Debate The anti vaxx or anti mask debate and COVID 19

Started by Sandalphon September 16th, 2021 8:35 PM
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Sandalphon

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Hi n'yall. Before we get started, this is a reminder to keep it calm and civil. I was tired last night but please follow the rules!

There's many who refuse to get the vaccines for many reasons. A few I've noted are:
A legitimate fear of needles. (Was me until my health went kaput and now I have to get blood tests all the time)
Distrust.
Spread of misinformation regarding it. There's a lot of fear mongering out there!
They're young and don't feel they need it.
Socio economic status - Some can't afford the day or two off without pay due to side effects.

However, covid is still ravaging the world, hospitals are full and can't give any other treatments. Therefore, there's a lot of anger surrounding it and a lot of misinformation. The latest instance has people taking Ivermectin, an anti-parasitic, and since covid isn't a parasite, it's hurting them way more.

Do you believe vaccines or masks should be mandated?
What's your opinion on "vaccine passports"?
How do you feel health officials can go about giving other's confidence in vaccines or masks?
What can be done to curb the spread of misinformation?

happy halloween!
from the empire

Nah

Age 29
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It was one thing during the early days of the pandemic, when we all had no idea how bad covid was, when there was little data on things, but it's been long past the point where people should still be resisting masks and vaccines and still believing that the pandemic is a hoax. It's pretty plain to see that vaccination works and is not dangerous.

People keep screaming about their rights being violated, but for whatever reason fail to understand that choosing to not get vaccinated or not wear a mask is not a "personal choice". If choosing to not get vaccinated only affected that person, there wouldn't be much reason to give a muk about people making that choice, but that's not how it works. You do not have the "right" to put other people's right to health and safety at risk, especially over something as trivial as getting a free vaccine shot. The only valid excuses or concerns are the medical ones like being immunocompromised or pregnancy and so on.

If you don't get vaccinated, you remain a possible transmitter of the disease. If you do get the vaccine, the virus can't easily replicate inside you, and so you are very unlikely to spread it. This is epidemiology 101, even I know this and I ain't all that smart. And sure, people do things all the time that aren't good for their health, but again, (some of) those things only affect themselves and not other people. If my drinking habit eventually gives me liver cancer or something, that's my problem and mine alone. Not getting vaccinated is more akin to smoking really--smoking doesn't just hurt the smoker, it can hurt others around them too.

But attempting to talk sense into people is, like with all political issues, always wasted effort.
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colours

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the worst thing to occur as a result of antivaxxers' refusal/conspiracy spreading of the vaccine is clogging up hospitals. :s it's gotten so bad to the point where a lot of hospitals have no space anymore for people who actually need care, like cancer patients, patients needing life-saving surgery, and so on.

it's a truly unfortunate but catastrophic consequence of a constant spread of misinformation. there's no shortage of stories of health care workers being verbally abused by antivaxxers demanding ivermectin treatment and other such ineffective treatments simply because they believe they know better than the doctors who are ~* paid off by Big Pharma *~. @[email protected] infuriating, really.

Caite-chan

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It honestly should be no different than the whole No shirt, No Shoes, No Service rule. If you are out in public you wear a mask. Once you are home in private I could give two muks about what you do. But then again you have people who can't even follow the law sooooo.

But its to the point where people who don't wear masks or get the shot are putting everyone else at risk. Someone needs a much-needed surgery but can't get it because you're taking up a bed because you were to stupid to do something very simple. I've had both of my shots and I will STILL wear a mask out in public. I'm protecting me and everyone else. I always have a mask in my pocket and put it on before getting out of the car.

All these parents throwing a hissy fit about their kids having to wear a mask in the school should be slapped...hard. If you refuse to get the shot and wear a mask then I'm sorry you don't deserve to go to the hospital when you get COVID. Let's face it you wouldn't need to had you just done a few simple things but you throw a fit about your rights being taken away.
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Ivysaur

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I mea, obviously the problem here lays squarely at the feet of people who should know better and/or are vaccinated themselves (cough cough Republican Party cough Fox News cough) and who nonetheless spend hours upon hours creating doubt and pumping lies about a scientifically proven product for economic and political gain, treating their audiences/voters as disposable piles of meat who might as well die for all they care as long as they keep making money and hurting Biden's approval rating. And those are, by far, the worst kind, as they have a lot of credibility with their audience. They don't even need to prove or disprove anything, just throw an ungodly amount of rumours, misunderstood claims from misread papers, and turn every secondary effect into "it's possible that YOU AND YOUR LOVES ONES WILL DIE FROM THE VACCINE maybe, or perhaps just get a headache BUT ALSO DIE" until hesitant people just decide that the fear of "what if" is too great for them.

Secondly, you have to blame, sigh, modern technology that allows your local Flat Earth weirdo to be able to extend his "inject horse dewormer on yourself to protect yourself from the plandemic created by the chinese and the CIA" nonsense to millions online rather than the poor hundreds of people he would be shouting at from his usual street corner. Without that, the reach of anti-sciencers of the kind who simply believe that gravity does not exist and that illnesses are caused by humours and fixed by strange holistic rituals would be tiny.

And finally, especially in the US but very much in a lot of places all over the world, you have a whole lot of conspiracy-minded people who not only don't trust anything or anybody, but believe that the mainstream media, all politicians, and anyone official, important or branded an "expert" are actively trying to harm you. And so, if all of them say that X is good, well, it must be bad, and all those random reports by nobodies on ghastly websites saying that the vaccine makes you sterile or whatever must therefore be real.

There's some overlap between those groups, but honestly, without the horrific help from Group 1, the number of unvaccinated people would be much smaller, because they are the ones amplifying what the cranks scream at other cranks and making it sound believable and real. Enough to cause serious doubt and hesitancy on millions and millions of people who would have otherwise taken the vaccine if only XXxxxaliencospiracy88475xxXXX and his fellow tinfoil hatters were the only ones spewing nonsense and fear.

VisionofMilotic

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This is a general reminder per the debate rules to make sure we remain civil at all times. We can debate what kind of measures should be implemented as well as health risks and consequences without debating the intelligence of others or joking about violence, that's not the kind of forum this is supposed to be and if anyone needs a refresher on the guidelines you can read up here.

https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=413251

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Ninetales

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I believe they should get vaccinated. Think less about yourself and more about the potentially vulnerable and immuno-compromised individuals around you. Remaining susceptible to a life threatening virus and simultaneously remaining a potential carrier is illogical.


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adventure

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I've heard people say to let the anti-vaxxers pay all costs associated with their covid-19 infection by themselves, and don't let insurance cover it. Would that scare some into taking it after all?

Of course it is way different if someone has medical reasons for not being able to safely take the vaccine.

Dawn

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If people don't want to be vaccinated then that is their right and that is totally fine, but they need to accept that this is going to have consequences - like being banned from places like clubs, or larger social gatherings like concerts, and having it be known that they are a danger to other people who want to make a different choice. Vaccine passports, mandatory face coverings, and other restrictions that are for the safety of other people are things that everyone should comply with, so these people shouldn't be exempt from this either.

I don't think it's right to force people to have the vaccine, but I do think that this choice should be made public knowledge and that this should have repercussions to keep other people safe. Don't force that choice onto others, please.

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Caite-chan

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So what about places like school? That seems to be the big issue now.

For parents who don't want to mask their kids what should happen with them? I mean it damages the kid more than people think. A lot of the issue for kids is depression if they are isolated for to long. But if they don't wear masks then something needs to be done about that and parents are going to throw a fit if they have to do anything different.
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Sandalphon

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So what about places like school? That seems to be the big issue now.

For parents who don't want to mask their kids what should happen with them? I mean it damages the kid more than people think. A lot of the issue for kids is depression if they are isolated for to long. But if they don't wear masks then something needs to be done about that and parents are going to throw a fit if they have to do anything different.
There are parents who wish to keep their kids from school and homeschool them but they're being told their child will fail if they do. I think they should be given the choice to homeschool so long as they keep contact with the teacher.

Children's ICU's are filling up and I'm worried as the school year continues. Children can get very sick and I feel like people should at least have their children wear masks, think of it as a piece of clothing!

happy halloween!
from the empire

Dawn

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In schools masks should be compulsory, end of story. Parents should not be able to stop their children wearing masks regardless of their personal feelings - it's a public place and everyone needs to be protected. Plus not being able to wear a mask could be incredibly isolating for the child in question - kids are cruel and they WILL pick on those that go against the trend. It's probably bad enough as it is in some quarters if kids know that someone else's parents are anti-vax, and with 12-15 year olds being offered the jab in this country from 22nd September I'm sure there is going to be an "us vs. them" mentality going on with kids that have the jab vs. kids that don't. If everyone wears masks it'll at least go some way towards preventing children from being isolated for their/their parent's beliefs.

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Sandalphon

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That's an excellent point! Children should not be mistreated because of their parents' choices they have no control over.
It would make it safer, especially for really young kids in kindergarten and such. Viruses spread throw elementary schools so quickly.

happy halloween!
from the empire

adventure

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Children's ICU's are filling up and I'm worried as the school year continues. Children can get very sick and I feel like people should at least have their children wear masks, think of it as a piece of clothing!
Especially since there are tons of cool designs for fabric masks, children can def use them as fashion statements or to show that they're a pokémon fan or stuff like that :3 just like adults can ahah

Tsutarja

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Public schools in the United States have had inoculation requirements for decades depending on which grade you are in. Many folks are fine with this. To not be fine with adding the COVID-19 vaccination to this list of requirements is hypocritical, and just makes you look stupid if you have gotten your "shots" at 5, 12, and 18 years of age but won't get a jab for our generation's worldwide pandemic.

ASG

ANTI-SPAM GUN

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>A legitimate fear of needles.

This isn't a legit excuse, it's what people who don't want to get the vaccine are saying to appear as though they have an actual medical reason. I don't like needles either, but a vaccine shot takes only seconds, the shot itself doesn't even hurt.

>Distrust.

Which is a symptom of falling for misinformation, ignorance, or "doing your own research" because apparently 10 minutes on Google is equal to a multi-billion dollar disease research program stocked with hundreds, if not thousands, of medical experts and researchers.

>Spread of misinformation regarding it.

The GOP has dropped hundreds of millions of dollars on its anti-science propaganda campaign. But here's the thing, you should never listen to politicians or a political campaign when it comes to science when nearly the entire worldwide community of scientists, doctors, researchers, and medical experts are literally begging people to get vaccinated. That Republican politician that fundraises specifically on spreading anti-science misinformation was vaccinated as soon as they could be but uses this massive misinformation campaign to trick people into giving them money.

>They're young and don't feel they need it.

Lame excuse, this is what selfish people do, and people who struggled with high school biology. The reasons to get vaccinated are to greatly lower *your* chances of getting the disease, getting symptoms of it, and spreading it. Spreading it is the other key reason. Just because I'm a healthy young person that exercises and stays hydrated doesn't mean the 20-year-old with immune system issues is also safe. Lowering the chance of accidentally spreading it to someone who's higher risk is a large part of being vaccinated. People using this excuse either don't care about anyone else, or they just don't understand what the word infectious means.

>Socio economic status - Some can't afford the day or two off without pay due to side effects.

The vaccine is free and available at pharmacies pretty much everywhere 7 days a week. This isn't like the bank where it's only open 9-5 Monday through Friday. The vaccine has been available for everyone for nearly 6 months now, there's no way someone hasn't had at least one free day during this 6 month period.

There are only two actual reasons someone isn't vaccinated, either they fall below the approved age range or they're immunocompromised. That's it. The mRNA shots don't use fetal cells so claiming you have a religious exemption means nothing.

Get vaccinated.
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tigertron

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Whilst I'm unsure about mandatory vaccines for the entire population, I do feel that health and social care workers should be given the option of having a vaccine or being dismissed, unless they have a good reason, as they will come into contact with vulnerable people on a regular basis. However, the only issue with mandatory vaccines for health and social care workers is that we're already suffering severe staff shortages (thanks to Brexit...). It's a very difficult situation but it didn't have to be. I personally don't understand how you can work in the healthcare sector and be anti-vaccine.

As for masks, well...masks in shops, schools and other indoor areas - absolutely.
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I don’t believe in the vaccine being mandated and I don’t think vaccine passports are a good idea. Whether someone gets the vaccine or not is their choice and I don’t feel any particular way about either group. I personally don’t think others are responsible for my health. If I feel I need to protect myself from others I will wear a mask and take the necessary precautions.

Inky

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My thoughts are pretty much the same as Dawn’s - don’t get the vaccine if you don’t want to, sure, but don’t then complain when there’s consequences to that. There’s more than enough research to show the vaccines work and are safe.
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i don't think they should be mandated but this outbreak has shown how incompetent and ****ty a lot of people are, especially those in charge. i used to think that anti-vaxxers were a fringe minority of the population and while they still are, they're far greater in number than i realized. it's sad how a ****ing virus became a partisan issue. nobody wants to hear from a cowardly centrist but i don't support perpetual lockdowns like the left in my country, nor do i dismiss this virus as your average flue like the right. i feel like the left are too eager to give up their freedom (to leave the house, go to work and live your damn life) and the right are far too petulant and refuse to get the vaccines cause they just don't wanna. the fact that it's still a choice in most places proves that you don't have to so you're just being a petty asshole if you choose not to. you're not sticking it to the man by not getting vaxxed. if you're going to be anti-vaxx then at least be so cause you're dumb and anti-science instead of deluding yourself into thinking you're taking a righteous stand.

WHO also share some of the blame for how they dished out misinformation near the start of the outbreak. for example i don't believe for a second that they thought masks wouldn't help and later discovered otherwise, they just wanted to procure enough masks for hospital staff and other important personnel, which is understandable but it was still a transparent lie and just one of several things they had to walk back on.

Priscilla Kelly

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I also find it funny that some anti-vaxxers are saying taking the vaccine means your taking the mark of the beast. And me sitting there reading this and going, "what," we're not in the middle of the tribulation period just yet people. I honestly think all people should get vaccinated that are able to if they really care about their health. While I know it is possible to still get covid even if you are vaccinated, but it is very rare as it is common knowledge that most of the people getting covid aren't vaccinated. So I would question the anti-vaxxers who say the vaccines aren't effective.

Also I will point out that most big business ironically support the vaccine mandate, and lets be honest there is already vaccine mandates in place anyways and that was before covid was a thing and anti-vaxxers want to complain about the vaccine mandate when they have no choice but to get their children vaccinated against major illnesses just to get them in school. I think these anti-vaxxers don't really care about other people's well being and I'm disappointed in them over that, people need to learn responsibility.

Gabri

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Years upon years of scientific research and money thrown into said research that was scrutizined by their own peers throughout all those years, decades and even centuries are superior and more trustworthy and correct than your feelings, opinions and stuff you find on social media through your aunt's cousin and 5 minutes of mukty Google searches.

Get the damn vaccine and wear your damn masks. No one has the right to endanger the lives and health of those around them for the sake of "freedom" or "personal liberty".

Wolf in Sheep's Clothing

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I have friends who don't want to get vaccinated and while I can understand some people still being afraid and unsure, it upsets me greatly to read the countless stories about unvaccinated individuals (who are able to get vaccinated but chose not to) taking up a lot of resources in hospitals and the consequences of that. /: Everyone deserves access to medical care regardless of vaccination status, absolutely, but I do feel like anyone who can should make an effort to get vaccinated to help support those who are immunocompromised/unable to get vaccinated/etc. If we plan to participate in society and be near others (which is pretty much unavoidable) getting the vaccine is doing your due diligence.

don’t get the vaccine if you don’t want to, sure, but don’t then complain when there’s consequences to that
This is how I feel. If someone doesn't want to get vaccinated then that's entirely up to them, but I personally feel they can't complain if certain things in society require it. Especially for job positions like teaching and healthcare where you're in close proximity to many people.

Nah

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The whole "don't get it but don't complain" thing sounds nice on paper, but doesn't really work in practice. Sometimes the consequences aren't enforced, if they're even there to begin with. In the US it's just been one big uncoordinated mess, with each state being allowed to handle things however they want, even though this is a global pandemic. These people are just possible disease vectors waiting to happen, they will inevitably come into contact with other people.

Like, at this point, most people who are still saying that they're uneasy about getting vaccinated or are still waiting for "something", never wanted to get vaccinated in the first place and are just clinging to one of the few excuses that sound valid, even though it's getting thinner and thinner with every passing day. What could anyone possibly be waiting for? Half the world is vaccinated at this point, the data is there. How many stories do people need to hear about people who thought that covid is a hoax or that vaccination is dangerous and then get covid and voice their regrets about not taking it seriously/not getting vaccinated? How many kids have to get sick and potentially psyducking die?

Yesterday on the news they had a bit about this teacher who is all sad and angry over how he is likely going to lose his job because he refuses to get vaccinated (and I assume also refuses to submit to weekly testing since that's something the governor here threw in when he started a vaccine mandate). And it's like....I'm really supposed to feel sorry for this guy? I'm really supposed to believe that I'm the asshole here for thinking it's a good thing that people, who can't bring themselves to do the right thing and even go as far as attacking people who support covid restrictions or laugh at kids who talk about how their grandparents died from covid, are actually suffering harsh consequences for once in this pandemic? Psyduck that muk.
Nah ンン
“No, I... I have to be strong. Everyone expects me to."