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[Spoilers] I think it is pretty much confirmed that series is set in a different universe

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There's a noticeable tone change from XY to SuMo

There was a tone change from DP to BW, so that's not a valid argument

A franchise is allowed to change tones between installments. The SM series is not the XY series.
 

BlazingCobaltX

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The only thing that makes me worry about SM being set in an entirely different universe is that the 20th movie is supposed to be a reboot of the original Indigo League episodes, but includes some bizarre changes (no Misty/Brock, Pok?mon from other gens). I'm still hoping for the movie to be redeemable but I'm honestly thrown off that both the SM anime and the 20th movie are very different than the rest of the anime (and I'm not talking about tone change or shift in animation style here).
 
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The only thing that makes me worry about SM being set in an entirely different universe is that the 20th movie is supposed to be a reboot of the original Indigo League episodes, but includes some bizarre changes (no Misty/Brock, Pok?mon from other gens). I'm still hoping for the movie to be redeemable but I'm honestly thrown off that both the SM anime and the 20th movie are very different than the rest of the anime (and I'm not talking about tone change or shift in animation style here).

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DEEZy6NXcAAwNcc.jpg

Previous companions made cameos in the credits of the movie, and Gary got a non-spoken split-second cameo in the movie itself.
 
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https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DEEZy6NXcAAwNcc.jpg

Previous companions made cameos in the credits of the movie, and Gary got a non-spoken split-second cameo in the movie itself.

So why did they even bother to make different characters join Ash and also have him have a different rival if it wasn't meant to be a reboot/alternate universe in the first place? Wouldn't it have been simpler to actually include them and thus make it obvious it's in the same universe? That would have cut down significantly on the alternate universe hints.
 

Alexander18

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We don't need past characters or pokemon to prove that SM is in the same universe as the others. SM is in the same universe as previous seasons. Alternate universes don't exist in pokemon anime.
 
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We don't need past characters or pokemon to prove that SM is in the same universe as the others. SM is in the same universe as previous seasons. Alternate universes don't exist in pokemon anime.

Yeah, well, tell that to M20, where Ash is travelling with a completely different group and has a completely different rival despite it essentially retelling his first day as a trainer (in fact, if that tweet is to be believed, the only time they even appear is either in the credits, or in the case of Gary, a very split-second in the movie itself). That certainly points to an AU, at least, especially if that movie actually is tied to SM. Even IF SM is separate from M20 for once (which, going by that prequel manga, it probably isn't), it's pretty clear that M20 most certainly is in an Alternate Universe due to the fact that Ash is traveling with two completely different people and has a completely different rival.
 
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Alexander18

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Yeah, well, tell that to M20, where Ash is travelling with a completely different group and has a completely different rival despite it essentially retelling his first day as a trainer (in fact, if that tweet is to be believed, the only time they even appear is either in the credits, or in the case of Gary, a very split-second in the movie itself). That certainly points to an AU, at least, especially if that movie actually is tied to SM. Even IF SM is separate from M20 for once (which, going by that prequel manga, it probably isn't), it's pretty clear that M20 most certainly is in an Alternate Universe due to the fact that Ash is traveling with two completely different people and has a completely different rival.
Well that is the movie. I talking of anime series. I sincerely doubt that SM season exists in another universe. Makes no sense and illogical to the show.
 
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Well that is the movie. I talking of anime series. I sincerely doubt that SM season exists in another universe. Makes no sense and illogical to the show.

Well, either way, we'll see. Though I have my doubts, especially when one of the prequel manga leading up to the movie was pretty obviously set during SM, as you can see here: https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Pocket_Monsters_the_Movie:_I_Choose_You!_(one-shot) That manga pretty obviously implied that M20 was also set within the Sun and Moon anime series, meaning if M20 is an AU, that must mean SM is an AU as well. Stupid promo manga...
 

CidHazard

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We don't need past characters or pokemon to prove that SM is in the same universe as the others. SM is in the same universe as previous seasons. Alternate universes don't exist in pokemon anime.

That's where your wrong sir... Parallel Universes do exist in the anime.

XY Episode 37 : The Cave of Mirrors

Synopsis: While the gang are exploring the reflection cave, Ash's reflection snatches Pikachu away, prompting him to follow into the world within the mirror. Where we meet alternate versions of the gang.

The mirror world is a Parallel Universe sir... So they do exist in the Pokemon World.

-Side note-

Parallel Universe in the Pokemon games we play... From the begging Red and Blue no matter how similar in terms of story is still an alternate universe, since we find different pokemon in those worlds. The Delta Episode in ORAS also alludes to the fact that there are alternate universes in the Pokemon Mythos. Heck SuMo has you going into a Parallel world where time is reversed and you have an alternate time and able to catch an alternate legendary.

What about Pokemon Origins? Origins ret-cons Red and Blue's story by introducing the Mega stones in the first generation. Isn't that an alternate universe to the original story?

Again in the end what we need is evidence... As long as we don't see an older character returns and remembers Satoshi... then the SuMo series is suspect to being an Alternate Universe.
 

Alexander18

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That's where your wrong sir... Parallel Universes do exist in the anime.

XY Episode 37 : The Cave of Mirrors

Synopsis: While the gang are exploring the reflection cave, Ash's reflection snatches Pikachu away, prompting him to follow into the world within the mirror. Where we meet alternate versions of the gang.

The mirror world is a Parallel Universe sir... So they do exist in the Pokemon World.
I don't think so. Mirror world is just a mirror world. That is not even the point. Point Ash in Alola is the same Ash of Kalos, Unova, Sinnoh, Battle Frontier, Hoenn, Johto, Orange Islands and Kanto.

Well, either way, we'll see. Though I have my doubts, especially when one of the prequel manga leading up to the movie was pretty obviously set during SM, as you can see here: https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Pocket_Monsters_the_Movie:_I_Choose_You!_(one-shot) That manga pretty obviously implied that M20 was also set within the Sun and Moon anime series, meaning if M20 is an AU, that must mean SM is an AU as well. Stupid promo manga...

I disagree. Manga is not canon. Also Ash in SM is the same Ash as past seasons.
 

CidHazard

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I don't think so. Mirror world is just a mirror world. That is not even the point. Point Ash in Alola is the same Ash of Kalos, Unova, Sinnoh, Battle Frontier, Hoenn, Johto, Orange Islands and Kanto.

Wait...

We don't need past characters or pokemon to prove that SM is in the same universe as the others. SM is in the same universe as previous seasons. [Alternate universes don't exist in pokemon anime.

The whole point of this argument is that The Pokemon Series does not have an Alternate universe... given that the Mirror World was an Alternate universe, makes your argument moot sir.

I have stated evidence that could prove the plausibility of SuMo being an alternate Universe. The biggest being the ret-con of the origins of Ash and Pikachu in the new movie, and a simple "but that couldn't happen" is really weak rebuttal to a rather reasonable observation.

All we really know is that this Ash has dealt with Touros before... that's it... No proof that he wen't to Kalos, Unova, etc...

-Break-

Really until an old character returns or if Ash States that he's been to said other regions, or remembers old characters... then there is no proof. (????)?
 

Alexander18

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Wait...



The whole point of this argument is that The Pokemon Series does not have an Alternate universe... given that the Mirror World was an Alternate universe, makes your argument moot sir.

I have stated evidence that could prove the plausibility of SuMo being an alternate Universe. The biggest being the ret-con of the origins of Ash and Pikachu in the new movie, and a simple "but that couldn't happen" is really weak rebuttal to a rather reasonable observation.

All we really know is that this Ash has dealt with Touros before... that's it... No proof that he wen't to Kalos, Unova, etc...

-Break-

Really until an old character returns or if Ash States that he's been to said other regions, or remembers old characters... then there is no proof. (????)?
No. There is no evidence of sun and moon series been in alternate universe. They don't need to bring a character back to prove so because it is not mandatory. Also ash's mum made an appearance so that counts as a past character from older series returning. My argument is good.
 

CidHazard

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No. There is no evidence of sun and moon series been in alternate universe. They don't need to bring a character back to prove so because it is not mandatory. Also ash's mum made an appearance so that counts as a past character from older series returning. My argument is good.

What about the new Movie... where stuff that never happened. that's called a retcon sir... new continuity...

Where did Delia (ash's Mom) originate exactly... oh wait the original series... So who's to say that this Delia isn't like her son an alternate version? Argument invalid XD

An XY character has to return and remember Ash... why? If an older character like Misty or May comes back... then that would still put into question the continuity of series.

Here :
If a gen 1 character comes back and no one else - That would mean that gen's 2-6 characters never existed in the universe.

If a gen 5 character comes back and no one else - That would mean gen 1-5 characters are part of the new universe but that would put into question characters from gen 6.

UNTI A GEN 6 CHARACTER REMEBERS ASH THERE IS NO EVIDENCE!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cphNpqKpKc4

-side note-

This is fun XD
 
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I don't think so. Mirror world is just a mirror world. That is not even the point. Point Ash in Alola is the same Ash of Kalos, Unova, Sinnoh, Battle Frontier, Hoenn, Johto, Orange Islands and Kanto.



I disagree. Manga is not canon. Also Ash in SM is the same Ash as past seasons.

If that manga was not canon, then what was the point of even making it (especially when it was specifically created as a lead-in to the movie, to promote it?). No, it is most likely canon to the anime and the movie, (otherwise, even in terms of money making, even making it in the first place is completely pointless), and thus it actually IS hinting at SM being a parallel universe.

Also, Mirror universe = alternate universe. If it's not the exact same universe as your own, it is, by definition, an alternate universe, whether mirror or some other name.
 

Alexander18

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What about the new Movie... where stuff that never happened. that's called a retcon sir... new continuity...

Where did Delia (ash's Mom) originate exactly... oh wait the original series... So who's to say that this Delia isn't like her son an alternate version? Argument invalid XD

An XY character has to return and remember Ash... why? If an older character like Misty or May comes back... then that would still put into question the continuity of series.

Here :
If a gen 1 character comes back and no one else - That would mean that gen's 2-6 characters never existed in the universe.

If a gen 5 character comes back and no one else - That would mean gen 1-5 characters are part of the new universe but that would put into question characters from gen 6.

UNTI A GEN 6 CHARACTER REMEBERS ASH THERE IS NO EVIDENCE!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cphNpqKpKc4

-side note-

This is fun XD
That makes no sense. The movie is not canon to the show. We don't need evidence that SM anime is in the same universe.

SM is in the same universe as the previous. There is nothing to prove otherwise. Ash's mom is the from the original series. There is no denying this. Alternate universe do not exist in pokemon tv show.

If that manga was not canon, then what was the point of even making it (especially when it was specifically created as a lead-in to the movie, to promote it?). No, it is most likely canon to the anime and the movie, (otherwise, even in terms of money making, even making it in the first place is completely pointless), and thus it actually IS hinting at SM being a parallel universe.

Also, Mirror universe = alternate universe. If it's not the exact same universe as your own, it is, by definition, an alternate universe, whether mirror or some other name.

No. Manga is not canon and neither is the movies. There is no hint of SM being in a alternate universe. Mirror world is not another universe. It is merely a reflection of the real world.
 
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That makes no sense. The movie is not canon to the show. We don't need evidence that SM anime is in the same universe.

SM is in the same universe as the previous. There is nothing to prove otherwise. Ash's mom is the from the original series. There is no denying this. Alternate universe do not exist in pokemon tv show.



No. Manga is not canon and neither is the movies. There is no hint of SM being in a alternate universe. Mirror world is not another universe. It is merely a reflection of the real world.

Maybe in most other anime like Dragon Ball Z, movies aren't canon to the anime, but the Pok?mon Anime is different as they generally ARE considered canon unless stated otherwise. Case in point, the events of Movie 2 were explicitly referenced in the Whirl Islands Arc where Ash and James both recognized a Lugia and explicitly mentioned that had previously encountered one during the Orange Islands, which even Dogasu verified as occurring in the Japanese version. And let's not forget the first movie, which was even given a few nods before it aired in the main anime (and actually given a prologue calling back to those events in the anime, which to be fair was mostly the fault of Porygon but still), or how Drew's Hometown is the exact same location as the one as Movie 7, or how Movie 10 had Dawn getting a Lunar Wing in the movie which later reappeared in Sleepless in Pre-Battle (and by extension, Movies 11 and 12 are canon due to those two being directly tied to Movie 10). In fact, if the characters make any indication of having encountered a Legendary before that was only in the movies especially if they have no indication of ever having encountered them in the anime before, chances are the films are canon.

To sum all of that up and get straight to the point of the topic, unless we get direct indication that this movie is not meant to be canon to the anime, whether SM or the whole anime, we have to assume that SM is indeed tied to M20, and thus that if M20 is an alternate universe, then SM is one by proxy. Remember, the Pok?mon Anime is not like other anime, it doesn't rely on the manga and thus doesn't have to worry about overtaking it (hence, technically, Pok?mon has no filler episodes unlike with, say, the Dragon Ball anime, where filler's a necessary evil to avoid overtaking the anime, with the exception of Super where roles are reversed), and as noted with the examples above, the movies if anything actually ARE canon to the anime, and since they are canon, that means if Movie 20 is a parallel universe, that automatically makes SM a parallel universe by proxy. And again, that promo manga, which as you know, was made specifically to tie in SM to the movie, and thus is required to be canon to even work, strongly suggests that M20 does indeed occur within SM, and thus means SM is most likely a parallel universe. Heck, technically, it's not even the first time the Pok?mon franchise has hinted at parallel universes, as the Delta Episode hinted that ORAS and XY took place in a parallel universe from Generations I-V, so don't think for a second that the anime hasn't done something similar with SM and especially M20. And for the record, since there's little indication that the Delta Episode happened in the anime timeframe, we can't say the anime adhered to alternate universes prior to SM/M20, meaning XY most likely is still part of the prior anime.

So far as the mirror universe, again, the definition of an alternate universe is a universe that is not the same as your universe. A mirror universe is not the same as your universe, just being side by side, with it and no actual interactions unless you get warped there by accident. In other words, going by the definition that it's not the same as your universe, it's by definition an alternate universe, no ifs, ands, or buts.
 

CidHazard

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Well articulated Weedle :D

Really there's no other way to dispute this... Unless someone returns from XY this show is suspect of being an alternate universe. If so then this theory really has no legs to stand on.
 
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Well articulated Weedle :D

Really there's no other way to dispute this... Unless someone returns from XY this show is suspect of being an alternate universe. If so then this theory really has no legs to stand on.

Yeah, and even there, considering the mess that's M20 (even if we go by the split-second cameo for Gary in the main film and Misty and Brock appearing in the credits, it doesn't change the fact that they were utterly replaced in the film proper in terms of roles), we'd also need appearances from Misty, Brock, and Gary in SM, as well as making it very explicit to the audience that they knew Ash and were former friends (and in the case of Gary, rival) of his, even note Misty's role in Ash even surviving his first day to prove that SM, and to some extent possibly XY, is also not a parallel universe to the overall anime. I wish it were as simple as just having XY cameos in SM, but it unfortunately is not that simple, not after M20 needlessly complicated things by changing too much from EP001 and the original Kanto saga.
 

CidHazard

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Yeah, and even there, considering the mess that's M20 (even if we go by the split-second cameo for Gary in the main film and Misty and Brock appearing in the credits, it doesn't change the fact that they were utterly replaced in the film proper in terms of roles), we'd also need appearances from Misty, Brock, and Gary in SM, as well as making it very explicit to the audience that they knew Ash and were former friends (and in the case of Gary, rival) of his, even note Misty's role in Ash even surviving his first day to prove that SM, and to some extent possibly XY, is also not a parallel universe to the overall anime. I wish it were as simple as just having XY cameos in SM, but it unfortunately is not that simple, not after M20 needlessly complicated things by changing too much from EP001 and the original Kanto saga.

It's not really that complicated... retcons happen in comics all the time, but rarely do they impact the current/recent relationship of a character.

So having XY cameos would just link the SM series to the rest of the saga's. (Every single series has had a character return so they where all connected universe wise) Pikachu and Satoshi would just have a brand new origin story. that would also throw a wrench in the alternate universe theory...
 

Unown Seer

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The movie's credits basically put all the past companions into the same basket, but the SM ones are consipcuously missing.

I think it's safe to assume that XY is part of the same continuity as the others, but the jury is still out on SM. And it doesn't seem that the writers are interested in any references to the past anymore (silly easter eggs nonwithstanding), so chances are that we'll never know for sure because they just don't care.
 
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