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  #1    
Old 3 Days Ago (9:18 AM).
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    Maybe my expectations were too high, but everything about this anniversary celebration has been a letdown to me.

    SM went out of its way to tease and reference Kanto. The protagonist moves to Alola from Kanto, Lillie travels to Kanto at the end, and an adult Red/Blue even appear in the Battle Tree. Yet, we're getting SM rehashes instead of a return to Kanto, rendering all of these teases and references meaningless and worthless.

    The anime pulled a similar trick with Movie 20. They called it "I Choose You," and teased itself as a revisioning of Ash's early travels and his connection to Ho-Oh. Yet again, it turned out to be nothing but a cheap marketing gimmick, and it's yet another generic movie designed to market the latest Event Pokémon (Marshadow) while also replacing the iconic original cast with random nobodies.

    Why is this franchise so reluctant to revisit its past in a meaningful way? Sure, it loves to tease and reference Gen 1/Kanto, and it certainly loves to market and give new gimmicks to Gen 1 Pokémon. But, when was the last time we actually revisited Kanto as region? Or, revisited any of its characters in a meaningful way?

    It's becoming increasingly evident that past regions will never be revisited outside of a single remake. The anime also seems to have a similar philosophy in regards to past companions. They get their one cameo (Misty in AG, May in DP, Dawn in BW) and then are never seen or heard from again. Although, if Iris' lack of appearances in XY is any indication, they don't even get that much anymore.

    As I said, maybe my expectations were just too high. (The 10th anniversary was even more of a non-event.) But, I can't be the only one who feels this way.
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    Old 3 Days Ago (9:51 AM).
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    I definitely agree with your theory in that Kanto is getting way too much special treatment when it comes to celebrating an anniversary milestone in Pokemon. Kanto references were everywhere in Sun & Moon, on top of Alola Forms being distributed only to 1st Gen Pokemon.

    It's even become evident in the anime that we're barely getting any mention of Ash's previous companions once their generation ends. It's so sad because they are characters we love (well, most of them) but the anime staff seems to want us to forget them which is such an insult to those who have grown up watching the anime.

    Basically, I don't like the whole marketing based on nostalgia thing. It did get some people back into playing when both GO and Sun & Moon came out, but I'm one who didn't like the approach at all because it felt like a middle finger to any fans of a region that wasn't Kanto.

    I also hate the 20th movie for literally attempting to be a reboot by replacing Brock and Misty with two new scrappy characters and has now also turned into an advertisement for Marshadow. I really hated how the 20th anniversary was handled, now that I look at it, because Game Freak and Nintendo only cared about nostalgia and I feel saddened by that.
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    Old 3 Days Ago (10:26 AM).
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    Well, the Legendary Wi-Fi events were nice, if nothing else. But honestly, I had zero expectations for the 20th Anniversary, so I can't say I'm particularly disappointed. Another instalment in the 3DS titles I don't care for, more anime I'm not interested in. I was quite surprised that Gen I finally got a Virtual Console release - and on the 3DS no less! - but let's face it, they should have been amongst the first titles Nintendo released on the 3DS VC. Too little, too late.

    Pokemon cannot possibly disappoint me any further, because I've stopped having expectations for the kind of quality I used to be able to take for granted from the series. It's hit rock bottom and it can't go any lower. Nowhere left to go but up...or flailing on the ground, I suppose.
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    Old 3 Days Ago (10:28 AM).
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    I only cared about it for the monthly distributions of mythical Pokémon which finally allowed me to complete my Pokédex.

    Other than that, I agree that it was kind of dull. I never hopped on the bandwagon for Pokémon GO, and in retrospect Sun and Moon weren't as great as I'd hoped they'd be. The anime looked promising for awhile, but it eventually devolved into the same old thing, and even got worse with the introduction of Alolan Ash. I haven't watched a movie since 4th Gen though, so I can't comment on that-though from what I've heard, even from this thread alone, I'm not missing much. xD
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    Old 3 Days Ago (1:37 PM).
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      Quote:
      Originally Posted by Hikamaru View Post
      I definitely agree with your theory in that Kanto is getting way too much special treatment when it comes to celebrating an anniversary milestone in Pokemon. Kanto references were everywhere in Sun & Moon, on top of Alola Forms being distributed only to 1st Gen Pokemon.

      It's even become evident in the anime that we're barely getting any mention of Ash's previous companions once their generation ends. It's so sad because they are characters we love (well, most of them) but the anime staff seems to want us to forget them which is such an insult to those who have grown up watching the anime.

      Basically, I don't like the whole marketing based on nostalgia thing. It did get some people back into playing when both GO and Sun & Moon came out, but I'm one who didn't like the approach at all because it felt like a middle finger to any fans of a region that wasn't Kanto.

      I also hate the 20th movie for literally attempting to be a reboot by replacing Brock and Misty with two new scrappy characters and has now also turned into an advertisement for Marshadow. I really hated how the 20th anniversary was handled, now that I look at it, because Game Freak and Nintendo only cared about nostalgia and I feel saddened by that.
      To be fair, Kanto fans aren't really getting it great, either. You see shallow references here and there, and Gen 1 Pokémon get loads of marketing and gimmicks, but the region itself and its characters are largely ignored. Kanto hasn't been in any game since HGSS (2009), and it hasn't been the focus of a game since FRLG (2004). And, you have to go all the way back to Crystal (2000) for the last time it was in a game that wasn't a remake.

      Of course, other regions don't have it any better. I doubt we'll ever see either Johto or Hoenn again, and Sinnoh and Unova will similarly vanish once they get their token remakes.

      It's become increasingly evident that TPTB don't see any value in past Gens beyond their most marketable Pokémon. Regions and characters are considered disposable and replaceable, while certain old Pokémon continue to get new gimmicks and get forced into new games for the sake of selling toys and other junk.

      The anime clearly operates under the same philosophy. Characters are seen as disposable and infinitely replaceable, and shallow monster marketing takes precedence over everything else. That is why Misty, Brock, and Gary were dumped for random nobodies in Movie 20. Honoring them and their role in Ash's early years was considered less important than marketing new toys for Lucario and Piplup.

      I don't have a problem with nostalgia itself, but I do have a problem with exploiting it for shallow marketing purposes while refusing to revisit the past in more meaningful ways.
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      Old 3 Days Ago (3:11 PM).
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        Like Alakazam17, I think Sun and Moon were nowhere near as good as I hoped they would be. Most of the time playing the game is wasted on completely unnecessary cutscenes every few minutes (which, as I've said elsewhere, aren't needed "to help young players" since most of us who played Generations I and II were between 7-12 years old when those games first came out and we managed to get by playing those just fine), plus many other changes were made just for the sake of change rather than being done out of actual necessity.

        More than the other events planned for the 20th Anniversary year, I was very happy to see the Generation I Game Boy games finally re-released to the 3DS Virtual Console, as well as being able to get the digitally remastered first three movies on DVD/Blu-ray - the first time these classic Pokémon movies were made available in widescreen to American consumers since their theatrical releases since Warner Bros. refused to release them on DVD in widescreen (only allowing us to get pan-and-scan versions) when they held the rights to said movies (prior to late 2009, which saw the last release in a three-movie set using the same pan-and-scan only transfers from the early 2000s, which was particularly insulting as more and more households were getting widescreen HDTVs as a result of the transition to all-digital broadcasts that was completed for full-power over-the-air television stations on June 12 of that year.).
        To be honest, I had been anticipating that the first three movies would be seeing home media releases once again since they were made available for streaming on Pokémon TV for a couple of weeks per film in the summer of 2015.
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        Old 3 Days Ago (4:33 AM).
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        so if i understand correctly, your concern is more that you're frustrated/annoyed because we haven't visited Kanto for the 100th time (even though we technically have in the form of VC releases)?

        what would count as "visiting Kanto in a meaningful way"? you haven't really elaborated on this. one of the biggest reasons i don't see a point in revisiting kanto again is that, in my eyes, it's nearly impossible to significantly revamp kanto in a way that would be "meaningful", because then it would barely count as the kanto that we know and people would then complain about kanto being changed too much etc because you can never make the fanbase happy.

        the kanto pandering is really a marketing tactic to get people who were playing Pokemon GO who haven't played pokemon in years a chance to play sun/moon and largely, it actually worked! that was the entire point of it. i will say, for TPCi's part, that was rather impressive marketing to get people who were once disinterested in the games back on the hype train again.

        "other regions aren't getting it better" - uh, what? Gen II is getting a VC release (which is a Pretty Big Deal because a LOT of people have wanted that), we literally JUST visited Hoenn again in Gen VI so there's no reason to visit it again at any point in the future, which really leaves Sinnoh as the next oldest games to probably (most likely, imo) be remade. don't have any sort of expectations for unova because Gen V are still way too comparatively new to be remade, but we'll see.

        i dont have any comment in regards to the anime because i don't particularly pay attention to nor care for the anime as much as i used to, but in regards to the gaming, those are my thoughts.

        also fwiw grimsley out of every character you can think of in unova made a cameo in sun/moon. colress made a cameo, cynthia (to no one's surprise) made a cameo, red/blue (obviously) made cameos, this time as adults! i must say, in regards to the games, i cant see how there's supporting evidence for your claim that past characters are forgotten about. you can battle wally (remember back when wally was a forgettable character in the original Gen III?) . dexio and sina, probably characters that no one really bats an eye to, made cameos. sure, they might not be super important characters (really though do you expect game freak to bring back lysandre in alola?), but that's even more supporting evidence that Game Freak doesn't necessary forget about past characters, even moreso the niche characters which is a nice surprise.

        at the end of the day, have whatever opinions you want about sm. i dont really care about that. but this all really feels like a thinly veiled (not even that veiled really) attempt to trash newer pokemon games because "where is muh kanto".
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        Old 2 Days Ago (8:05 AM).
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          Quote:
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          at the end of the day, have whatever opinions you want about sm. i dont really care about that. but this all really feels like a thinly veiled (not even that veiled really) attempt to trash newer pokemon games because "where is muh kanto".
          Where in the world did I "trash" newer Pokémon games? Talk about an overreaction.

          Yes, I am an older fan, and my main focus is Kanto/Johto, but that's not the point. I dislike the idea that *any* past region must be permanently left behind and never return outside of a single remake. (I hardly count re-releases of ancient games as being "revisits" of past regions.) It feels more glaring with Kanto/Johto since their last remake appearance is now 8 years old (HGSS), but the same thing will happen with other regions. I don't expect to see Hoenn ever again after ORAS, and Sinnoh/Unova/etc. similarly won't get anything else besides solitary remakes years down the road.

          And, I hate to bring up this bag of worms again, but also think of the people who got invested in Kalos and the Team Flare storyline, only for the games to end up moving on to Gen 7 without giving Kalos any kind of followup. Personally, I could care less about Kalos and whether or not XY sequels exist, but I can still recognize that fans who did got ripped off.

          I hate this idea that the past must always be left behind and that it can never be honored or recognized except in the most superficial ways possible. All it does is teach you to never get too attached to a region or character and never care about any particular storyline, because they'll inevitably be disposed of and replaced.
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            #9    
          Old 2 Days Ago (8:08 AM).
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            So did you guys want more Kanto or no Kanto? I’m not following anymore…

            I, for one, was not disappointed by the 20th Anniversary. I was not expecting a full Kanto reboot and honestly that would’ve been a waste of time; there are better ways to pay homage to the older regions than revisiting them. I think SM did that in a unique way.

            I think we can say now that the general goal of the 20th Anniversary was to not just celebrate the franchise but to also bring it back under the attention of the general, uninterested or uninformed audience, and I think they did that marvelously. Pokémon GO was the best thing they could’ve released in the past year as it made the Pokémon mania from the beginning days resurface. Not only did older fans come back to the franchise by seeing the creatures they’re more familiar with, it also brought in an entire new generation of young Pokémon fans that will probably stick with the franchise for at least a few years now. Same goes for the release of RBY on Virtual Console and SM featuring a lot of homage to Kanto. Even if you don’t like the choices they made, you have to admit that the Anniversary created a lot of new publicity for the franchise and gave it a massive boost in popularity.

            In my years of being a fan I’ve never seen so many people talking so openly about playing Pokémon, whether it’s GO, SM or even trading card games. And that makes me very happy. Because of this, I see the Anniversary as huge success for the franchise as a whole.

            Having critique on SM doesn’t mean that that the entire 20th Anniversary was a letdown. That is taking it a bit too far. Every game has is positive and negative parts but it should not speak for the whole franchise suddenly.

            Only thing I’m disappointed about is the reboot movie replacing Misty and Brock for... Whatever those weird figures are. Mainly because it is a very weird choice and actually alienates the older audience that would’ve been interested in the reboot. But other than that, I think GameFreak approached things greatly.
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              #10    
            Old 2 Days Ago (11:27 AM). Edited 2 Days Ago by colours.
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            Quote:
            Originally Posted by BettyNewbie View Post
            Where in the world did I "trash" newer Pokémon games? Talk about an overreaction. :rolleyes2:
            yeah, talk about an overreaction, alright. "wow sm third version i am extremely disappointed/does game freak really want gen 7 to go out with a whimper/where is muh kanto". this strikes a very similar tone to the one this thread currently has, but that's just me.

            Quote:
            Yes, I am an older fan, and my main focus is Kanto/Johto, but that's not the point. I dislike the idea that *any* past region must be permanently left behind and never return outside of a single remake. (I hardly count re-releases of ancient games as being "revisits" of past regions.) It feels more glaring with Kanto/Johto since their last remake appearance is now 8 years old (HGSS), but the same thing will happen with other regions. I don't expect to see Hoenn ever again after ORAS, and Sinnoh/Unova/etc. similarly won't get anything else besides solitary remakes years down the road.
            i dont understand why you're (apparently?) so dissatisfied with RBY/GSC VC releases. Do you really want to see a Kanto/Johto re-remake that badly? If the VC releases are of any indication, it seems rather apparent to me that Game Freak does not have any intention on doing that. What would even be the point, though? What would change in a suppose Kanto/Johto sequel? All the characters that we know are older? Again, I'm asking for specifics (and I've asked for specifics in your last post in a different thread as well) and you've either refused to provide them or just flat out don't have any answer for that, which seems to me that you're complaining for the sake of complaining and not having any solid foundation for your reasoning.

            And as someone who's first games were Hoenn games, with all the love that I have for Hoenn, I personally really don't want to seem them after ORAS. I don't want to see Sinnoh after it gets its remake. The same applies to Unova. These games would have already had their time in the spotlight, so why re-revisit them? That doesn't make any sense to me. Again, specifics. What do you have in mind? Do you really think that visiting old regions again would be paying those regions proper homage?

            Quote:
            And, I hate to bring up this bag of worms again, but also think of the people who got invested in Kalos and the Team Flare storyline, only for the games to end up moving on to Gen 7 without giving Kalos any kind of followup. Personally, I could care less about Kalos and whether or not XY sequels exist, but I can still recognize that fans who did got ripped off.
            This is probably the only point I agree with you on. As much as I personally wasn't a fan of Kalos, it should've gotten a third game. I can only speculate that Game Freak were rushing on finishing up SM to celebrate the 20th anniversary and an XY third game or sequel would've conflicted with that. Make of that speculation what you will.

            Not responding to that last point because it's just nothing but cynicism and I don't think your mind would be changed regardless of what anyone says on that.
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              #11    
            Old 2 Days Ago (1:45 PM).
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              I thought the 20th Anniversary was good in terms of Pokemon Events (even if I already had all of the legendaries) and merchandise. They did some interesting marketing things for Go and other stuff, which was entertaining. I felt like it was more expansive rather than catering to its core fanbase.

              Also, we have to consider that we're not going to get a Pokemon Greatest Hits where multiple regions are either referenced or available in a single game. It kind of defeats the purpose and lessens the value of any one region.

              Pokemon tries to reinvent itself while making nods to the past because their core idea is that they get a new fanbase every 3-8 years. That's why the anime doesn't revisit older characters. That's why the regions in the games don't get much more after their remake. On the topic of the remakes, it's revisiting an old region, providing a twist, and helping new players fall in love with an older game while veteran players get to see the region/game in a new light.

              Would I love to see another Gen II remake? Sure! Do I actually want it? Not really. I'll just play GSC or HGSS.
              Would I love to see Brock or Iris in the anime again? That would be super cool! But if they actually (re)introduced an older character, many new fans would be confused because they didn't see all 300 episodes Brock was in.
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                #12    
              Old 2 Days Ago (2:12 PM).
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              I really think the 20th anniversary wasn't handled right, yes the references and teases were alright but I feel like they had an opportunity to go the distance and give us a proper revisit of Kanto. Yes I don't like Generation One getting loads of special treatment, but I feel like for the 20th anniversary it was justified. Also, the movie is just a downright awful idea imo, why the focus on Ho-Oh? I was so hoping for Ash's full adventure through Hoenn with Brock and Misty but instead we get some random characters and Marshadow, it just wasn't handled right imo.
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              Old 2 Days Ago (5:01 PM).
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                i dont understand why you're (apparently?) so dissatisfied with RBY/GSC VC releases. Do you really want to see a Kanto/Johto re-remake that badly? If the VC releases are of any indication, it seems rather apparent to me that Game Freak does not have any intention on doing that. What would even be the point, though? What would change in a suppose Kanto/Johto sequel? All the characters that we know are older? Again, I'm asking for specifics (and I've asked for specifics in your last post in a different thread as well) and you've either refused to provide them or just flat out don't have any answer for that, which seems to me that you're complaining for the sake of complaining and not having any solid foundation for your reasoning.

                And as someone who's first games were Hoenn games, with all the love that I have for Hoenn, I personally really don't want to seem them after ORAS. I don't want to see Sinnoh after it gets its remake. The same applies to Unova. These games would have already had their time in the spotlight, so why re-revisit them? That doesn't make any sense to me. Again, specifics. What do you have in mind? Do you really think that visiting old regions again would be paying those regions proper homage?
                Because, people like those regions and it would be neat to revisit them in a new way? I know in the case of Kanto and Johto, sequels would also be a great opportunity to fix those regions' outdated design qualities by adding new areas, expanding old ones, and expanding the Regional Pokédex.

                I'd like to know why you dislike the idea of sequels so much. Did you dislike GSC and B2W2?

                Quote:
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                Pokemon tries to reinvent itself while making nods to the past because their core idea is that they get a new fanbase every 3-8 years. That's why the anime doesn't revisit older characters. That's why the regions in the games don't get much more after their remake. On the topic of the remakes, it's revisiting an old region, providing a twist, and helping new players fall in love with an older game while veteran players get to see the region/game in a new light.

                Would I love to see another Gen II remake? Sure! Do I actually want it? Not really. I'll just play GSC or HGSS.
                Would I love to see Brock or Iris in the anime again? That would be super cool! But if they actually (re)introduced an older character, many new fans would be confused because they didn't see all 300 episodes Brock was in.
                This is what I feel is at the core of a lot of the franchise's problems. TPTB are still stuck in the mentality that Pokémon is solely for little kids, with older fans either sidelined or ignored. That's why there's so many reboots and such a focus on promoting brand new things. They don't expect anyone past the age of 12 to still be into this series.

                Unfortunately, the little kid demo is fleeting and increasingly flocking to newer franchises like Yokai Watch. Meanwhile, Pokémon's fanbase continues to age every year, especially with the influx of older fans who recently came back through Pokémon Go.
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                  #14    
                Old 2 Days Ago (5:33 PM).
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                Quote:
                Originally Posted by BettyNewbie View Post
                Because, people like those regions and it would be neat to revisit them in a new way? I know in the case of Kanto and Johto, sequels would also be a great opportunity to fix those regions' outdated design qualities by adding new areas, expanding old ones, and expanding the Regional Pokédex.
                That's called a remake, which RBY and GSC already have.

                The entire point of a sequel is to continue an ongoing story or plot element that was left behind in an original game. RBY and GSC barely had any plot or story to begin with; your argument would be more sound if you argued more for a re-remake than a sequel to RBY and GSC. What loose ends are there to tie up in RBY and GSC? If it's a graphical and mechanical issue, then RBY and GSC deserve remakes, not sequels, and they already have remakes. Because they already have remakes, and because these games don't have any story elements to really continue from (like, at all), the next logical course of action would be to just release RBY and GSC on VC so people who've missed out on the originals and people who have a fondness for the originals can experience them again on an updated console.

                Not only that, if you really wanted to experience your favourite Kanto and Johto Pokemon in full SM graphics, you can transfer them over to SM (and likely USUM). The ability to do this pretty much renders any kind of sequel or any revisit of Kanto/Johto pretty moot except for the story, which again, they don't have.

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                I'd like to know why you dislike the idea of sequels so much. Did you dislike GSC and B2W2?
                I'd like to know where you got this impression from considering B2W2 is one of my favourite Pokemon games. No opinion on GSC because I didn't delve into those games too significantly back then. Just because I don't see a sequel as necessary for Kanto/Johto doesn't mean I've disliked past sequels.
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                Old 2 Days Ago (6:01 PM).
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                  Quote:
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                  The entire point of a sequel is to continue an ongoing story or plot element that was left behind in an original game. RBY and GSC barely had any plot or story to begin with; your argument would be more sound if you argued more for a re-remake than a sequel to RBY and GSC. What loose ends are there to tie up in RBY and GSC? If it's a graphical and mechanical issue, then RBY and GSC deserve remakes, not sequels, and they already have remakes. Because they already have remakes, and because these games don't have any story elements to really continue from (like, at all), the next logical course of action would be to just release RBY and GSC on VC so people who've missed out on the originals and people who have a fondness for the originals can experience them again on an updated console.
                  Problem is, those remakes are 8+ years old now and are getting harder to find. They also barely fixed the games' regional design and Pokédex issues, especially FRLG. You couldn't even get Crobat in those games.

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                  I'd like to know where you got this impression from considering B2W2 is one of my favourite Pokemon games. No opinion on GSC because I didn't delve into those games too significantly back then. Just because I don't see a sequel as necessary for Kanto/Johto doesn't mean I've disliked past sequels.
                  Your very defensive, argumentative tone says a lot. Very close to putting you on Ignore.
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                    #16    
                  Old 2 Days Ago (6:30 PM).
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                  Originally Posted by BettyNewbie View Post
                  Problem is, those remakes are 8+ years old now and are getting harder to find. They also barely fixed the games' regional design and Pokédex issues, especially FRLG. You couldn't even get Crobat in those games.
                  So are you arguing for a re-remake or a sequel? I'm confused, now. I mean, my argument still holds either way--both are rendered redundant by the existence of their respective VCs--the only point for visiting Kanto/Johto would just be for prettier graphics and that's literally it; which only seems like a reason to shoehorn Kanto and Johto to an existing game and not have their own separate ones.

                  Expanded regional Pokedex is an issue that I can see going both ways. There's an argument for an expanded regional Pokedex in cases like Alola in which the Pokedex was rather small, and in fact the game would've probably benefitted from the inclusion of a National Pokedex, instead. A larger regional Pokedex would've also meant a larger variety of Pokemon that are able to be caught without the need to transfer from previous versions.

                  On the other hand, there's also an argument that Nintendo is making it ridiculously easy to transfer Pokemon between games with Pokebank. Gen I VC Pokemon (and likely Gen II VC Pokemon, as well) being able to be transferred to Gen VII means the inclusion of a larger regional Pokedex is mostly moot beyond that generation's specific Pokemon.

                  Feel free to pick your preference.

                  In regards to regional design, I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here. FRLG's arguably most exciting area wasn't even the Kanto mainland itself, it was the Sevii Islands! The chance to explore islands that we didn't realize existed before breathed a fresh life in our adventure. I'd argue this was a rather significant change in regional design in regards to Kanto.

                  And in regards to HGSS, the exploration of Kanto/Johto combined is quite massive enough as it is, in my honest opinion. What sort of regional design changes would you have liked to see?

                  Quote:
                  Your very defensive, argumentative tone says a lot. Very close to putting you on Ignore. >_>
                  I fail to see how that sentence was defensive or argumentative in any way whatsoever. The claim you made was quite frankly asinine and I corrected you. You might want to rethink getting into discussions and debates if you can't handle either opposing opinions or people correcting your misstatements.
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