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  #1    
Old June 19th, 2017 (9:18 AM).
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    Maybe my expectations were too high, but everything about this anniversary celebration has been a letdown to me.

    SM went out of its way to tease and reference Kanto. The protagonist moves to Alola from Kanto, Lillie travels to Kanto at the end, and an adult Red/Blue even appear in the Battle Tree. Yet, we're getting SM rehashes instead of a return to Kanto, rendering all of these teases and references meaningless and worthless.

    The anime pulled a similar trick with Movie 20. They called it "I Choose You," and teased itself as a revisioning of Ash's early travels and his connection to Ho-Oh. Yet again, it turned out to be nothing but a cheap marketing gimmick, and it's yet another generic movie designed to market the latest Event Pokémon (Marshadow) while also replacing the iconic original cast with random nobodies.

    Why is this franchise so reluctant to revisit its past in a meaningful way? Sure, it loves to tease and reference Gen 1/Kanto, and it certainly loves to market and give new gimmicks to Gen 1 Pokémon. But, when was the last time we actually revisited Kanto as region? Or, revisited any of its characters in a meaningful way?

    It's becoming increasingly evident that past regions will never be revisited outside of a single remake. The anime also seems to have a similar philosophy in regards to past companions. They get their one cameo (Misty in AG, May in DP, Dawn in BW) and then are never seen or heard from again. Although, if Iris' lack of appearances in XY is any indication, they don't even get that much anymore.

    As I said, maybe my expectations were just too high. (The 10th anniversary was even more of a non-event.) But, I can't be the only one who feels this way.
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    Old June 19th, 2017 (9:51 AM).
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    I definitely agree with your theory in that Kanto is getting way too much special treatment when it comes to celebrating an anniversary milestone in Pokemon. Kanto references were everywhere in Sun & Moon, on top of Alola Forms being distributed only to 1st Gen Pokemon.

    It's even become evident in the anime that we're barely getting any mention of Ash's previous companions once their generation ends. It's so sad because they are characters we love (well, most of them) but the anime staff seems to want us to forget them which is such an insult to those who have grown up watching the anime.

    Basically, I don't like the whole marketing based on nostalgia thing. It did get some people back into playing when both GO and Sun & Moon came out, but I'm one who didn't like the approach at all because it felt like a middle finger to any fans of a region that wasn't Kanto.

    I also hate the 20th movie for literally attempting to be a reboot by replacing Brock and Misty with two new scrappy characters and has now also turned into an advertisement for Marshadow. I really hated how the 20th anniversary was handled, now that I look at it, because Game Freak and Nintendo only cared about nostalgia and I feel saddened by that.
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    Old June 19th, 2017 (10:26 AM).
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    Well, the Legendary Wi-Fi events were nice, if nothing else. But honestly, I had zero expectations for the 20th Anniversary, so I can't say I'm particularly disappointed. Another instalment in the 3DS titles I don't care for, more anime I'm not interested in. I was quite surprised that Gen I finally got a Virtual Console release - and on the 3DS no less! - but let's face it, they should have been amongst the first titles Nintendo released on the 3DS VC. Too little, too late.

    Pokemon cannot possibly disappoint me any further, because I've stopped having expectations for the kind of quality I used to be able to take for granted from the series. It's hit rock bottom and it can't go any lower. Nowhere left to go but up...or flailing on the ground, I suppose.
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    Old June 19th, 2017 (10:28 AM).
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    I only cared about it for the monthly distributions of mythical Pokémon which finally allowed me to complete my Pokédex.

    Other than that, I agree that it was kind of dull. I never hopped on the bandwagon for Pokémon GO, and in retrospect Sun and Moon weren't as great as I'd hoped they'd be. The anime looked promising for awhile, but it eventually devolved into the same old thing, and even got worse with the introduction of Alolan Ash. I haven't watched a movie since 4th Gen though, so I can't comment on that-though from what I've heard, even from this thread alone, I'm not missing much. xD
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    Old June 19th, 2017 (1:37 PM).
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      Quote:
      Originally Posted by Hikamaru View Post
      I definitely agree with your theory in that Kanto is getting way too much special treatment when it comes to celebrating an anniversary milestone in Pokemon. Kanto references were everywhere in Sun & Moon, on top of Alola Forms being distributed only to 1st Gen Pokemon.

      It's even become evident in the anime that we're barely getting any mention of Ash's previous companions once their generation ends. It's so sad because they are characters we love (well, most of them) but the anime staff seems to want us to forget them which is such an insult to those who have grown up watching the anime.

      Basically, I don't like the whole marketing based on nostalgia thing. It did get some people back into playing when both GO and Sun & Moon came out, but I'm one who didn't like the approach at all because it felt like a middle finger to any fans of a region that wasn't Kanto.

      I also hate the 20th movie for literally attempting to be a reboot by replacing Brock and Misty with two new scrappy characters and has now also turned into an advertisement for Marshadow. I really hated how the 20th anniversary was handled, now that I look at it, because Game Freak and Nintendo only cared about nostalgia and I feel saddened by that.
      To be fair, Kanto fans aren't really getting it great, either. You see shallow references here and there, and Gen 1 Pokémon get loads of marketing and gimmicks, but the region itself and its characters are largely ignored. Kanto hasn't been in any game since HGSS (2009), and it hasn't been the focus of a game since FRLG (2004). And, you have to go all the way back to Crystal (2000) for the last time it was in a game that wasn't a remake.

      Of course, other regions don't have it any better. I doubt we'll ever see either Johto or Hoenn again, and Sinnoh and Unova will similarly vanish once they get their token remakes.

      It's become increasingly evident that TPTB don't see any value in past Gens beyond their most marketable Pokémon. Regions and characters are considered disposable and replaceable, while certain old Pokémon continue to get new gimmicks and get forced into new games for the sake of selling toys and other junk.

      The anime clearly operates under the same philosophy. Characters are seen as disposable and infinitely replaceable, and shallow monster marketing takes precedence over everything else. That is why Misty, Brock, and Gary were dumped for random nobodies in Movie 20. Honoring them and their role in Ash's early years was considered less important than marketing new toys for Lucario and Piplup.

      I don't have a problem with nostalgia itself, but I do have a problem with exploiting it for shallow marketing purposes while refusing to revisit the past in more meaningful ways.
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      Old June 19th, 2017 (3:11 PM). Edited 3 Weeks Ago by Otter Mii-kun.
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        Like Alakazam17, I think Sun and Moon were nowhere near as good as I hoped they would be. Most of the time playing the game is wasted on completely unnecessary cutscenes every few minutes (which, as I've said elsewhere, aren't needed "to help young players" since most of us who played Generations I and II were between 7-12 years old when those games first came out and we managed to get by playing those just fine), plus many other changes were made just for the sake of change rather than being done out of actual necessity.

        More than the other events planned for the 20th Anniversary year, I was very happy to see the Generation I Game Boy games finally re-released to the 3DS Virtual Console, as well as being able to get the digitally remastered first three movies on DVD/Blu-ray - the first time these classic Pokémon movies were made available in widescreen to American consumers since their theatrical releases as Warner Bros. refused to release them on DVD in widescreen (only allowing us to get pan-and-scan versions) when they held the rights to said movies (prior to late 2009, when we had the last release in a three-movie set using the same pan-and-scan only transfers from the early 2000s, which was particularly insulting as more and more households were getting widescreen HDTVs as a result of the transition to all-digital broadcasts that was completed for full-power over-the-air television stations on June 12 of that year.).
        To be honest, I had been anticipating that the first three movies would be seeing home media releases once again since they were made available for streaming on Pokémon TV for a couple of weeks per film in the summer of 2015.
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        Old June 20th, 2017 (4:33 AM).
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        so if i understand correctly, your concern is more that you're frustrated/annoyed because we haven't visited Kanto for the 100th time (even though we technically have in the form of VC releases)?

        what would count as "visiting Kanto in a meaningful way"? you haven't really elaborated on this. one of the biggest reasons i don't see a point in revisiting kanto again is that, in my eyes, it's nearly impossible to significantly revamp kanto in a way that would be "meaningful", because then it would barely count as the kanto that we know and people would then complain about kanto being changed too much etc because you can never make the fanbase happy.

        the kanto pandering is really a marketing tactic to get people who were playing Pokemon GO who haven't played pokemon in years a chance to play sun/moon and largely, it actually worked! that was the entire point of it. i will say, for TPCi's part, that was rather impressive marketing to get people who were once disinterested in the games back on the hype train again.

        "other regions aren't getting it better" - uh, what? Gen II is getting a VC release (which is a Pretty Big Deal because a LOT of people have wanted that), we literally JUST visited Hoenn again in Gen VI so there's no reason to visit it again at any point in the future, which really leaves Sinnoh as the next oldest games to probably (most likely, imo) be remade. don't have any sort of expectations for unova because Gen V are still way too comparatively new to be remade, but we'll see.

        i dont have any comment in regards to the anime because i don't particularly pay attention to nor care for the anime as much as i used to, but in regards to the gaming, those are my thoughts.

        also fwiw grimsley out of every character you can think of in unova made a cameo in sun/moon. colress made a cameo, cynthia (to no one's surprise) made a cameo, red/blue (obviously) made cameos, this time as adults! i must say, in regards to the games, i cant see how there's supporting evidence for your claim that past characters are forgotten about. you can battle wally (remember back when wally was a forgettable character in the original Gen III?) . dexio and sina, probably characters that no one really bats an eye to, made cameos. sure, they might not be super important characters (really though do you expect game freak to bring back lysandre in alola?), but that's even more supporting evidence that Game Freak doesn't necessary forget about past characters, even moreso the niche characters which is a nice surprise.

        at the end of the day, have whatever opinions you want about sm. i dont really care about that. but this all really feels like a thinly veiled (not even that veiled really) attempt to trash newer pokemon games because "where is muh kanto".
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        Old June 20th, 2017 (8:05 AM).
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          at the end of the day, have whatever opinions you want about sm. i dont really care about that. but this all really feels like a thinly veiled (not even that veiled really) attempt to trash newer pokemon games because "where is muh kanto".
          Where in the world did I "trash" newer Pokémon games? Talk about an overreaction.

          Yes, I am an older fan, and my main focus is Kanto/Johto, but that's not the point. I dislike the idea that *any* past region must be permanently left behind and never return outside of a single remake. (I hardly count re-releases of ancient games as being "revisits" of past regions.) It feels more glaring with Kanto/Johto since their last remake appearance is now 8 years old (HGSS), but the same thing will happen with other regions. I don't expect to see Hoenn ever again after ORAS, and Sinnoh/Unova/etc. similarly won't get anything else besides solitary remakes years down the road.

          And, I hate to bring up this bag of worms again, but also think of the people who got invested in Kalos and the Team Flare storyline, only for the games to end up moving on to Gen 7 without giving Kalos any kind of followup. Personally, I could care less about Kalos and whether or not XY sequels exist, but I can still recognize that fans who did got ripped off.

          I hate this idea that the past must always be left behind and that it can never be honored or recognized except in the most superficial ways possible. All it does is teach you to never get too attached to a region or character and never care about any particular storyline, because they'll inevitably be disposed of and replaced.
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            #9    
          Old June 20th, 2017 (8:08 AM).
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            So did you guys want more Kanto or no Kanto? I’m not following anymore…

            I, for one, was not disappointed by the 20th Anniversary. I was not expecting a full Kanto reboot and honestly that would’ve been a waste of time; there are better ways to pay homage to the older regions than revisiting them. I think SM did that in a unique way.

            I think we can say now that the general goal of the 20th Anniversary was to not just celebrate the franchise but to also bring it back under the attention of the general, uninterested or uninformed audience, and I think they did that marvelously. Pokémon GO was the best thing they could’ve released in the past year as it made the Pokémon mania from the beginning days resurface. Not only did older fans come back to the franchise by seeing the creatures they’re more familiar with, it also brought in an entire new generation of young Pokémon fans that will probably stick with the franchise for at least a few years now. Same goes for the release of RBY on Virtual Console and SM featuring a lot of homage to Kanto. Even if you don’t like the choices they made, you have to admit that the Anniversary created a lot of new publicity for the franchise and gave it a massive boost in popularity.

            In my years of being a fan I’ve never seen so many people talking so openly about playing Pokémon, whether it’s GO, SM or even trading card games. And that makes me very happy. Because of this, I see the Anniversary as huge success for the franchise as a whole.

            Having critique on SM doesn’t mean that that the entire 20th Anniversary was a letdown. That is taking it a bit too far. Every game has is positive and negative parts but it should not speak for the whole franchise suddenly.

            Only thing I’m disappointed about is the reboot movie replacing Misty and Brock for... Whatever those weird figures are. Mainly because it is a very weird choice and actually alienates the older audience that would’ve been interested in the reboot. But other than that, I think GameFreak approached things greatly.
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            Old June 20th, 2017 (11:27 AM). Edited June 20th, 2017 by colours.
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            Quote:
            Originally Posted by BettyNewbie View Post
            Where in the world did I "trash" newer Pokémon games? Talk about an overreaction. :rolleyes2:
            yeah, talk about an overreaction, alright. "wow sm third version i am extremely disappointed/does game freak really want gen 7 to go out with a whimper/where is muh kanto". this strikes a very similar tone to the one this thread currently has, but that's just me.

            Quote:
            Yes, I am an older fan, and my main focus is Kanto/Johto, but that's not the point. I dislike the idea that *any* past region must be permanently left behind and never return outside of a single remake. (I hardly count re-releases of ancient games as being "revisits" of past regions.) It feels more glaring with Kanto/Johto since their last remake appearance is now 8 years old (HGSS), but the same thing will happen with other regions. I don't expect to see Hoenn ever again after ORAS, and Sinnoh/Unova/etc. similarly won't get anything else besides solitary remakes years down the road.
            i dont understand why you're (apparently?) so dissatisfied with RBY/GSC VC releases. Do you really want to see a Kanto/Johto re-remake that badly? If the VC releases are of any indication, it seems rather apparent to me that Game Freak does not have any intention on doing that. What would even be the point, though? What would change in a suppose Kanto/Johto sequel? All the characters that we know are older? Again, I'm asking for specifics (and I've asked for specifics in your last post in a different thread as well) and you've either refused to provide them or just flat out don't have any answer for that, which seems to me that you're complaining for the sake of complaining and not having any solid foundation for your reasoning.

            And as someone who's first games were Hoenn games, with all the love that I have for Hoenn, I personally really don't want to seem them after ORAS. I don't want to see Sinnoh after it gets its remake. The same applies to Unova. These games would have already had their time in the spotlight, so why re-revisit them? That doesn't make any sense to me. Again, specifics. What do you have in mind? Do you really think that visiting old regions again would be paying those regions proper homage?

            Quote:
            And, I hate to bring up this bag of worms again, but also think of the people who got invested in Kalos and the Team Flare storyline, only for the games to end up moving on to Gen 7 without giving Kalos any kind of followup. Personally, I could care less about Kalos and whether or not XY sequels exist, but I can still recognize that fans who did got ripped off.
            This is probably the only point I agree with you on. As much as I personally wasn't a fan of Kalos, it should've gotten a third game. I can only speculate that Game Freak were rushing on finishing up SM to celebrate the 20th anniversary and an XY third game or sequel would've conflicted with that. Make of that speculation what you will.

            Not responding to that last point because it's just nothing but cynicism and I don't think your mind would be changed regardless of what anyone says on that.
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              #11    
            Old June 20th, 2017 (1:45 PM).
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              I thought the 20th Anniversary was good in terms of Pokemon Events (even if I already had all of the legendaries) and merchandise. They did some interesting marketing things for Go and other stuff, which was entertaining. I felt like it was more expansive rather than catering to its core fanbase.

              Also, we have to consider that we're not going to get a Pokemon Greatest Hits where multiple regions are either referenced or available in a single game. It kind of defeats the purpose and lessens the value of any one region.

              Pokemon tries to reinvent itself while making nods to the past because their core idea is that they get a new fanbase every 3-8 years. That's why the anime doesn't revisit older characters. That's why the regions in the games don't get much more after their remake. On the topic of the remakes, it's revisiting an old region, providing a twist, and helping new players fall in love with an older game while veteran players get to see the region/game in a new light.

              Would I love to see another Gen II remake? Sure! Do I actually want it? Not really. I'll just play GSC or HGSS.
              Would I love to see Brock or Iris in the anime again? That would be super cool! But if they actually (re)introduced an older character, many new fans would be confused because they didn't see all 300 episodes Brock was in.
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              Old June 20th, 2017 (2:12 PM).
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              I really think the 20th anniversary wasn't handled right, yes the references and teases were alright but I feel like they had an opportunity to go the distance and give us a proper revisit of Kanto. Yes I don't like Generation One getting loads of special treatment, but I feel like for the 20th anniversary it was justified. Also, the movie is just a downright awful idea imo, why the focus on Ho-Oh? I was so hoping for Ash's full adventure through Hoenn with Brock and Misty but instead we get some random characters and Marshadow, it just wasn't handled right imo.
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              Old June 20th, 2017 (5:01 PM).
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                i dont understand why you're (apparently?) so dissatisfied with RBY/GSC VC releases. Do you really want to see a Kanto/Johto re-remake that badly? If the VC releases are of any indication, it seems rather apparent to me that Game Freak does not have any intention on doing that. What would even be the point, though? What would change in a suppose Kanto/Johto sequel? All the characters that we know are older? Again, I'm asking for specifics (and I've asked for specifics in your last post in a different thread as well) and you've either refused to provide them or just flat out don't have any answer for that, which seems to me that you're complaining for the sake of complaining and not having any solid foundation for your reasoning.

                And as someone who's first games were Hoenn games, with all the love that I have for Hoenn, I personally really don't want to seem them after ORAS. I don't want to see Sinnoh after it gets its remake. The same applies to Unova. These games would have already had their time in the spotlight, so why re-revisit them? That doesn't make any sense to me. Again, specifics. What do you have in mind? Do you really think that visiting old regions again would be paying those regions proper homage?
                Because, people like those regions and it would be neat to revisit them in a new way? I know in the case of Kanto and Johto, sequels would also be a great opportunity to fix those regions' outdated design qualities by adding new areas, expanding old ones, and expanding the Regional Pokédex.

                I'd like to know why you dislike the idea of sequels so much. Did you dislike GSC and B2W2?

                Quote:
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                Pokemon tries to reinvent itself while making nods to the past because their core idea is that they get a new fanbase every 3-8 years. That's why the anime doesn't revisit older characters. That's why the regions in the games don't get much more after their remake. On the topic of the remakes, it's revisiting an old region, providing a twist, and helping new players fall in love with an older game while veteran players get to see the region/game in a new light.

                Would I love to see another Gen II remake? Sure! Do I actually want it? Not really. I'll just play GSC or HGSS.
                Would I love to see Brock or Iris in the anime again? That would be super cool! But if they actually (re)introduced an older character, many new fans would be confused because they didn't see all 300 episodes Brock was in.
                This is what I feel is at the core of a lot of the franchise's problems. TPTB are still stuck in the mentality that Pokémon is solely for little kids, with older fans either sidelined or ignored. That's why there's so many reboots and such a focus on promoting brand new things. They don't expect anyone past the age of 12 to still be into this series.

                Unfortunately, the little kid demo is fleeting and increasingly flocking to newer franchises like Yokai Watch. Meanwhile, Pokémon's fanbase continues to age every year, especially with the influx of older fans who recently came back through Pokémon Go.
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                Old June 20th, 2017 (5:33 PM).
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                Quote:
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                Because, people like those regions and it would be neat to revisit them in a new way? I know in the case of Kanto and Johto, sequels would also be a great opportunity to fix those regions' outdated design qualities by adding new areas, expanding old ones, and expanding the Regional Pokédex.
                That's called a remake, which RBY and GSC already have.

                The entire point of a sequel is to continue an ongoing story or plot element that was left behind in an original game. RBY and GSC barely had any plot or story to begin with; your argument would be more sound if you argued more for a re-remake than a sequel to RBY and GSC. What loose ends are there to tie up in RBY and GSC? If it's a graphical and mechanical issue, then RBY and GSC deserve remakes, not sequels, and they already have remakes. Because they already have remakes, and because these games don't have any story elements to really continue from (like, at all), the next logical course of action would be to just release RBY and GSC on VC so people who've missed out on the originals and people who have a fondness for the originals can experience them again on an updated console.

                Not only that, if you really wanted to experience your favourite Kanto and Johto Pokemon in full SM graphics, you can transfer them over to SM (and likely USUM). The ability to do this pretty much renders any kind of sequel or any revisit of Kanto/Johto pretty moot except for the story, which again, they don't have.

                Quote:
                I'd like to know why you dislike the idea of sequels so much. Did you dislike GSC and B2W2?
                I'd like to know where you got this impression from considering B2W2 is one of my favourite Pokemon games. No opinion on GSC because I didn't delve into those games too significantly back then. Just because I don't see a sequel as necessary for Kanto/Johto doesn't mean I've disliked past sequels.
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                  #15    
                Old June 20th, 2017 (6:01 PM).
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                  The entire point of a sequel is to continue an ongoing story or plot element that was left behind in an original game. RBY and GSC barely had any plot or story to begin with; your argument would be more sound if you argued more for a re-remake than a sequel to RBY and GSC. What loose ends are there to tie up in RBY and GSC? If it's a graphical and mechanical issue, then RBY and GSC deserve remakes, not sequels, and they already have remakes. Because they already have remakes, and because these games don't have any story elements to really continue from (like, at all), the next logical course of action would be to just release RBY and GSC on VC so people who've missed out on the originals and people who have a fondness for the originals can experience them again on an updated console.
                  Problem is, those remakes are 8+ years old now and are getting harder to find. They also barely fixed the games' regional design and Pokédex issues, especially FRLG. You couldn't even get Crobat in those games.

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                  I'd like to know where you got this impression from considering B2W2 is one of my favourite Pokemon games. No opinion on GSC because I didn't delve into those games too significantly back then. Just because I don't see a sequel as necessary for Kanto/Johto doesn't mean I've disliked past sequels.
                  Your very defensive, argumentative tone says a lot. Very close to putting you on Ignore.
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                    #16    
                  Old June 20th, 2017 (6:30 PM).
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                  Originally Posted by BettyNewbie View Post
                  Problem is, those remakes are 8+ years old now and are getting harder to find. They also barely fixed the games' regional design and Pokédex issues, especially FRLG. You couldn't even get Crobat in those games.
                  So are you arguing for a re-remake or a sequel? I'm confused, now. I mean, my argument still holds either way--both are rendered redundant by the existence of their respective VCs--the only point for visiting Kanto/Johto would just be for prettier graphics and that's literally it; which only seems like a reason to shoehorn Kanto and Johto to an existing game and not have their own separate ones.

                  Expanded regional Pokedex is an issue that I can see going both ways. There's an argument for an expanded regional Pokedex in cases like Alola in which the Pokedex was rather small, and in fact the game would've probably benefitted from the inclusion of a National Pokedex, instead. A larger regional Pokedex would've also meant a larger variety of Pokemon that are able to be caught without the need to transfer from previous versions.

                  On the other hand, there's also an argument that Nintendo is making it ridiculously easy to transfer Pokemon between games with Pokebank. Gen I VC Pokemon (and likely Gen II VC Pokemon, as well) being able to be transferred to Gen VII means the inclusion of a larger regional Pokedex is mostly moot beyond that generation's specific Pokemon.

                  Feel free to pick your preference.

                  In regards to regional design, I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here. FRLG's arguably most exciting area wasn't even the Kanto mainland itself, it was the Sevii Islands! The chance to explore islands that we didn't realize existed before breathed a fresh life in our adventure. I'd argue this was a rather significant change in regional design in regards to Kanto.

                  And in regards to HGSS, the exploration of Kanto/Johto combined is quite massive enough as it is, in my honest opinion. What sort of regional design changes would you have liked to see?

                  Quote:
                  Your very defensive, argumentative tone says a lot. Very close to putting you on Ignore. >_>
                  I fail to see how that sentence was defensive or argumentative in any way whatsoever. The claim you made was quite frankly asinine and I corrected you. You might want to rethink getting into discussions and debates if you can't handle either opposing opinions or people correcting your misstatements.
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                    #17    
                  Old July 11th, 2017 (10:06 AM).
                  Feroniamon Feroniamon is offline
                     
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                    Somehow... I agree the 20th anniversary wasn't great. It was too specific towards catering Kanto, but throwing with Gen 1 Pokémon and teasing around mercilessly and that's... one of some points which ticked me out of Sun & Moon. I may be one fan since Gen 1, but my favorite generation was Gen 3 and my Hoenn craze was satisfied with ORAS. This specific point of Nostalgia Pandering may work for some, but can't work for some - so it's a two-edged sword which hits hard.

                    However... With USUM I think SM is somewhat a "second" BW - strong maingame, but weak postgame. I may have some hope for USUM, but momentary my expections are low because lately in newer Pokémon games (XY and SM) I tend to be dissapointed. They have great ideas which can make good stories, but I notice a certain problem: They tried too hard with it, also with holding mysteries (which turned to be not mysteries because being poorly hidden) and it tends to backfire (really, I hate the Mega Evolution subplot because it killed XY for me, because... poor Calem/Serena). Also Pokémon tends to look one-way - maybe having problems to recognize what made it good back then. Pokémon today isn't the Pokémon we know of the past. It's... different and tries too hard to be like Pokémon in the past, but it jumps without finishing the chapter into the next generation. I would have Kalos fixed because it felt too rushed.

                    But with the anime's 20th anniversary... I believe the Kanto craze slowly cools down a bit and the 20th movie is the last point - if USUM shifts the pandering point from Kanto to Johto. But I would wish the teasing wouldn't be that aggressive like SM (the Nugget Bridge was unneccesary to my eyes). And more important for USUM: Make Lillie a Pokémon Trainer already around the time in Akala so she can defend herself!

                    Quote:
                    Originally Posted by colours
                    In regards to regional design, I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here. FRLG's arguably most exciting area wasn't even the Kanto mainland itself, it was the Sevii Islands! The chance to explore islands that we didn't realize existed before breathed a fresh life in our adventure. I'd argue this was a rather significant change in regional design in regards to Kanto.
                    I think BettyNewbie means FRLG!Kanto is essentially the same like RBY!Kanto and wants Kanto as a region fleshed out so it can be appealed for today's time. Here's what I'm saying myself lately: Today's time has a different approch as in the 90s and 2000s and that's the problem: Kanto as a region is still in the past and as "barebones" it isn't as appealing for today as it was on it's prime.

                    But having a remake of an remake with fixing Kanto's regional design? I'm doubting it if I would count GameFreak (they would think it's good enough, but it's just my thought). The same goes for Johto as much I wanna wish "fleshing" Kanto and Johto out. I would rather count my luck of an hack or a fangame or just... mapping and giving Kanto a new face. But everyone has a personal vision and that's... difficult, even almost impossible to please everyone.

                    And for getting an Kanto game, there's the VC releases and this year Johto finally joins in.
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                      #18    
                    Old July 13th, 2017 (1:50 AM).
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                    Alexander18 Alexander18 is offline
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                      Not a fan of the anniversary. It was kanto this and kanto that. Like i want kanto being thrown in my face all the time. There were other generations. The anniversary was for all games. Not just kanto.
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                        #19    
                      Old 4 Weeks Ago (4:17 AM).
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                      Quote:
                      Originally Posted by Feroniamon View Post
                      I think BettyNewbie means FRLG!Kanto is essentially the same like RBY!Kanto and wants Kanto as a region fleshed out so it can be appealed for today's time. Here's what I'm saying myself lately: Today's time has a different approch as in the 90s and 2000s and that's the problem: Kanto as a region is still in the past and as "barebones" it isn't as appealing for today as it was on it's prime.

                      But having a remake of an remake with fixing Kanto's regional design? I'm doubting it if I would count GameFreak (they would think it's good enough, but it's just my thought). The same goes for Johto as much I wanna wish "fleshing" Kanto and Johto out. I would rather count my luck of an hack or a fangame or just... mapping and giving Kanto a new face. But everyone has a personal vision and that's... difficult, even almost impossible to please everyone.

                      And for getting an Kanto game, there's the VC releases and this year Johto finally joins in.
                      And here's what I'm saying: what does fleshing out even mean?

                      Better graphics?
                      Better mechanics?
                      A story?
                      Memorable characters?
                      Incorporated features from recent generations?
                      A combination of all of the above?

                      If it's any combination of the above, then it isn't vanilla Kanto as most of us would remember it as and instead it would be a sequel with Kanto re-built from the ground up. While this sounds ideal in theory, this has its own issues in practice because the entire point of a remake is to pay as much homage to the originals as possible. If you're going to deviate from the originals while still including it in a main series game, then you might as well make a Kanto sequel altogether with an actual plot and everything else stated above.

                      ... The problem with that though, is that GSC is that sequel, and it already has its own remake. So the only option left is a re-remake of HGSS and... going by the announcement of a Gen II VC, that doesn't seem to be in the cards for Game Freak at the moment, and that is the absolute closest you're going to get for a fresh, fleshed out modern Kanto.
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                        #20    
                      Old 4 Weeks Ago (10:52 AM).
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                        It was a wild ride that I have both pros and cons with.

                        Pros:
                        +The free online distributions of Mythical Pokémon from Mew to Hoopa, making it much easier for players like me to truly complete the PokéDex in X/Y and ORAS.
                        +Sun and Moon had some endearing characters and awesome new Pokémon worth remembering.
                        +The whole community of this franchise was certainly active and booming as a result of both Pokémon Go and Sun/Moon.
                        +Pokémon finally managed to become just as relevant as it once had during the late 1990's.

                        Cons:
                        -Sun/Moon's postgame leaves a lot to be desired.
                        -It would have been nice to get Volcanion in Generation 6 the exact same way we got Diancie and Hoopa through online distribution.
                        -Ash losing the Kalos League was a total copout that completely soured the entire experience.
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                          #21    
                        Old 4 Weeks Ago (2:23 PM).
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                        BettyNewbie BettyNewbie is offline
                           
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                          Learning more about M20 has made me realize my biggest problem with the 20th Anniversary celebration -- While the older gen Pokémon have been getting plenty of attention, the older gen characters are not only being ignored, but are actively being sidelined in favor of later gen characters.

                          M20 is a movie that's inspired by Kanto/Johto and the OS era, yet goes out of its way to exclude OS era characters and instead give us new ones that promote later gens (including one who's entire story revolves around their mother being a certain blonde Champion).

                          Then, there's SM, the "20th Anniversary" games that are supposedly full of "Kanto pandering," yet only two characters from the first two gens combined actually return (Red, Blue) and far more prominence is given to returning characters from later gens (like Looker, Anabel, Colress, and Burnet).

                          The majority of the Kanto/Johto characters have not been seen since B2W2 (5 years ago) and haven't had an appearance bigger than a minor postgame battle facility cameo since HGSS (8 years ago). In terms of relevance to the anime and franchise as a whole, many of them have not had that since Gen 3 or earlier. Just look at Misty, one of the original Gym Leaders and costars of the anime. One of the most important and iconic characters of the Pokémania Era, and yet, she hasn't been seen or heard from on the show since 2005 and has had practically no presence in the franchise as a whole since then, either.

                          Outside of Red and Blue, none of the characters who have actually been a part of the franchise for 20 years have had any actual presence in this 20th Anniversary, and this is after most of them have had little presence in the franchise as a whole for the last 10 years. Why are the games and anime so willing to promote older Pokémon, yet seem to go out of their way to ignore older characters?

                          It's possible that TPTB are thinking primarily of younger audiences and feel that while they'll be able to recognize Pokémon from any gen, they'll only be able to recognize characters from later gens. I'm not sure if this is even true in an age of VC re-releases and OS episodes on Netflix, and even if it was the case, the games and anime only dug themselves into this trap by spending the last 10 years consistently sidelining Kanto/Johto (and Hoenn, to a lesser extent) characters in favor of promoting the likes of Cynthia and Looker. And, what about the not-so-insignificant number of older fans in their 20s and early 30s who have come back into the series in recent years? Don't tell me not a single one of them wouldn't mind seeing iconic classic characters again.

                          In short, what disappoints me most about the 20th Anniversary is how little it actually breaks from what has been the norm for the last 10 years.
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                            #22    
                          Old 4 Weeks Ago (12:12 AM).
                          Feroniamon Feroniamon is offline
                             
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                            Quote:
                            Originally Posted by colours
                            And here's what I'm saying: what does fleshing out even mean?

                            Better graphics?
                            Better mechanics?
                            A story?
                            Memorable characters?
                            Incorporated features from recent generations?
                            A combination of all of the above?

                            If it's any combination of the above, then it isn't vanilla Kanto as most of us would remember it as and instead it would be a sequel with Kanto re-built from the ground up. While this sounds ideal in theory, this has its own issues in practice because the entire point of a remake is to pay as much homage to the originals as possible. If you're going to deviate from the originals while still including it in a main series game, then you might as well make a Kanto sequel altogether with an actual plot and everything else stated above.

                            ... The problem with that though, is that GSC is that sequel, and it already has its own remake. So the only option left is a re-remake of HGSS and... going by the announcement of a Gen II VC, that doesn't seem to be in the cards for Game Freak at the moment, and that is the absolute closest you're going to get for a fresh, fleshed out modern Kanto.
                            With fleshing out I mean modifing the region landscape itself (giving more content and fixing some map problems like in Fuchsia City. HGSS however gave Route 16 - 18 an Cycling Road similar to Sinnoh's Cycling Road and modified some Routes like Route 16 und 22) while still paying homage to the originals, so it can be more appealing for today's standard while still recognizable for older fans who know Kanto since Gen 1. And enabling the Cross-Gen evolutions before getting the National Dex.

                            Otherwise FRLG is alright to me. Due the soundtrack remixes (different tones), fixing many bugs present in RBY, the Sevii Islands and some little modifications like getting a VS. Seeker it feels fresh yet staying true to the original.

                            When I want to further modify Kanto... You're right, the best way could be a sequel of HGSS and I think setting in a similar time place like SM seems good.

                            Quote:
                            Originally Posted by BettyNewbie
                            Outside of Red and Blue, none of the characters who have actually been a part of the franchise for 20 years have had any actual presence in this 20th Anniversary, and this is after most of them have had little presence in the franchise as a whole for the last 10 years. Why are the games and anime so willing to promote older Pokémon, yet seem to go out of their way to ignore older characters?

                            It's possible that TPTB are thinking primarily of younger audiences and feel that while they'll be able to recognize Pokémon from any gen, they'll only be able to recognize characters from later gens. I'm not sure if this is even true in an age of VC re-releases and OS episodes on Netflix, and even if it was the case, the games and anime only dug themselves into this trap by spending the last 10 years consistently sidelining Kanto/Johto (and Hoenn, to a lesser extent) characters in favor of promoting the likes of Cynthia and Looker. And, what about the not-so-insignificant number of older fans in their 20s and early 30s who have come back into the series in recent years? Don't tell me not a single one of them wouldn't mind seeing iconic classic characters again.
                            It's something I'm puzzled and in this way it doesn't feel like a "true" anniversary for everyone. But that's where the problem is and I think it's better to scout newcomers than catering just the older fans: Sooner or later older fans who are "fed up" will quit or just pause (they can't hold on Pokémon forever) and just catering them is not good for the franchise as well as if it would just focus on the newcomers (it's something SM escaleted with the whole hand-holding in the mainstory. I hope it tones down in USUM). It needs new fans and how could they get into Pokémon? The new generation is a different one than the older one who are with Pokémon since Gen 1 and they need something which appeals better for today's standard instead of the things which appealed for the older generation.

                            From my perspective I think the 20th anniversary tried to cater both, but wanted to play safe.

                            Quote:
                            Originally Posted by BerryNewbie
                            M20 is a movie that's inspired by Kanto/Johto and the OS era, yet goes out of its way to exclude OS era characters and instead give us new ones that promote later gens (including one who's entire story revolves around their mother being a certain blonde Champion).
                            The reveal about Makoto's mother is just fan-fictiony for me and doesn't connect well (sometimes I think it felts like a fan's self-insert). I mean, they have different hair color. But maybe Makoto's brown hair comes from her father, if she has one. Her "secret" was actually something I dreaded for this movie, luckily it happens only in the end and was just small - but still bugging.

                            Actually I have no problem M20 being trying to celebrate more than just Kanto. I can see this movie in an alternate universe and also as a interpretation about the friendship between Ash and Pikachu, which was the main point of this movie alongside Ho-Oh.
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                              #23    
                            Old 4 Weeks Ago (8:29 AM).
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                            BettyNewbie BettyNewbie is offline
                               
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                              Quote:
                              Originally Posted by Feroniamon View Post
                              It's something I'm puzzled and in this way it doesn't feel like a "true" anniversary for everyone. But that's where the problem is and I think it's better to scout newcomers than catering just the older fans: Sooner or later older fans who are "fed up" will quit or just pause (they can't hold on Pokémon forever) and just catering them is not good for the franchise as well as if it would just focus on the newcomers (it's something SM escaleted with the whole hand-holding in the mainstory. I hope it tones down in USUM). It needs new fans and how could they get into Pokémon? The new generation is a different one than the older one who are with Pokémon since Gen 1 and they need something which appeals better for today's standard instead of the things which appealed for the older generation.

                              From my perspective I think the 20th anniversary tried to cater both, but wanted to play safe.
                              Then, they should've just done what they did for the 10th anniversary, aka. give us a brand new generation and nothing else. At least that would be honest instead of paying lip service to older fans without ever following through with anything meaningful.

                              I guess the main problem is that both the games and show have gone on for so long that there's too many characters to give equal attention to, and there's too strong of a disconnect between older fans and younger fans. I guess when you consider what games the 3DS itself can play, it makes sense that they would give more attention to characters from the "dual screen" generations (ie. Gens 4 and later) over the earlier ones. People simply have easier access to games that feature Cynthia, Looker, and Colress than ones that feature Brock, Misty, and Lance.

                              (Although, that doesn't explain why SM suddenly decided to bring back Anabel, a very minor Frontier Brain who had only ever been seen in a single game 12 years earlier and didn't even make it into her gen's remakes.)

                              Quote:
                              Originally Posted by Feroniamon View Post
                              The reveal about Makoto's mother is just fan-fictiony for me and doesn't connect well (sometimes I think it felts like a fan's self-insert). I mean, they have different hair color. But maybe Makoto's brown hair comes from her father, if she has one. Her "secret" was actually something I dreaded for this movie, luckily it happens only in the end and was just small - but still bugging.

                              Actually I have no problem M20 being trying to celebrate more than just Kanto. I can see this movie in an alternate universe and also as a interpretation about the friendship between Ash and Pikachu, which was the main point of this movie alongside Ho-Oh.
                              Although I can't prove anything, I have a strong hunch on who Makoto's father is meant to be. Can't deny those thick, dark eyebrows, and I could totally see them wanting her to be the spawn of *both* of Gen 4's most overused characters.

                              There's nothing inherently wrong with M20 celebrating more than just Kanto -- But, why give the movie a setting that's meant to invoke the early anime, then? When you call your movie "I Choose You" and put Ash in clothes reminiscent to his original outfit, people are going to expect something heavily tied to the OS era, not Ash and a couple of randos from Sinnoh in some all-new AU story. That's not paying respect to the anime's roots. That's using nostalgia to pull a bait & switch and hook people into what is otherwise a very routine, business-as-usual Pokémon movie.

                              And, say what you will, but after Misty has been completely MIA for 12 years and counting, and the original trio has not been seen together for a whopping 15 years, a lot of people were really excited at the prospect of seeing Ash/Misty/Brock together again. This isn't to slight on later companions like May and Dawn, but it shouldn't be hard to understand what makes the original trio more important and why a 20th anniversary celebration should give them more focus.

                              If Misty and Brock can't even be in a 20th anniversary movie, then the odds of them ever appearing again are next-to-zero, and that's outright tragic. Two of the most iconic and prominent characters of the Pokémania Era, and they've ultimately become little more than unimportant throwaway footnotes.
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                                #24    
                              Old 4 Weeks Ago (12:48 PM).
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                              The 20th anniversary was disappointing to me because the main part of it for me (or I suppose that it is the main part in general alongside the new movie) was Sun/Moon, and those games....really did not do it for me. I figured that for the 20th anniversary of the series (which iirc they bothered to mention/do something for unlike with other anniversary years) we'd get a pair of truly great Pokemon games, but nope.

                              Quote:
                              Originally Posted by BettyNewbie View Post
                              new ones that promote later gens (including one who's entire story revolves around their mother being a certain blonde Champion).
                              wait wut
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                                #25    
                              Old 4 Weeks Ago (12:59 PM).
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                                I wasn't disappointed, but only because I wasn't expecting anything in the first place. Game anniversaries these days seem to mean a remake/remaster of an old fan favorite, or the first game.

                                The games disappointed me, but I didn't consider them to be part of the 20th anniversary celebration, so I don't factor them in.
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