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Top Pokemon series/region

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I actually think that Ash should have ended in Kanto and be replaced by Gold/Ethans anime counterpart in Johto.

Ash story should have ended in Johto because that's were the anime still had life left in it. There wasn't any good reason for him to go to Hoenn/Sinnoh/Unova/Kalos, and Alola regions. To be honest The Original series might not have been perfect, but atleast he did developed and mature in both Kanto and Johto regions, they should have stop the show after Johto, because the later regions are all resets and there is no way he will ever improve because he got to start all over again, plus AG/DP ruin his character to the point that it seems like he never ages or even developed.
 
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Alexander18

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Yeah, sorry, I don't buy that. If they were that concerned with his winning meaning the show is over, they wouldn't have had him win the Orange Islands or, heck, even the Battle Frontier. I know if I were the writers and I was that afraid of him winning a league, I'd STILL have him lose Orange Islands and the Battle Frontier.
I didn't ask you to reply to me with all due respect. Orange Island is not considered a big league like the others. BF also doesn't count as it not a league.
 
895
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9
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  • Age 33
  • Seen Apr 22, 2018
I actually think that Ash should have ended in Kanto and be replaced by Gold/Ethans anime counterpart in Johto.

The problem with doing that is the fact that the show planned from the beginning for Ash to continue on into Johto. (The fact that Ho-Oh appeared in the first episode was a pretty big clue.) That's why his performance in the League at the end of Kanto was so poor. The idea was for him to go hone his skills in Johto and then return to the Indigo Plateau as a stronger trainer and become Champion. His big finale would've also likely involved finally meeting Ho-Oh.

Though, it is unfortunate that doing things this way still screws Jimmy out of ever starring in his own series. I would've tried to incorporate him into the Johto arc as a younger rival for Ash to mentor.

Ash story should have ended in Johto because that's were the anime still had life left in it. There wasn't any good reason for him to go Hoenn/Sinnoh/Unova/Kalos, and Alola regions. To be honest The Original series might not have been perfect, but atleast he did developed and mature in both Kanto and Johto regions, they should have stop the show after Johto, because the later regions are all resets and there is no way he will ever improve because he got to start all over again, plus AG/DP ruin his character to the point that it seems like he never ages or even developed.

Exactly. GSC were direct sequels to RBY, so Ash's story continuing into Johto was justified. But, RSE hit the reset button and broke ties with the RBY/GSC continuity, so Ash really had no business going to Hoenn or any of the other later regions. They only reason he did was because the show didn't have the guts to replace him and his yellow rat after the backlash Tracey had gotten back in Orange.

(Of course, they had no problem unceremoniously dumping Misty without closure, but that's another discussion for another time.)

Many have forgotten, but Ash was originally meant to be the anime counterpart of Red, and Kanto/Johto are the only regions Red has any relevance to. The only reason Ash turned into this eternal 10 year old who never develops and always loses every League is because he was turned into a generic stand-in for the current gen's male PC. He is no longer his own character, but instead a featureless mascot and marketing tool.
 
215
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6
Years
  • Age 35
  • Seen Mar 14, 2019
The problem with doing that is the fact that the show planned from the beginning for Ash to continue on into Johto. (The fact that Ho-Oh appeared in the first episode was a pretty big clue.) That's why his performance in the League at the end of Kanto was so poor. The idea was for him to go hone his skills in Johto and then return to the Indigo Plateau as a stronger trainer and become Champion. His big finale would've also likely involved finally meeting Ho-Oh.

Though, it is unfortunate that doing things this way still screws Jimmy out of ever starring in his own series. I would've tried to incorporate him into the Johto arc as a younger rival for Ash to mentor.


Exactly. GSC were direct sequels to RBY, so Ash's story continuing into Johto was justified. But, RSE hit the reset button and broke ties with the RBY/GSC continuity, so Ash really had no business going to Hoenn or any of the other later regions. They only reason he did was because the show didn't have the guts to replace him and his yellow rat after the backlash Tracey had gotten back in Orange.

(Of course, they had no problem unceremoniously dumping Misty without closure, but that's another discussion for another time.)

Many have forgotten, but Ash was originally meant to be the anime counterpart of Red, and Kanto/Johto are the only regions Red has any relevance to. The only reason Ash turned into this eternal 10 year old who never develops and always loses every League is because he was turned into a generic stand-in for the current gen's male PC. He is no longer his own character, but instead a featureless mascot and marketing tool.


Everything you said is true. I really think they could have done a lot more with Ash's character, because in the OS his character was starting to developed perfectly well until AG started to downgrade him into a poorly new rookie with no way to ever developed the right way, because he have to reset every new Generation region that he goes to.
 

CodeHelmet

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So NHK released a list of the top 100 Anime series of all time(which you can view here). It goes out to top 400 by the way and there were some surprises on it. For starters the original Pokemon series that includes Kanto, Orange Islands and Johto placed at #85. Considering this list encompasses everything Japanese Anime, that is a solid placement(even though I placed it last in my list. I never said it was god awful, I just thought other series were slightly better and again its my opinion).

What will trigger you is what is at #53. Its not another Pokemon series. In fact, Advanced Generation, Diamond and Pearl and Best Wishes didn't even make the top 400. XYZ was 209 and XY at 348. What's at #53 you ask? Pokemon Movie #11 or Giratina and the Sky Warrior. If that doesn't scream WTF?! x 9000 I don't know what will. I mean Darkrai movie was better than that but seriously the Giratina movie at #53?! Clearly, the Japanese have a screw loose.
 
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43
Posts
6
Years
7) Advanced - I just found May and Max really, REALLY annoying.
6) SM - It's too much for kids now. Not awful, though.
5) XY - A lot of the stuff was pretty cool, but Clemont and Bonnie were pretty boring, and Serena got on my nerves. Overall the story was pretty dull and Ash was highly annoying.
4) Johto - Not quite as good as Kanto, but still amazing.
3) Kanto/Orange - Misty, Brock, Tracey and Gary for the win.
2) DP - I loved Paul and Barry. Barry wasn't so friendly it didn't feel like any kind of rivalry at all , and Paul really pushed Ash to the limit. For some reason I really liked Dawn. Brock still ruled. Ash wasn't too stupid. And the Darkrai movie was AMAZING.
1) Best Wishes - I know, I know, everyone hates Gen 5. But I actually like Iris and don't find it annoying when she calls Ash a kid. Since Misty, all the girls have been ridiculously sexist, all apart from Iris. I though she was pretty cool. Team Plasma were probably my favourite evil team out of all the evil teams. The story, the animation, and even the theme tune (WHY DO I LOVE IT SO MUCH?!) were all great. But I'm probably the only one with that opinion.
 

Alexander18

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6
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7) Advanced - I just found May and Max really, REALLY annoying.
6) SM - It's too much for kids now. Not awful, though.
5) XY - A lot of the stuff was pretty cool, but Clemont and Bonnie were pretty boring, and Serena got on my nerves. Overall the story was pretty dull and Ash was highly annoying.
4) Johto - Not quite as good as Kanto, but still amazing.
3) Kanto/Orange - Misty, Brock, Tracey and Gary for the win.
2) DP - I loved Paul and Barry. Barry wasn't so friendly it didn't feel like any kind of rivalry at all , and Paul really pushed Ash to the limit. For some reason I really liked Dawn. Brock still ruled. Ash wasn't too stupid. And the Darkrai movie was AMAZING.
1) Best Wishes - I know, I know, everyone hates Gen 5. But I actually like Iris and don't find it annoying when she calls Ash a kid. Since Misty, all the girls have been ridiculously sexist, all apart from Iris. I though she was pretty cool. Team Plasma were probably my favourite evil team out of all the evil teams. The story, the animation, and even the theme tune (WHY DO I LOVE IT SO MUCH?!) were all great. But I'm probably the only one with that opinion.
Not sure what you are talking about. Misty, May and Dawn were not sexist in any way. Not sure why you came up with that conclusion.

As for annoying companions, for me it was Iris, Serena and Lillie. Don't know why female companions have gone down hill lately. It is very sad.
 
215
Posts
6
Years
  • Age 35
  • Seen Mar 14, 2019
7) Advanced - I just found May and Max really, REALLY annoying.
6) SM - It's too much for kids now. Not awful, though.
5) XY - A lot of the stuff was pretty cool, but Clemont and Bonnie were pretty boring, and Serena got on my nerves. Overall the story was pretty dull and Ash was highly annoying.
4) Johto - Not quite as good as Kanto, but still amazing.
3) Kanto/Orange - Misty, Brock, Tracey and Gary for the win.
2) DP - I loved Paul and Barry. Barry wasn't so friendly it didn't feel like any kind of rivalry at all , and Paul really pushed Ash to the limit. For some reason I really liked Dawn. Brock still ruled. Ash wasn't too stupid. And the Darkrai movie was AMAZING.
1) Best Wishes - I know, I know, everyone hates Gen 5. But I actually like Iris and don't find it annoying when she calls Ash a kid. Since Misty, all the girls have been ridiculously sexist, all apart from Iris. I though she was pretty cool. Team Plasma were probably my favourite evil team out of all the evil teams. The story, the animation, and even the theme tune (WHY DO I LOVE IT SO MUCH?!) were all great. But I'm probably the only one with that opinion.

To be truthful Best Wishes didn't make the anime go downhill, Iris was a great character, Cilan wasn't to bad, the rivals were really great, people are just being ignorant and hating on the 5 Gen for no good reason. Advance and Diamond and Pearl is were the anime started to decline. XY anime could have been handled much better.

Advance suck. Because May and Max were uninteresting annoying boring characters.

Diamond and Pearl wasn't anybetter. Dawn didn't have much of a personality and the writer's didn't make things anybetter when they try to make her out of a Ash clone, also the rivals suck in this series and Paul was an awful character.

Kanto/Orange/Johto were really a great part of the anime. Ash/Misty/Brock/Gary/Tracey were all well done interesting characters, the Kanto/Orange/Johto teams were fairly decent.
 
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895
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9
Years
  • Age 33
  • Seen Apr 22, 2018
Not sure what you are talking about. Misty, May and Dawn were not sexist in any way. Not sure why you came up with that conclusion.

Eeveetree9 is probably referring to the fact that May and Dawn were used heavily for fanservice (Masamitsu Hidaka even admitted it in a 2008 interview with Pok?Beach) and were given goals that downplayed battling in favor of beauty and fashion. With Serena, they took the May/Dawn template and cranked it up to 11, giving her a goal that didn't involve battling at all and had much of her storyline revolve around a crush on Ash.

There's nothing wrong with being girly, but there *is* something wrong with female protagonists constantly being portrayed as beauty queen waifus and being treated as fanservice. Girls don't need to be tomboys to be smart or strong battlers, and they *definitely* sure don't need to have busty hourglass figures or be wearing skirts that barely cover their assets. (Seriously, aren't these girls supposed to be 10? Ew!)
 

Alexander18

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To be truthful Best Wishes didn't make the anime go downhill, Iris was a great character, Cilan wasn't to bad, the rivals were really great, people are just being ignorant and hating on the 5 Gen for no good reason. Advance and Diamond and Pearl is were the anime started to decline. XY anime could have been handled much better.

Advance suck. Because May and Max were uninteresting annoying boring characters.

Diamond and Pearl wasn't anybetter. Dawn didn't have much of a personality and the writer's didn't make things anybetter when they try to make her out of a Ash clone, also the rivals suck in this series and Paul was an awful character.

Kanto/Orange/Johto were really a great part of the anime. Ash/Misty/Brock/Gary/Tracey were all well done interesting characters, the Kanto/Orange/Johto teams were fairly decent.
Have to disagree with you. Unova was mess. Ash caught too many pokemon. Iris was the first terrible female companion in the show with that annoying catch phrase being said throughout the whole saga.

The anime series was the best with Kanto, Orange Islands, Johto, Hoenn, Battle Frontier and Sinnoh saga. But Unova, Kalos and now Alola ended up a joke. Iris, Serena and Lillie were the main reason i disliked the sagas in Unova, Kalos and Alola.

My opinion though. Agree to disagree.
 
2,688
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18
Years
  • Seen Aug 29, 2020
7) Advanced - I just found May and Max really, REALLY annoying.
6) SM - It's too much for kids now. Not awful, though.
5) XY - A lot of the stuff was pretty cool, but Clemont and Bonnie were pretty boring, and Serena got on my nerves. Overall the story was pretty dull and Ash was highly annoying.
4) Johto - Not quite as good as Kanto, but still amazing.
3) Kanto/Orange - Misty, Brock, Tracey and Gary for the win.
2) DP - I loved Paul and Barry. Barry wasn't so friendly it didn't feel like any kind of rivalry at all , and Paul really pushed Ash to the limit. For some reason I really liked Dawn. Brock still ruled. Ash wasn't too stupid. And the Darkrai movie was AMAZING.
1) Best Wishes - I know, I know, everyone hates Gen 5. But I actually like Iris and don't find it annoying when she calls Ash a kid. Since Misty, all the girls have been ridiculously sexist, all apart from Iris. I though she was pretty cool. Team Plasma were probably my favourite evil team out of all the evil teams. The story, the animation, and even the theme tune (WHY DO I LOVE IT SO MUCH?!) were all great. But I'm probably the only one with that opinion.

Can't say I agree regarding DP or Dawn. Tried to like her, but I just couldn't. So far as Johto, it improved on various areas compared to Kanto, and overall it was good, even if it did take a very long time to do things, at least the payoff, Misty getting booted aside, was well worth the wait unlike with other sagas after it where they either have Ash not improving at all/doing worse than before (AG and BW), doing better yet having victory stolen from him (DP and XY), or flat out not pursuing his goal at all (SM).

I do agree regarding Iris, though. From what I gather of her character, she's probably a LOT more tolerable than May and Dawn ever were, and at least she doesn't look like jailbait unlike May, Dawn, and Serena. Sure, maybe her calling Ash a "kid" was annoying, but on the other hand, considering how grossly mishandled Ash was during that saga, I can forgive her repeatedly denouncing him as a child, since you wouldn't even know he did well in prior leagues the way he was handled.

To be truthful Best Wishes didn't make the anime go downhill, Iris was a great character, Cilan wasn't to bad, the rivals were really great, people are just being ignorant and hating on the 5 Gen for no good reason. Advance and Diamond and Pearl is were the anime started to decline. XY anime could have been handled much better.

Advance suck. Because May and Max were uninteresting annoying boring characters.

Diamond and Pearl wasn't anybetter. Dawn didn't have much of a personality and the writer's didn't make things anybetter when they try to make her out of a Ash clone, also the rivals suck in this series and Paul was an awful character.

Kanto/Orange/Johto were really a great part of the anime. Ash/Misty/Brock/Gary/Tracey were all well done interesting characters, the Kanto/Orange/Johto teams were fairly decent.

Well, the one good thing about DP is that at least Ash managed to actually do better than before, even with a stolen victory from him. I wasn't really fond of Paul that much (quite frankly, I was annoyed by how his Ursaring managed to trounce Pikachu, who BTW was the same Pikachu that completely obliterated Brandon's Regice, you know, the same one that knocked Paul on his butt earlier. Ursaring was caught during this region as well, which made it even worse. If Pikachu at least lost to Torterra, while I still wouldn't have liked it, I'd at least tolerate it because among Paul's party, it was the closest in experience level to Pikachu due to being his starter.).

And yeah, I agree with you, I wasn't fond of May or Dawn for a variety of reasons. One of which is that they both really gave me a very painful reminder of Love Hina as well as the girls who trampled over Ash, Brock, and James in Princess vs. Princess (and while Misty's departure certainly didn't help in my dislike of them, I still would have held contempt for them even if Misty never left). And Movie 9 actually made May out to be even WORSE considering that when Phantom outright abducted Manaphy, she just stood there like some coward rather than make ANY attempt at saving what was essentially HER CHILD, and that was supposed to be HER movie (and thanks to that, Ash had to save the day yet again, in a movie that was billed as her movie. Misty did far more in Power of One than May did in the Manaphy movie.). Even Misty regarding Togepi always went out of her way to try and help or save her child when it was in danger, not to mention any Pok?mon who did nearly end up in danger such as Marrill or Oddish. And I hate May slightly more than Dawn, largely because she started off outright hating Pok?mon, and thus literally had no real business being a Pok?mon trainer in the first place, leaves a lot of disrespect to the profession as a result. I'm sorry, perhaps I was a bit too harsh on her, but on the other hand, the entire point of being a Pok?mon Trainer is constantly having to interact with your Pok?mon and try to treat them well and win stuff for you, constantly bond with them, so if you're going to be a Pok?mon Trainer, whether Gym Battler or Coordinator doesn't matter, for a lifetime, you might as well like Pok?mon. Dawn at least didn't outright hate Pok?mon when she started her journey.

Eeveetree9 is probably referring to the fact that May and Dawn were used heavily for fanservice (Masamitsu Hidaka even admitted it in a 2008 interview with Pok?Beach) and were given goals that downplayed battling in favor of beauty and fashion. With Serena, they took the May/Dawn template and cranked it up to 11, giving her a goal that didn't involve battling at all and had much of her storyline revolve around a crush on Ash.

There's nothing wrong with being girly, but there *is* something wrong with female protagonists constantly being portrayed as beauty queen waifus and being treated as fanservice. Girls don't need to be tomboys to be smart or strong battlers, and they *definitely* sure don't need to have busty hourglass figures or be wearing skirts that barely cover their assets. (Seriously, aren't these girls supposed to be 10? Ew!)

Yeah, no kidding about that. That's actually another reason why I'm disgusted with how May, Dawn, and even Serena to some extent were depicted. If they want fanservice for the girls, fine, but they'd better make them sixteen years old if not eighteen years old. As bad as Love Hina was, and it was exceptionally bad in how the girls were depicted which was, pardon me for being blunt, but bimbos, and this was despite their pursing college, not to mention huge domestic abusers, at least they were of legal age for the most part, while those three were literally 10 year olds, not even in their teens yet, much less of the legal age. And there's plenty of room for girly girls and fighting. Just look at Honoka, Marie Rose, Kasumi, Hitomi, Leifang, Kokoro, and even to some extent Tina Armstrong from the Dead or Alive series. All those girls were very girly in various respects, and yet they're very skilled at fighting (and despite being reputed to be from a fanservice game, they're actually TAME compared to Pok?mon especially in pre-DOA5 games, which was deliberate regarding Itagaki since he wished to avoid depicting the girls in any lewd lights, viewing them as his own daughters.). At least Misty and Iris were not specifically designed for fanservice purposes. And quite frankly, Hidaka even admitting he only created the girls to be sex toys would have been grounds for him to be required to register as a sex offender. That he even got away with this is just... ugh. And speaking of Dead or Alive, it's because of how Pok?mon and Hidaka depicted May and Dawn that I have zero problem believing that Marie Rose is 18 years old just from the bio claiming this, because I know that if the Japanese truly wanted Marie Rose to be 10, they would do so, international standards be darned based on how they depicted May and Dawn.

Either way, Kanto/Orange Islands/Johto definitely are among the best sagas.
 
215
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6
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Have to disagree with you. Unova was mess. Ash caught too many pokemon. Iris was the first terrible female companion in the show with that annoying catch phrase being said throughout the whole saga.

The anime series was the best with Kanto, Orange Islands, Johto, Hoenn, Battle Frontier and Sinnoh saga. But Unova, Kalos and now Alola ended up a joke. Iris, Serena and Lillie were the main reason i disliked the sagas in Unova, Kalos and Alola.

My opinion though. Agree to disagree.

You have a right to your opinion.

The only problem with Unova was that they did overrush it too much, Iris was annoying sometimes but that's not enough for her to be hated, they did give Ash way too many Pokemon and i do agree with that.

For me. May was the worst female campanion to ever appear in the anime, because she was boring and didn't have a very good personality either, Dawn wasn't a great character either and her Piplup was ok at the start of the DP anime, but later on it became an annoying pain in the ass.

Kalos was okay but it wasn't as good as the OS, Ash's Kalos team being fully evolved was the only good thing that did came out of this series, the characters were boring and the animation wasn't all that good.

The anime was the best when we had just only the Kanto/Orange/Johto sagas to look farward to. The Hoenn/Frontier/Sinnoh sagas were never consider to be the best of the anime.
 
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Alexander18

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One thing i didn't like about Johto was that Ash's gen 2 pokemon were overtaken by his gen 1 pokemon. That is why he had no fully evolved johto starter.

Kanto's downside was when Ash released a lot of his fully evolved pokemon. Catch 30 tauros was pointless.

Hoenn was better. May was awesome no matter what others think. She is a decent character. Ash had a good team.

Sinnoh was even more good. Strong team and Dawn is fantastic no matter what others say. Ash ended up top 4.

After that, the show went downhill. Iris, serena and lillie are the worst three companions by a mile. Ash should have caught just five pokemon in unova. Ash should not have released Greninja and Goodra since he had a full team with no rotations. Alola is just a joke with the graduation and lillie character.
 
215
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One thing i didn't like about Johto was that Ash's gen 2 pokemon were overtaken by his gen 1 pokemon. That is why he had no fully evolved johto starter.

Kanto's downside was when Ash released a lot of his fully evolved pokemon. Catch 30 tauros was pointless.

Hoenn was better. May was awesome no matter what others think. She is a decent character. Ash had a good team.

Sinnoh was even more good. Strong team and Dawn is fantastic no matter what others say. Ash ended up top 4.

After that, the show went downhill. Iris, serena and lillie are the worst three companions by a mile. Ash should have caught just five pokemon in unova. Ash should not have released Greninja and Goodra since he had a full team with no rotations. Alola is just a joke with the graduation and lillie character.

Gen 2 was meant to be a sequel to Gen 1, also they already plan all of the teams for both Kanto and Johto, so he didn't need to have a fully evolve Johto starter. Ash's Johto team were fairly decent and had some good battling time, Ash's Kanto team were really good and were decent pokemon.

The show didn't really start to go downhill until both the AG/DP series started. May/Max and Dawn were the worst characters to ever appear in the anime.
 

Alexander18

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Gen 2 was meant to be a sequel to Gen 1, also they already plan all of the teams for both Kanto and Johto, so he didn't need to have a fully evolve Johto starter. Ash's Johto team were fairly decent and had some good battling time, Ash's Kanto team were really good and were decent pokemon.

The show didn't really start to go downhill until both the AG/DP series started. May/Max and Dawn were the worst characters to ever appear in the anime.
Wrong. There is no excuse for his gen 1 pokemon to mess up his gen 2 pokemon. And no, may and dawn were one of the best companions. The show started going down hill with unova. This is fact.

If you are gonna reply like that to me then don't reply at all. I know which companion and series is bad.
 
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Wrong. There is no excuse for his gen 1 pokemon to mess up his gen 2 pokemon. And no, may and dawn were one of the best companions. The show started going down hill with unova. This is fact.

If you are gonna reply like that to me then don't reply at all. I know which companion and series is bad.

I have to disagree. The Kanto team didn't mess up the The Johto team. Ash went to Johto with the Kanto team and besides they didn't stay very long anyways, plus Johto was meant to be a sequel to Kanto, which is the reason why we seen so many Kanto pokemon in Johto.

In my opinion. AG/DP is were the anime started to go downhill, plus May and Dawn were terrible female companions and that's the truth.

You have a right to your own opinion.
 
1,278
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Please, both of you stop it, everyone is allowed to have their own opinion. Some people like May, some people like Serena. This doesn't mean that they're wrong or right.
 
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I don't understand the debate with Ash's Johto team, especially considering the anime was originally intended to end at the Indigo League.
 
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I don't understand the debate with Ash's Johto team, especially considering the anime was originally intended to end at the Indigo League.

Eh, I don't know about that. They DID tease Ho-Oh in the very first episode, so at the very least, we probably had one more region for Ash to go for even after he does Kanto even if he won. I don't think they'd show a Pokémon that was blatantly not among the original 151 if they didn't intend to have him ultimately interact with it.

The show was definitely probably originally intended to end at Johto, though.

And personally, I thought that Ash's Johto team was decently handled. Sure, they may not have been Ash's Kanto starters, but at least they got the job done, and at least they weren't grossly OP unlike Ash's Hoenn team.
 

CodeHelmet

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What I'm about to say is a bit off-topic and I may be out of place saying it but concerns the atmosphere this thread has taken since I last posted. To spare you from my personal beliefs, I'll post it a spoiler before moving back to the topic at hand.

Spoiler:


Anyways, to get topic on point, anyone have anything to say about the NHK list I linked? The Original series(Kanto/Orange Islands/Johto) placed at #85. Considering Japanese voters considered everything Anime, that's a pretty good placement. Every other Pokemon series didn't make the top 100, although XY and XYZ did manage to make an honorable mention by getting into the top 400. All other Pokemon series failed to do so while two Pokemon movies did get a placement. The first Pokemon Movie got an honorable mention at 324 while the Giratina movie(and I'm still salty over this) got placed at #53 with Male voters placing it as high as #39! Not only did this movie beat the Original series(which is a cardinal sin in my book) but the mere fact Diamond and Pearl didn't even make it is what makes this placement even more appalling.
 
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