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Shooting in Jacksonville, Florida

ShinyUmbreon189

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No one has ever killed 16 kids by overdosing in a school, they're non comparable

You missed the point... Drugs are illegal yet so many overdose. Something that is banned in America kills more people. The problem is some people are just evil, it's that simple. Not sure why it's so hard to grasp?

gimmepie said:
I've never got the "guns don't kill people, people do" argument. Sure, a gun doesn't have intent of its own but it's a tool designed specifically to kill things. If you have a people killing people problem, having easy access to guns just exacerbates that problem and stricter gun control is still part of a solution.

Chicago. Strictest gun laws highest gun violence in the country. Nice try, but that arguments been debunked. Before you say they got their firearm from another state with lax gun laws I suggest doing more research on gun laws in America. In Illinois (especially Chicago) if your gun isn't registered and you don't have a FOID card you're going to jail and getting slapped with a felony if caught.
 
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You missed the point... Drugs are illegal yet so many overdose. Something that is banned in America kills more people. The problem is some people are just evil, it's that simple. Not sure why it's so hard to grasp?



Chicago. Strictest gun laws highest gun violence in the country. Nice try, but that arguments been debunked. Before you say they got their firearm from another state with lax gun laws I suggest doing more research on gun laws in America. In Illinois (especially Chicago) if your gun isn't registered and you don't have a FOID card you're going to jail and getting slapped with a felony if caught.

That doesn't change the fact that the majority of the guns in Chicago are bought in a state with softer gun laws than Chicago has.

Chicago is also not the most violent city in America, that title goes to Anchorage in Alaska which has the laxest gun laws in the country.
 

ShinyUmbreon189

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That doesn't change the fact that the majority of the guns in Chicago are bought in a state with softer gun laws than Chicago has.

Chicago is also not the most violent city in America, that title goes to Anchorage in Alaska which has the laxest gun laws in the country.

Most the illegal guns in Chicago are owned by gangs. They get these guns through criminal organizations which got them illegally as well. Ever heard of the Dark Web? Yeah, anyone and everyone that is knowledgeable enough to not get traced can get a firearm from there. 3D printers?

Alaska can EASILY be explained.

1. Isolation from everyone else.
2. Lack of sunlight messes with ones mental state
3. High level of drug and alcohol abuse.
4. Little to no jobs.
5. Felons can carry guns, where as in Texas they can't.
6. Their judicial system is a complete joke.
7. Dangerous environments which leads to crime for survival.

Do I gotta keep going?
 

Hands

I was saying Boo-urns
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Most the illegal guns in Chicago are owned by gangs. They get these guns through criminal organizations which got them illegally as well. Ever heard of the Dark Web? Yeah, anyone and everyone that is knowledgeable enough to not get traced can get a firearm from there. 3D printers?

Alaska can EASILY be explained.

1. Isolation from everyone else.
2. Lack of sunlight messes with ones mental state
3. High level of drug and alcohol abuse.
4. Little to no jobs.
5. Felons can carry guns, where as in Texas they can't.
6. Their judicial system is a complete joke.
7. Dangerous environments which leads to crime for survival.

Do I gotta keep going?

Good luck firing a 3D printed gun and not having it explode in your face. You can 3D print a lower for an AR, not an upper, or the fire control mechanism, or the trigger, or the bolt, or the barrel, or the carrier, or the firing pin etc.

We have both the dark web and criminals in Britain, we have relatively low gun crime thanks to our laws. Most firearms here are legally owned and well registered. Your argument is essentially scuppered by the situation in mine where we limited firearm access to those who could prove they could be responsible and saw a massive decline in gun crime as a result.
 

Vragon2.0

Say it with me (Vray-gun)
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Chicago. Strictest gun laws highest gun violence in the country. Nice try, but that arguments been debunked. Before you say they got their firearm from another state with lax gun laws I suggest doing more research on gun laws in America. In Illinois (especially Chicago) if your gun isn't registered and you don't have a FOID card you're going to jail and getting slapped with a felony if caught.
Jumping in for a second to say Shiny, that you're kinda not really addressing Gimmie's point.

I've never got the "guns don't kill people, people do" argument. Sure, a gun doesn't have intent of its own but it's a tool designed specifically to kill things. If you have a people killing people problem, having easy access to guns just exacerbates that problem and stricter gun control is still part of a solution.
He's talking about the access to a weapon designed for killing, aka (puns) the whole "designed" around that. The argument he's making is, "Why say that the tool isn't a thing in this, when it is specifically designed for killing and is being shown to be used to kill currently."

That's his argument.

Now, I'd reply with,
It's original design is for killing yes, but for a security fashion. You can argue that "it's designed that way", which...kinda is the point. It's to deal with threats. Guns were originated as the next level up from swords and enable a not as powerful person to defend self against an attacker. Now the effectiveness you can debate, however I'd argue that the person should be able to defend themselves and gun's use being abused by people doesn't negate that argument. Realistically there are 2 ways of looking at this.

1: having the defense be in your hands
2: having the defense being in a governing factor

Now, these both can exist, like someone armed going into a security place with clearance and all.
The issue I'm having with a lot of gun arguments currently is that they aren't addressing that these shootings are an "abuse" of the tool's function. Guns were a defense weapon. Being used in offense for the sake of stealing or whatever criminal act is an "abuse" of the product. This applies to other things like computers. They can be abused and used to commit crime. Should people not be allowed on it?

Now I know what you're thinking. Guns kill, computer's don't. I'd then raise the point that even with their purposes different, it still applies. You can ruin a person's life by digging up their information and stealing everything from them, like you can shoot someone's life or permanent injury. The simple thing is that, any tool can be used for some harm purposes, and guns being a mechanism of defense that potentially can kill doesn't make it an exception to the rule.

It's why I'm saying we need to help the mental health and responsibility of citizens of America and work on that front instead of going into a debate like this...that I honestly think won't solve the problem.

Just my two cents
 
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Most the illegal guns in Chicago are owned by gangs. They get these guns through criminal organizations which got them illegally as well. Ever heard of the Dark Web? Yeah, anyone and everyone that is knowledgeable enough to not get traced can get a firearm from there. 3D printers?

Alaska can EASILY be explained.

1. Isolation from everyone else.
2. Lack of sunlight messes with ones mental state
3. High level of drug and alcohol abuse.
4. Little to no jobs.
5. Felons can carry guns, where as in Texas they can't.
6. Their judicial system is a complete joke.
7. Dangerous environments which leads to crime for survival.

Do I gotta keep going?

Yes, I'm sure not even needing a permit to obtain a firearm has nothing to do with disproportionate number of people that are killed by guns.

Just like how per capita, St. Louis has more murders than Chicago. The laxer gun laws there have nothing to do with that.

I'm also sure that 60% of the guns used in gang crime in Chicago coming from neighbouring states with far laxer gun laws has absolutely no meaning. That couldn't possibly be related to how the majority of the guns in Chicago were bought outside of Illinois. The average gang banger (or regular Joe that just happens to snap) does not know how to navigate the dark/deep web or have the financial resources to get their hands on a 3D printer (which if, I have been correctly informed, cannot as easily produce a functioning, reliable firearm as believed).

I'm sure that the spike in Chicago's gun violence also has nothing to do with the changes to its law in 2013. When they both abolished the gun registry and passed a concealed carry law.

Edit: Felons being allowed to carry guns is a problem with gun control laws btw.
 
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ShinyUmbreon189

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Edit: Felons being allowed to carry guns is a problem with gun control laws btw.

Felons can what?
Yeah, you know nothing about America's gun laws. Obviously. There's no need to even post a link cause I'm rolling with this comment.

Noticed I also debunked your Alaska argument as well.

And what I meant by criminal organizations is they do gun trades through gangs in different cities. If you're a convicted felon, (which most are) you can't just go to the next state and purchase a firearm.
 
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Felons can what? Yeah, you know nothing about America's gun laws. Obviously. There's no need to even post a link cause I'm rolling with this comment.

Felons can carry guns in Alaska. You know, that thing you mentioned.
That is a gun control problem. A gun control problem that you just attributed to Alaskan gun death levels.

Noticed I also debunked your Alaska argument as well.

You did nothing of the sort. You did provide a great list of reasons why making it harder to get a gun there would be a good idea though.

And what I meant by criminal organizations is they do gun trades through gangs in different cities.

If that's what you meant why did you use obviously false arguments about the deep web and 3D printers as your go-to?
Imagine if all the cities had tighter restrictions and the gangs in every city had the same trouble getting a gun in their own as the ones in Chicago clearly do... except all the cities had the same tight restrictions so hopping along to the next state to get a gun much easier wasn't an option like it is for people in Chicago.

If you're a convicted felon, (which most are)

References please.

you can't just go to the next state and purchase a firearm.

I guess all those articles, some that have already been linked to here, must be wrong then. Somehow you, who have done no research (hence the inability to provide sources you casually tried to gloss over) and, to the best of my knowledge, no expertise in any related fields, are right when all of the evidence and common sense both suggest otherwise.
 
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Nah

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Chicago is also not the most violent city in America, that title goes to Anchorage in Alaska which has the laxest gun laws in the country.
Define "most violent city in America". The state that is basically frozen nowheresville is not the one I would have expected to get the title of most violent.

also define per capita for me, I never understood what that term means

Regarding felons buying guns, as far as I can tell Alaska itself does not have any laws explicitly barring convicted felons from buying or owning a gun, but there's a federal law that does indeed ban convicted felons from owning a gun.
 
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Define "most violent city in America". The state that is basically frozen nowheresville is not the one I would have expected to get the title of most violent.

Honestly, it's a bit hard to define, since there's a lot of different forms violence can take. In this instance though, I'm talking specifically about gun related deaths which Alaska has a disproportionately large numbers of. Alaska routinely ranks number one for the most gun deaths in the US. Obviously suicides are a big part of gun deaths total, but there's also a shitload of shootings. these statistics include in 2016, the year that Chicago's gun violence famously spiked in.

https://www.ktuu.com/content/news/O...irst-in-US-for-gun-death-rates-469962083.html
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-7-wall-st-states-most-gun-violence/71003050/

There's other sources that say the same as well but two is probably enough.

The other contender for number one is Missouri, largely thanks to St. Loius, where 660 out of every 100k people are victims of gun crimes, as opposed to the 19/100k of Chicago.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...th-worst-gun-violence/?utm_term=.49d26d59f3d0


also define per capita for me, I never understood what that term means

Per a unit of population. Basically in this context it means if you take x number of people from y city, z amount of people in that number will be a victim of gun violence.

Regarding felons buying guns, as far as I can tell Alaska itself does not have any laws explicitly barring convicted felons from buying or owning a gun, but there's a federal law that does indeed ban convicted felons from owning a gun.

I'm not totally sure on the intricacies of this one. All I know is that there are no restrictions at all on gun ownership in Alaska, felon or otherwise. I'm not sure about the interplay with federal law there because state vs federal is murky as all hell over there.
 
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ShinyUmbreon189

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Felons can carry guns in Alaska. You know, that thing you mentioned.
That is a gun control problem. A gun control problem that you just attributed to Alaskan gun death levels.

Compared to Chicago the murders from firearms is slim to none. This happens all the time in Chicago but nobody ever hears about it, maybe because it's black on black crime?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...nce-leaves-71-shot-11-dead-weekend/914141002/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...ory.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.57b78ec89e85

Please explain to me again how Alaska is the most violent state. This is a city with strictest gun laws in the country!


If that's what you meant why did you use obviously false arguments about the deep web and 3D printers as your go-to?
Imagine if all the cities had tighter restrictions and the gangs in every city had the same trouble getting a gun in their own as the ones in Chicago clearly do... except all the cities had the same tight restrictions so hopping along to the next state to get a gun much easier wasn't an option like it is for people in Chicago.

You obviously don't seem to grasp many gang leaders have connects to the black market. This is how they obtain their firearms so no it won't do good. Or lots are stolen. A majority of gang members cannot obtain guns legally due to known gang affiliation or criminal history.

And again, gangs are the cause of most of the crime in America. Tho it's an older link it's still relevant today.

https://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/FedCrimes/story?id=6773423&page=1

link stating the crime and stolen firearms in gangs

https://www.atf.gov/news/pr/dozens-...d-joint-federal-state-and-local-investigation



References please.

Didn't come across any links stating the percentage of gang members with felonies but reading the above should answer it for you.

I guess all those articles, some that have already been linked to here, must be wrong then. Somehow you, who have done no research (hence the inability to provide sources you casually tried to gloss over) and, to the best of my knowledge, no expertise in any related fields, are right when all of the evidence and common sense both suggest otherwise.

Maybe it's because people outside of the country I live in know little to nothing about what actually goes on in my country and our cultures but act like they do? Ever think of that??
 
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Compared to Chicago the murders from firearms is slim to none. This happens all the time in Chicago but nobody ever hears about it, maybe because it's black on black crime?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...nce-leaves-71-shot-11-dead-weekend/914141002/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...ory.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.57b78ec89e85

I can't get access to the second article, but from what that link tells me, it's not going to disprove anything I've said. The first one certainly doesn't.

Please explain to me again how Alaska is the most violent state. This is a city with strictest gun laws in the country!

Because statistically it has more gun violence per capita? Also Chicago doesn't have the strictest gun laws at all, despite how frequently certain politicians and their friends in the "media" like to pretend that's the case. Also worth noting that article supports a lot of the other things i've said too.




You obviously don't seem to grasp many gang leaders have connects to the black market. This is how they obtain their firearms so no it won't do good. Or lots are stolen. A majority of gang members cannot obtain guns legally due to known gang affiliation or criminal history.

You obviously don't seem to grasp that 60% of the guns used in Chicago gang shootings were obtained in cities outside of Illinois. It doesn't matter what windy path they take into Chicago, the point is that it's too hard to get guns in Chicago so the gangs you like to keep bringing up have to go to places where guns are more easily obtained. Even if they don't buy them legally, the guns are still originating from a legal source that can only filter down so easily to the illegal buyers because they get into circulation so easily to begin with.

You also seem to not understand how the black market works. The majority of gangs are not enormous organised crime syndicates like the big cartels with loads of cash. Most street gangs, like the ones in Chicago, are composed pretty much entirely of people in a low socio-economic bracket who, even allowing for criminal activity, most of them do not have the money to really have access to the black market. The thing about the black market, is that it's very, very expensive. That's why cartels are so rich, because it's impossible to get drugs legally they can charge whatever they want. Black market guns are expensive, I've shown you links explaining his multiple times in the past.

And again, gangs are the cause of most of the crime in America. Tho it's an older link it's still relevant today.

https://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/FedCrimes/story?id=6773423&page=1

It doesn't matter if gangs are responsible for 100% of the crime, that doesn't disprove that reducing access to guns would reduce gun crime. It proves that gangs like to use guns.


and yet 60% of the guns they're getting their hands on come from outside Chicago. Almost like it's hard to steal a gun or otherwise illegally obtain them when there's less around. I will remind you, gangs aren't manufacturing guns. All those illegal guns are being made and sold legally to begin with. If less guns were being made and sold, less would find their way onto the black market.

Also there's a well-known trend, I've given you links about it before as well, of gang members or affiliates who do not have criminal records buying a weapon, giving or selling them to fellows with records and then reporting them stolen. So even if that statistic of yours actually disproved me in any way, that would have distorted its numbers.

Didn't come across any links stating the percentage of gang members with felonies but reading the above should answer it for you.

Strangely enough, being articles on totally different topics, they don't.



Maybe it's because people outside of the country I live in know little to nothing about what actually goes on in my country and our cultures but act like they do? Ever think of that??

This doesn't actually answer my point at all, but since you bring it up I guess I'll point out that living outside the US doesn't have any impact on my access to information about it. I clearly know a lot more than you're trying to give me credit for, because I can do research, and quite frankly the argument that not living in the US somehow invalidates anything I've said is the weakest in a series of very weak arguments.

By that logic, palaeontologists don't know about dinosaurs because they weren't alive in the cretaceous, physicists don't know anything about particles because they've never been sub-atomic and astronomers don't know anything about space because they've never been there. It's logic tat doesn't hold up.
 
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Define "most violent city in America". The state that is basically frozen nowheresville is not the one I would have expected to get the title of most violent.

also define per capita for me, I never understood what that term means

Regarding felons buying guns, as far as I can tell Alaska itself does not have any laws explicitly barring convicted felons from buying or owning a gun, but there's a federal law that does indeed ban convicted felons from owning a gun.

By my reckoning, EVERY city in America has that potential. When everyone's potentially armed, it's only a matter of time before someone snaps and shoots someone for absolutely no reason. Would put me into the edge at least...
 
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By my reckoning, EVERY city in America has that potential. When everyone's potentially armed, it's only a matter of time before someone snaps and shoots someone for absolutely no reason. Would put me into the edge at least...

Again, even from the the same side of the debate as you, I've demonstrated that this is statistically not factual. It doesn't help us to go making wild accusations that facts don't back up. The US has a gun problem but there's definitely places better than others. There's not a lot of shootings in Seattle or Washington D.C. if you want to compare them to the likes of St. Louis, Anchorage... or yes, Chicago.
 
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Again, even from the the same side of the debate as you, I've demonstrated that this is statistically not factual. It doesn't help us to go making wild accusations that facts don't back up. The US has a gun problem but there's definitely places better than others. There's not a lot of shootings in Seattle or Washington D.C. if you want to compare them to the likes of St. Louis, Anchorage... or yes, Chicago.

True... But I'm still avoiding USA on a principle as long as that gun amendment exists...
 
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