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Debate Abortion Page 3

Started by erik destler 2 Weeks Ago 2:13 PM
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I literally never said a "fetus is a human being". It's not a totally unreasonable thing to say, being that biologically they are, but my argument always centred on equivalent value (everyone being a clump of cells) not on what anything is.

Governments police just about everything we do, including in many ways our bodies. It's what governments do. Why is not okay for a government to decide what others do with their bodies but it's perfectly okay for a pregnant woman to decide on her own whether a separate living being lives or dies? Just because she happens to have had the bad luck of being born the one with the womb? Yeah no.

I can and do call myself an egalitarian. I very much believe that all people are of equal value and deserve equal opportunities. My beliefs on this subject do not take away from that.
thats literally not “eGaLiTaRiAn” at all. childbirth is inherently unequal because the person who’s carrying the baby has to spend much more time and energy. im curious to know how its fair that one person has to derail their life for almost a year while the other person gets off free. I really cant think of any weird way to justify thinking its fair to give someone an unfair advantage just because they werent born with a womb.

also that why are women allowed to take control over their own bodies while the government cant comment is a big piles of yikes.

gimmepie

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thats literally not “eGaLiTaRiAn” at all. childbirth is inherently unequal because the person who’s carrying the baby has to spend much more time and energy. im curious to know how its fair that one person has to derail their life for almost a year while the other person gets off free. I really cant think of any weird way to justify thinking its fair to give someone an unfair advantage just because they werent born with a womb.

also that why are women allowed to take control over their own bodies while the government cant comment is a big piles of yikes.
eGaLiTaRiAn.
Nice.

I hope you realise that the average pregnancy is not nearly as debilitating as you're suggesting. It's not until quite late into a pregnancy that you need to start making very serious alterations to your lifestyle. I've known women who worked as dancers for the vast majority of their pregnancies. That is a very physically demanding job. If they can do that, people with a more average lifestyle can manage.

You can't change biology. You can make sure that all lives are treated with the same value. Egalitarianism is literally the belief that all members of our species have the same value and should be extended the same rights and opportunities. Nothing I have said goes against that. If anything discussed in this thread does, it's giving a woman the right to end another life because she doesn't want to deal with a child without giving the baby's father a say in the matter at all.

What you're calling "taking control of their own bodies" is literally killing a separate biological entity. It's got a lot more to do with taking control of a different body/life than it does with maintaining control of your own.

Neil Peart

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"the average pregnancy is not nearly as debilitating as you're suggesting"

Unless those words are coming from a woman who has been pregnant or an OB/GYN, I don't want to hear them. For every one woman you've known who worked through a pregnancy, there are probably a hundred who couldn't. And the main reason women continue to work while pregnant is livelihood, when they should be given paid time off with no exceptions in the first place. And I would certainly caution anyone against listening to a pro-lifer about matters of women's biology, as they are more often than not VERY misogynistic and eager to spread nonsense to artificially substantiate their "clumps of cells are lives too" agenda.

And yes, you're pro-life. You already passed the "a clump of cells is a life" test; you may as well just embrace it now. But, if it helps you project this image of "rational centrism" I can assume you're after, so be it.
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Vragon2.0

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And I would certainly caution anyone against listening to a pro-lifer about matters of women's biology, as they are more often than not VERY misogynistic and eager to spread nonsense to artificially substantiate their "clumps of cells are lives too" agenda.
https://catholicherald.co.uk/news/2015/04/27/labour-and-lib-dem-voters-more-likely-to-support-tighter-abortion-laws-than-conservatives-poll-shows/

https://news.gallup.com/poll/244709/pro-choice-pro-life-2018-demographic-tables.aspx

whoops.

Edit: https://news.gallup.com/poll/235445/abortion-attitudes-remain-closely-divided.aspx
Also, not joining the debate per se, but I just wanted to present some statistics that could be interesting for this. Take the first link with a grain of salt, but the other two are at least better in this regard with links to their sources.

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Hands

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https://catholicherald.co.uk/news/2015/04/27/labour-and-lib-dem-voters-more-likely-to-support-tighter-abortion-laws-than-conservatives-poll-shows/

https://news.gallup.com/poll/244709/pro-choice-pro-life-2018-demographic-tables.aspx

whoops.

Edit: https://news.gallup.com/poll/235445/abortion-attitudes-remain-closely-divided.aspx
Also, not joining the debate per se, but I just wanted to present some statistics that could be interesting for this. Take the first link with a grain of salt, but the other two are at least better in this regard with links to their sources.



That first link is kind of strange, because the divide is more clearly between men and women asked, and all were from marginal seats. So there could be a lot more at play than "conservatives are more pro choice". There's also the fact that it's a UK poll, where our Conservatives are much less harsh on civil and social rights. It was a Conservative British govt that passed marriage equality, although it got support across the board. The overton window in Britain is in a very different place to where it is in America

Vragon2.0

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That first link is kind of strange, because the divide is more clearly between men and women asked, and all were from marginal seats. So there could be a lot more at play than "conservatives are more pro choice". There's also the fact that it's a UK poll, where our Conservatives are much less harsh on civil and social rights. It was a Conservative British govt that passed marriage equality, although it got support across the board. The overton window in Britain is in a very different place to where it is in America
Yeah, I realized too late what exactly I was linking too and it wouldn't feel right to just simply remove since well "I posted it" so I can take an "L" for that and left the message on it and all. I do hope the statistics on the other two can be beneficial to this discussion and all unless they've already been linked before in which case.....Whoops on myself.

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Yeah, I realized too late what exactly I was linking too and it wouldn't feel right to just simply remove since well "I posted it" so I can take an "L" for that and left the message on it and all. I do hope the statistics on the other two can be beneficial to this discussion and all unless they've already been linked before in which case.....Whoops on myself.
I don't think the first link wasn't valuable, but I think context needs to be applied to it as a resource (and I fully appreciate that you did indeed tell readers to take it with a pinch of salt)

Mystical Isa

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I think gimmepie's arguments are reasonable even if I may not agree with everything he's said. The thing about pro-choice for me, though, is the belief of "live and let live". Being pro-choice doesn't mean you're pro-abortion, not necessarily. It just means you don't impose your believes on others. I can understand and respect pro-lifers but not when they want to impose their believes on others.

Think of it this way. If it was the other way around how would you feel? If you were negated even the possibility to have offspring? Wouldn't you prefer to be given the choice?

Maedar

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"Reasonable" does not even come close to describing Republican views on abortion. Read this article:

https://www.salon.com/2019/12/02/ohio-abortion-murder-bill-orders-doctors-to-reimplant-ectopic-pregnancy-which-is-impossible/

The scariest part about this is that there are actually 19 lawmakers willing to see this abomination signed into law.

Stories like this reassure me, day after day, week after week, that continuing to oppose the Republican Party was the right choice.
There are three certainties in life, death, taxes, and that someone will eventually tell you the thing about death and taxes.

gimmepie

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"Reasonable" does not even come close to describing Republican views on abortion. Read this article:
Sure, but she was talking about my views and I think I have long since proven I'm no Republican, regardless of what Neil has decided.

I think on the count of not necessarily imposing your beliefs on others, I am quite in line with Isa actually. If, as this thread has done, asked what my stance is, I'm not going to shy away from giving it or defending it, but I don't agree with what the pro-life picketers do any more than I agree with a 100% pro-choice policy. Something interesting I've seen though, even in this thread, is that by and large it's been the pro-life side I've come across that are willing to take Isa's approach. Is this an example of a wider trend? No idea. But it's interesting from an anecdotal perspective.

Maedar

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The thing is, Gimmepie, most pro-lifers think the pro-choice crowd is "pro-abortion".

Contrary to what they claim, the United States has never had a "100% pro-choice" policy. Late term abortion has ALWAYS been considered murder in this country.

I agree, as a lifelong Democrat, there should be limits. Second trimester maximum, and legitimate reasons given when the mother is perfectly capable of raising the child. However, laws that pro-lifers try to pass that would force a teenage rape victim to carry the child to term are downright cruel, and lawmakers who try to pass "trap-laws" designed to force clinics into closing by demanding they have hospital-level facilities are not fooling anyone but themselves. "Personhood" law proposals are the worst.

The biggest desire Democrats have is a return to lucidity in our government, and for lawmakers to stop regarding us as a bunch of gullible suckers.
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Mystical Isa

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What that article described is outrightly stupid and I seriously hope those laws don't get approved. Like I said, I'm pro-choice and I believe none of us have the right to decide for others. What we can do, however, is make an informed decision and help others make an informed decision too.

About some points:

We can't say with 100% certainty that a fetus in development is just a clump of cells. But we also can't say with 100% certainty that it isn't. So let everyone decide for themselves. Debating is good, but not imposing your believes.

About biological females making the full decision of aborting, for one, there are ways of preventing a pregnancy. I won't touch on how people feel about the procedure of abortion itself, but I do wish it was legal yet that the need for it was much less common that it probably is.

On the note of the biological males being consulted about the abortion, obvs if it's rape then they shouldn't have a say at all. But if the act was consentiual, but, say, it was an accident that despite their care they still got pregnant, and the biological female doesn't want the baby at all, maybe they should at least ask about the other parent's opinion. Maybe there's an agreement that can be reached through communication, or if the female doesn't want the child, their partner would at least be able to voice their opinions. I do think they should at least know about the pregnancy, and in an ideal world, both parents should decide what to do together.

Overall, I just don't think these kind of things should be taken so lightly.

Note: I used "biological female/male" to talk about people who were born with either sex. I'm not referring to whichever gender they prefer to go by.

Maedar

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Here's another one. Hear of this story?

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/alabama-woman-shooting-miscarraige-manslaughter_n_5d14afc2e4b09ad014fba030

Or this one?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/sep/01/purvi-patel-freed-immediately-feticide-conviction-overturned

"Pro-lifers", right, this is misogyny, and it has gone too far. Are we not a civilized nation??
There are three certainties in life, death, taxes, and that someone will eventually tell you the thing about death and taxes.

Nah

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oh yeah I remember that Alabama one

iirc fortunately the charges were dropped or something

still kind of psyducked up though, but Alabama is also one of our most backwards states so it's not unexpected that it even happened in the first place
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Here's another one. Hear of this story?

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/alabama-woman-shooting-miscarraige-manslaughter_n_5d14afc2e4b09ad014fba030

Or this one?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/sep/01/purvi-patel-freed-immediately-feticide-conviction-overturned

"Pro-lifers", right, this is misogyny, and it has gone too far. Are we not a civilized nation??
I disagree that either case is “misogyny”.

Case 1 was kind of stupid but they’d charge her if an innocent bystander that wasn’t a fetus was shot and killed due to her actions. Ambivalent on it.

Case 2 was a viable or almost viable fetus (based on which side you agree with) that died. A doctor who helped look for the discarded baby stated it would have been born moving. Can’t find anything on what the jury was composed of for this case.
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Getting back on the topic of abortion and not a Republican/Democrat mukfest.... I have been wondering if a father has no say on if a mother gets an abortion. Then should we also change on how we force fathers to pay child support for the child they fathered?

It seems only fair that if a mother gets to choose to keep the child or not, then the father should be able to choose if he wants to pay for it or not.

Dimitri

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I think it's more decent for them to discuss it and make the best decision together, but a lot of guys just knock girls up then leave them, which I think is wrong.
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gimmepie

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I think it's more decent for them to discuss it and make the best decision together, but a lot of guys just knock girls up then leave them, which I think is wrong.
At which point I imagine you pretty much forfeit the chance to give your opinion.

Dimitri

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At which point I imagine you pretty much forfeit the chance to give your opinion.
Yes thats when i think they should not be allowed, or considered. If you want to have sex like that use protection or pay the girl whos life you changed forever.
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Hands

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Getting back on the topic of abortion and not a Republican/Democrat mukfest.... I have been wondering if a father has no say on if a mother gets an abortion. Then should we also change on how we force fathers to pay child support for the child they fathered?

It seems only fair that if a mother gets to choose to keep the child or not, then the father should be able to choose if he wants to pay for it or not.

For someone who put forward a pro-life stance earlier it seems incredibly strange to me that you would advocate leaving a living child without financial security.


To answer your question though, absolutely you should be able to opt out. It should be a legal thing that bars you from any access to the child. If we had a state that adequately cared for those who need it this would be fine.

Maedar

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Getting back on the topic of abortion and not a Republican/Democrat mukfest.... I have been wondering if a father has no say on if a mother gets an abortion. Then should we also change on how we force fathers to pay child support for the child they fathered?
If the father sired the child via consensual sex, yes.

If the pregnancy was due to rape or incest, NO, the criminal responsible should have no say, and a sane judge should fine him for even wasting the court's time.
There are three certainties in life, death, taxes, and that someone will eventually tell you the thing about death and taxes.
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