Competitive Battling Chat

Vrai · Jul 27, 2011

dragonomega said:
I've never actually used Wobbuffet myself. But I have faced them and they're not that hard to get rid of, if you play your cards right. Not being able to switch is pretty annoying but with the team preview I always knows that I have Wobbu to deal with and play cautiously.

I say keep it in OU or UU Idk what it's in atm. I rarely see them, anyway,

Ehhh I had a longer post written but my computer decided to go "LOL U" and deleted it. :(

Anyway, the problem with Wobb is not that it's "not that hard to get rid of if you play your cards right", it's that it is that hard to get rid of if they play their cards right. I've played very poor Wobbuffet users and very, very good ones and honestly if someone plays Wobbuffet effectively it's incredibly hard to beat. Plus it's got massive utility; trapping and killing scarfers, weather inducers... plus you can encore a set-up move and then go kill their set-upper or set up on your own, depending on what you encored. It's an amazing utility if played effectively and while it doesn't have much to say recovery-wise, you always have wishpassing. :(

I'd probably abstain if given a vote, however. I'm pretty sure they're bent on it being broken in UU but I haven't played UU in a while anyway. Wobb + Dugtrio is apparently insanely broken. :<

2Cool4Mewtwo · Jul 27, 2011

Karpman said:
New Topic time~

So, for those of you who have watched and actually paid attention to the most recent Smogcast [I look at you, Vrai], you may have caught the tidbit about Wobbuffet. For those who didn't, the panelists pretty much said it was Antimetagame and is still very threatening even with Encore getting nerfed and should be deserving of a ban mainly because it takes away a player's ability to switch.

So, what are everyone's thoughts on the big, blue punching bag? How threatening do you find it? Is it worthy of a ban?

It's a bit harder for them to predict if you have a strong mixed attacker, though they are quite annoying to deal with if a pokemon lacks taunt.

.Aero · Jul 27, 2011

There are a couple things that have hindered Wobb this generation:

1. Wifi Clause - no more surprise switch-ins from Wobb to take down your pokemon easily. Anyone who sees Wobb on the opponent's team will realize that if you're sending in a potential setup sweeper, it would be best to switch to something that you know can safely OHKO Wobb.

2. Power creep - Pokemon this gen have more potential to OHKO him and not have to worry about being Counter/Magic Coat bait. Keep in mind, I haven't really tested this, it just seems reasonable is all (depending the pokemon). Something like CB Haxorus can probably OHKO with outrage, hell, he could just taunt him on the SD / DD sets. Which reminds me with priority taunters like tornadus and thundurus, taunt is more common than ever (Jellicent too!).

3. Encore is now only 3 turns instead of 4-8 turns. That's a huge shot to Wobb. He used to be able to Encore, and then Tickle / Charm the opponent until the pokemon was forced to use Struggle. This isn't possible anymore because of Encore's 3 turn duration and its already pitiful PP.

That's my opinion on why Wobb shouldn't be banned. I am theorymon'ing yes, I don't play UU, but I feel these are the justifications that Smogon used for taking him down from uber in the first place.

Vrai · Jul 27, 2011

.Aero said:
There are a couple things that have hindered Wobb this generation:

1. Wifi Clause - no more surprise switch-ins from Wobb to take down your pokemon easily. Anyone who sees Wobb on the opponent's team will realize that if you're sending in a potential setup sweeper, it would be best to switch to something that you know can safely OHKO Wobb.

2. Power creep - Pokemon this gen have more potential to OHKO him and not have to worry about being Counter/Magic Coat bait. Keep in mind, I haven't really tested this, it just seems reasonable is all (depending the pokemon). Something like CB Haxorus can probably OHKO with outrage, hell, he could just taunt him on the SD / DD sets. Which reminds me with priority taunters like tornadus and thundurus, taunt is more common than ever (Jellicent too!).

3. Encore is now only 3 turns instead of 4-8 turns. That's a huge shot to Wobb. He used to be able to Encore, and then Tickle / Charm the opponent until the pokemon was forced to use Struggle. This isn't possible anymore because of Encore's 3 turn duration and its already pitiful PP.

That's my opinion on why Wobb shouldn't be banned. I am theorymon'ing yes, I don't play UU, but I feel these are the justifications that Smogon used for taking him down from uber in the first place.

All of those things are definitely very true. Howeverrrr, the biggest thing here is that nearly everything that has had Power Creep is found in OU. What is super-powerful, insanely strong, able to one-shot Wobbuffet in UU? CB U-Turn Scizor, maybe? Specs Yanmega? Point is, power creep is nonexistant in UU; and so is Taunt iirc, for that matter. Taunt Mismagius is probably the only thing that frequently uses it and half the time Sub is used anyway. The Encore nerf is really why they brought him down from Ubers and makes him much much much less godlike but he still has the potential to either set up a gamebreaking sweep or trap and kill basically any Pokemon on the other team. Tickle Wobbuffet + Dugtrio is very popular down in UU to trap and kill off things like Chansey, etc. It's likely to be a suspect if not banned in the UU nominations next round because it really is just much more effective down there where things are just -less strong-.

Anti · Jul 27, 2011

I don't really get the thing about Taunt being an issue for Wobbuffet. I mean yeah, it beats it, but it's not like Ice Shard Mamoswine beating Salamence in that it doesn't prevent Wobbuffet from doing its job. As a trapper, only a few things on a team need to be vulnerable to it for it to have an impact. And if it gets a kill and a Taunt user comes in, Wobbuffet can just switch out.

That being said, I used it when I first started with BW and found him tricky to use, mostly because Encore would be a real pain with how it doesn't last as long. I was the most successful when I knew its limits. Sometimes I would overestimate it and it would get beaten up. But it can definitely be useful.

Spoiler:

Dark Azelf · Aug 4, 2011

Wow has anyone being playing the metagame recently ? Its horrible. =/

Ive just been laddering and i swear i must keep facing the same teams over and over again or something. I got top 20 and this is all you see;

- Annoying U-Turn and Volt Switch spam teams (where have these all come from ?)
- Weather
- Dragon + Steel spam.

Also dont see why Dragonite is getting used more, its really bad. Its slow, easy to stop and its ability hardly ever even factors thanks to Sand and SR being ridiculously common.

Thats literally all the metagame is. -_-

champagnepapi · Aug 4, 2011

Dark Azelf said:
Wow has anyone being playing the metagame recently ? Its horrible. =/

Ive just been laddering and i swear i must keep facing the same teams over and over again or something. I got top 20 and this is all you see;

- Annoying U-Turn and Volt Switch spam teams (where have these all come from ?)
- Weather
- Dragon + Steel spam.

Also dont see why Dragonite is getting used more, its really bad. Its slow, easy to stop and its ability hardly ever even factors thanks to Sand and SR being ridiculously common.

Thats literally all the metagame is. -_-

THIS THIS THIS THIS.

The Annoying V-Switch U-Turn teams aren't really bannable, since neither Scizor nor Rotom-W is horribly broken enough to be worthy of nomination, but the fact that Rotom-W beats Scizor's counters so well, and vice versa makes them extremely dangerous and annoying, especially when the Scizor has Roost on it. I figure people are using these teams because of how effective they are and how tough they are to beat unless you play your cards right, meaning that they're an easy road to getting vreqs. Dragonite's actually pretty dangerous though, and can function as an extremely bulky sweeper due to MultiScale.

Dark Azelf · Aug 4, 2011

Karpman said:
THIS THIS THIS THIS.

The Annoying V-Switch U-Turn teams aren't really bannable, since neither Scizor nor Rotom-W is horribly broken enough to be worthy of nomination, but the fact that Rotom-W beats Scizor's counters so well, and vice versa makes them extremely dangerous and annoying, especially when the Scizor has Roost on it. I figure people are using these teams because of how effective they are and how tough they are to beat unless you play your cards right, meaning that they're an easy road to getting vreqs. Dragonite's actually pretty dangerous though, and can function as an extremely bulky sweeper due to MultiScale.

Not to mention all the stupid random crap people use. I mean seriously, why would you use NP Celebi when Latios/ Balloon Heatran etc are like on near every team ? ~~

Also, CM Latios is very broken. :/

champagnepapi · Aug 4, 2011

Dark Azelf said:
Not to mention all the stupid random crap people use. I mean seriously, why would you use NP Celebi when Latios/ Balloon Heatran etc are like on near every team ? ~~

Also, CM Latios is very broken. :/

Well Rotom-W and Ferrothorn are on nearly every team as well, and Celebi can deal with both easily, as well as many other Pokemon. I've never fought CM Latios, but I figure Jirachi handles it in the same way it does Reuniclus, and has a much easier time doing so, since Latios is frailer.

Dark Azelf · Aug 4, 2011

Karpman said:
Well Rotom-W and Ferrothorn are on nearly every team as well, and Celebi can deal with both easily, as well as many other Pokemon. I've never fought CM Latios, but I figure Jirachi handles it in the same way it does Reuniclus, and has a much easier time doing so, since Latios is frailer.

The offensive CM LO Latios in rain really wears on even SpDef Jirachi with Surf. ):

In rain, unboosted Surf does : 36.6% - 43.3%

+1 LO Surf does ; 54.7% - 64.6%

So you have to keep your Jirachi at tip top condition throughout the whole match which is easier said than done.

CM LO Latios in rain also OHKO's standard CB Scizor at +1 and does 79.9% - 94.2% to max hp/max sp.def Adamant Scizor. ~~

Then in the last slot you can choose between HP Fight to dent Ferrothorn and KO Tar or Psyshock for Blissey. Weee fun. x.x

Vrai · Aug 4, 2011

I've caught several DD Latios w/ Waterfall in rain. I guess it's a neat idea, depending on how worn down Skarmory/Ferrothorn/Zong on the other team is. I dunno what the third move is, just Waterfall/DD/Outrage because I've always managed to get it down before it gets out of hand but it seems like an innovative idea to try.

Rotom-W and Scizor are popular together because they easily wear down on each other's counters and easily shift momentum when used effectively. Couple that with hazards and a strong, fluid offensive core and you have a team capable of breaking top 20. NP Bi rose in usage because it can effectively OHKO both (not in rain!). And really, don't downplay Celebi so much. Excadrill is still used a lot despite the fact that every team has a Gliscor and/or Skarmory. Celebi can run Earth Power for Tran (and works as a cute Tran lure in that regard) and there are tons of ways to deal with Latios. Even if one Pokemon is walled you have the rest of your team to deal with that, lol. And Celebi does force switches which you can take advantage of, etc.

I've heard a lot about CM Latios lately too. Then again, it's crazy how many stay in on ScarfTar Crunch to get OHKOd as they try to dent it with HP Fighting probably. ScarfTar is actually really usable imo, nabbing Lati@s, Gengar, Thundurus, Tornadus, all of the base 108s, Starmie... idk, its just been very effective for me and I have no reason to change the set.

There's innovation, you just have to look for it. Isn't that the way it always is?

Dark Azelf · Aug 4, 2011

Vrai said:
I've caught several DD Latios w/ Waterfall in rain. I guess it's a neat idea, depending on how worn down Skarmory/Ferrothorn/Zong on the other team is. I dunno what the third move is, just Waterfall/DD/Outrage because I've always managed to get it down before it gets out of hand but it seems like an innovative idea to try.

Rotom-W and Scizor are popular together because they easily wear down on each other's counters and easily shift momentum when used effectively. Couple that with hazards and a strong, fluid offensive core and you have a team capable of breaking top 20. NP Bi rose in usage because it can effectively OHKO both (not in rain!). And really, don't downplay Celebi so much. Excadrill is still used a lot despite the fact that every team has a Gliscor and/or Skarmory. Celebi can run Earth Power for Tran (and works as a cute Tran lure in that regard) and there are tons of ways to deal with Latios. Even if one Pokemon is walled you have the rest of your team to deal with that, lol. And Celebi does force switches which you can take advantage of, etc.

I've heard a lot about CM Latios lately too. Then again, it's crazy how many stay in on ScarfTar Crunch to get OHKOd as they try to dent it with HP Fighting probably. ScarfTar is actually really usable imo, nabbing Lati@s, Gengar, Thundurus, Tornadus, all of the base 108s, Starmie... idk, its just been very effective for me and I have no reason to change the set.

There's innovation, you just have to look for it. Isn't that the way it always is?

Well the problem with Celebi is it has 4ms syndrome. If you dont use HP Fire you Scizor, Ferro, Skarm etc bait and if you dont use Hp Ice you lose to things like Hydreigon, Latios, Dragonite etc and without Psychic you cant check Conkeldurr which is one of its selling points imo. Excadrill is very different in that its only walled effectively by Gliscor (Skarm is a crap Excadrill counter imo, Rock Slide Flinches wear it down and it cant do anything back and more often than not its Rapid Spin fodder for Excadrill anyway lol) and Bronzong to an extent otherwise you need fighting/water priority.

Havent seen a DD Latios yet, but i can imagine luring and OHKOing Jirachi and Tyranitar with DD LO EQ is hilarious lol. I still fail to see why it isnt banned though, its so obviously broken. ~~

Also ive been seen a couple of these semi stall teams with stuff like (Toxic) Spikes Rest Roserade and SR Heatran. They dont seem to work at all though lol. :/

Vrai · Aug 5, 2011

Dark Azelf said:
Well the problem with Celebi is it has 4ms syndrome. If you dont use HP Fire you Scizor, Ferro, Skarm etc bait and if you dont use Hp Ice you lose to things like Hydreigon, Latios, Dragonite etc and without Psychic you cant check Conkeldurr which is one of its selling points imo. Excadrill is very different in that its only walled effectively by Gliscor (Skarm is a crap Excadrill counter imo, Rock Slide Flinches wear it down and it cant do anything back and more often than not its Rapid Spin fodder for Excadrill anyway lol) and Bronzong to an extent otherwise you need fighting/water priority.

Havent seen a DD Latios yet, but i can imagine luring and OHKOing Jirachi and Tyranitar with DD LO EQ is hilarious lol. I still fail to see why it isnt banned though, its so obviously broken. ~~

Also ive been seen a couple of these semi stall teams with stuff like (Toxic) Spikes Rest Roserade and SR Heatran. They dont seem to work at all though lol. :/

Ehh, yeah. You always do have the option of forgoing Nasty Plot and running another coverage move there because if what you're looking for is something that can deal with a variety of threats setting up for a sweep isn't so necessary. Plus the only time I ever really find myself needing Nasty Plot is versus those Tyranitars and Jirachis that end up coming in on you anyway, and then you'd still only 2hko with the appropriate coverage move with Bi anyway. I've never actually used HP Ice on Celebi actually; I don't imagine it'll do enough to anything but Dragonite anyway since the other two have the bulk to take random HP Ices and OHKO Celebi.

Excadrill is very good, I'll agree. Buuut the only time that it's really um an issue for me is if I let it get any kind of setup. More often than not every single mon on my team carries a supereffective move on it somehow, and then having a solid check in Rotom-W, Bronzong, or Gliscor is helpful. A lot of people are starting to catch on that Excadrill is the best spinner in the game and starting to abuse that, lol. @@

DD Latios actually sounds fun lol. I'm gonna try that later. Roserade has actually jumped up in usage lately, probably mostly because of Rotom-W. There have really been a lot of people trying to follow after Bloo's semistall-ish team that he won the Frontier with, using a basic core that checks each weather and then building the rest around that. They're interesting but no one can really play them as well as Bloo did, lol. :(

...

(23:09:36) oppoSITE DAY left the channel.
(23:13:23) +Aero: each moment that passes
(23:13:29) +Aero: is one moment closer. :<
(23:13:30) +wolf: let's hope he'll find time to come on every once and a while
(23:14:06) +Anti: i hope he makes an epic return in two years
(23:14:06) Farmer Bill: hear hear

champagnepapi · Aug 5, 2011

Dark Azelf said:
Well the problem with Celebi is it has 4ms syndrome. If you dont use HP Fire you Scizor, Ferro, Skarm etc bait and if you dont use Hp Ice you lose to things like Hydreigon, Latios, Dragonite etc and without Psychic you cant check Conkeldurr which is one of its selling points imo. Excadrill is very different in that its only walled effectively by Gliscor (Skarm is a crap Excadrill counter imo, Rock Slide Flinches wear it down and it cant do anything back and more often than not its Rapid Spin fodder for Excadrill anyway lol) and Bronzong to an extent otherwise you need fighting/water priority.

Havent seen a DD Latios yet, but i can imagine luring and OHKOing Jirachi and Tyranitar with DD LO EQ is hilarious lol. I still fail to see why it isnt banned though, its so obviously broken. ~~

Also ive been seen a couple of these semi stall teams with stuff like (Toxic) Spikes Rest Roserade and SR Heatran. They dont seem to work at all though lol. :/

Well Celebi takes a huge chunk out of Conk with Giga Drain, even at +0, so I don't think Psychic is needed, and I don't see the value in HP Ice because Hydreigon are usually scarfed and Latios straight up outspeeds. I agree about the Skarm thing, since I've used Skarm as a last resort on Excadrill myself, and it can't do much back. And this team uses both and also "Worked", considering it beat the frontier. I think the team also serves as a "personification" what the metagame should be. It's capable of handling weather without using any, but Latios and Reuniclus are the only two Pokemon capable of tearing a hole through the team, which should serve as a red flag that the two are broken, in that they restrict defensive team to use Specially Defensive Jirachi, CB Tar or ultimately be swept by Latios/Reuniclus or a combo of both. Also, goodbye to Opposite Day.

Kevin Garrett · Aug 5, 2011

Celebi doesn't suffer badly from 4 move slot syndrome. Its lack of universal coverage is amended by good team support. Every team needs to be able to cover the major Steel- and Dragon-type threats. Hidden Power Fire is more of a necessity on Celebi than Hidden Power Ice because its immediate checks will likely be a Steel-type. Dragons can be handled through defensive coverage, Toxic Spikes, or even Pursuit, depending upon what the Dragon in question is. Not to mention a lot of Dragons are faster than Celebi, meaning they will get a good shot at you before you can attack them. The last move can either be Psychic or Recover depending upon what you are going for. Psychic gives Celebi a lot of good neutral coverage. As for the Tabloo RMT being what the metagame should be, I disagree with that notion entirely. There shouldn't be a stigma about using weather if it's allowed. Just because the two threats you mentioned, Latios and Reuniclus, are good against Tabloo doesn't mean they are broken. Every team is incapable of handling every threat. Tabloo is not just weak to those Pokemon either. It is also weak to a good Dugtrio Sun or balanced/stall Sand teams. It relies on a lot of passive damage to be good and with Gengar as the only Spin blocker, it makes it difficult to play against something with an offensive Spinner.

Dark Azelf · Aug 10, 2011

One tends to get bored sometimes. =P

At long last huh ? #2 @ ou ranking kept haunting me lol

EDIT:

I really dislike the rating system of Pokemon Online, you lose once and you're essentially screwed see: e.g ass -23 matches. And have to start from alot lower, makes it so much more tedious, ugh lol. :/ Needs changing imo.

EDIT 2: Wait Oppo left ? :/

.Aero · Aug 11, 2011

o.o Very nice elf. :3 And yeah, Oppo left for his on the 4th. :[ It was sad. ;o;

Dark Azelf · Aug 11, 2011

.Aero said:
o.o Very nice elf. :3 And yeah, Oppo left for his on the 4th. :[ It was sad. ;o;

I increased my rating to a whopping 1508 now, "just because i can" lol. Closest person has 1483. =P The ladder is REALLY hard atm, pain in the ass. Glad im seeing some cool new stuff though like Eo Ut Mortus using SD Cacturne in OU and getting top ten.

Damn, that sucks. I wanted to organise something with him cos he is in England and we could hang out/go drinking etc. :/

Vrai · Aug 11, 2011

Dark Azelf said:
I increased my rating to a whopping 1508 now, "just because i can" lol. Closest person has 1483. =P The ladder is REALLY hard atm, pain in the ass. Glad im seeing some cool new stuff though like Eo Ut Mortus using SD Cacturne in OU and getting top ten.

Damn, that sucks. I wanted to organise something with him cos he is in England and we could hang out/go drinking etc. :/

Hehe I never saw his Cacturne actually do anything in my match vs him. ;) I assumed it was a Spikes variant though. :x

I'm getting around to nearly perfecting my team, I think. Despite how awesome Crustle is, really all it did for my team was ensure that SR was up and I needed better checks for things like Volcarona than that lol. :( Speaking of which! Volcarona is really, really annoying when it's played right. There are like no checks for it once it gets beyond +1 and can like KO everything with a little hazard support. Scarf Terrakion is like the best 'check' for it imo but then you have to rely on Stone Edge and the fact that it doesn't just attack with its HP of choice (or Psychic lol) and mash you. You have to rely on getting rocks up and keeping them up (which is hard when their team is like focused on keeping them down lol) to prevent it from really doing its job. Maybe I'm just battling really good Volcarona users but its gotten to the point that I'm just like "ugh" whenever I see one. :(

There's a way to contact him if you really wanna but idk if he can even go do stuff like that with how focused all of his stuff is lol. :(

Dark Azelf · Aug 11, 2011

Vrai said:
Hehe I never saw his Cacturne actually do anything in my match vs him. ;) I assumed it was a Spikes variant though. :x

I'm getting around to nearly perfecting my team, I think. Despite how awesome Crustle is, really all it did for my team was ensure that SR was up and I needed better checks for things like Volcarona than that lol. :( Speaking of which! Volcarona is really, really annoying when it's played right. There are like no checks for it once it gets beyond +1 and can like KO everything with a little hazard support. Scarf Terrakion is like the best 'check' for it imo but then you have to rely on Stone Edge and the fact that it doesn't just attack with its HP of choice (or Psychic lol) and mash you. You have to rely on getting rocks up and keeping them up (which is hard when their team is like focused on keeping them down lol) to prevent it from really doing its job. Maybe I'm just battling really good Volcarona users but its gotten to the point that I'm just like "ugh" whenever I see one. :(

There's a way to contact him if you really wanna but idk if he can even go do stuff like that with how focused all of his stuff is lol. :(

He abuses SD Sub Cacturne and that new Glislure set to abuse sandveil hax, its annoying. But yeah you crushed him badly lol.

Volcarona is BS really, i hate facing them too. If you cant keep rocks up, "good luck" and those Morning Sun/Chesto Rest sets UGHHHH. Chesto Rest even sets up on Toxic Blissey and waters lol. Snorlax is an overlooked counter for it though. Other than that you have revenge kill it pretty much. =/

Gonna nom Reuniclus, Sandveil/Snowcloak (you would not believe how many Cacturne/Gliscor sweeps ive seen by EuM because of this), Latios and then something of either Baton Pass MM Espeon, Smeargle, Gorebyss, Shell Smash + Baton Pass on the same set, SmashPass w/MM Espeon on the same team this round. Just something to stop BP BS, even with multiple PHazers (even Dragon Tail) its too powerful and you NEED Haze/Clear Smog (lol steel receiver) or P-Song to have even a hope, (or Brick Break i guess for screens idk) that or you can try and pull like a lucky string of crits out of the bag. :/ I think Espeon overpowers it mainly though as you literally cant stop it doing its job so i need to think about it lol.

Sure id like to contact him since i didnt say a chance to say goodbye properly either. He better be able to drink too but being Mormon i doubt it haha. I dont know anything about that religion sadly so i wouldn't know if he can. Only thing i know is you're meant to be allowed multiple wives ? :s

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