S&M Fakemon Project [Stage III: Name and Movepool]

Typing: Water
Ability: Immunity
Base Stats:
HP: 70
Atk: 90
Def: 80
Spd: 125
SAtk: 100
SDef: 65
BST: 530

Here's the first idea. The idea here is similar to Starmie (which actually wasn't intentional but whatever). You send this in on something like Salamence or Skarmory and then attack. A Timid version of this with a Life Orb 2HKOes 252 HP/0 SDef Rotom-A (with Leftovers) while Hydro Pump does the same thing, only it doesn't need Life Orb. Obviously Gengar can't take those hits well either. Choice Scarf variants are a problem though, as nothing it has could OHKO unless it ran Specs or something. This originally had Swift Swim, but it would make blocking its Rapid Spin virtually impossible, so it was taken out. Immunity blocks it from Toxic Spikes.

Typing: Rock / Poison
Ability: Guts / Levitate
Base Stats:
HP: 95
Atk: 85
Def: 60
Spd: 105
SAtk: 70
SDef: 125
BST: 540

I like this one much better than the previous one. Rock/Poison was admittedly something of a sop to the outvoted Poison-type attacker supporters, and while this can't attack, it does have some noteworthy advantages. First of all, the special defense lets it beat Gengar and Rotom while Guts gives it the ability to take Will-O-Wisp. Unlike the previous idea, this focuses on switching in directly on Spin blockers instead of other various Pokemon. The Defense is meant to be the Achilles heel, especially with all of the Jirachi, Metagross, and Scizor running around. Indeed, my main gripe with this is that it is practically contributing to Dragon/Steel centralization. Nevertheless, this will absorb Toxic spikes with guts, but the Ground weakness will be there.

Typing: Fire / Ground
Ability: Insomnia / Inner Focus
Base Stats:
HP: 110
Atk: 80
Def: 100
Spd: 60
SAtk: 95
SDef: 95
BST: 540

This is my personal favorite, and from what I could tell, it was a favorite on the server when I introduced it earlier. This has pretty incredible bulk, but it is hurt considerably by its defensive typing. However, the typing is very good offensively, and with 95 base Special Attack and presumably Earth Power and Fire Blast as well, this could be something of a mini Heatran. The difference is that this has Rapid Spin, and with enough Special Attack to clear out Rotom-A in two hits, blocking that Rapid Spin will be difficult (though certainly not impossible). Other positive benefits include a nice way to deal with Electric-types and more importantly, Jirachi. Jirachi is such an annoying piece of crap that I added Inner Focus solely for the ability to stop Iron Head spam. Insomnia can be used to absorb take Sleep and take on Breloom. Fire typing means it avoids a burn. This gives it considerably utility in the OU metagame on top of its Rapid Spinning ability. With its typing and average offensive stats, however, it's hard to imagine that this will be broken.

Wouldn't we want a non-Water-type for the role since we already have two Waters able to spin? Having a different type means teams that can't fit Starmie or Tenta most likely won't be able to fit the Fakemon on their team either.

Anyway, Fire / Ground would be great imo.

Devi said:

I also support it being Dark-type and having low sp. def for balance, but I see no point in it being slower. If you RS, you are already risking taking a Wisp to the face regardless (since you're not damaging any crap by spinning anyway), and by being able to Crunch before the Wisp means you're playing a much bigger mindgame with the opponent's spinblocker- do they stay in for the Crunch, or do they switch to something that allows you to Spin but counters your stuff (or spin and etc)?

Click to expand...

I support this^. It makes the most sense and encourages skill (something which the game lacks so much of these days in general) to remove hazards i.e both the spinner and the ghost have a chance of coming out on top depending how they are played and not just making certain strategies and Pokemon useless, which as far as im aware the latter WAS NOT the aim of this project.

Honestly again, "why are we trying to eliminate play styles and strategies?" which is essentially what all three of them do, stall and offense loses entry hazards as a result since they become non viable. I thought the aim of this was to add things to the game, not take them away. First one just overwhelmes the Rotoms/ghosts with sheer power and speed and can easily spin on anything due to its immense speed so it doesn't even matter if you misspredict, second one has guts and amazing sp.def so no ghost can even touch it and the last one is immune to the whole standard Rotom set and even offensive ghosts cant touch it due to its good s.def.

Dont kill me but i don't support those concepts. =[

EDIT :

I may support the second one if it had lower s.def.

Typing: Steel/Dark
Ability: Levitate/Intimidate

HP: 105
Atk: 60
Def: 95
Spd: 80
SAtk: 100
SDef: 95
BST: 535

Steel/Dark typing provides some good resistances which are balanced out the 4x fighting weakness, as well fire and possibly ground depending on its ability. 105/95/95 defenses are nice and solid, but not overwhelming considering all of its resistances, and can be tailored to deal with either physical or special attackers. Intimidate and Levitate give it a lot of diversity in terms of what it can switch in on to have a chance to remove hazards. Levitate is good in particular so it doesn't get wrecked by Spikes switching in. Base 100 special attack along with a dark STAB lets it reliably deal with Rotom-A and Gengar (though Gengar can drive it out with FOcus Blast if it gets in safely) and somewhat checks Latias as well.

Dark Azelf said:

I support this^. It makes the most sense and encourages skill (something which the game lacks so much of these days in general) to remove hazards i.e both the spinner and the ghost have a chance of coming out on top depending how they are played and not just making certain strategies and Pokemon useless, which as far as im aware the latter WAS NOT the aim of this project.

Honestly again, "why are we trying to eliminate play styles and strategies?" which is essentially what all three of them do, stall and offense loses entry hazards as a result since they become non viable. I thought the aim of this was to add things to the game, not take them away. First one just overwhelmes the Rotoms/ghosts with sheer power and speed and can easily spin on anything due to its immense speed so it doesn't even matter if you misspredict, second one has guts and amazing sp.def so no ghost can even touch it and the last one is immune to the whole standard Rotom set and even offensive ghosts cant touch it due to its good s.def.

Dont kill me but i don't support those concepts. =[

EDIT :

I may support the second one if it had lower s.def.

Click to expand...

We aren't trying to eliminate stall -_-. Again I'll refer back to Advance when Stealth Rock and Toxic Spikes didn't even exist and the premier Spiker was doomed if Magneton came within 50 miles of it. Dusclops was the only legit Spin blocker and oh boy did that suck. Good Spinners like Starmie, Claydol, and Donphan were around. I don't know what makes you think that eliminating hazards would somehow destroy stall or offense since they just cancel each other out. They would have to redefine themselves (especially stall), but wow, it's not exactly impossible to adapt again. I always thought that the improved Spinner concept was friendly to all styles since all styles (balanced included) rely on Stealth Rock, and all can utilize Spikes effectively. I also think that you're forgetting that there is a part of this project specifically designed to prevent something from being broken or "overcentralizing" the game. I really have no idea how you're concluding that this someone limits play styles when every single one of them relies on hazards in some way.

As for the individual concepts, I can't really argue with the first one. However that was one of the "throwing it out there" ones and I didn't refine it much, so I'd rather not bother with it.

The second one I again see your point. However, I really couldn't see any other way to do it since I'm pretty strongly against a Dark or Ghost type (which I'll get to in a moment). I'm okay with lowering the Special Defense in exchange for higher attacking stats, though.

The last one is where I really disagree though. First of all, it wouldn't exactly kill it to lower the SDef a little if you absolutely feel it's necessary. More importantly though, this can't even beat the Ghosts unless it's running a consider SAtk investment, so it won't exactly be bulking itself up. Rotom-W can Hydro Pump it you must remember, and Rotom could just run more Special Defense. And of course, without recovery bar Rest (which I was planning on for the movepool), how hard could it possibly be to wear down? I actually think that would add to the game since it's not just stall mindlessly Spiking and then waiting for the opponent to die. Stall is probably the easiest style to actually use since it's so straightforward, so forcing stall players to actually get rid of counters to its strategy instead of just stalling them out is a more skillful approach. After all, that's what offensive players have had to do since DP came out and even before that in previous generations. How that somehow detracts from the game I do not know. The fact that it can't even switch safely into LO Gengar or Rotom-W makes me even less convinced that it would be broken. Of course, we have the testing & editing periods to work that out too. Oh, while this isn't hugely important, it doesn't really beat Mismagius/Dusknoir/Spiritomb well at all, so it's not like it's impossible to stop or something :|.

As for my opposition to a Dark-type Pokemon, "why not just use Scrappy if nothing can even come in on it?" That's seriously like giving Tyranitar Rapid Spin. Also, I'm not very familiar with CAP, but I do believe that the whole Crunch mindgame was tried with Colossoil and it ended up being pretty damn strong (aka too strong). Also lol bad name Colossoil. Nevertheless, I think we should at the very least force our Fakemon to have to work for getting rid of hazards. The threat of Crunch alone basically guarantees Rapid Spin if you simply bring it in on something that isn't a Ghost since they will be forced to switch a Spin Blocker in...on something with a STABed Crunch...for some reason I don't see that working out too well.

Anti said:

Typing: Water
Ability: Immunity
Base Stats:
HP: 70
Atk: 90
Def: 80
Spd: 125
SAtk: 100
SDef: 65
BST: 530

Here's the first idea. The idea here is similar to Starmie (which actually wasn't intentional but whatever). You send this in on something like Salamence or Skarmory and then attack. A Timid version of this with a Life Orb 2HKOes 252 HP/0 SDef Rotom-A (with Leftovers) while Hydro Pump does the same thing, only it doesn't need Life Orb. Obviously Gengar can't take those hits well either. Choice Scarf variants are a problem though, as nothing it has could OHKO unless it ran Specs or something. This originally had Swift Swim, but it would make blocking its Rapid Spin virtually impossible, so it was taken out. Immunity blocks it from Toxic Spikes.

Click to expand...

This looks pretty good. Maybe it would work better as a Ghost Type-which is immune to Normal Type moves-would work better, and compensate for it's incredibly low HP, Defense, and Special Defense. Besides, since this is sort of a Starmie clone, it would mix it up a bit as well.

D_A and I discussed this at length on the server. As our previous posts indicate, there was a big disagreement about how this should be approached. As far as I could tell (I had to leave before we could really finish), the general things we agreed on are that:

1.) This should be able to beat Rotom, but not in a drastic fashion (like a CB Weavile or Tyranitar does).

2.) This should not be able to switch in on Rotom without risk, though it should be able to handle most of its attacks.

3.) This should not be Stealth Rock weak. Seriously.

I think that from these three basic characteristics we can strike a balance between "we might as well have used Scrappy" and "how is this an improved rapid Spinner if Rotom still beats it?" As such, I have edited the Fire/Ground concept accordingly (the other two I don't really consider viable for the reasons D_A outlined earlier):

Typing: Fire / Ground
Ability: Inner Focus
Base Stats:
HP: 105
Atk: 75
Def: 110
Spd: 95
SAtk: 95
SDef: 60
BST: 540

I hope this is a good enough balance. This actually does better against Jirachi, but the Special Defense leaves it vulnerable to something like Gengar predicting a Rapid Spin. However, 95 base Special Attack is plenty to threaten any Ghost out there except maybe Dusknoir (lol). It fears a Hydro Pump from Rotom-W and Shadow Ball from any of the variants. The Speed was hiked up here specifically to outpace Rotom-A and Lucario. I'm thinking that maybe making this a Lucario check is making too strong, so I'm hoping for some feedback there. Otherwise, it's more or less the same. I'm still a bit conflicted with regard to the ability. Certainly Inner Focus will be there, but I don't know about a secondary one.

Swinoob said:

This looks pretty good. Maybe it would work better as a Ghost Type-which is immune to Normal Type moves-would work better, and compensate for it's incredibly low HP, Defense, and Special Defense. Besides, since this is sort of a Starmie clone, it would mix it up a bit as well.

Click to expand...

Aaaaaaaaaand remind me why it has to be immune to Normal moves?

Also, I like the look of the Fire/Ground fellow. It seems to be the best idea we have thus far. ;;

plus Jirachi dom'd

Another thing I think we need to remember is that we can play around with base stats while testing this guy. Sure we want to get it close to where we want it, but we'll prolly find reasons to change stuff later. I like the new spread Anti has, although its encounters with Rotom will mostly be determined by the moves it has access to.

Originally Posted by Swinoob
This looks pretty good. Maybe it would work better as a Ghost Type-which is immune to Normal Type moves-would work better, and compensate for it's incredibly low HP, Defense, and Special Defense. Besides, since this is sort of a Starmie clone, it would mix it up a bit as well.

Vrai said:

Aaaaaaaaaand remind me why it has to be immune to Normal moves?

Click to expand...

I'm not even gonna answer that. :P Anyways, A Fire/Ground type Spinner sounds great, especially if it can keep both Rotom and Lucario in check. I wouldn't really say it's that overpowered, though, with it's 4x weakness to Water.

bored in school today so here's one i guess

Typing: Ice / Poison
Ability: Heatproof / Filter
Base Stats:
HP: 90
Atk: 103
Def: 60
Spd: 112
SAtk: 115
SDef: 60
BST: 540
Moves it needs to have: Rapid Spin, Ice Beam, Recover, Ice Shard

The idea behind this concept is to easily beat Rotom, and it can even switch in on its standard set (though a burn/paralysis would obviously suck). However, it has problems with its horrible defenses. An option here is Ice Shard...D_A has expressed fears that without Stealth Rock to hinder it, Salamence would become far too powerful to contain. With Ice Shard and 103 base attack, Salamence is certainly threatened. This could also run a Choice Scarf set if you like wasting Pokemon.

Typing makes it Stealth Rock weak...incredible, I know. However, with many people fearing a broken Fakemon, I figure this is a good way to balance things out. Poison typing does let it absorb Toxic Spikes on contact though, so that way it won't be poisoned just for trying to spin stuff away. The abilities might seem a little odd but basically they in some ways make up for poor defenses. Obviously, this is no defensive Pokemon, but it should help with things like Flamethrower from Salamence or something (though I haven't run any calcs so I mean).

Lacks the utility of the fire/Ground so I don't like it as much. Speaking of which, I edited that concept a bit. This CAN switch in on standard defensive Rotom which is a pretty legit knock against it since it's basically a direct counter to defensive Rotom-A. However, Shadow Ball and Hydro Pump still threaten it, and honestly, Rotom-A has dominated long enough. Well, here ya go:

Typing: Fire / Ground
Ability: Inner Focus / Flame Body
Base Stats:
HP: 85
Atk: 70
Def: 120
Spd: 103
SAtk: 95
SDef: 67
BST: 540

Okay, the HP and Attack were bother lowered, but HP is the significant one. This hurts it Special Defense more (though I did raise the Sepcial Defense some so that might have little effect anyway). On the contrary, Speed and Defense are up. This gives it all that Speed in the world since it beats stuff like Luicario. My one worry with this edit is that people might use it as an attacker, as Ground and fire are great STABs to have. However, I don't really see the merit in doing this when bulky Waters still give it hell and 95 base Special Attack still is not spectacular. The Defense gives it a nice chance to bury poor Lucario and use ScarfTar as set-up bait (assuming it's not locked in on EQ).

With the higher Speed, Jirachi is less of a pain and Inner Focus is less necessary. for this reason, I added Flame Body as a way to catch some physical attackers and possible burn them. I thought about Immunity but decided against it--scaring away every Spiker in the game and beating Rotom is enough of an advantage.

Well, that's the concept. I'll still take suggestions and make changes, especially with the first one. You guys should start submitting some more too unless there is really as much harmony as there seems to be with this Fire/Ground one.

Yeah Ill submit one soon, I just have a lot of homework going on so hang in there. On the other hands, all of your concepts have been really good and some of them are rather nice. Just as a wide question for all, what typing do you all think should be for the spinner? Should it be dark or should it be ice? Which types give it the boosts it needs.

Just some discussion and maybe some ideas for other people that can pick up. Personally, I like Dark/Poison and I support it if you are capable of striking a delicate balance.

Thoughts said:

Yeah Ill submit one soon, I just have a lot of homework going on so hang in there. On the other hands, all of your concepts have been really good and some of them are rather nice. Just as a wide question for all, what typing do you all think should be for the spinner? Should it be dark or should it be ice? Which types give it the boosts it needs.

Just some discussion and maybe some ideas for other people that can pick up. Personally, I like Dark/Poison and I support it if you are capable of striking a delicate balance.

Click to expand...

Well I've already expressed my opposition to a Dark or Ghost type for the "we might as well use Scrappy" deal...I honestly don't know how you can strike a balance when it has probably the two most useful features a Spinner could possible have: Toxic Spikes absorption and a STAB move that is super effective on Ghost-types. You could always lower its attacking stats but then you're going to have Cresselia with Rapid Spin basically, which is a pretty poor Pokemon. Personally, I don't see it working out. Wasn't that Colossoil thing bad enough for CAP anyway?

EDIT: As for good types, anything works really except for, IMO anyway, a Pokemon that hits Ghosts for super effective damage. I was actually considering a Tinted Lens pure Bug-type earlier as a way to clear the field while not being a sweeper since pure bug-types typically have poor movepools. Since striking a balanced is so hard with this concept, you can experiment with a lot.

Anti said:

Well I've already expressed my opposition to a Dark or Ghost type for the "we might as well use Scrappy" deal...I honestly don't know how you can strike a balance when it has probably the two most useful features a Spinner could possible have: Toxic Spikes absorption and a STAB move that is super effective on Ghost-types. You could always lower its attacking stats but then you're going to have Cresselia with Rapid Spin basically, which is a pretty poor Pokemon. Personally, I don't see it working out. Wasn't that Colossoil thing bad enough for CAP anyway?

EDIT: As for good types, anything works really except for, IMO anyway, a Pokemon that hits Ghosts for super effective damage. I was actually considering a Tinted Lens pure Bug-type earlier as a way to clear the field while not being a sweeper since pure bug-types typically have poor movepools. Since striking a balanced is so hard with this concept, you can experiment with a lot.

Click to expand...

Well the thing with Colossoil was that it had a monstrous base 122 attack and 95 speed to back it up along with great physical STAB coverage, so that really hurt the OU metagame.

I actually think that if you created a Dark-type that was as afraid of Rotom as Rotom was of it it would be pretty balanced. I was getting an idea of a Water/Dark type that can 2HKO RestTalk Rotom-H at best whilst Rotom-H can 2HKO back with T-bolt and both had the same speed, but that would really result in a hax issue. Still, I think expanding on that would be a great idea, if anybody wants to work with me on it. (95 HP/ 75 SpD coupled with water typing allows the fakemon to be 2HKOed by T-bolt from RestTalk Rotom iirc)

Typing: Poison / Normal
Ability: Sticky Hold / Water Veil
Base Stats:
HP: 90
Atk: 69
Def: 120
Spd: 92
SAtk: 107
SDef: 62
BST: 540

All fired up and ready to go is my weird poison/normal typed spinner (lol stab spins). The poison typing was chosen first seeing if I wanted a spinner, I'd want it to be able to suck up the poison on the switch in. After that, possibilities came up for the second typing to see what could take on ghosts for rapid spinning a few being steel,dark, and normal. I really didn't like the 4x ground weak seeing how popular Earthquake is so I threw out steel. Dark was what really shined for me but after awhile I thought eh, I'll try something else. So THEN I got onto Normal after remembering we were joking around about the stab but then I remembered, Normal is immune to ghost! Not only that but with these two typings, I could discourage the use of specs and band seeing how bad the stabs are and I mean, I'm not going to revenge with an inventory of Gunk Shot and Return either haha.

Next came the stats which basically came by itself. I started with pixie stats so I actually had somewhere to start. Threw in some Gengar, Rotom, and Dusknoir calcs to see how it started out and started lowering things accordingly. I managed to play around until it worked out to my liking. This is pretty rough though so any help would be appreciated ^^

So the abilities I chose are actually a bit obscure, sticky hold and water veil but imo, these things have some useful niches in the spinning world. First is sticky hold, because nearly any ghost can trick scarf/band/specs though it may not be the BEST idea of course i.e. Gengar, Rotom-A, Froslass, Mismagius. As you can see, any of these can trick over an item and mess us up later so I thought maybe sticky hold. The other ability water veil, prevents burn! So what happens when you play against a Rotom that can only do damage using thunderbolt? Eases prediction and allows free switch ins to get rocks up. When playing gar, this also limits its options as well leaving it with the risky focus blast and stabless tbolt.

.Gamer said:

ONE-HUNDRED AND NINETY TWO BASE SPEED????????????????????????????

That sure as hell better be a typo.

Click to expand...

Yeah it is, I fixed it, it's only supposed to be 92.

Thoughts said:

Typing: Poison / Normal
Ability: Sticky Hold / Water Veil
Base Stats:
HP: 90
Atk: 69
Def: 120
Spd: 92
SAtk: 107
SDef: 62
BST: 540

All fired up and ready to go is my weird poison/normal typed spinner (lol stab spins). The poison typing was chosen first seeing if I wanted a spinner, I'd want it to be able to suck up the poison on the switch in. After that, possibilities came up for the second typing to see what could take on ghosts for rapid spinning a few being steel,dark, and normal. I really didn't like the 4x ground weak seeing how popular Earthquake is so I threw out steel. Dark was what really shined for me but after awhile I thought eh, I'll try something else. So THEN I got onto Normal after remembering we were joking around about the stab but then I remembered, Normal is immune to ghost! Not only that but with these two typings, I could discourage the use of specs and band seeing how bad the stabs are and I mean, I'm not going to revenge with an inventory of Gunk Shot and Return either haha.

Next came the stats which basically came by itself. I started with pixie stats so I actually had somewhere to start. Threw in some Gengar, Rotom, and Dusknoir calcs to see how it started out and started lowering things accordingly. I managed to play around until it worked out to my liking. This is pretty rough though so any help would be appreciated ^^

So the abilities I chose are actually a bit obscure, sticky hold and water veil but imo, these things have some useful niches in the spinning world. First is sticky hold, because nearly any ghost can trick scarf/band/specs though it may not be the BEST idea of course i.e. Gengar, Rotom-A, Froslass, Mismagius. As you can see, any of these can trick over an item and mess us up later so I thought maybe sticky hold. The other ability water veil, prevents burn! So what happens when you play against a Rotom that can only do damage using thunderbolt? Eases prediction and allows free switch ins to get rocks up. When playing gar, this also limits its options as well leaving it with the risky focus blast and stabless tbolt.

Click to expand...

I see no way of this beating Rotom so I don't see how it could work as a concept. In fact, this thing really loses to Rotom with that horrible Special Defense and what is honestly pretty bad typing. A Normal/Poison Pokemon with Water Veil is also kind of...illogical. Definitely needs to worked out before this can be seriously considered since at this point Starmie looks like a more appealing Rapid Spinner choice.

Syndrome said:

I guess Ill post this (its ass though)

Type: Ghost/Steel
Trait: Levitate/ Heatproof/Insomnia
HP: 100
Attack: 70
Defense: 90
Special Attack: 110
Special Defense: 95
Speed: 75
BST = 540


The way I see it, this isnt too broken. If you go with levitate, I see things like Overheat from rotom (if people still use it on Rotom idk what the metagame is like) and F-Blast Heatran eating you. If you use Heatproof EQ users beat you. And I was thinking that we could give it a poor offensive movepool (but not like Huntail poor) so people wouldn't go around thinking "ZOMG I R HAS THE SAME SP. ATK AS GAR SCARF SCARF SCARF SCARF SPECS SPECS SPECS".

Just my two cents , will elaborate more if needed

Click to expand...

A few things:

1. Needs two abilities. Presumably Insomnia is the one that will go since you didn't mention it but I don't know, it's your concept.

2. Overpowering. Those are really balanced (and good) defenses with pretty incredible defensive typing. I mean wow, 110 base Special Attack Shadow Ball is going to murder any Ghost-type if they're stupid enough to try to come in, which brings up the obvious "why not just use Scrappy?" deal. And it can come in on so much...including the hazards it spins away. It takes like, no damage with Levitate.

3. Ironically, this can't get past itself very well since it blocks Rapid Spin and has good Special Defense and HP. The concept is literally self-defeating. At least it can run HP Fire or ground but wow, the ability toss-up even makes that hard.

4. Dragon/Steel centralization is bad. And wow, this could be one hell of a Steel-type.

To improve this one I'd just change the typing since that's basically what the problem is. Too much power for sure.