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Survey Should Fakemon Be Shared?

Started by countryemo August 23rd, 2017 2:20 PM
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  • 37 replies

countryemo

Kicking against the earth!

Age 25
Male
Littleroot Town
Seen June 1st, 2019
Posted September 10th, 2018
2,371 posts
9.6 Years
While I'm not a major fan of Fakemon, there are actually some good and cool designs out there, however they are locked behind single games, possibly even forever incomplete games. So what if Rom Hacks and Fan Games can share Fakemon, like maybe the Alpint line from Pokemon Sage could be found in Pokemo Clover (Decided to full 4Chan, didn't I..).


Obviously this would be down for the creator of the pokemon and game to decide as a per-usage basis. However I thought it would be really cool if there was more cross over in games. Like how Gamefreak Pokemon can be found in fan games, or like keeping it official, how say a kanto pokemon shows up in kalos, kinda shows a connected world, in which fan games lack from each other. Could be good cross marketing too.
Female
Seen 2 Days Ago
Posted February 20th, 2018
186 posts
10.9 Years
As you said, that's up to the creators of the games to decide. Generally I think people would rather have their Fakemon be in their own games, but I know that Insurgence and Azurite are planning this. I forget the exact details but Insurgence has a Delta or Crystal (or Delta Crystal?) Metagross that's going to be in Azurite. If I remember right, both games created a custom Metagross that will appear in the other game too.

VoltYellow

And then Everyone Dies™

Male
IDK...GPS isn't working..
Seen December 17th, 2018
Posted May 6th, 2018
686 posts
2.4 Years
Well It depends......
One can do so if he or she wants people who aren't that creative ( like me :p) to have some ideas or even we can use em
on the other hand many people dont like doing so to maintain uniqueness of their game

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Fairy

Female
Laverre City
Seen 1 Hour Ago
Posted 9 Hours Ago
8,302 posts
8.1 Years
As a fakemon artist - and I want to explicitly state that this is my own opinion and not necessarily reflected by any other artist - I always felt it was part of my duty as a Pokemon fan to make my art available to game devs in an effort to strengthen the custom game / artistic pokemon community. So long as I am personally asked for my permission, appropriate credit is given, and no one profits from my art, I really can't see a good reason for me personally to horde fakemon to myself. Art is meant to be shared and enjoyed, after all! It allows for more creativity to be spread throughout the community!

At the same time though, I can completely understand why some artists choose to be protective of their sprites. Often times people do steal their hard work or withhold credit, and as a result the artist is all but invisible compared to the irresponsible dev. Maybe the artist has exclusive loyalties to a dev who is a close friend? And others still are justifiable jaded. You enter a weird grey area of usage rights when you're editing another company's intellectual property.


Age 18
Female
Seen 1 Week Ago
Posted February 5th, 2019
126 posts
5.2 Years
also a fakemon artist here. fairy's points are completely valid, and while i'm the type of person who prefers to keep my fakemon for myself, it's still totally up to the artist. personally, though, i am hesitant to give away my sprites even with credit, because credit so often goes ignored. people will express their amazement at the fakemon to the dev, rather than the creator of the sprite, which can be really disheartening.

again though, that's just my personal view. there's certainly nothing wrong with people wanting to share their fakemon.

ResidentEcruteak

Age 31
Male
Finland
Seen April 6th, 2019
Posted May 20th, 2018
15 posts
3.4 Years
I hope I'm not too blunt here, but honestly...

building a game out of a massive amount of content within copyrighted IP that it's creator never has given (and probably never will give) permission to use for adapting it to personal projects and sharing the derived work, all this despite of repeated objections of the original creator of the IP for it's unauthorized use, and then feeling bad for the idea of sharing the tiny input he/she added to the game along with the IP...

I'm sure it's hard work creating fakemon or any content of your own into a fangame, but I really feel that even in the more larger projects the amount of original content is most of the time trivial compared to the IP - pokemon franchise - that everyone is using. Not wanting to despise anyone's hard work, but I was surprised no one had raised this point yet. (Also sorry for a long sentence)

But to end this post positively: do it, share your work, for good ideas are worth sharing :)
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Age 18
Female
Seen 1 Week Ago
Posted February 5th, 2019
126 posts
5.2 Years
building a game out of a massive amount of content within copyrighted IP that it's creator never has given (and probably never will give) permission to use for adapting it to personal projects and sharing the derived work, all this despite of repeated objections of the original creator of the IP for it's unauthorized use, and then feeling bad for the idea of sharing the tiny input he/she added to the game along with the IP...

I'm sure it's hard work creating fakemon or any content of your own into a fangame, but I really feel that even in the more larger projects the amount of original content is most of the time trivial compared to the IP - pokemon franchise - that everyone is using. Not wanting to despise anyone's hard work, but I was surprised no one had raised this point yet. (Also sorry for a long sentence)
the pokemon company profits off of their work, though, and are professionals creating this stuff. rom hackers are almost never paid for their hacks, and the same goes for spriters. they spend their free time creating these things.

calling fakemon, sprites, etc "tiny input" or "trivial" is kind of insulting given how much effort people put into creating them. yeah, it's nothing compared to all the programming going into the base roms, but we're also not a multimillion-dollar company.

Fairy

Female
Laverre City
Seen 1 Hour Ago
Posted 9 Hours Ago
8,302 posts
8.1 Years
I can see ResidentEcruteak's sentiment here. In the grand scheme of things, we are contributing a series of literally the smallest unit of measurement that constitutes an image to a project that seldom gains any recognition. Why should artists be protective of an insignificant thing like that?

But therein lies the issue, even if it seems like a small contribution, we create fakemon and sprites for these games because we believe in them, we want to help, we want them to succeed and gain some semblance of recognition, we want to have fun. I know you're not intentionally trying to downplay the role of sprites in game development - but when we work, not matter how hard or how little one perceives it to be, we do it for a reason. And that reason, and therefore the work, deserves respect and mention.

Sorry for getting off topic! I definitely think sharing creativity and sprite-work is better than withholding it, so again I can only really speculate the opposing side.


Seen 3 Weeks Ago
Posted August 30th, 2017
3 posts
2 Years
I really do hope fakemon artists share their work for the sake of a good fan game, for any reason to be allowed to use the designs (money, credit, etc). When a fan game includes fakemon, they've always been from a single or a few artists, because they have to use their own stuff. There's usually a few strong pokemon designs, but the rest are just there to fill the pokedex.

I put together a pokedex that uses various designs around the internet, that coherently suits a region based on my home region (Canadian Maritimes), and I included only really good designs, that use the art style used in modern pokemon games, etc. But I don't want to show it to anyone, because most of the artists explicitly say on their pokemon's deviant art pages that they can never be used. :(

I put in Cawmodore and Malaconda from Smogon (the rest of their fakemon look terrible imo, except for the dragon boat pokemon that I didn't use), Royjibiv from Sage, and the Baariette line from Uranium. The rest are Deviant Art designs that I believe never made it into a fan game yet. A total of 114 pokemon and about two dozen mega evolutions (one for each gym leader, elite four member, champion and main character).

Only one pokemon is in there that doesn't have any designs. It's a Normal/Rock chess piece pokemon that mega evolves into the chess pieces, and I want the elite four members to have each piece. Rook becomes Ghost/Rock, Bishop Psychic/Rock, Knight Steel/Rock, Queen Fairy/Rock, and King remains Normal/Rock. I call it Stroldegy; soldier + strategy.

There are a few chess piece pokemon designs out there, but they don't fit what I'm looking to do with it.

ResidentEcruteak

Age 31
Male
Finland
Seen April 6th, 2019
Posted May 20th, 2018
15 posts
3.4 Years
My concern with my post was that the Gamefreak staff are no less artists than fans that create fakemons. So, if people take the official work and use it without permission why would a fakemon artists be offended or surprised if a fakemon they add to fangame etc. gets used without permission? I think, ironically, that someone using your work without permission is, in a way, a mark of that work's greatness as no one would not care about it if it wasn't any good - it's not of course respectful towards the artist to act against his/hers will, but still...

And so what if Gamefreak staff is paid for their work? Is, for example, Kenji Sugimori's work with creating all the 800+ original pokemon designs - which we all love and are inspired by - over the course of 20 or so years, less valuable because he got paid for it? It doesn't matter if he agreed to effectively sell his rights to the work by doing it for the company; it is simply what he, as an artist, agreed to do - it is his terms of use.

However, if his and Gamefreak's, for which he worked for, wishes are not heeded regarding the use of the official work, then again why a fakemon artist - or creator of any fan content - would try to, as someone said, horde all the work for him/herself? Yes, your work is dear to you and you don't want it to be misused, but I'm pretty sure that the official artist and rest of the Gamefreak staff feel the same way.

Simply put, it's not fair to use someone's work without permission or affiliate with a project doing it and then demand the very rights to yourself that you took away or helped took away from someone.

I know it's tricky; we all would like to build on what we grew up with, but we will likely never get permission for it. I was also interested to make fangame with fakemons and all of my own, but in the end I could not find honest way to do it and respect the wishes of those people who gave all these good childhood memories. So, I dropped it and started to sough ways make completely original game idea which was still "inspired" by pokemon - I just wish more people would do it this way. All those great fakemons for example could be creatures of their own right in a world where there is no conflict with an existing IP...

calling fakemon, sprites, etc "tiny input" or "trivial" is kind of insulting given how much effort people put into creating them. yeah, it's nothing compared to all the programming going into the base roms, but we're also not a multimillion-dollar company.
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to insult anyone :( I just made a point: something that single fan adds to fangame is small compared to the pokemon franchise/phenomenom as whole (i.e not fakemons compared to rom hacking).
Age 18
Female
Seen 1 Week Ago
Posted February 5th, 2019
126 posts
5.2 Years
the main problem is the sheer difference in scale. again, nintendo is a multimillion dollar company. the people creating fakemon are hobbyists. nintendo is such a massive company that with things like rom hacking, they can't be bothered to care. it would be so, SO easy for nintendo to send cease-and-desist orders for places like the rom hacking forums here, and get all the hacks made on these forums removed, but they haven't. fakemon artists, meanwhile, put effort into their work and expect no reward or payoff from it. no, sugimori's designs aren't worth less because he was paid for them, but also it's literally his job to design pokemon.

i'm a musician. i create remixes of songs, often from scratch. i pour hours of work into composition, instrument sampling, mixing, etc. does the fact that the song that i create is based off someone else's give random people the right to use my song whenever they want? it's still my creation. it wouldn't have existed without me.

the people who create pokemon professionally operate on an entirely different scale to people who make rom hacks or fakemon for fun. it's not fair to compare them. people can do whatever they want with the fakemon they make regarding permissions, but it's not more "morally correct" for people to let their work be used.

Fairy

Female
Laverre City
Seen 1 Hour Ago
Posted 9 Hours Ago
8,302 posts
8.1 Years
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to insult anyone :( I just made a point: something that single fan adds to fangame is small compared to the pokemon franchise/phenomenom as whole (i.e not fakemons compared to rom hacking).
It's all good. :) You're not necessarily wrong in your observation, it's just that as artists we have an emotional and sentimental connection to our work -- something a company like Game Freak can't always be so invested in. That's all it is. People who need fakemon, sprite resources, custom music, and programmers rely on our content because their game cannot exist without it. And we (not trying to speak for everyone here) help because it's fun! n_n;

Some people are rightfully protective of their contributions and don't wish to share their creations, which is well within their right. I just feel it does a tiny (but understandable) disservice to the larger fakemon community.


ResidentEcruteak

Age 31
Male
Finland
Seen April 6th, 2019
Posted May 20th, 2018
15 posts
3.4 Years
Yeah I understand being emotionally connected to one's own work and making things for fun; I make music (and some programming) and I can also be quite fond and protective about it. On the other hand, regarding remixes, I generally don't make remixes, because I don't want to use someone else's work. I would challenge the notion that remix made from other people's track is the remixer's original work, because the identity of the track lies in the melodies, harmonies etc. and if remixer takes them from someone else they don't become his/hers. For example if someone made a metal remix of Ghetsis' theme, it would still be recognized as Ghetsis' theme from official game and rather than some original work - otherwise it would not be remix.

As for fakemons... they are arguably completely original: only the fact that they are usually represented as pokemon in fangames makes things fuzzy...

But what I absolutely don't get is how is it unfair to compare professional artist and big companies to fans and other people who make art etc. for fun - that is in terms of right of the artist or rights of the owner of an art? Yes, in terms of resources, professionals and companies have a big advantage, but it has nothing to do with the rights of the owner of the art(work).

I think, whether it's big company or a single fan making things for fun, both should have same rights for the work they own. For example, company has certain reasons why it wants to make certain image of itself or values it represents with the work they own; if someone uses their work without their permission or otherwise in a way that works against their values, their rights have been violated. This is however no different for individual doing things for fun with all the art or music they have themselves produced. It may be different in degree or quantity, but in essence it's the same thing.

Sorry for if my posts are long...

Edit: I would prefer not wind up in a lengthy debate; I just wanted to raise a point no one else mentioned. My main concern is crystallized to the notion that if one doesn't respect rights of the owners of art, etc. whether it's an official art of a large company or a creation of a single fan, they are effectively digging ground from under their own feet...
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Topaz Light

Non-binary
SPECIAL AREA
Seen November 22nd, 2018
Posted November 21st, 2018
103 posts
3.4 Years
My own stance on it is that it would have to go by a per-Fakemon basis, based on whether or not that Fakemon's creator is okay with other people using it in their projects. If they are, then go ahead! But, if they're not, it's best not to steal the design against their wishes.

The operative difference between Fakemon and official Pokémon in this instance is that official Pokémon very obviously do not belong to fan creators; they show up in official games, for one thing, as well as official promotional material and sites, in addition to being listed alongside other official Pokémon in online databases both official and unofficial.

Fakemon, however, almost never have that level of immediate, obvious connection to their original creators, which means there's a very real risk of them being mistakenly-assumed to be creations of somebody who simply borrowed them for a fan project. For this reason, it's really important to not only ask permission from the creators of any Fakemon you want to use—and respect the creator's answer even if it's "no"!—but to also be very upfront about crediting said original creator for any borrowed Fakemon concepts.

Have a little respect and consideration for your fellow fan content creators, y'know?
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Venia Silente

Inspectious. Good for napping.

Male
on the second floor's nest
Seen 3 Hours Ago
Posted 16 Hours Ago
816 posts
10.8 Years
Disclaimer: am no fakémon developer; I am a fanwork developer but in a probably completely different branch.

Down the line whether Fakémon should be shared is half a matter of how does the community organize their contributions and how do they pool their resources, and half a matter of what exactly is the auhor giving to the community. Sometimes you are creating a Fakémon for a specific game and there is not really any reason to have it show up anywhere else, perhaps it is too integrated to the specific plot or setting of the romhack you are creating. Other times you'd like to share your work, but it is hard to do in a way that you can still be responsible about it because you can't know who is grabbing onto your stuff. It is basically the same with OCs or with fan music for that matter.

That said, yes, Fakémon are fan creations just like original Pokémon characters are and they are basically subject to the same advantages of other fan creations. If a fan creator does not want to share their Fakémon because they feel it is going to be plagiarized or not credited properly, that is something the community itself should organize around and fix, the author is the one to make the call in the end but we should help them to.

The same way there are resources and galleries for overworld maps, fanfics and videos there could be a resource repository of Fakémon where people can register their work if they want to make it easy to check "hey where did this mon come from" and see if it is properly credited, as well as shifting the weight of proper attribution to those who use the work. Fakémon could be released with different licenses according to what does the artist allow to be done with it. Moreover it gives the community a better ability to check who is using a Fakémon without permission and probably the ability to pursue the case when it happens, if one is built. Such a model allows for assurances or assistances for a load of scenarios, not unlike what can already be done with fanfiction repositories.

Now, the idea I feel would be to promote, but not enforce, that Fakémon be shared with the community, out of their own value than because of anything else. I follow the premise that, by the sheer fact that you are developing a fanwork using assets or concepts of the franchise you like, the foundational reasoning behind it is that it is because you want to give something, be it back or new, to the community. After all it is for their consumption. As such you probably want your work to be be shared, at least in what relates to it reaching more audience.

In the end, it is about respecting the authors wishes but also as an author about respecting your community, and finding a balancing across the two, and I think having more and better tools for the authors to use would help those authors not be limited to a "hoard vs toss to the wind" mentality.

Regarding the whole "but it's using Pokémon's IP" thing, well of course it is, that's why it's called fan work. But down the line, we are not doing anything different than what the GF people are already doing - we are taking creatures that exist as part of other franchises, be them "media franchises" or existing lore - let's be honest here, less than 1/12th of the Pokémon GF has created are actually original- , and interpreting things in our own way. The only semantic difference between an established media franchise and a fanwork is that the established media franchise has lawyers to scare people off it, but in terms of what we do (and hopefully why we do) we are just like the artists behind GF.
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Esper

California
Seen June 30th, 2018
Posted June 30th, 2018
10,761 posts
10.1 Years
In the end, it is about respecting the authors wishes but also as an author about respecting your community, and finding a balancing across the two, and I think having more and better tools for the authors to use would help those authors not be limited to a "hoard vs toss to the wind" mentality.
After first seeing this thread originally I felt like I wanted to make some fakemon to give out for people to use, but I haven't done that yet because of their being no middle ground, though I hadn't been able to articulate it like you have. I've made other resources for fan games and allowed people to use them, but after a while I saw that they'd sometimes be credited to other people who had merely compiled them with other resources (innocently, I should add - I don't claim there was any ill intent), and that let me see how easily a person two degrees or more removed could have no idea who or where the art came from originally.

So now I've been wavering on whether to release my designs.
Male
CO
Seen 3 Weeks Ago
Posted July 5th, 2018
144 posts
7 Years
Quite the interesting topic...

As a fakemon creator,
I don't see any reason to not release my sprites or designs.

In the end Pokemon is not my IP and my sprites are for the community...
Yes credit is nice but honestly I would much rather see them being used in a game than just collecting dust in a folder that could get lost one day...

I can understand how other creators can become attached to their work, specially when it comes to how much work and time went into their creation...
Then to get no credit for it, can be a bummer.

Though it really is up to the one making the hack to credit all creators of the resources they used and help received...
Out of respect for the community to be fair.

Vagrant Pixels

Pixel Artist

Male
Nomadic
Seen May 3rd, 2018
Posted March 22nd, 2018
24 posts
3.1 Years
You know what? Reading this thread made me want to dig up my own fakes from years ago, give them a makeover/polish to reflect my current abilities, then host a gallery thread not just for showcase, but for fangame creators to help themselves.

Like many others here, I agree. This supports the fangame community, so why not? It's all for the hobby.

Mana

Age 28
Male
UK
Seen 15 Hours Ago
Posted 4 Days Ago
10,070 posts
10.5 Years
Whilst a project is ongoing/live, Fakemon should definitely not be shared. The creator has put in a lot of work (or perhaps money even, if they have hired a spriter to help). It also ruins one of their selling points if their unique fakemon are ripped and thrown into another game with minimal effort.

However, if a project dies or is long past its sell-by date, I would love to see more creators donate their fakemon and sprites into the community. That way we can celebrate their efforts and add to the pool of potential pokemon.
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