokemon? =/

Also, show that Fighting Types are necessarily different in this manner just because they are fighting types. It doesn't mean that other Pokemon don't want to be stronger as well. Such as, say, the Pokemon which are territorial - surely to do that, they have to fight to train and actually get stronger? Trainers also help in this regard as well, letting Pokemon travel places with them and grow faster.

Well that is intriguing, but sounds rather... Stupid. A guy putting words and thoughts into Pokemon' minds by looking at their foot-prints? I'll probably have to go with that being only pseudo-canon.

It's pseudo-canon because it's stupid? Cmon, we're talking about Pokemon here, where logic already deems it stupid if you think about it too much on even simple aspects of it if you forget to consider it as a different world or what-not with flame-throwing chickens and all. =P It's put directly into the main series by Game Freak themselves - so deeming it as not counting as it's probably only pseudo-canon in your mind is just plain...well, stupid, no way around it. (And other NPCs who don't look at footprints also say similar stuff like this, just with less emphasis than that guy).

As you've also mentioned manga many times on about Pokemon not fighting in the wild - well, there's this: http://www.mangafox.com/manga/pok_mon_adventures/v02/c021/3.html Clearly shows them fighting in the wild. For them to fight, they would have to practise at it, no? After all, Pokemon are usually based loosely on animals, and many of them also fight amongst themselves both at a young age. (Just look at the game's experience points system - gained through battles - how else would they get levels if not battling with a trainer? By battling in the wild by themselves, is how).

How is Bibarel stupid? I don't know what you're getting at here.

It kinda is portrayed as one...even its abilities (Simple and Unaware) suggest this, and its way of thinking when it tells you its thoughts are kept in that line as well.

Dogs are loyal because they're domesticated, or genetically brainwashed. I won't suggest the same is true for Growlithe, but I can say that considering Growlithe and Arcanine are legendaries based on the concept of loyalty and protection, it nullifies the need for brainwashing... They're wired for it beforehand.

*points to previous discussion on eggs and how Pokemon have not been discovered to be able to bred until the very present moment* That suggests it isn't true for Growlithe at all. Arcanine is not a legendary Pokemon (it was in the REALLY early concept days/in the anime but soon after was made a normal one, and is simply based of a legend - like many other Pokemon, including Magikarp/Gyarados) - and Growlithe certainly is not a legendary Pokemon. And wired for it? I find that hard to by... and there's still Gardevoir (a Psychic Pokemon hard-wired to obey anything without question? I can't really see that, and there's naught to suggest it as well), and a few others as well (like Mightyena who is said to obey trainers orders willingly or something along those lines). (And again with manga - Pikachu in Vs Onix in PokeSpecial? It trusts Red more after he saves it from Onix during the battle - develops the whole friendship and loyalty thing from Red's heroic actions, not brainwashing.

I jsut...can't really buy into the 'they're already loyal hence they don't need brainwashing'.... there's no evidence for such a thing, again. =/

I prefer the magic theory, since it fits into the canon established in the manga (again, based on the notes for the game, so game canon as well).

I feel I should correct you on one vital point - the manga =/= games. It's based off the games, yes - but that does not make it game canon. It's made by entirely different people from Game Freak, and has many differences from it. The anime is also based on the games - yet anime canon is also not game canon despite the huge similarities it has when you get down to it). Either way - it does not disprove anything at all.

As I've already said, brainwashing isn't always necessary. Badges and Pokeballs are just safeguards. I never discounted friendship as a factor.

Where then are they said to be safeguards - and why even bother with them when they're already friendly? Seems flawed at best. Never mind that you seemed to be discounting it by arguing that they are brainwashed... =P

You transfer the strings of slavery. You steal the Pokemon, which is inherently wrong and illegal, and then battle them. The "purification" process is null since you're simply just transferring the brainwashing of them under your own control.

...I think you've missed the point (especially as the other option was to... let them kept being used by Cipher to make even more Pokemon Shadow Pokemon, and from there take over the world and all). You're stealing them away from the bad guys - they subvert the whole 'you can't steal from trainers!' by making it that you have to steal from the bad guys to save them. And if they were simply transferring the brainwashing - why then would they purify them and hence undo that brainwashing? (Never mind that they don't obey you and go into Hyper State/Reverse state quite often as well so they're not really in your control - they ignore you and can even attack you - look at Wes and Makuhita, the first Shadow Pokemon he encounters in the game).

Yeah... this I also can't buy.

Pikachu doesn't count. Yellow isn't canon. All the other starters are quite possibly domesticated or at least zooed, meaning they'll of course be loyal and friendly.

Please explain why Yellow isn't canon. Last I checked it was an official game made by Game Freak and licensed by Nintendo and all. Yellow not canon? Remember Game Freak made it in the end, and willingly went with the Anime references they didn't have to go with - they could have done something else instead. And HG/SS with Pokemon following the player in the entirely non-Anime-inspired manner still stands.

If, say, Birch had only just caught the starters, how can they be zooed or domesticated in nearly zero time? Basically there's nothing saying they are, really, so it's at best a theory, not what the games actually show.

I don't see why apricon-based Pokeballs can't also brainwash Pokemon.

Again, show Kurt has ever shown that his Apricorn balls brainwash Pokemon. It's another theory - but we're arguing over what canon definately shows, nto what could happen (for them any sort of theory can be thrown up).

Again, I never discounted friendship as a factor in Pokemon training. It's just simple logic to conclude that badges and Pokeballs act as strings or brainwashing as well.

I can also say it's simply logic that badges are used to show an achievement by beating the Gym Leader, and Pokemon recognise such feats and hence can choose to respect the trainer for being a worthy trainer, and PokeBalls are, as canonically established, used to store Pokemon and keep them in with a built-in environment for them to relax in as the trainer goes from town to town and so forth. Easy enough to say, no? Where's the evidence for your logic? Such as, say from the manga you keep talking about? So far it seems you've only came up with theories from a few features of them, but that is not straight from the canon, and by far and beyond the contrary is seemingly more supported by multiple instances in the games... =/

EDIT:

Yellow version isn't canon because it was quite clearly an attempt to capitalize on the anime, and almost none of the features are later seen (Nurse Joys and Officer Jennies, etc.) The story wasn't different at all, so it's more safe to say Yellow is an alternate continuity of sorts.

The myths at Canalave aren't canon because they probably didn't happen; they're myths. I'm not denying that it's canon people believe those myths, or that they're in the games, but to say that "people married Pokemon and it was utopia" certainly can't be proclaimed canon unless a later generation is a prequel or something. And I'm not entirely aware of the footprint guy in the context of the game, but he seems more to be a feature rather than canon.

Again - Yellow was made by Game Freak, and approved by Nintendo, and was an official game. Anime references aside, it still stands as an official game. The manga isn't even made by Game Freak at all - shoudl one then say it isn't canon bacuase it's clearly an attempt to capitlise on the popularity of the games? You never see features of it outside (like certain protrayals of characters, etc), the story still follows the game format, so you could say it's an alternate continuity of sorts. =P

Yellow however falls right into the main series of the game. Same for every other third-game in the series, liek Crystal, Emerald, Platinum, and remakes in FR/LG and HG/SS.

The myths are mentioned firestly in the canon games though, and hence are shown to be at the very least what people of Sinnoh thought - and you can't deny their thoughts and perceptions of their own world as unimportant. And...well, I can;t say I feel bothered to go over the last point, really. =/ If it's in the official games, how can it not be canon, even if it seems silly (again - we're talking Pokemon), or may have also occured in other canons?

Redstar · Oct 3, 2009

bobandbill said:
The point behind they fact they look human is...? Looking like humans means they have to act like them besides being Pokemon? =/

Yes. It may indicate that they're related to humans.

bobandbill said:
It's pseudo-canon because it's stupid? Cmon, we're talking about Pokemon here, where logic already deems it stupid if you think about it too much on even simple aspects of it if you forget to consider it as a different world or what-not with flame-throwing chickens and all. =P It's put directly into the main series by Game Freak themselves - so deeming it as not counting as it's probably only pseudo-canon in your mind is just plain...well, stupid, no way around it. (And other NPCs who don't look at footprints also say similar stuff like this, just with less emphasis than that guy).

Logic has often been applied to the games and anime, and proven to be sound. I'm a huge contributor in many of the threads that proclaim the things that "don't make sense". Nearly everything does if people just used their brains.

I find it pseudo-canon because it's a feature. Gameplay features are clearly not in-universe, so they're not canon.

bobandbill said:
As you've also mentioned manga many times on about Pokemon not fighting in the wild - well, there's this: http://www.mangafox.com/manga/pok_mon_adventures/v02/c021/3.html Clearly shows them fighting in the wild. For them to fight, they would have to practise at it, no? After all, Pokemon are usually based loosely on animals, and many of them also fight amongst themselves both at a young age. (Just look at the game's experience points system - gained through battles - how else would they get levels if not battling with a trainer? By battling in the wild by themselves, is how).

(I love that chapter) The page itself indicates they're fighting for a reason: over a Nidoqueen. I also already suggested Pokemon practice fighting. But play-fighting and fighting over resources (food, territory, and mates) is much different than Pokemon battling.

A trained Pokemon really doesn't need to worry about any of those, since the trainer provides them, so human-directed battling is a much different thing.

bobandbill said:
That suggests it isn't true for Growlithe at all. Arcanine is not a legendary Pokemon (it was in the REALLY early concept days/in the anime but soon after was made a normal one, and is simply based of a legend - like many other Pokemon, including Magikarp/Gyarados) - and Growlithe certainly is not a legendary Pokemon.

The whole "it used to be a legendary in beta" idea is a myth. But the fact that Growlithe and Arcanine are legendaries can't be denied, just like Slowpoke being a legendary can't.

bobandbill said:
And wired for it? I find that hard to by... and there's still Gardevoir (a Psychic Pokemon hard-wired to obey anything without question? I can't really see that, and there's naught to suggest it as well), and a few others as well (like Mightyena who is said to obey trainers orders willingly or something along those lines).

Why not? Humans are wired for cooperation, learning, sex drive, etc. Dogs are wired for loyalty, affection, etc. Chimps are wired for a male-dominated society, war, rape, etc. Why can't Growlithe be wired for loyalty? You agree with me yourself in that exact post.

bobandbill said:
I feel I should correct you on one vital point - the manga =/= games. It's based off the games, yes - but that does not make it game canon. It's made by entirely different people from Game Freak, and has many differences from it. The anime is also based on the games - yet anime canon is also not game canon despite the huge similarities it has when you get down to it). Either way - it does not disprove anything at all.

You seem to keep overlooking the many times I point out the Special manga is based off Game Freak's story notes. =/

bobandbill said:
...I think you've missed the point (especially as the other option was to... let them kept being used by Cipher to make even more Pokemon Shadow Pokemon, and from there take over the world and all). You're stealing them away from the bad guys - they subvert the whole 'you can't steal from trainers!' by making it that you have to steal from the bad guys to save them. And if they were simply transferring the brainwashing - why then would they purify them and hence undo that brainwashing? (Never mind that they don't obey you and go into Hyper State/Reverse state quite often as well so they're not really in your control - they ignore you and can even attack you - look at Wes and Makuhita, the first Shadow Pokemon he encounters in the game).

Stealing is always wrong.

Purification, as I already said, is switching the strings to the player. I never said the brainwashing was undone.

bobandbill said:
Please explain why Yellow isn't canon. Last I checked it was an official game made by Game Freak and licensed by Nintendo and all. Yellow not canon? Remember Game Freak made it in the end, and willingly went with the Anime references they didn't have to go with - they could have done something else instead. And HG/SS with Pokemon following the player in the entirely non-Anime-inspired manner still stands.

Yellow is an alternate continuity. You don't see Nurse Joys and Officer Jennys running around, do you? It simply doesn't fit into the continuity of the games, except in terms of features... That's all Yellow was: a showcase of features.

bobandbill said:
If, say, Birch had only just caught the starters, how can they be zooed or domesticated in nearly zero time? Basically there's nothing saying they are, really, so it's at best a theory, not what the games actually show.

Did he just catch them? I really don't know. But it's common theory starters are either zooed for protection or domesticated, which explains their absence in the wild.

bobandbill said:
Again, show Kurt has ever shown that his Apricorn balls brainwash Pokemon. It's another theory - but we're arguing over what canon definately shows, nto what could happen (for them any sort of theory can be thrown up).

It doesn't need to be shown... The fact that nuts can be used to capture animals suggests they have some magical properties, so why can't brainwashing be one of them?

bobandbill said:
I can also say it's simply logic that badges are used to show an achievement by beating the Gym Leader, and Pokemon recognise such feats and hence can choose to respect the trainer for being a worthy trainer, and PokeBalls are, as canonically established, used to store Pokemon and keep them in with a built-in environment for them to relax in as the trainer goes from town to town and so forth. Easy enough to say, no? Where's the evidence for your logic? Such as, say from the manga you keep talking about? So far it seems you've only came up with theories from a few features of them, but that is not straight from the canon, and by far and beyond the contrary is seemingly more supported by multiple instances in the games... =/

My logic is the Masterball. The President gives you it, and you're intended to catch Mewtwo with it. You do, as suggested in canon by GSC... If Gold goes to the same place, you find "Berserk Gene". This suggests that when Red caught Mewtwo with the Masterball, a device already stated to have the purpose of catching extremely powerful Pokemon, the ball re-wrote Mewtwo's genetic coding and removed his "wild" or violent genes.

bobandbill said:
Yellow however falls right into the main series of the game. Same for every other third-game in the series, liek Crystal, Emerald, Platinum, and remakes in FR/LG and HG/SS.

None of the third versions of a generation are main canon. Crystal is most likely canon, since the Suicine event and Eusine were planted into the main continuity with HGSS, but Emerald and Platinum aren't. They're alternate continuity... The fact that the stories are completely different and events happen different than in their main-generation predecessors suggests this. Yellow did nothing but add features, so it's not main canon.

bobandbill said:
The myths are mentioned firestly in the canon games though, and hence are shown to be at the very least what people of Sinnoh thought - and you can't deny their thoughts and perceptions of their own world as unimportant. And...well, I can;t say I feel bothered to go over the last point, really. =/ If it's in the official games, how can it not be canon, even if it seems silly (again - we're talking Pokemon), or may have also occured in other canons?

I already told you: when Game Freak makes a generation that states Pokemon and humans lived exactly as suggested in the myths as history, not myths, it will be canon. Until then they are just myths, they didn't happen, and can't be used as evidence as to how humans view Pokemon.

JX Valentine · Oct 3, 2009

Sparkling Dragon said:
You know what, this is like arguing with a brick wall.

And that's why I don't actually pay attention to him anymore (unless, of course, people PM me to say, "lulz, Jax, there's a debate going on in the FFL, and it's hilarious"). That and it's generally more entertaining, as I've just learned, to step back and watch three other people take care of the debate department instead of handle it all by my lonesome.

(Although I am lulzing over the "game that's definitely official, with the official Nintendo seal and everything isn't canon when the creators pretty much stated that it is just because you don't see Officer Jennies running around when only one was ever shown in Yellow and just because you don't see the same pink-haired nurse over and over again everywhere when, yeah, from the third gen onward, you do" statement. Holy Jesus, guys. That just made my morning. Sure, I skimmed and found other reasons to cackle madly, like the part about how his credentials are centered around fan speculation threads in a forum that's been filled with WTF logic on a frequent basis, but... yeah. That part was just gold right there. That and the "Special is based on Game Freak's notes" statement while ignoring the fact that Electric Tales was based on the anime staff's notes but went in a completely different direction and is therefore not considered the same as the anime's continuity. And, of course, considering we've got the "you don't see Nurse Joys running around so Yellow is completely not canon" part, we might as well say "you don't see Amarillo del Bosque Verde running around so manga is what, guys?" part. Yay consistency in logical explanation! Oh, and the part about apricorns = magical without realizing the process to their creation hasn't ever actually been detailed and could just be reliant on science in the same way a Poké Ball relies on it. That was good too. And I like his use of the phrase "common theory" when, usually, no one involved in the fandom actually thinks that way. But, you know, mostly just the canon discussion amuses me.)

But for those of us who really don't give a crap enough to make a contribution beyond support to a fellow hard sci-fi writer here (you know, the one who wrote about how sentience and sapience are two different things by definition) in the form of snark and "Hey, am I the only one who just rofled?"... how about another bold topic?

Rewinding to the part about Mary Sues because it was an interesting discussion before I said, "Guys? Before we run off and make a guide... aren't we forgetting everything else here?":

What's your character's kryptonite? As in, if your characters have special abilities, how do you balance them out to keep them from tipping towards the special snowflake direction?

bobandbill · Oct 3, 2009

Redstar said:
Yes. It may indicate that they're related to humans.

May indicate =/= does, espcially considering that they are established to be Pokemon. So Arceus is now directly related (instead of just loosely based off) to god now? (Or goats?) And so forth? And again - what does this have to do with this point, or the other Pokemon I mentioned you skipped over?

Logic has often been applied to the games and anime, and proven to be sound. I'm a huge contributor in many of the threads that proclaim the things that "don't make sense". Nearly everything does if people just used their brains.

And many other instances no one conclusion has been arrived - and the real kicker is that these are fan-made theories in the end, meaning it isn't canon, just a possibility. And we're arguing canon here - if there's more than one possibility, it ain't canon.

I find it pseudo-canon because it's a feature. Gameplay features are clearly not in-universe, so they're not canon.

No. A game-play feature is a feature used to play the game. Like, using the stylus to make poffin. NPCs however are NOT gameplay features, they are a part of the game itself, and hence the canon of it. If he's a feature, then every other character is a feature. This character is most definitely in-universe...

Really - he's not pseudo canon - he's canon. Just because he is odd in how he acts to a degree in your opinion (like the REST of the franchise) doesn't change a thing. =/

(I love that chapter) The page itself indicates they're fighting for a reason: over a Nidoqueen. I also already suggested Pokemon practice fighting. But play-fighting and fighting over resources (food, territory, and mates) is much different than Pokemon battling.

A trained Pokemon really doesn't need to worry about any of those, since the trainer provides them, so human-directed battling is a much different thing.

Firstly, wouldn't the trained Pokemon have to worry about it? A trainer offers help and all - so what if they don't preform? They would be released again into the wild again, 'logically' for a stronger Pokemon if the trainer got another. Or left in the box never to interact with others again, possibly, if one was to take that line. So they would have something to worry about, no? It's not battling for no purpose - at the very least, they value it because it makes them stronger, and they get to travel about - not performing would put that at risk, or make them feel like they weren't doing enough for their trainer who does all of this for them.

Either way - you stated they do not fight in the wild - yet they do. I hardly think the fact they do it for different reasons (which is obviously the case due to a different lifestyle, environment, etc) really matters here on your previous statements. =/ Nor how it has anything to do with how they are brainwashed or not.

The whole "it used to be a legendary in beta" idea is a myth. But the fact that Growlithe and Arcanine are legendaries can't be denied, just like Slowpoke being a legendary can't.

Then why is it not a legendary Pokemon in any of the games, listed at the end of the Pokedex, with high stats, made a deal about it, and treated as such by Game Freak or anything else? It is not a legendary Pokemon like, say Lugia or Dialga or Heatran, etc - I don't see where you're getting this from. =/ In fact, I just denied it. I'd go in more depth on why they are not legendary Pokemon drawing comparisons and all, but I don't feel like wasting my time on this point, tbh. Nor does this concern the supposed brainwashing of Pokemon, either.

Why not? Humans are wired for cooperation, learning, sex drive, etc. Dogs are wired for loyalty, affection, etc. Chimps are wired for a male-dominated society, war, rape, etc. Why can't Growlithe be wired for loyalty? You agree with me yourself in that exact post.

...

...

Let's just say there is still nothing showing in the games Pokemon are brainwashed, no matter what humans are now wired to do as well. =/ Nor how that does not mean chimps are wired to do the same things (monkeys =/= humans! or Pokemon!). Also, Growlithe is NOT automatically loyal like a dog. Mistreat a dog, you get bitten by it. And what about the other Pokemon mentioned? Again don't feel like going on this point atm, as there really is just a heap wrong with it... =/

You seem to keep overlooking the many times I point out the Special manga is based off Game Freak's story notes. =/

And yet it still isn't the game. It's a different canon entirely, and you seem to skip over that point. Even if I went and had a two-month talk with the creators of Pokemon on their franchise, got their thoughts, looked at all of the work and so forth, and then did something based off of it - it's still a different canon to the games, for it isn't the games itself that's made by Game Freak and all.

Stealing is always wrong.

Again, you're missing the entire point and context of the game.

Purification, as I already said, is switching the strings to the player. I never said the brainwashing was undone.

And the methods used in purification? They had a large absence of brainwashing there - just battling and kindness and so forth. No brainwashing. And no evidence for it anywhere.

Yellow is an alternate continuity. You don't see Nurse Joys and Officer Jennys running around, do you? It simply doesn't fit into the continuity of the games, except in terms of features... That's all Yellow was: a showcase of features.

Did he just catch them? I really don't know. But it's common theory starters are either zooed for protection or domesticated, which explains their absence in the wild.

It's also common theory he just caught them. Elm apparently also just caught them, if memory serves. Your point being? Common theory =/= canon either, remember, so again no points there.

It doesn't need to be shown... The fact that nuts can be used to capture animals suggests they have some magical properties, so why can't brainwashing be one of them?

This seems to be your common argument - 'what if _____ was the case? You can't say it's not possible!' But you can't argue a debate like this, particularly when I'm talking about what is actually proven by canon or not. Your theories are not proven by canon, so for you to show me that, you would have to show it. The theory stands, and so does any other theory I or anyone could pull out of thin air 9for instance - Apricorns eat the souls of Pokemon put into them and replaced with their own so Kurt can have world conquest. You can't disprove it, but it's not supported at all by canon!), and yet they are just interpretations - possibilities, not the actual thing. If that's what you are arguing, then there's no need for I am talking about something else, and there's no way a fan theory = canon if it's unsupported by canon itself.

My logic is the Masterball. The President gives you it, and you're intended to catch Mewtwo with it. You do, as suggested in canon by GSC... If Gold goes to the same place, you find "Berserk Gene". This suggests that when Red caught Mewtwo with the Masterball, a device already stated to have the purpose of catching extremely powerful Pokemon, the ball re-wrote Mewtwo's genetic coding and removed his "wild" or violent genes.

First off, he didn't give it to you to specifically catch Mewtwo - it could be used on any Pokemon. Mewtwo was never mentioned. It was also thanks for, you know, saving the company from Team Rocket and Giovanni and him probably figuring giving it to someone who just beat TR would be a smarter choice than keeping it there under risk from TR. So it was never made to specifically capture Mewtwo and brainwash him. The player doesn't even know about Mewtwo at that stage.

And AGAIN - a fan theory! This is not supported - you just link two things and made a theory. Show me where it outright says this. Sure, it could suggest it... or it could be not the case. In any other game the Masterball is not shown in any way to suggest this either, and you're forgetting a mere Pokeball could be used to catch it instead as well. (Never mind that in HG/SS, there is no Berserk Gene and Mewtwo is there - but this makes it no canon, apparently...according to you. =/)

None of the third versions of a generation are main canon. Crystal is most likely canon, since the Suicine event and Eusine were planted into the main continuity with HGSS, but Emerald and Platinum aren't. They're alternate continuity... The fact that the stories are completely different and events happen different than in their main-generation predecessors suggests this. Yellow did nothing but add features, so it's not main canon.

I can't agree with your statements which basically are declaring the main games as uncanon because they have a few extensions to the plot. They're all done by Game Freak, the official makers of the game - but I feel you will not budge from this, which is a pity... if it's an official game, and part of the main series to boot, then it's canon. Most other fans would agree, I'm sure.

I already told you: when Game Freak makes a generation that states Pokemon and humans lived exactly as suggested in the myths as history, not myths, it will be canon. Until then they are just myths, they didn't happen, and can't be used as evidence as to how humans view Pokemon.

But then where did the myths come from? Myths are a theory by people on how so-and-so happened, etc. And the myths came from... people in Sinnoh, and can be read by people in Sinnoh in published books in a very-well-regarded library in Sinnoh (many dealing with the legendary Pokemon of the lake Uxie, etc, and so forth, which were thought to be mythical as well!) So, how can they not be used as evidence on how people viewed Pokemon history and Pokemon themselves? Sure, they are not necessarily fact they they do reflect views people actually had, no? And again - they're not a feature, they're part of the game itself, within the game's canon and establishment with how things happened.

At any rate, it's gotten far more mention than any brain-washing theory, which has just come from you putting a few things together and adding speculation. Your theories =/= canon, and if you don't prove that they are, there isn't any point going over this any more. =/ All of these points end up involving something not shown clearly and solely in game canon. and involve speculation, if you look at it. Based on a lot of dialogue and game plots and so forth - stuff ACTUALLY in the games, I can't honestly not see how Pokemon are not portrayed as being more than animals who are brainwashed - the game directly states it in multiple cases, like footprint-man telling the trainer what they thoughts are (how do all of those other people manage to tell if your Pokemon is happy or not, or give Wailords a haircut? Try to apply real-world 'logic' to that and a whole lot more...). Feel free to disregard certain points of canon and call them features when they aren't, but then you're just refusing to look at facts, and official canon/games made by Game Freak, and still not showing how they could be brainwashing Pokemon without showing something straight from the games. And going about disregarding official games or dismissing characters because they contradict you isn't any way to strengthen your argument. =/

Sgt Shock · Oct 3, 2009

What's your character's kryptonite? As in, if your characters have special abilities, how do you balance them out to keep them from tipping towards the special snowflake direction?

Josh's ability to create lightning, though versatile he wears him down the point that he can lose consciousness rather easily in battle. He tends to avoid using it. His ability is rather easily countered by Electric and Psychic Pokemon who can redirect his lightning along with Steel Pokemon who can conduct without be harmed too badly.

JX Valentine · Oct 3, 2009

Hold on, guys. To add to the roffling I did in my last post...

Why not? Humans are wired for cooperation, learning, sex drive, etc. Dogs are wired for loyalty, affection, etc. Chimps are wired for a male-dominated society, war, rape, etc. Why can't Growlithe be wired for loyalty? You agree with me yourself in that exact post.

...

...

Let's just say there is still nothing showing in the games Pokemon are brainwashed, no matter what humans are now wired to do as well. =/ Nor how that does not mean chimps are wired to do the same things (monkeys =/= humans! or Pokemon!).

...There's a furry joke somewhere in here, isn't there?

Yeah, okay, now I'm done. *puts up a card with that bold question again*

bobandbill · Oct 3, 2009

YAY JAX SOMETHING ELSE TO SAY (also go on that chat on your new place btw now =P)

What's your character's kryptonite? As in, if your characters have special abilities, how do you balance them out to keep them from tipping towards the special snowflake direction?

Well... my characters don't have special abilities bar Rui I suppose, in that she can see the aura of Pokemon to some extent (as Colosseum canon establishes). With her however, that's the only ability she has - she doesn't really have any prowess at battling, and although she can recongise which Pokemon are Shadow Pokemon or not, that's as far as it extends, really. Eh, I'm tired of typing atm so I'll leave it at that. =P

...There's a furry joke somewhere in here, isn't there?

IDK, you tell me. =/ *is tired*

An-chan · Oct 3, 2009

I have a ton of things to say, but I'm not going to say anything. A lot of bittersweet loling has happened at this end, as well, but.

What's your character's kryptonite? As in, if your characters have special abilities, how do you balance them out to keep them from tipping towards the special snowflake direction?

For Jack (who's my favourite character right now) it's anything *shiny*. He's ten, so his attention span is roughly ten seconds or so, and because of various things that happen (and because I like him that way) and since it's pretty much in his genes, he'll stay that way until he dies. Of old age, I presume. He doesn't have any special abilities, though, save for being incredibly lucky and very intelligent.

Yeah.

Misheard Whisper · Oct 3, 2009

What's your character's kryptonite? As in, if your characters have special abilities, how do you balance them out to keep them from tipping towards the special snowflake direction?

Spoiler:

Dragonfree · Oct 3, 2009

Just a few things concerning the current debate...

Purification, as I already said, is switching the strings to the player. I never said the brainwashing was undone.

But the game does. It is explicitly stated that the shadow Pokémon are mindless battling machines with no free will and that this is bad and must be undone through the purification process. Whether you think stealing is bad is really not relevant; you seem to be trying to extrapolate that somehow, if the protagonists are willing to steal Pokémon, surely they wouldn't put it behind them to be utter hypocrites and merely want the brainwashed Pokémon for themselves, which is ridiculous and assumes that characters can only come in black and white. It is quite clear that the protagonists are meant to care about the Pokémon and want to give them their free will back, and that they merely consider snagging the Pokémon in order to do this to be justifiable. Personally, I find it bizarre that your morals are so absolute as to find this completely unforgivable (is it also wrong to, say, "steal" abused children away from their parents?), but it is clear that the characters in the game don't share that opinion and that, stealing or no, they think the brainwashing of the shadow Pokémon is wrong and would not indulge in it themselves.

The argument that the footprint man is pseudo-canon because he's a "feature" is ridiculous. Badges controlling Pokémon or seemingly having properties that raise Pokémon's stats is decidedly more of a gameplay feature, blatantly only there to prevent the trading of powerful Pokémon to a new game to sweep through it easily, and yet you're upholding that as a holy element of canon. Meanwhile, the footprint man's assessment of happiness may be a feature, but the actual messages he gives you are not: there is absolutely no gameplay-related reason why Game Freak would have made him say those particular messages if they did not intend to imply that this is in truth what your Pokémon are thinking. Whether you think it's stupid is irrelevant; it is equally stupid that a little badge can mind-control living creatures, and yet, again, you seem to accept that as canonical just fine.

Look at it this way. There is exactly one reason to make a distinction between non-canonical gameplay features and actual canon, and it is that sometimes something has to be introduced for gameplay reasons even though it is not intended to be treated as part of the canonical world. For instance, the ability to view your Pokémon's stats is a gameplay feature, and it would be silly to claim that it is canon that you can view your Pokémon's numerical stats somehow. Similarly, badges allowing you control over stronger Pokémon is a gameplay feature, and it is arguably equally silly to claim that it is actual canon that traded Pokémon will only obey you if you have a certain number of badges. Nothing is stopping you from implementing these features in fanfiction anyway, of course, but it is also acceptable to dismiss them as non-canon because, again, they are gameplay features that could sensibly be argued to not be intended to represent canonical features of the world. And yes, the existence of a guy who can read your Pokémon's feelings about you from their footprints is a gameplay feature, there to allow you to gauge the happiness rating of your Pokémon. The exact things he says, however, are not gameplay features. It does not in any way affect the gameplay to have him tell you your Pokémon enjoy traveling with you and that they think you're helping them become the best they can be, as opposed to just, say, that the Pokémon looks at you in adoration and would follow you anywhere. So why would the messages go like that in particular, if it were not intended to be canonical?

The brainwashing argument requires selectively ignoring a huge chunk of canon, blowing gameplay features like badges allowing control of higher-leveled Pokémon out of proportion and specifically interpreting them in the dark and edgy way as opposed to the entirely plausible lighter alternative interpretation, and simply making up the rest out of practically nothing. I'm not stopping you from doing just that - you can make a compelling story out of it, I'm sure - but please, don't try to claim that is actually canonically the correct interpretation. Every canon preaches on about love and friendship and trust between trainer and Pokémon, and you can't just wave that off with "Oh, they're all hypocrites."

As for my views on Pokémon intelligence, I really don't think it is appropriate to measure intelligence in terms of some sort of a single scale on which you can only be "less", "equally" or "more" intelligent than humans. The way I interpret Pokémon in my primary works, they are self-aware in much the same way as humans, capable of complex communication and learning by example and instruction, and have powerful internal reality-simulation software allowing them to foresee the consequences of their actions, but are usually less advanced at abstract thinking and decidedly lacking in creativity. Thus, Pokémon cultures are largely static and primitive on a human scale and their wild battling techniques limited in their ingenuity. They also have a very powerful competitive drive, important to their survival in order to gain the necessary fighting ability to overcome their predators or prey and prevail in territorial disputes or fights over the right to mate. They fight frequently in the wild to gain more experience and become more powerful, which thanks to that internal competitive drive is essentially a goal in itself for them.

The system of Pokémon training arose first with humans befriending young wild Pokémon, who would then help to defend them against predators. The humans noticed the Pokémon they had befriended liked to fight one another and that this made them stronger and sometimes even caused them to evolve into bigger, more powerful forms. They began to encourage their mock fights so that they could defend them against more powerful predators, creating names for the Pokémon's various combat techniques, noticing how some were more effective in some situations than others, and eventually becoming better at fighting strategy than the Pokémon themselves, thanks to their unique creative and abstract thinking. They began to give their Pokémon advice when fighting and helped them practice particular techniques, even new ones, and the Pokémon realized the advantage to this, as it allowed them to both focus more on executing the attacks and end up with better strategies and thus likelier to win overall. Humans would go out with their Pokémon seeking other Pokémon to befriend and let the Pokémon they already had fight against; the wild Pokémon would sometimes be impressed by the power of the human-assisted Pokémon and choose warily to join the human as well. With teams of several Pokémon working together, they could perform better than all of them could have individually. The trained Pokémon became more powerful than any of the predators around, but in order to continue to grow in power, they picked fights with the other humans' Pokémon, who were similarly powerful, instead. The humans had fun with this as well, making a game of it. With the protection of their powerful Pokémon teams, it also became easier to travel around between different tribes or settlements, though the different traveling abilities of the different Pokémon made this irritable for some of them, who would grow restless at having to progress so slowly. Eventually they discovered these strange little nuts that could actually suck Pokémon inside of them, which when they had been hollowed out and had hinges put on them were ideal for easily carrying large Pokémon between places in a suspended state, which was great as far as the Pokémon were concerned. As this 'Pokémon training' became more commonplace, word spread about it among wild Pokémon, and more and more of them would specifically approach humans and challenge them to a fight to gauge the skill level of their Pokémon, joining those humans who could defeat them with the knowledge that this human could help them travel around and become more powerful.

Today, Pokémon training is basically a huge game with well-known terms to it: trainers must release Pokémon that wish to be, Pokémon must keep their attacks nonlethal in trainer battles, trainers must make sure to give their Pokémon adequate care between battles, etc. Pokémon do it as a convenient way to become stronger and evolve in a relatively short time while traveling the world, seeing places and battling Pokémon they never could have otherwise and making friends along the way; humans do it as a sport and as a nice exercise in independence for kids.

Shrike Flamestar · Oct 3, 2009

Okay, this is probably going to be long and repeat a lot of what bobandbill has said, but I want to add my own spin to things anyway:

Redstar said:
I did do the research. I write science fiction, so I knew the terms right off the bat... Then I looked them up for confirmation. Lo and behold, sentience is the right word and the only applicable one.

You write science fiction? Well I write science fiction too. What does that have to do with anything? They all have a different scientific meaning and if you refuse to accept that and insist on only using what is popularly culturally accepted be my guest but I won't be able to take anything you say seriously in that regard. They are all different and applicable as they each have a separate connotation of how a being thinks and perceives things, and since I'm arguing that Pokemon are intelligent Pokemon, they must have all three of them at least as I went over before. Hell, I'm not even sure if you're reading everything I'm writing as I sort of went over how I view Pokemon as being both sapient and self-aware.

Redstar said:
I meant canon as in they didn't happen. Their myths. Myths didn't happen. I explained that with the whole Zeus comparison.

Whether they actually happened or not is beyond the point. The point is that if the people of the Pokemon world didn't believe that Pokemon were intelligent, no one in the Pokemon world would be willing to believe in something that clearly states they are. However, people do believe in those myths, so people must also believe that it is possible that the myths are real and that Pokemon are thus intelligent.

Sparkling Dragon said:
You know what, this is like arguing with a brick wall.

QFT

Redstar said:
I'm going off canon as best as I understand it.

You don't seem to understand canon very well then, especially with how you outright say all you really know about is first and second gen and the manga. And stop saying that anything you don't like that happened after those games isn't canon. They are.

Redstar said:
There's a difference, yes, which makes the terms in no way mutually applicable. Sentience is the only word that can be used, really.

Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong oh so wrong. Seriously, why are you so thick? To be an intelligent, fully conscious being you must be sentient (which humans are), sapient (which humans also are), and self-aware (which humans definitely are), along with probably a bunch of other terms I don't know as I'm just a computer science major with an interest in some other sciences as well. A Pokemon COULD NOT be intelligent on the level of a human as I am arguing without being sentient, sapient, and self-aware which is what I have been trying to say this entire time but you keep blowing off.

Redstar said:
There's a difference between hunting, defending territory, and just being hot-headed compared to battling. All are likely to end in death, whereas Pokemon battling has no purpose other than gaining money and so on. I can't imagine Pokemon battling each other for no reason. (Though play-fighting as childhood practice for survival later on is imaginable)

Because they're hardwired to like fighting, something which I'm pretty sure was established in the anime and perhaps even the games someplace. Does it make sense in comparison to the real world? No, not really, but that Pokemon simply like fighting each other is a part of that canon you find oh so precious and if you value canon that much you better learn to accept that.

Redstar said:
The gym badges also boost stats, which suggests some sort of magical or at least technological function. That leads me to believe they have nothing to do with trust or respect.

Not anymore. As of the recent games badges no longer give a stat boost, which indicates to me that Nintendo/Game Freak has perhaps decided to start tying together the looser ends of the Pokemon franchise. As for an explanation of that in older games if you don't accept that Nintendo is retconning it, it could simply be that they encourage the Pokemon to do better as Bobandbill said.

Redstar said:
The player in XD could have badges prior to the game which allows him to control the Pokemon he gains, though I would argue they're already brainwashed... You simply transfer the strings from the enemy to yourself.

And again your lack of knowledge and refusal to research comes through. In Orre there are no gyms except for a student gym that doesn't actually give badges or serve any purpose other than training. In Orre, there are hardly even any wild Pokemon until later in XD. And no, you character didn't come from another region. In Colosseum it's said that the Espeon and Umbreon you start with have been with Wes for years, and in XD the Eevee you start with has been Michael's friend throughout childhood. All other Pokemon you get are shadow Pokemon you then purify, but they still follow you probably because they kind of owe their life to you.

Redstar said:
Well that is intriguing, but sounds rather... Stupid. A guy putting words and thoughts into Pokemon' minds by looking at their foot-prints? I'll probably have to go with that being only pseudo-canon.

Nope. No. Don't go there. You can't ignore that something is canon just because it doesn't agree with you. Canon doesn't work that way.

Redstar said:
How is Bibarel stupid? I don't know what you're getting at here.

The Mystery Dungeon games, primarily, which show Bidoof as being rather...absent minded to say the least.

You know, it would really be nice if you could perhaps look into the more recent games.

Redstar said:
I prefer the magic theory, since it fits into the canon established in the manga (again, based on the notes for the game, so game canon as well).

Except the only "magic" present in canon period is Aura, which is widely regarded as something rather mysterious and special. How the hell would magic talismans work if magic is something that barely exists in the Pokemon world? Get Aaron or a Lucario to individually enchant every badge ever made? Aura doesn't even work that way anyways.

Redstar said:
You transfer the strings of slavery. You steal the Pokemon, which is inherently wrong and illegal, and then battle them. The "purification" process is null since you're simply just transferring the brainwashing of them under your own control.

You're only stealing the Shadow Pokemon due to technicalities. The fact is, you're taking them back from people who had already stolen them. When they're still shadow Pokemon they don't care at all who controls them, and then after you purify them it can be said that they recognize that you saved them and so feel obligated to fight with you still to get back at Cypher (which has no relation to the CYPHER in my TRINITY fic).

Redstar said:
Pikachu doesn't count. Yellow isn't canon. All the other starters are quite possibly domesticated or at least zooed, meaning they'll of course be loyal and friendly.

Yes. It. Is. Perhaps not withing the normal game canon, but it is definitely at the very least it's own canon all to it's own that crosses the mechanics of the game canon with the plot of the anime. And why do you keep acting as if the anime isn't canon? It's just as canon as everything else, even if it pretty much singlehandedly smashes your entire argument.

Redstar said:
Again, I never discounted friendship as a factor in Pokemon training. It's just simple logic to conclude that badges and Pokeballs act as strings or brainwashing as well.

No, it's not. And I feel the need to remind you, yet again, that badges ARE NOT NEEDED FOR POKEMON YOU CATCH YOURSELF, SO YOU COULD CATCH EVERY POKEMON IN EXISTENCE YOURSELF WITHOUT A SINGLE BADGE AND HAVE THEM ALL OBEY YOU! Every time I've pointed that out you ignore it. How do you explain that?

Redstar said:
Yes. It may indicate that they're related to humans.

...How does something being a bipedal humanoid mean they're related to humans? You write sci-fi so you must be fully aware of the vast number of humanoids in sci-fi. Say, Klingons and Vulcans. Are they also related to humans because they look like us? Does either of them even think anything like humans?

Redstar said:
I find it pseudo-canon because it's a feature. Gameplay features are clearly not in-universe, so they're not canon.

Canon. Does not. Work that way. You can't pick and choose things based off any abstract notion you want. Breeding is a gameplay feature, so it's not canon? Dawn's new Cyndaquil, spawn of the devil that it is, must not be canon either! Shocking! The whole aspect of catching Pokemon and training them is a gameplay feature. The entire games are gameplay features!

Redstar said:
The whole "it used to be a legendary in beta" idea is a myth. But the fact that Growlithe and Arcanine are legendaries can't be denied, just like Slowpoke being a legendary can't.

Okay, I'm not sure if I can take you seriously anymore. Slowpoke? What? Are you basing this entirely off of Azalea? They're the only place and people in the entire Pokemon world who worships Slowpoke, which hardly means they're legendary!

Redstar said:
Why not? Humans are wired for cooperation, learning, sex drive, etc. Dogs are wired for loyalty, affection, etc. Chimps are wired for a male-dominated society, war, rape, etc. Why can't Growlithe be wired for loyalty? You agree with me yourself in that exact post.

And why can't Pokemon be wired to enjoy fighting just for fun?

Redstar said:
You seem to keep overlooking the many times I point out the Special manga is based off Game Freak's story notes. =/

And you seem to keep overlooking half of what I say. Conveniently, the half that doesn't agree with what you say and can't counter.

Redstar said:
Purification, as I already said, is switching the strings to the player. I never said the brainwashing was undone.

...But the games do! The games make it out, quite clearly, that when you purify a Pokemon you're freeing it of the corruption that was tainting their body and mind and which turned them into mindless fighting machines. Which is what you seem to think all Pokemon are or something.

Redstar said:
Did he just catch them? I really don't know. But it's common theory starters are either zooed for protection or domesticated, which explains their absence in the wild.

The only place they're absent in the wild is the games. In the anime they're fully present in the wild. And that they're not in the wild in the games is a gameplay feature! It's so players need to trade more to complete their Pokedex and so, especially according to what you said earlier, isn't canon.

Redstar said:
It doesn't need to be shown... The fact that nuts can be used to capture animals suggests they have some magical properties, so why can't brainwashing be one of them?

The nuts have nothing to do with catching Pokemon. They just act as a shell, that Kirt then puts the actual electronics and mechanical stuff in. The only difference between them and modern Pokeballs is that modern ones are made of synthetic plastic and use more sophisticated electronics, while Apricorn balls are handmade with a more wooden shell.

Redstar said:
My logic is the Masterball. The President gives you it, and you're intended to catch Mewtwo with it. You do, as suggested in canon by GSC... If Gold goes to the same place, you find "Berserk Gene". This suggests that when Red caught Mewtwo with the Masterball, a device already stated to have the purpose of catching extremely powerful Pokemon, the ball re-wrote Mewtwo's genetic coding and removed his "wild" or violent genes.

...How...how would that...even work? Even if something's genetic code was rewritten, it wouldn't just shed the original DNA or something. Even if it did you couldn't see it, DNA is sort of really really really small you know.

Redstar said:
None of the third versions of a generation are main canon. Crystal is most likely canon, since the Suicine event and Eusine were planted into the main continuity with HGSS, but Emerald and Platinum aren't. They're alternate continuity... The fact that the stories are completely different and events happen different than in their main-generation predecessors suggests this. Yellow did nothing but add features, so it's not main canon.

They're just as canon as the original two are, that being that only one of them occurs in the actual timeline but that one can be either of them. Timeline and canon are two rather different things anyway.

Redstar said:
I already told you: when Game Freak makes a generation that states Pokemon and humans lived exactly as suggested in the myths as history, not myths, it will be canon. Until then they are just myths, they didn't happen, and can't be used as evidence as to how humans view Pokemon.

Stop talking about them using the definition of canon. I'm not talking canonicity within the Pokemon world here, I'm talking Pokemon canon as in what Nintendo says is in the Pokemon world. They say that those myths are in the Pokemon world, and that's all I care about as whether myths are real or not are not why I even brought those up!

To sum it up! tl;dr style:
You are a rather interesting and persistent individual who needs to learn to accept when they're wrong and stop molding everything to fit your argument when it doesn't even work. You need to do the research, especially regarding the newer parts of canon you don't know about and keep making assumptions on without even knowing what you're talking about. You need to get over yourself and your own views, and realize that perhaps they may be flawed after such an overwhelming amount of evidence and contradictions to your own claims have been vaulted your way. And for the love of god, you need to learn what canon is in the context of Pokemon.

What's your character's kryptonite? As in, if your characters have special abilities, how do you balance them out to keep them from tipping towards the special snowflake direction?
Well, with Rayne, there's the whole wearing herself out thing after using her powers too much. Her confidence and everything is also a sort of double-edged sword that comes back to bite her later on (actually, right at the end of TFCv1) and after that she begins to cool down.

Fff... I just wasted most of my pre-work time writing this.

Dragonfree · Oct 3, 2009

The nuts have nothing to do with catching Pokemon. They just act as a shell, that Kirt then puts the actual electronics and mechanical stuff in. The only difference between them and modern Pokeballs is that modern ones are made of synthetic plastic and use more sophisticated electronics, while Apricorn balls are handmade with a more wooden shell.

Mm, I would argue the Apricorns themselves are definitely implied to have something to do with it. If they didn't, why would Kurt not be able to make any kind of ball out of any kind of Apricorn? The fact different Apricorns give you balls with different properties seems to indicate that the Apricorns themselves have some power to capture Pokémon.

I actually made a theory on this long ago, where Apricorns, as a defense mechanism against being eaten, contain some sort of material that disintegrates and traps Pokémon that touch it, with different subspecies doing this more effectively for different kinds of Pokémon. Modern-style Pokéballs then use a synthetic version of this basic substance as a base. Buuut that's just me.

Bay · Oct 3, 2009

Not going to really join in the debate considering I'm agreeing with the other people here, but I have one thing to say to Redstar: Nothing, Everything would like a word with you about the Sinnoh myths. :P

What's your character's kryptonite? As in, if your characters have special abilities, how do you balance them out to keep them from tipping towards the special snowflake direction?
Well Bunny is really smart, but can be a showoff at times and not realizing it until someone points that out to her.

Elite Overlord LeSabre™ · Oct 3, 2009

What's your character's kryptonite? As in, if your characters have special abilities, how do you balance them out to keep them from tipping towards the special snowflake direction?
Ruin Lisa's clothes, deprive her of restaurant food, or force her to sleep anywhere without "Inn", "Suites" or "Hotel" in the name, and you render her uber math skills useless and reduce her to a yelling, whining 105 pound blob of annoyance.

And hand her a loss at anything and the result will be crying and a lengthy monologue about how she's not cut out to do anything right.

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