The Staff Feedback Thread

Lunaris Adamantine said:

I'll provide you with a few examples, and a quick description of why these reactions are immature and unprofessional.

First off, there was some moderator misconduct in the homosexuality thread a while back. I even reported the mods, but heard not a word regarding it.

Example 1 - Here, Livewire is just flat out being a jerk. Not only that, but he is publicly threatening a member with infractions. Whether the person was a troll or not, you should only give people warnings in private, unless it's a general warning meant for everyone. He does the same thing again shortly after. Acting like Livewire did is the exact opposite of how a mod should be.

Example 2 - While it's not as rude as Livewire, this post is still demeaning to other members. It was basically stating, in a roundabout way, that those fighting fire with fire were stupid. Not only that, but this post has literally nothing to do with the topic. Off topic posts should be removed, and that's just a fact that I'm sure we can all agree on. If you want to educate members on proper etiquette, do it in a PM, or elsewhere that isn't in a thread unrelated to member education.

Example 3 - Speaking of off topic posts, another one that I reported for that reason was ignored. Not only that, but it's just unnecessary snarkiness just because he's not able to to handle negative feedback. This is the only post I will show an example of in the April fool's day thread. The entire thread itself is an example of the staff not responding appropriately to negative feedback.

Example 4 - This isn't a mod's post, but it explains what happened pretty well. Klippy had deleted this guys post, which was exactly the same as the admin above him, saying it was unnecessary. To be honest, I think a more appropriate response would have been to delete Ausaudriel's post, since both of them really were unnecessary. That is what the like button is for, after all.

Example 5 - The point of this thread is just to have fun showing how you would arrange the forum. It's not really a good idea to be so abrasive just because you don't agree with someone else's ideas. You should think before you type, or, as Arylett posted in response to Universe, you might come across as being rude.

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I'm going to be respectful of your right to disagree here but I'm also going to be quite frank seeing as you directed this at me.

A) With regards to reports, we review them and handle them internally, and we don't consult with the person reporting (unless they're a mod reporting in another section) because reports are handled by staff and staff alone, nobody else, no exceptions. That also means we don't tell somebody if/when their report is handled, it's really not their business at that point, it's between the user who's post was reported and the staff.

1) I was dealing with an obvious troll, and frankly I'm not going to treat them like I would say, a regular user, because they aren't that, hence the being a troll bit. That being said, it wasn't exactly obvious at first, but it became obvious later in the thread, and the course of action taken should have been rather self-explanatory at that point? And no, I can and will give warnings in a thread, in public to either stay on topic, to tell a user to stop doing bad thing A, B, or C because as a Super Moderator and former moderator of this section that I designed, I have the authority to do so, along with the rest of Staff & H-Staff, and i'm sorry if you don't like that, but that's the truth of the matter. And given that this was already a contentious topic in the RT, the possibility of the thread being derailed is high so keeping on on the straight and narrow and on-topic is a top priority there, which a regular poster in the section would understand. I think you're looking at things on PC through a very rigid, black & white sense and by doing so you miss the larger point to things here.

2) Nah is the Moderator of The Round Table like I was, and also wields the amazing ability to moderate his section as he sees fit, including but not limited to, telling members to stay on topic because like me, it's part of the job being a moderator. Nah's post doesn't apply to off-topic posting, because he's not physically debating or talking about the topic at hand, he's enforcing the rules, which he's supposed to do, in the thread and otherwise. And it was well done, in my opinion.

3) He's questioning why the people raising such a huge issue with the prank have never posted any feedback before when we wanted or asked for it, and that's a valid point. I didn't see anybody who objected to the April Fool's prank so strongly post anything in Feedback before it was convenient for them to do so.

4) You'll notice that the post in question isn't deleted.

5) Considering Universe is the moderator of The Treehouse and Arlett Charnoa made some poor and rather generalized comments on the forum's content and direction, and by extension how its run, I can see why it was taken personally because the initial comments themselves, directed towards The Treehouse, were, you know, rude.


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Moving on, as for April Fool's, I feel like the initial response to the prank from a vocal minority of users was little more than a temper tantrum, where people freaked out over the inaccessibility of the forum skin, which was the entire point as it was supposed to be a throwback to the good 'ol days online in the early 2000's. Considering Audy coded and designed the entire thing with a busy schedule and other PC things to address, the overzealous response from some users to the prank was rude and unfounded. I can't stress this enough - we welcome insightful feedback and constructive criticism, we really do. The being said, not all feedback or cc is valid, and it's one thing to constructively offer a critique, where it's been laid out in a thoughtful matter, and it's entirely another matter to loudly complain because you're inconvenienced on a Pokemon Forum on April Fool's Day, and I felt the responses to the prank leaned closer to the latter rather than the former. C'mon people, it's just for a day and plenty of other people didn't seem to mind. We also do this every year, and we've done some crazy stuff in the past and even the craziest prank from yesteryear didn't generate such a big uproar from a few people. If anything, it should make you all appreciative of people like Audy, Razor Leaf, Abnegation, Peitiarchia, Hiroshi Sotomura, etc., who do a ton of complex, complicated vb coding and graphic design for this site, for free, so that collectively we all can enjoy a modern, streamlined and aesthetically pleasing website.

I mentioned feedback thing already, and I believe it was already touched on, but constructive feedback is more than just complaining about a feature you personally don't like - instead of "I hate this feature it sucks make it go away", try for "I think the AF prank could have uninhibited site functionality by doing a, b, c, differently" with a totally different tone and approach. Shouting at us in the feedback forum isn't going to make anyone want to listen to you nor will it get any of us anywhere, so if we approach it (feedback) more calmly and in a more tactful manner, we'll all be happy.

I'll just answer everyone all at the same time, since your arguments are basically the same thing.

Regarding my first example, you are all telling me that it's perfectly reasonable to lose your temper and insult members just because you think they are a troll. I think a more appropriate response would be to actually deal with the situation when someone reports it, like I did back when the problem was still small, rather than escalating it by responding. You're just completely wrong about this one, and that's just a fact. Troll or not, don't be a dick.

For number two, yeah, it is more convenient to tell people to calm down in a thread. But at this point, the situation was dealt with. A warning was unnecessary. In addition, she quoted two people and then said their actions are one of the stupidest ways they could have handled things. Rather than leaving a general announcement in the thread, she singled those two out and insulted them, even if it wasn't intentional. Like the first one, this is just a fact. Unless you really think it's okay to call members stupid, then you are being illogical.

For number three, you guys are taking things out of proportion. It's an off topic and pointless post, it needs to be deleted. That's all there is to it. You need to get passed your bias and realize that the staff should not be allowed to break the rules. This as well is a irrefutable fact. Also, just a side note on the April fool's joke, if someone wastes as much time as Ausaudriel did for the sake of annoying me, it will just make me dislike the situation even worse.

Number four is pretty much just directed at Livewire. You're right, the post was brought back by Ausaudriel. But the fact is it shouldn't have been deleted at all, unless Ausaudriel's post was deleted as well.

The last one is the only one that I feel is more ambiguous than the rest. I know it's not a post that is against the rules, but a moderator coming out of nowhere and screaming that your idea is bad doesn't bode well for you guys. Her post was rude, but not to a great extent. If it were a normal member, I would just brush it aside. But a mod acting like that has a bigger impact on members. When an authority figure speaks at you like that, it doesn't fill you with pleasant feelings. She could have easily expressed her opinion more politely, and even given an actual reason for her opinion than just saying no.

Livewire said:

5) Considering Universe is the moderator of The Treehouse and Arlett Charnoa made some poor and rather generalized comments on the forum's content and direction, and by extension how its run, I can see why it was taken personally because the initial comments themselves, directed towards The Treehouse, were, you know, rude.

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Arylett didn't say anything rude to anyone. And how can you be rude to a forum, anyways? That doesn't make sense. She just stated what she thought would make the forums better. Also, Universe's rudeness is not justified because you think Arylett was rude first. It doesn't work like that. Just like how you made the situation worse by doing the same to the homosexuality troll.


Basically, all of your responses are confirming what I have said. You are not open to feedback regarding how you handle things. Furthermore, you aren't going to change your ways no matter how wrong they might be. You don't know everything, and will never learn if you remain close-minded.

Lunaris Adamantine said:

Example 5 - The point of this thread is just to have fun showing how you would arrange the forum. It's not really a good idea to be so abrasive just because you don't agree with someone else's ideas. You should think before you type, or, as Arylett posted in response to Universe, you might come across as being rude.

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You have quite a few notifications already but I just want to add that I'm not sure what you want me to do. I gave an apology for coming across rudely, is there something else I should've done? There's no reason for me to contain my disapproval of this:

The Mall becomes General Discussion because honestly, in its current form, it is far too specific in my opinion to encourage much activity. This is where the Everything Else happens. Treehouse becomes wacky joke forum where people post gifs and about dinosaur butts.

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The implication is that everything Treehouse has ever been should be moved into a brand new forum, while Treehouse gets left to be the spam forum full of meaningless everything. Honestly she might as well have spat in my face because I had the same impression while reading that, but I still apologized anyway.

Edit:

Lunaris Adamantine said:

You don't know everything, and will never learn if you remain close-minded.

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Funny, aren't you the person who said asexuality isn't valid?

Lunaris Adamantine said:

You're just completely wrong about this one, and that's just a fact.

Like the first one, this is just a fact.

This as well is a irrefutable fact.

But the fact is it shouldn't have been deleted at all, unless Ausaudriel's post was deleted as well.

Basically, all of your responses are confirming what I have said. You are not open to feedback regarding how you handle things. Furthermore, you aren't going to change your ways no matter how wrong they might be. You don't know everything, and will never learn if you remain close-minded.

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None of those are facts. Those are your opinions. You can have them and it's perfectly flne, but they're not facts.

Universe said:

You have quite a few notifications already but I just want to add that I'm not sure what you want me to do. I gave an apology for coming across rudely, is there something else I should've done? There's no reason for me to contain my disapproval of this:

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I appreciate that you gave an apology, all I meant was that it shouldn't have happened in the first place. You need to realize that you have a position of power, and people will have stronger reactions to the things you say. In addition, if you act poorly it makes users think they can as well.

Universe said:

Funny, aren't you the person who said asexuality isn't valid?

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This comment of yours has nothing to do with the discussion, you're just trying to insult me because, well, I guess you don't have any other way to argue. I'll clarify that anyways.

I never said people without sexual desires aren't valid. I said that humans are by nature a sexual species. I basically meant that you shouldn't label yourself as asexual, because you don't create children simply by splitting yourself in half. I am far more open-minded than you probably think, just not to the point where I accept things without any evidence.

Lunaris Adamantine said:

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Hello, I'm the other moderator of the Round Table and honestly also the one who outright closed each and every one of those reports. If you or your friend have a problem with how I handled the situation please feel free to message me directly or, if you feel I am neglecting my duties, report me to higher staff because I'm pretty big on accountability.

I personally believe that Live acted within his rights. Ignoring the fact that debate posts tend to get heated anyway, he was also dealing with a member who was aggressively trying to force feed his own narrow scope of views down our throats, was probably outright trolling, creating an enormously negative atmosphere and in general being extremely offensive. You seem to be labouring under the illusion that we are required to be nice to people who are going out of their way to upset the community and we're not. I'm not going to send you flowers before I outright ban you. That user was acting inappropriately, breaking several rules and in general was making the rest of the community uncomfortable, they did not deserve courtesy. That's my thoughts on that matter.

Now, onto April Fools. As has been said, it was a joke and we did what we could to make sure those who did not enjoy it did not have to participate. Audy added in a way to opt out as soon as he was available. We all have real lives outside of PC (well not me right now lol). We have jobs and other commitments. He implemented the opt out as soon as he was able to so the minority of the userbase, because it truthfully was a minority, who were bothered by the joke still had the capability to enjoy PC. We are never going to be able to please everyone, but we do the best we can as soon as we can.

The feedback thread? I agree, on occasion staff can respond a bit too harshly to negative criticism. However a lot of what we got in that thread was not just negative critique, it was borderline or outright abusive and we should not have to tolerate that behaviour regardless of our positions. You have every right to make complaints and contrary to popular belief each and every one of us on staff take user feedback extremely seriously. That's why this forum and this thread exist. However, that does not give people a free pass to hurl abuse and vitriol at us. We are doing this for free. We are doing this because we love the community. We don't have to do what we do, we do not get paid and more often than not we don't get much appreciation either. So I can understand that some of us were a tad displeased when a bunch of users were outright mean over a harmless joke that we added an opt out for as soon as we were able.

Onto "the staff are a clique". If any user actually believes this, you obviously do not know the staff very well and have not made much of an effort too. Yes, the majority of staff are friends. We work very closely together and we get to know each other as a result which of course results in us being friendly towards each other for the most part. This is a good thing, we work a lot better as a cohesive group who communicate and enjoy working with one another than as a bunch of seperate people who don't talk to each other. This seems to give some people the impression that we're some sort of exclusive clique however and that is so far from the truth that it actually hurts a bit to see you accusing us of it. Ignoring the fact that most of us live for this community and how much it means to us (all of it, not just other staff or supporters or w/e) most of us interact actively with the community. For example, the vast majority of the people I talk to on PC are non-staff regulars from the Underground or Roleplay Theatre (both of these sections have active Skype groups and one a DCC if you ever want to jump in and get to know us). I also talk to a few others from all over the place. The same is true for most other staff. We're not a clique or a hivemind, if a bunch of staff all comment with the same opinion it isn't because we're acting as a legion against the members its because that group of staff members happen to have the same opinion. If you observed a little more, you'd notice we often disagree with one another too. Just take a look at the feedback for the Mall.

I think that's the majority of the points you've made I've covered. But the bottom line of it is mostly the same underlying issue. You expect us to act as the epitome of robotic corporate professionalism but that's not what we are. We aren't robots, we don't share the same brain and we are not a bunch of men and women in suits and ties sitting around a fancy mahogany desk either. We are people with university and school to worry about, we are people with jobs and family's and other commitments and quite frankly other hobbies too. We make no money and we get little praise for all we do. We are dedicated to this community and do the best we can for it because we love it. We aren't in it for perks, we aren't in it for anything other than a desire to do what we can to make as many people as happy as possible. We're just ordinary people and you expect too much of us. Nobody has the right to treat us like dirt and pretend "it's just feedback" and expect us to just take it like machines. Can we mess up or be too aggressive, shit yeah! It happens. If we go too far, other staff tend to tell us we have. Don't expect us to sit back idly whilst we are treated unfairly. We're trying, show us some respect because we try our best to do the same to you.

Ausaudriel said:

I'm sorry to anyone who was irritated by the april fools prank. I should have had the toggle for "turn off" ready to go from the beginning--I was working on a constrained time frame and wasn't fully ready but went ahead anyway. I (mistakenly) assumed people would understand that it was a pretty widely accepted holiday and that, traditionally, PC does something a little crazy to celebrate it. A lot of people do this. Big, multi-billion dollar companies do this. Friends do this. Family does this. It's a very, very commonly accepted thing in our culture. For these reasons I didn't prioritize a toggle to disable it. Again, I apologize to people who were genuinely inconvenienced and bothered by this prank.

That said, I realize the feedback given here is about more than just the prank. I do think a lot of it is unduly harsh, and that most of what's been said in here against the staff is either inaccurate or misconstrued. I only have my own personal opinion to go on, but the people I work with to help run PC tend to be some of the nicest, fairest people I've met on the Internet and for the most part do a really incredible job volunteering their time to help make PC a fun place to hang out. Mistakes happen, people get snappy and frustrated, sometimes we speak out of line. This is within the realm of acceptable for me. As a manager of PC and a selector of staff candidates, I would be much less likely to hire a "perfect" candidate than someone who I can see is actually human and has a personality of their own. I dunno. I haven't seen examples of people being out of line presented in the last few posts. Trust me, we've outright fired people (and banned people) for going beyond what we've established as standard deviation of acceptable behavior. Yes, we make that choice. We choose what acceptable behavior is. In some ways we're beholden to the users of this community, such as yourself, and are by no means ultimate authority. But one, or two, or twelve users telling us in a feedback thread that we've acted out of line is so, so, so few compared to our total number of active users that honestly? I don't consider it too strongly. While I appreciate your feedback and I think that there are always things we can do better, there's also a margin of "these are the minority who will be unhappy with us during our pursuit of making the majority happy."

We can't make everyone happy. It's impossible. With every choice we make--be it new features, removed forums, changed rules, pranks for april fools, whatever--we have intense criticism from people who aren't happy with what we've done. We do our best to find the right course of action to maximize member happiness while minimizing the number of people who will dislike that action. I think the fact that PC has grown so large and continues to expand into other areas is a testament to our having found an effective way of managing that balance. You wouldn't have any way of knowing this, but pretty much every choice we make takes literally weeks of discussion before being carried out. And yes, that includes april fools. We discuss things until we're blue in the face. We talk about it, share ideas and concerns, try to see it from multiple perspectives, and try to find the best course of action. Untold, countless, insane numbers of ideas never see the light of day because after weeks/months of discussion we decide it isn't best for PC. We aren't "close-minded", we're probably one of the most detail-oriented, careful, considerate, calculated management bodies of this style of internet forum you'll ever find. Seriously. There's an incredible amount of care and dedication going into running this place, every single day.

It's just a forum, blah blah blah. But we all choose to spend our time here to make it a fun place to hang out. We do that because we like you guys, we want you to have a good time, but we also do it because we love PC too. We've all spent years of our lives here helping to make it great, and I would personally vouch for each and every person on staff caring greatly for PC's member base. None of us are malicious, none of us are mean-spirited. Even april fools was a joke, meant to be funny and provide a good time to our members. It was supposed to be silly and nostalgic in honor of Pokemon's 20th anniversary, literally, "wouldn't it be fun if we turned the forums all retro and only talked about old school Pokemon?" Some of the responses were maybe snappy because it was a major buzzkill to work hard on a thing only to be told how much it sucks by a few people.

way, I dunno. Sorry for the trouble, truly. But using this as an excuse to try to illustrate non-existent close-mindedness/rudeness/whatever is kinda bull, and I won't buy it for a second. This feedback thread, and most that crop up in this forum, are full of overwhelmingly positive thoughts about the job we're doing here. While I do appreciate and think about all feedback presented here, part of that is understanding the difference between legitimate issues and a small vocal minority who are picking at straws trying to find issues with us to blow out of proportion and misrepresent in an attempt to win a fight that nobody really cares about. I may sound like a dick here, but bring me a greater percentage of users than %0.01 who can back you up on your opinions and maybe I'll start to consider there's a larger problem.

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Your apology about the April Fool's Day is noted. And appreciated. However... I would like you to consider this. This is the final post I will make in this thread. I will not respond to anyone else, and I will not return. I owe it to myself, and apparently to you, because it's obvious that you don't want to listen to what we are saying.

If you cannot even consider the possibility that you might be wrong on this, then you are close-minded. There isn't any getting around it. You are dismissing us as a minority, but how can you really know what everyone thinks? You're just stuck in an echo chamber. There may be people like us who are afraid to voice what they feel precisely because of the negative reactions I have seen here.

I apologize for being so blunt, but this has gotten out of hand.

Stop using the fact that you have "worked so hard" as an excuse. I appreciate the hard work you put into it, this is noted. But you are using that to dodge all criticism. Even if a minority is criticizing you, you should still listen. Legitimate criticism can come from anyone, even one person. Basically, what you are implying is that you consider us to be insignificant. We don't matter, you are dismissing everything. You mods are posting instantly, without any thought or consideration. You are going into attack mode, and being defensive. This IS fact, and it is not opinion. Even if you think it is justified, you are still behaving in that manner. And there isn't any way around it.

This has proven to me that we simply do not fit into this community. It was a good try, but I cannot be in a place where I am thought of as unimportant and insignificant because A: I'm not part of your clique. And B: I'm not getting enough people to agree with me. You even said yourself that "nobody cares about our fight." You don't want feedback, you only want confirmation. And you'll only act when the largest amount of people complain rather than dealing with a problem as soon as it should be dealt with. This is close-minded. But at the very least, this has benefitted me, even if it doesn't you.

Very well then. If I don't matter, then it's not worth staying here. Keep thinking whatever you're thinking, and doing whatever you'e doing. It's obvious that this isn't worth it and you're just confirming everything we have said. I can only hope that you learn one day how inappropriate your behavior is.

If I had a dollar every time I have seen someone complain about how mods are "rude" and "abuse their position of power" and give "bad examples" to users, I'd be Platinum supporter by now.

Like I can find posts from 2013 in which the same exact arguments were raised and the same explanations were offered.

This has proven to me that we simply do not fit into this community. It was a good try, but I cannot be in a place where I am thought of as unimportant and insignificant because A: I'm not part of your clique. And B: I'm not getting enough people to agree with me. You even said yourself that "nobody cares about our fight." You don't want feedback, you only want confirmation. And you'll only act when the largest amount of people complain rather than dealing with a problem as soon as it should be dealt with. This is close-minded. But at the very least, this has benefitted me, even if it doesn't you.

Very well then. If I don't matter, then it's not worth staying here. Keep thinking whatever you're thinking, and doing whatever you'e doing. It's obvious that this isn't worth it and you're just confirming everything we have said. I can only hope that you learn one day how inappropriate your behavior is.

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I think you haven't understood anything at all.

Arylett Charnoa said:

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You talk about it like this is the only discussion we have had about the April Fools issue. We're not dismissing your views, but we're not going to treat them like fact when they're not. Most people were not bothered by the various joke things we did for April Fools, several people have told us through various mediums that they thoroughly enjoyed it all.

You didn't like it, that's fine. We did what we could for people like you who didn't appreciate the joke as soon as we could. But please, stop presenting your personal feelings as fact because - as Omi already pointed out - that's all they are, your personal feelings. I don't mean to dismiss your thoughts, I don't like any of our members being displeased, but we can't please everybody and the majority will always outlay the minority. The majority enjoyed April Fools. We did what we could to also appease the minority (despite the unfair treatment we got from many of you). There's nothing more to it. We did what we could, if a few people weren't happy that's a shame but most people were fine with it all. The majority wins.

Ludger said:

If you're referring to me in dealing with the AFD backlash, I'm not actually being serious in that feedback thread. :/ Like I'm not really gonna go cry about it, you're not all "damn millennials" etc. But I will say, it is disappointing to have people hate my idea (going retro was my suggestion so I'll take responsibility for it, everyone aim your eggs at me). Not only that, but Audy took the time to pull up all that old coding and get other things situated, so it's a bummer for him that his work get a bunch of flack. But I was just trying to have fun with it, is all. Shrug. I'm sorry if you felt I was out of hand. Things have been fixed at this point though, so I don't know what else to say on that.

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I was meaning to further clarify this in the thread before it closed, and I really don't have a lot of say as I rarely frequent this place compared to you guys, but I honestly appreciated the effort put into what you guys did this year. :) I try to look at these things in a positive light, and I think it was a very charming idea. However, I was sort of afraid to voice that I believed it should have been at least optional (not disabled for everyone), because sadly as it is, it appeared to me a lot of people were starting to develop somewhat negative feelings for this place. I think I could have dealt if it were for the whole day, but the one thing I honestly didn't like was not being able to browse the non-Gen 1 game sections for the day. I wasn't really sure which other ones were hidden because the only ones I really notice are those, but I honestly think to most, that may be going to far, as it does seem to hinder the ability for some users to enjoy this place the way they wish to. But again, I'm just a rare passerby who's only been here since late last year, offering my own two cents. I really don't want to sound unappreciative of your efforts to give us a fun time; I really liked what you did for that.

In short— and I'm trying to be as middle-ground about this as I can— I just personally would at least have such a thing optional whenever it comes up again, and maybe keep the visible sections as is. I honestly find it understandable, but I'm sorry that not everyone appreciated your efforts.


Also, I realized some people in that thread brought up simply not using the forums for the day as an option if they didn't like the temporary change. Out of curiosity, and this doesn't have any correlation to my opinion of the AFD thing, but do you guys worry about that sort of scenario hurting the image, activity, and/or progress of the community? :(

JohnnyMustang said:

I will try to keep this short due to the massive amout of large messages:

April's fools: Regarding this, I think people should take the chill pill and let it go. Whether or not you liked this, it was not a big deal. Like Ausaudriel said, these things are accepted everywhere and if this is a friendly community it should not be any different here.

Even if I don't like Lunaris's tone, I think he made an interesting point regarding The Round Table moderation. I disagree with his concern about Livewire. I think he did well, but... I was infracted in that thread, because of this:



Which is pretty much the same thing that Livewire did and he came out as the hero.

The "insults" listed in my infraction were these quotes: "You consume" "You do not have thoughts of your own" and I'll give it context; I said this because he said that a thousands years old book (The Bible) was irrefutable. So yeah, I think that situation should not be ignored, because there's a conflict between how two moderators (Livewire and Nah) acted in the thread. I did said other things later in the debate, but after he said that we were all going to hell and according to a lot of you: You can't expect to treat this person like a regular user because he's not, which I agree, but I got an infraction for it and you didn.t

This discussion also creates a conflict regarding when to delete posts that tends to go off-topic, like when Universe deleted a post of mine in the lgtb thread.

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Personally, I wouldn't have warned/infracted for that. But that's irrelevant.

I'm just going to say that whilst this is indeed a place to give feedback for the staff, matters regarding things like warnings/infractions are probably best discussed privately with the member of staff who gave it out or with a member of h-staff.

JohnnyMustang said:

I did discussed that with Nah after the warning, but he only replied once. And I'm sharing this because Lunaris made me realize the conflict of moderation actions that were taken there.

I can live with that warning though, I'll survive. But now I'm not so sure that I was fairly warned and I would expect these things to be clear, without loopholes for the mods or the users to exploit.

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It's not really about exploiting loopholes or anything, remember we're all human beings with slightly differing ideas of exactly when a line is being toed/crossed. That's why you're encouraged to discuss problems with the relevant staff member/members.

JohnnyMustang said:

Yes, there are differences. But in this case, Livewire was a hero for doing the exact same thing I did whilst I was getting a warning. That makes things different.

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Well you already know my thoughts on that. All I can say is if you're still bothered by it continue to pursue the issue privately with Nah or h-staff.

Lunaris Adamantine said:

I'll provide you with a few examples, and a quick description of why these reactions are immature and unprofessional.

First off, there was some moderator misconduct in the homosexuality thread a while back. I even reported the mods, but heard not a word regarding it.

Example 1 - Here, Livewire is just flat out being a jerk. Not only that, but he is publicly threatening a member with infractions. Whether the person was a troll or not, you should only give people warnings in private, unless it's a general warning meant for everyone. He does the same thing again shortly after. Acting like Livewire did is the exact opposite of how a mod should be.

Example 2 - While it's not as rude as Livewire, this post is still demeaning to other members. It was basically stating, in a roundabout way, that those fighting fire with fire were stupid. Not only that, but this post has literally nothing to do with the topic. Off topic posts should be removed, and that's just a fact that I'm sure we can all agree on. If you want to educate members on proper etiquette, do it in a PM, or elsewhere that isn't in a thread unrelated to member education.

Example 3 - Speaking of off topic posts, another one that I reported for that reason was ignored. Not only that, but it's just unnecessary snarkiness just because he's not able to to handle negative feedback. This is the only post I will show an example of in the April fool's day thread. The entire thread itself is an example of the staff not responding appropriately to negative feedback.

Example 4 - This isn't a mod's post, but it explains what happened pretty well. Klippy had deleted this guys post, which was exactly the same as the admin above him, saying it was unnecessary. To be honest, I think a more appropriate response would have been to delete Ausaudriel's post, since both of them really were unnecessary. That is what the like button is for, after all.

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I disagree completely. There is a time when a staff needs to bring up that strict side of them, in fact, I think they (as in the whole forum staff) are not strict enough (in those situations/examples you have posted). I hope you are not mistaking the forum staff as some kind of kind, sweet, bubbly mall receptionists, as forum staff members are actually the authority of a forum. Them being very kind isn't part of their obligation, PC staff members are, in fact, too kind and too soft nowadays, in my opinion.

Don't mistake rudeness and reprimanding. In real life situations, you wouldn't expect a cop to be that sweet and kind to you if you have done something wrong. If PC really went down to that level, as in completely ditching that strict side, just to favor everyone? I'm quitting PokeCommunity for good.

Example 5 - The point of this thread is just to have fun showing how you would arrange the forum. It's not really a good idea to be so abrasive just because you don't agree with someone else's ideas. You should think before you type, or, as Arylett posted in response to Universe, you might come across as being rude.

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I don't think that is abrasive; that is an opinion. Although Universe could have had typed a wall of text to let people know his opinion completely, as in in details. Let's just say that I've seen real abrasive posts before.

Gonna respond to this since I asked for it, it's partly directed at me, and I have a slightly different view than most of the people who've responded to it so far:

Lunaris Adamantine said:

Example 1 - Here, Livewire is just flat out being a jerk. Not only that, but he is publicly threatening a member with infractions. Whether the person was a troll or not, you should only give people warnings in private, unless it's a general warning meant for everyone. He does the same thing again shortly after. Acting like Livewire did is the exact opposite of how a mod should be.

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I'll be honest and say that I wasn't exactly fond of how Live went about that post, especially after my other posts in that thread. But the man has essentially held up the entire section since its inception and I'd like to think that merits an occasional bit of leniency. I'm not sure what you would've wanted me to do to him anyway. If I deleted his post(s) he could just undelete them, and it's physically impossible for me to yellow card/infract someone of higher rank than me; the option to infract smods/admins/Steve is literally not there for me.

Example 2 - While it's not as rude as Livewire, this post is still demeaning to other members. It was basically stating, in a roundabout way, that those fighting fire with fire were stupid. Not only that, but this post has literally nothing to do with the topic. Off topic posts should be removed, and that's just a fact that I'm sure we can all agree on. If you want to educate members on proper etiquette, do it in a PM, or elsewhere that isn't in a thread unrelated to member education.

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These are very good:

Team Fail said:

That wasn't actually very roundabout. It was actually rather direct. However, Nah was mentioning that how they were talking to the troll was only escalating the attitudes in the thread and was wanting it to deescalate. She's also establishing that any kind of attitude like that in the thread is unwarranted and inappropriate.

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bobandbill said:

If you want to split hairs then yes, it is 'off topic', but frankly moderators should make such posts when required. I suppose you and I have different ideas on how to mod, but frankly I rarely see the opinion that a mod making public announcements like that is being off-topic when it is part of their role as moderator to do things like that.

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I will also add that while in that post I had quoted two members it was not aimed specifically/only at them. I used their posts more as a jumping point for a general announcement. I have done this before and have explicitly stated in my posts that that is what I do, but apparently people seem to gloss over that bit so I guess I should stop?

This part is sorta-kinda gonna start to stray a bit so spoiler tag.


Will just note as well that I was not and am not 100% sure I handled that thread perfectly, to the point where the day after I even made a thread in the staff section asking if I handled it ok or not. I do not think I did anything wrong, but that that perhaps I could've done better.

Example 3 - Speaking of off topic posts, another one that I reported for that reason was ignored. Not only that, but it's just unnecessary snarkiness just because he's not able to to handle negative feedback. This is the only post I will show an example of in the April fool's day thread. The entire thread itself is an example of the staff not responding appropriately to negative feedback.

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I would agree that his post is off-topic and does not refute any arguments. Is it so wrong of him though to make a simple observation in a thread full of bullshit (arguably from both sides)?

Example 4 - This isn't a mod's post, but it explains what happened pretty well. Klippy had deleted this guys post, which was exactly the same as the admin above him, saying it was unnecessary. To be honest, I think a more appropriate response would have been to delete Ausaudriel's post, since both of them really were unnecessary. That is what the like button is for, after all.

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I agree with you on this.

Arylett Charnoa said:

This is the final post I will make in this thread. I will not respond to anyone else, and I will not return.

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Please don't leave.




Anyway the problem we have with the AFD "feedback" is that a) half of it's not even feedback, it's just bitching and moaning, and b) the intensity is completely ridiculous. You'd think that the sky is falling or something. While I do think that it should've had its bugs worked out beforehand and should've had an easily accessible toggle from the moment it was put up, why was this something to get so completely furious about? We really are not opposed to legitimate feedback, but there is a difference between raging and constructive criticism. Only a few members did the latter.

'ayy, went off and read everyone's replies about the issue. It was interesting reading different people's points of views on the topics discussed. Personally addressing my post, I didn't intend to offend anyone or imply anyone was unfit for their positions. My main issue was the way in which my feedback thread turned into a joke thread, memes were allowed to be posted there, frustrated and frankly insulting comments were let a free pass, ect, ect.

I realize it was April Fool's day, but I wasn't joking around, so I expected to not be mocked in a thread posted in the feedback forum. That's all I really wanted to address with my initial post. I believe this is an isolated event and lessons were learned by both parties now.

There are some people saying that the staff are close minded and in some ways corrupt. I'm not so quick to agree on this point, infact I'd sooner diagree. Lunaris Adamantine does however bring up a few ways in which certain things can be handled better.

Specifically, I agree with the idea of replying to everyone respectfully. Even if said person is a troll, I think it'd be best to issue a warning and then pursue the matter privately. If he's unresponsive, then Livewire's actions in the thread were justified, though probably could've been clear of extra comments (but that's reallyyy minor honestly, the guy he was addressing really fucked up if you ask me).

For Universe's posts, if he apologized later and his initial post was addressed, then I see no issues. People post in the "moment posts", I can live with a mistake or two here and there. I get that his forum was being downplayed and he wasn't happy with it, it's understandable. If it was addressed later on, then I see no further issues in the matter.
I don't like Universe's reply to Lunaris Adamantine's post by bringing up his views on Asexuality and implying he was closed minded. That's something you guys can address for sure. I see that post as rather close to a personal attack that shouldn't have happened.

To address Audy's post (I'm going to call you Audy because your post is on another page and I forgot your username :D ), I don't think anyone would have a problem with the joke if the theme wasn't enforced. So I think your plan going forward about providing a toggle earlier, would be a great way to keep both party's happy. Personally I enjoyed it and got annoyed when having to work with it for longer. The idea wasn't bad, just execution could've improved in my opinion. Meming about Gen I seems like it would've been fun.

In general, I think some of you guys are being too "nitpicky" with these examples. Those example seem to be very rare cases themselves, but on the flip side the people bringing them up do have certain points which I think are valid, perhaps exaggerated. Also, even in this thread there are an awful lot of posts basically dismissing other posts. Omicorn's posts for example doesn't seem to be addressing anything(?) Sure OP there was presenting certain opinions as facts, but I think he provided good points. You shouldn't dismiss those because of his presentation. To hear opinions about how things are handled is probably the entire point of this thread. Quoting someone and stating that what they were saying was opinionated is very counter productive and contradictory.

FBI said:

'ayy, went off and read everyone's replies about the issue. It was interesting reading different people's points of views on the topics discussed. Personally addressing my post, I didn't intend to offend anyone or imply anyone was unfit for their positions. My main issue was the way in which my feedback thread turned into a joke thread, memes were allowed to be posted there, frustrated and frankly insulting comments were let a free pass, ect, ect.

I realize it was April Fool's day, but I wasn't joking around, so I expected to not be mocked in a thread posted in the feedback forum. That's all I really wanted to address with my initial post. I believe this is an isolated event and lessons were learned by both parties now.

There are some people saying that the staff are close minded and in some ways corrupt. I'm not so quick to agree on this point, infact I'd sooner diagree. Lunaris Adamantine does however bring up a few ways in which certain things can be handled better.

Specifically, I agree with the idea of replying to everyone respectfully. Even if said person is a troll, I think it'd be best to issue a warning and then pursue the matter privately. If he's unresponsive, then Livewire's actions in the thread were justified, though probably could've been clear of extra comments (but that's reallyyy minor honestly, the guy he was addressing really ****ed up if you ask me).

For Universe's posts, if he apologized later and his initial post was addressed, then I see no issues. People post in the "moment posts", I can live with a mistake or two here and there. I get that his forum was being downplayed and he wasn't happy with it, it's understandable. If it was addressed later on, then I see no further issues in the matter.
I don't like Universe's reply to Lunaris Adamantine's post by bringing up his views on Asexuality and implying he was closed minded. That's something you guys can address for sure. I see that post as rather close to a personal attack that shouldn't have happened.

To address Audy's post (I'm going to call you Audy because your post is on another page and I forgot your username :D ), I don't think anyone would have a problem with the joke if the theme wasn't enforced. So I think your plan going forward about providing a toggle earlier, would be a great way to keep both party's happy. Personally I enjoyed it and got annoyed when having to work with it for longer. The idea wasn't bad, just execution could've improved in my opinion. Meming about Gen I seems like it would've been fun.

In general, I think some of you guys are being too "nitpicky" with these examples. Those example seem to be very rare cases themselves, but on the flip side the people bringing them up do have certain points which I think are valid, perhaps exaggerated. Also, even in this thread there are an awful lot of posts basically dismissing other posts. Omicorn's posts for example doesn't seem to be addressing anything(?) Sure OP there was presenting certain opinions as facts, but I think he provided good points. You shouldn't dismiss those because of his presentation. To hear opinions about how things are handled is probably the entire point of this thread. Quoting someone and stating that what they were saying was opinionated is very counter productive and contradictory.

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I wasn't dismissing his post. I felt it was needed to clarify that part because it is counterproductive to the discussion to present opinions as irrefutable facts in a discussion like this. As you said, opinions are what this thread is all about, but that's why presenting them as facts is counterproductive.

Also, I can't post everything I'd like to say because I don't have access to a computer.

JohnnyMustang said:

Yes, there are differences. But in this case, Livewire was a hero for doing the exact same thing I did whilst I was getting a warning. That makes things different.

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I dealt with a problem member as I'm obligated to do. You were warned because you had the better part of a dozen posts in that thread going back and forth for hours with the troll guy and you did say he was "full of crap" and a "religious freak". I pointed out the (supposed) secularity of U.S. political tradition, the ridiculousness of his biblical claims, and warned him, rather bluntly, to cut the troll act or face some consequences for it, so again, i'm not sure why you're conflating our respective responses together because you are right, they were quite different. All I did was step in and clean up another mess - one you helped contribute to. That being said, you're welcome to contest any infraction or warning with staff, though, we'll go back and look at it again if you want.

Once we reach the point where comparisons to prostitution are made, I think the matter needs to move on.

Johnny, again, we'll tell you that if you have a problem with your warning and the situation that led to it, take it up with the staff member that gave it to you. If you don't like their response, then take it up with a member of senior staff. But this thread is not for talking about warnings and infractions issues. Again, I'll reiterate: Those are private matters between members and staff. Don't bring them out into public.

I'll also say that "you're full of crap" or "this joke sucks" is not on the same level of tact as "your argument does not hold up against US law" or "this April Fools joke literally makes the forum unusable for me." There's more to it, but you have to look at the full context of the situation when dealing with something. You can't judge everything and everyone the same straight across the board.

Now, again, if you have a problem with the warning that you received, take it up in private with the staff member that issued it to you. Doing it in public makes the situation blow up far more than it needs to be for both sides, because then everyone has to share their opinion, whether it's helpful or not and whether they're involved or not.