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  #551    
Old October 13th, 2012 (2:23 PM).
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Scruffington View Post
    And I don't understand how you can say you don't "believe" in outer space. Look up at the sky tonight, and you'll see space. That's evidence.
    I look up at night and I see white dots, black sky, and a big white circle or part of it. I dont see planets or other galaxies or black holes or an atmosphere or anything else. And when I say I dont believe in science I mean I dont accept something just because people say its scientifically proven. Probably could have worded that better sorry.
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      #552    
    Old October 13th, 2012 (3:58 PM).
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    Welcome to all our new members :D - and Scruffington I'm so sorry, I must have missed your joining post altogether among all the stuff that's been going on lately haha.

    There's a lot of stuff I want to reply to and I will get to that, but I'm running out the door the second I finish this post, so I'll just quickly deal with the two things I find most pressing for now.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by droomph
    SR, please take me off the list. You all have proven that you will not tolerate Christians here, so I'm gonna not even try to get you to respect my view.

    You find it unintelligible? How insulting! I may believe in what could be an imaginary man, but that doesn't mean I'm a retard!

    With that, I see the atheists here on PC (or the Internet, for that matter) won't tolerate religion, and justly so.

    I'm sorry to have even ever bothered you, and I'm sorry that I ever bothered to try to explain myself and my religion.
    droomphy, please calm your farm. Of course we find religious arguments unintelligible. We're atheists. If we didn't find religious arguments unintelligible, we wouldn't be atheists. If a word as simple as that will offend you then it's probably for the best that you don't come here and upset yourself, but you will always be welcome if you change your mind.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AChipOffTheOldBrock
    Gay Marriage: Im against it. Dont really have a good reason though. I think if somebody wants to be gay than whatever. I dont care if they want to have a domestic partnership I just dont want them to call it marriage, if that makes sense.
    No, it doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Firstly, I feel the need to point out for what must be the five thousandth time, nobody ever wanted to be gay. Nobody chose it for themselves. Secondly, if you're going to have an "anti" stance on anything you have to have a reason for it. Because if you don't have a reason to be anti-something, then you have no right or cause to be anti-something. Simply stating "I don't really have a good reason" isn't really good enough when it's an issue that affects the lives of other people.
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      #553    
    Old October 13th, 2012 (5:40 PM).
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Scruffington View Post
    Marriage is not a religious institution. It's a social union and a state-regulated legal contract.
    Not exactly.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Scruffington View Post
    People were marrying before Christianity was around.
    Not really. There was a concept the social practice of bonding two people together to form unions, either political, social, or religious. But the word marriage endears it as a Sacrement, making it purely religious.

    English fails in that sense.
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      #554    
    Old October 13th, 2012 (6:33 PM).
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AChipOffTheOldBrock View Post
    Well thats your opinion I guess. I reserve my right to discriminate against homosexuals for no reason at all other than disgust.
    You may have the right to feel that way, but you don't have the right to discriminate on pokecommunity. There are many of them here, and especially in this club, so I would recommend holding back your thoughts on that subject.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AChipOffTheOldBrock View Post
    I look up at night and I see white dots, black sky, and a big white circle or part of it. I dont see planets or other galaxies or black holes or an atmosphere or anything else. And when I say I dont believe in science I mean I dont accept something just because people say its scientifically proven. Probably could have worded that better sorry.
    Buy a telescope?
      #555    
    Old October 13th, 2012 (7:13 PM).
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Shining Raichu View Post

    droomphy, please calm your farm. Of course we find religious arguments unintelligible. We're atheists. If we didn't find religious arguments unintelligible, we wouldn't be atheists. If a word as simple as that will offend you then it's probably for the best that you don't come here and upset yourself, but you will always be welcome if you change your mind.
    I don't mind that you find me unintelligible at all - I understand. I know why you're atheist. However, you all make me feel unwelcome just for being Christian. I try to explain it to you, and rather than saying "no, I don't understand so please stop" (which I could understand!) you drag me on and on, and I feel like you all don't respect me.

    I know you're trying to have a respectful conversation, but I honestly find some of the things you say insulting. And when you said "I think the general religious consensus would disagree", I felt like you weren't listening to me at all, but rather kicking me at everything that goes against your beliefs, but rarely ever mentioning what you do agree with.

    I don't know what it is, but ever since I posted my thoughts on religion, or even mentioning that I'm Christian, I have felt unwelcome.

    That's what I meant.

    And I understand, that none of you particularly understand religion. But you should at least try - I thought the point of atheism was to create a better world than one based on arbritrary rules.
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      #556    
    Old October 13th, 2012 (7:22 PM).
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by droomph View Post
    And I understand, that none of you particularly understand religion. But you should at least try - I thought the point of atheism was to create a better world than one based on arbritrary rules.
    Excuse me? I have been to Catholic schools for 7 years now. I have gone to weekly classes where their entire purpose was to explain religion for over a year in the past. Don't assume the people that disagree with you are ignorant of religion.
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      #557    
    Old October 13th, 2012 (7:38 PM).
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    Alright guys, no need to go about calling other people ignorant, or making clearly obvious trolly statements to rile others up. *deletes bunch of posts*
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      #558    
    Old October 13th, 2012 (7:55 PM).
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Toujours View Post
    Excuse me? I have been to Catholic schools for 7 years now. I have gone to weekly classes where their entire purpose was to explain religion for over a year in the past. Don't assume the people that disagree with you are ignorant of religion.
    I didn't mean you were ignorant - read again carefully. I said, don't understand.

    If you were religious, you would understand what religion is like. However, you said, if I recall, that you were atheist.

    You may have knowledge, and I respect that, but there's nothing like experiencing it.

    I don't mean to be rude, but I just feel that you choose not to understand. And I realize. However, don't bash on me. That's all I'm saying.
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      #559    
    Old October 13th, 2012 (7:59 PM).
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      Quote:
      Originally Posted by droomph View Post
      I didn't mean you were ignorant - read again carefully. I said, don't understand.

      If you were religious, you would understand what religion is like.

      You may have knowledge, and I respect that, but there's nothing like experiencing it.
      I said pretty much the same thing. But not as respectfully as you hence the deleted posts and trolling infraction. Just because you hear lectures or take a test on something doesnt mean you understand it.
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        #560    
      Old October 13th, 2012 (8:06 PM).
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      Quote:
      Originally Posted by droomph View Post
      I didn't mean you were ignorant - read again carefully. I said, don't understand.

      If you were religious, you would understand what religion is like. However, you said, if I recall, that you were atheist.

      You may have knowledge, and I respect that, but there's nothing like experiencing it.

      I don't mean to be rude, but I just feel that you choose not to understand. And I realize. However, don't bash on me. That's all I'm saying.
      I was Catholic for a long time before I decided it wasn't for me. So don't try that "there's nothing like experiencing it" as if all atheists haven't been religious in the past. That is rude, no matter how you try to couch it in diplomacy, to imply that people don't disagree with you because they actually disagree, but because they don't "understand" what you're saying.

      Saying you choose not to know/understand something is saying that you're ignorant. That's the definition of ignorant, and you're choosing to assume that we're just either not willing or not able to understand because it's more acceptable to you than realizing that we understand and don't agree with you. Why are you making that assumption? The assumption that "we just don't understand" borders on arrogant; it assumes that you must be right no matter what we say.

      Notice that in the past in this very club I have defended religion, Catholicism in particular because that's the denomination I have the most experience with. I am farther from ignorant on the subject than most anyone I have ever met, people on PC included.
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        #561    
      Old October 13th, 2012 (8:10 PM).
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        Quote:
        Originally Posted by Toujours View Post
        I was Catholic for a long time before I decided it wasn't for me. So don't try that "there's nothing like experiencing it" as if all atheists haven't been religious in the past. That is rude, no matter how you try to couch it in diplomacy, to imply that people don't disagree with you because they actually disagree, but because they don't "understand" what you're saying.

        Saying you choose not to know/understand something is saying that you're ignorant. That's the definition of ignorant, and you're choosing to assume that we're just either not willing or not able to understand because it's more acceptable to you than realizing that we understand and don't agree with you. Why are you making that assumption? The assumption that "we just don't understand" borders on arrogant; it assumes that you must be right no matter what we say.

        Notice that in the past in this very club I have defended religion, Catholicism in particular because that's the denomination I have the most experience with. I am farther from ignorant on the subject than most anyone I have ever met, people on PC included.
        Wouldnt a man/woman of science say misunderstanding is the base of a disagreement? Cant there only be one right or wrong answer? And just because you used to be Catholic doesnt mean you fully understood the Catholic Religion.

        And droomph, dear god, whatever you do dont use the word ignorant. And Toujours quit trying to put that word into his mouth.
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          #562    
        Old October 13th, 2012 (8:11 PM).
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        Quote:
        Originally Posted by AChipOffTheOldBrock View Post
        I said pretty much the same thing. But not as respectfully as you hence the deleted posts and trolling infraction. Just because you hear lectures or take a test on something doesnt mean you understand it.
        The entire purpose of a test is to prove you understand something.
          #563    
        Old October 13th, 2012 (8:14 PM).
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          Quote:
          Originally Posted by QuilavaKing View Post
          The entire purpose of a test is to prove you understand something.
          But just because you pass a test it doesnt mean you understand it. In math for example, you can learn how to use an equation to solve a problem but you dont necessarily understand what you are doing when you use that equation.
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            #564    
          Old October 13th, 2012 (8:31 PM).
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          I think you guys are just going to have to agree to disagree on the point of whether an atheist can truly understand religious views/feelings or not because you can't seem to debate this without arguing and arguments haven't gone very well in here in the last 24 hours. Please turn the discussion elsewhere--this forum isn't really for debates. Those posts were deleted for a reason and it looks like we're heading int he same direction pretty quickly, so I think it's time to start a new topic.

          Clubs are safe-havens for like-minded people and while it's okay for non-atheists to come and mingle to build an understanding between the two groups, if a full-on debate is inevitable, it belongs in Other Chat & Discussions, not here.
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            #565    
          Old October 13th, 2012 (8:59 PM).
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          (I wasn't part of it)

          I never said that you specifically didn't understand it though. I wanna make that clear before we get off the subject.

          Anyways.
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            #566    
          Old October 14th, 2012 (12:28 AM).
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          Jeez, what even happened here? I leave the house for six hours and come home to find a nuke has gone off! I went to a friend's house to watch Breaking Bad, but I should have just stayed home. There was more excitement here than even a show about a crystal meth lab could provide!

          Reading over the thread (before everything went south) I realise there isn't actually as much I'd like to reply to as I first thought. I would like to say though, that everything Barrels posts is perfectly in line with me. 10/10 would read again. He almost makes me irrelevant, as everything I have to say (other than the things I never would have thought to say, of which there are many) would be a less eloquent exercise in repetition :P.

          Quote:
          Originally Posted by Barrels
          Of everything I love – my family, my friends, the decent people all over the world I will never meet. I cannot and will not accept that these people deserve to be burned alive for all eternity for not believing in God. I will not sit quietly in Heaven as they scream below me. This is my moral stand.
          I actually teared up. You could lead a revolt on words like that, and I would follow you to the ends of the Earth.
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            #567    
          Old October 14th, 2012 (2:07 AM).
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          Quote:
          Originally Posted by droomph View Post
          (I wasn't part of it)

          I never said that you specifically didn't understand it though. I wanna make that clear before we get off the subject.

          Anyways.
          You specifically said "none of you understand religion". You should be very careful of such strong stances, especially if you intend to back down from them once people call you out on them.

          @Andy: Another not-so-feeling-filled point that I was making to my mom recently - a lot of things I love about my mom are actually considered sinful. So say God is more merciful than Christians on Earth apparently are and allow my mom and I into heaven, as basically good people. The mother that I meet there will be a sanitized version of my mom, without a lot of her personality. Although I guess I'll be sanitized into not liking those parts of her in that case too, so I won't be myself anymore either. :/
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            #568    
          Old October 14th, 2012 (2:28 AM).
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          FrostPheonix FrostPheonix is offline
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            Whoa. I got some time to come over, and I see an all out war. Well, not really but you get the point.

            Quote:
            [From Barrels I think]
            Of everything I love – my family, my friends, the decent people all over the world I will never meet. I cannot and will not accept that these people deserve to be burned alive for all eternity for not believing in God. I will not sit quietly in Heaven as they scream below me. This is my moral stand.
            Whoa. If I hadn't been a Christian I would be hoping to put that quote on my sig, its so epic. And since I've never thought of it from that perspective I can't really respond...

            Anyways. Hopefully we don't start another argument. But here goes. How do you guys (atheists reading) wrap your minds about time? Do you believe in quantum theory or something that says universes are born out of sparks of cosmic energy or something? How do you think time began? For me, I can't say I find any of the existing theories convincing. But we don't have much of evidence to help form any theories based on science either..
              #569    
            Old October 14th, 2012 (2:37 AM).
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            I'll be the first one to say that I don't understand in-depth scientific theories about how time began. Hell, I don't understand a lot of scientific theories that affect my everyday life. I hope I get to a point in my life where I have the time and energy to devote to trying to understand it, but that point is not right now, haha. x_o
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              #570    
            Old October 14th, 2012 (4:45 AM). Edited October 14th, 2012 by Keiran.
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              The beginning of time is an interesting topic albeit unremitting in its inability to bring forth concrete, proven truth.

              To imply there was a true beginning, that would require an outside force. Thus, it was not the true beginning. I find it ironic that discussing the beginning and end of the universe is much like the actual thing- an endless loop.

              We already know that space and time can dilate, so it's very possible that everything that has ever happened, is happening, and will happen has occurred and is occurring at the same moment and we are just experiencing it at the pace of a human traveling on earth. Time is relative.

              Personally, I think time is, as I said, an endless loop without beginning or end. I was not brought into existence on my birthday, and I will not cease to exist when I die. Cremated or buried, either way I will return to the earth after leaving it when the first carbon-based organism spawned. Within the earth, the elements that once served as my body will be used and changed in many different ways until one day our Sun envelopes Earth and I return to the stars to do what I did billions of years ago. As part of the Universe, I am forced to believe that this is how it works as well. If our particular Universe could speak and you asked it, "what happened before the Big Bang?" it may not have an answer much like how we have no memory of before we were born- but we still existed and so did the outside world.

              Sorry if I conveyed this poorly (which I often to about my opinions..) or if it seems out of place, I just noticed the current topic posted by FrostPhoenix and felt an urge to reply since it's one of the things I'm currently into researching.


              Quote:
              Originally Posted by AChipOffTheOldBrock View Post
              And i dont believe in Outer Space.
              I just..what? There are many people who are literally living in outer space.
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                #571    
              Old October 14th, 2012 (6:13 AM).
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              Oh... wow. I feel like there are some things I need to say before I leave the discussion, but it's tough to marshal my thoughts on everything that's been said.

              First... I honestly do feel bad if I've upset anyone with my comments. That wasn't my intention, but it looks as if I've managed to break one of the most important rules of the internet during this discussion ('don't be a dick'), and for that I apologise. Perhaps offence is an inevitable consequence of arguing about things like morality – but perhaps it isn’t, and I’m sure I could have conducted myself in a more controlled manner. So on that note...

              Thank you Shdwj for being so gracious: ‘I do thank you for reading our posts, and I thank you for being kind enough to share you views as well.’ (I wish I had your ability to remain so calm and level-headed during this type of discussion!) Thank you droomph for answering my questions, and again, I am truly sorry if I contributed to your decision to leave. Any argument that ends with a participant removing themselves from the vicinity isn’t won by their opponent, after all. And finally, thank you Andy and FrostPheonix for your very kind words.

              I’m off now. Thanks for the debate, guys – you were all awesome.
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                #572    
              Old October 14th, 2012 (8:07 AM).
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                Quote:
                Originally Posted by Keiran777 View Post
                I just..what? There are many people who are literally living in outer space.
                The post in which I tried to explain my views has been deleted and Im not going to try and do it again. Apparently my opinions are too offensive to argue.
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                  #573    
                Old October 14th, 2012 (9:49 AM).
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                Quote:
                Originally Posted by AChipOffTheOldBrock View Post
                The post in which I tried to explain my views has been deleted and Im not going to try and do it again. Apparently my opinions are too offensive to argue.
                Offensive? What? Saying that "outer space doesn't exist" is like saying "Ecuatorial Guinea doesn't exist" ._. People have been there, you know. There is nothing to argue about. That's not offensive. Just wrong.

                And your latest posts have been deleted for being too close to trolling. If that's the way your debates go in general, we'd rather be without them. There have been far much richer and interesting ones in the last few pages.
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                  #574    
                Old October 14th, 2012 (9:54 AM).
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                  Quote:
                  Originally Posted by Went View Post
                  Offensive? What? Saying that "outer space doesn't exist" is like saying "Ecuatorial Guinea doesn't exist" ._. People have been there, you know. There is nothing to argue about. That's not offensive. Just wrong.

                  And your latest posts have been deleted for being too close to trolling. If that's the way your debates go in general, we'd rather be without them. There have been far much richer and interesting ones in the last few pages.
                  Im not saying that my not believing in space is offensive. My other opinions are apparently. And I probably shouldnt do this but, whatever:

                  Just because the news says people have been to space doesnt mean they really have. I dont accept things just because people on TV say they are "scientifically proven." I would think that more skeptics would share this opinion but nope. Most just blindly accept what they are told as long as it claims to be proven by science.
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                    #575    
                  Old October 14th, 2012 (10:18 AM).
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                  Quote:
                  Originally Posted by AChipOffTheOldBrock View Post
                  Im not saying that my not believing in space is offensive. My other opinions are apparently. And I probably shouldnt do this but, whatever:

                  Just because the news says people have been to space doesnt mean they really have. I dont accept things just because people on TV say they are "scientifically proven." I would think that more skeptics would share this opinion but nope. Most just blindly accept what they are told as long as it claims to be proven by science.
                  I think you misunderstand the meaning of "science". The idea of science is trying to give an explanation for a certain phenomenon that a) logically describes why it happens, b) predicts when it's going to happen again and c) fits every instance of the phenomenon, so there aren't any exceptions for a rule.

                  The point of this is that the explanation that fits all these requirements is the best accepted one. But, if for some reason, there is an instance of the phenomenon that doesn't follow the current laws, or the theory fails to predict an instance, or the logical chain the explanation is based upon is proved false, or if a new, more complete theory is found, the previous one will be discarded. As such, if you "blindly accept" what science says, you are doing it wrong, because science itself asks anybody who cares about it to constantly check the theories and try to disprove them. If they are logically disproven, science moves forward. If they aren't, they hold stronger as their certainty has overcame a challenge.

                  Of course, your regular Joe in the street doesn't have enough knowledge to try to disprove a theory, and that's why people rely on experts to do so. But, if the millions of scientists checking theories don't find anything seriously wrong about them, it's safe to say that they are as correct as they can get. On the other hand, if someone proves some theory wrong, the general consensus will shift. Just a handful of scientists (like the couple of hundreds who support creationism) will refuse to accept it. True science means that you can try to prove everyone wrong, as long as you accept to be proven wrong if your theories are successfully challenged. Of course, if a theory has remained unchallenged for centuries despite constant research, it is safe to accept it by default and use it as a jumpstart, even if it can be eventually be proven wrong.

                  But all of this has nothing to do with "going into space". That's not only science. That's not the work of "evil TV's". That's dozens of living people going there, and talking to other people, and bringing rocks and pictures and experiments. That's thousands of satellites there, predicting the weather, taking pictures of the Earth (from where could they be taken if there is nowhere outside of the Earth??). That's the GPS positioning system. That's thousands of rockets being sent into space by dozens of countries during several decades. If all of that is part of a conspiracy, boy howdy is that an extraordinary waste of time and resources for no apparent purpose, one nobody has properly uncovered yet 50 years later.

                  And even if the discussions between Religion (believe even if there is no evidence) and science (challenge everything you can as long as you have evidence) are somewhat relevant, we are getting offtopic here so I'll stop XD
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