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Old 2 Weeks Ago (8:07 PM). Edited 2 Weeks Ago by Piii.
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    Ash's DP team kinda suck, since the only pokemon he used the most on his Sinnoh team was Infernape and Staraptor, the rest of his team was put in the back ground.

    The OS gave the main characters much better development then the AG/DP series both did, Ash in the Indigo League lost and learn from his mistakes to become an even more better Pokemon trainer, the next time he see Gary he would beat him. The Johto League is were Ash gotten a lot better as a Pokemon trainer and finally beaten Gary his long time rival for good, and he did it all in the same series, he developed and improved for both regions instead of one. That right there is good character development.
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    Old 2 Weeks Ago (2:54 AM). Edited 2 Weeks Ago by Decibel575.
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      Quote:
      Originally Posted by Piii View Post
      Ash's DP team kinda suck, since the only pokemon he used the most on his Sinnoh team was Infernape and Staraptor, the rest of his team was put in the back ground.

      The OS gave the main characters much better development then the AG/DP series both did, Ash in the Indigo League lost and learn from his mistakes to become an even more better Pokemon trainer, the next time he see Gary he would beat him. The Johto League is were Ash gotten a lot better as a Pokemon trainer and finally beaten Gary his long time rival for good, and he did it all in the same series, he developed and improved for both regions instead of one. That right there is good character development.
      First of all, did you even watch the DP anime fully? If so, when did you last watch it? Buizel, Gliscor and Torterra all got great development. I'll start with Torterra, back as a Turtwig it was a really speedy Pokemon, and Ash had relied on that speed and mobility as part of his strategy. After evolving, it grew, and so did it's weight. It was no longer as quick as before, and they both had to develop a completely new fighting style to compensate. Then came the Energy Ball power-up (I don't really remember how it worked) and Rock Climb. It gave it a bit of it's mobility back, and a rather powerful attack. In fact, dare I say, I think I like Torterra a little more than Bulbasaur.

      Buizel was originally caught by Dawn, and even when doing contests, he didn't really enjoy them. Aipom on the other hand, while on Ash's team, didn't really enjoy battles, but preferred contests. So, once Wallace noticed that, he suggested a trade, and that marks the first trade in the anime that actually made a difference later on. I don't know about you, but I loved that Lucario vs Buizel battle against Maylene. And I also feel like DP was the most creative out of any of the generations. With all the strategies that Ash developed. Like counter shield.

      Gliscor was originally the weakest in it's group, it could barely fly properly. While Paul went and caught the leader, Ash decided to capture this goofball because he grew attached to it. While doing his best to train him, it took the group being in trouble and a cameo of Gary with a Razor Claw to learn how to fly, as well as evolve. Even after they evolved, they continued training, even leaving his party for a while to come back for the Sinnoh League knowing Giga Impact.

      Infernape and Staraptor were originally Paul's and they were the ultimate decider to see if Ash's way of training was superior, or Paul's was. (Plus both of them are already overused in game, so of course he would use them a lot)
      I don't have much to say about Gible though, besides Draco Meteor and it's habit of hitting Piplup, I can't remember much.

      I actually liked Paul over Gary, sue me. He was just an all round better rival, putting a stop in Ash's stride, and imposing over him. I always put down that Elekid had perfect IVs, and the fact that they are both electric types is why they were originally a draw. There was development on all sides, pokemon and people alike.

      You say that the Pokemon in the Original series had good development, but all Charizard has was that it finally listened to Ash. Not much development after that. :/ It's even sent away with Ash calling it whenever the going get's tough, Deus ex Charizard.
      Butterfree was depressing, admittedly, but poor Primeape. As soon as he get's proper screentime, he is released. We never really see Muk. Pidgeot was just there for a bird. Bulbasaur and Squirtle, now..

      Bulbasaur was always a leader, and it sort of stayed that way all the way through till now. It not wanting to evolve, along with Pikachu and Squirtle, while still being one of his go to Pokemon can't really be considered development otherwise. Either way, I love the episodes that it sees Ash again, it looks so happy.

      Squirtle was originally part of a gang of released Pokemon that terrorised the city, and after all that happened, his gang became firefighter's and he joined Ash. He didn't get much development throughout, except for it's friendship with Bulbasaur. In comes Johto, the fire fighter's competition, where he sees that his gang has also grown. He rejoins them, and isn't seen until the Johto league where we find out all of his gang have evolved into Blastoise, so he is pretty much in retirement now.
      We never really see Snorlax anymore either, too much to feed. And he has 29 Tauros most of us have never even seen. He used one in the Orange Islands, but that't it. They are also a running gag in running Ash over.

      Ash's first capture in Johto, being Heracross was only there for a running gag of it wanting to eat Bulbasaur's nectar. He is strong, but also isn't used all that much. Used a little in the Johto league and Sinnoh league.
      Next is Noctowl, his only shiny Pokemon. Again, used to promote shiny Pokemon, and Ash needs the regional bird. While used in the usual hunt team rocket and the few gym battles, it didn't really develop much either.
      I'd say the only Pokemon in Johto with any extravagant development is Bayleef. Coming to terms with her own strength, and being careful while also showing her affection. Being jealous and the like.
      Cyndaquil got a little, with being able to use it's full strength whenever he wanted without needing to warm up first. As well as an evolution in Sinnoh, which I feel was a little unneeded, but oh well.
      Now it's Totodile, the Pokemon Ash fought Misty over. Not much to say about him, he just seemed like a playful child. Nothing comes to mind for him either.

      Brock and Misty.. Brock did get some development throughout the series, but again, the most was in DP when he decided to become a doctor. He pretty much stayed the same throughout until then.
      Misty on the other hand, was completely obnoxious all the way throughout the show. They were always arguing, and she never really accomplished anything. The only reason she followed Ash was because of her Bike, while Brock joined him to develop his own skills. (Still mad she stole Togepi BTW)

      She is rude to her poor Psyduck, and she didn't even like Politoad at first. Considering her goal was to be a water type master, she didn't really do that much towards it. Brock was always learning. Her biggest development came in AG, where she released her newly evolved Togetic because she sort of had to.

      Brock was always there as a sign of wisdom for Ash, and once he left, Ash was a little lost. (My head canon for why he was so dumb in BW. He didn't have Brock to help him) Although the running gag he had with every female they met got a little repetitive. Brock even got development away from Ash. When he had to win back his rock type gym from his evil step mother. He beat her with Ash like tactics, and won even against water types. In DP, he was in his element, always helping nurse joy, he even had a Happiny of his own. And Brock, while being a Rock Type gym leader actually has less rock types than his other Pokemon. That is development in my mind.


      OK, personally my order of best generations are
      1. XY (The best by far, writing, character, animation wise. In every way it is the best. Plus Amourshipping is canon, so even better)

      2. DP(It is honestly really bloody good. Every character was memorable and human)

      3. SM (If people actually sat down, ignored the new art style, and focus on what it is without comparing it to other generations, it is actually pretty good. It was never meant to be like the others, and Ash joined the school because it looked fun and he didn't have plans for another league. He wasn't forced into abandoning his dream)

      4. AG (This is purely for Nostalgia, as I grew up with AG)

      5. OG (Kanto to Johto, including Orange Islands)

      6. BW (It was just a soft reboot, just like the games were meant to be)

      Hate my opinion if you want, but it won't change how I feel. And I am someone who enjoys every generation, so no hate on the OG gen.

      Almost forgot Krabby, that's how forgettable it was. :p So nothing really to say.


      TL;DR DP has much better development and characters compared to the OG, but XY will always be superior. Sorry for the long post/reply. Just needed to get my point across
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      Old 2 Weeks Ago (5:39 AM). Edited 2 Weeks Ago by weedle_mchairybug.
      weedle_mchairybug weedle_mchairybug is offline
         
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        Quote:
        Originally Posted by Decibel575 View Post
        First of all, did you even watch the DP anime fully? If so, when did you last watch it? Buizel, Gliscor and Torterra all got great development. I'll start with Torterra, back as a Turtwig it was a really speedy Pokemon, and Ash had relied on that speed and mobility as part of his strategy. After evolving, it grew, and so did it's weight. It was no longer as quick as before, and they both had to develop a completely new fighting style to compensate. Then came the Energy Ball power-up (I don't really remember how it worked) and Rock Climb. It gave it a bit of it's mobility back, and a rather powerful attack. In fact, dare I say, I think I like Torterra a little more than Bulbasaur.

        Buizel was originally caught by Dawn, and even when doing contests, he didn't really enjoy them. Aipom on the other hand, while on Ash's team, didn't really enjoy battles, but preferred contests. So, once Wallace noticed that, he suggested a trade, and that marks the first trade in the anime that actually made a difference later on. I don't know about you, but I loved that Lucario vs Buizel battle against Maylene. And I also feel like DP was the most creative out of any of the generations. With all the strategies that Ash developed. Like counter shield.
        Fine, I'll give you Buizel. Too bad that outright conflicted with the fact that Ash was not fond of trading at all (the last time he tried to do a trade, he instantly regretted it).

        Quote:
        Gliscor was originally the weakest in it's group, it could barely fly properly. While Paul went and caught the leader, Ash decided to capture this goofball because he grew attached to it. While doing his best to train him, it took the group being in trouble and a cameo of Gary with a Razor Claw to learn how to fly, as well as evolve. Even after they evolved, they continued training, even leaving his party for a while to come back for the Sinnoh League knowing Giga Impact.

        Infernape and Staraptor were originally Paul's and they were the ultimate decider to see if Ash's way of training was superior, or Paul's was. (Plus both of them are already overused in game, so of course he would use them a lot)
        I don't have much to say about Gible though, besides Draco Meteor and it's habit of hitting Piplup, I can't remember much.
        Okay, I'll give you Infernape (too bad thanks to Infernape, Pikachu basically had to be dealt with a very humiliating defeat at the hands of Ursaring despite Paul losing to Brandon, aka the same guy Ash beat his Regice via Pikachu, practically one-shotted it.). I don't think Staraptor was ever owned by Paul, though. Actually, if I recall correctly, Ash's Staraptor was used against a similar Pokémon belonging to Paul, and Paul released it DESPITE winning against Ash's Starraptor (well, technically Starly, but still...).

        Quote:
        I actually liked Paul over Gary, sue me. He was just an all round better rival, putting a stop in Ash's stride, and imposing over him. I always put down that Elekid had perfect IVs, and the fact that they are both electric types is why they were originally a draw. There was development on all sides, pokemon and people alike.
        Maybe you can use Elekid IVs as an excuse, and maybe that it was a late capture in whatever was Paul's prior region. However, that still doesn't excuse the fact that Pikachu had to tie against him (do I really have to point out that Pikachu is the same one who, barely even a couple of episodes back, managed to beat a freaking Regice, and one under the command of a Pokémon trainer, no less?). And it certainly doesn't excuse the fact that Paul's Ursaring outright humiliated Pikachu despite the former being an explicit rookie (even seeing its capture in Paul's second episode, third if we count his brief cameo in the ending of DP002), and what's even worse is that Paul outright LOST to Brandon immediately beforehand. And quite frankly, the entire POINT of a rival is to indicate that it's the Rival's training methods who are flawed compared to the main character, so when Paul is basically forcing Ash to question his methods, they aren't doing it right. At least Gary eventually questioned whether he was taking training all that seriously and eventually decided to get a bit more serious, so Gary at least had more of a natural development. Paul barely even really changed all that much. And quite frankly, after traveling as long as he has at this point, it would be more fitting if Ash got a more Vegeta-esque rival (ie, one who outright envies Ash and wants to best him), rather than have Ash be in the more Vegeta-esque position.

        Quote:
        You say that the Pokemon in the Original series had good development, but all Charizard has was that it finally listened to Ash. Not much development after that. :/ It's even sent away with Ash calling it whenever the going get's tough, Deus ex Charizard.
        Butterfree was depressing, admittedly, but poor Primeape. As soon as he get's proper screentime, he is released. We never really see Muk. Pidgeot was just there for a bird. Bulbasaur and Squirtle, now..
        Eh, even they got some development, especially when Charizard came from a very abusive trainer (in fact, so abusive he made Paul seem like he had an actual heart. Probably the only fire-type whose trainer was even worse than Charizard's former trainer was the pig one from Unova), and it is heavily implied that his later disobedience of Ash was largely thanks to him imprinting most of Damian's more negative aspects onto him. And Butterfree also had it gaining a mate as development. Even Pidgeotto at least had it deciding to help out its fellow flock. And Primeape had similar development to Charizard, well, besides the whole trainer bit. Unlike Charizard, Primeape was wild from the get-go (and technically, he wasn't released, he was put into training by another trainer). Even Muk at least is demonstrated to be really fond of Oak and Ash.

        Quote:
        Bulbasaur was always a leader, and it sort of stayed that way all the way through till now. It not wanting to evolve, along with Pikachu and Squirtle, while still being one of his go to Pokemon can't really be considered development otherwise. Either way, I love the episodes that it sees Ash again, it looks so happy.

        Squirtle was originally part of a gang of released Pokemon that terrorised the city, and after all that happened, his gang became firefighter's and he joined Ash. He didn't get much development throughout, except for it's friendship with Bulbasaur. In comes Johto, the fire fighter's competition, where he sees that his gang has also grown. He rejoins them, and isn't seen until the Johto league where we find out all of his gang have evolved into Blastoise, so he is pretty much in retirement now.
        We never really see Snorlax anymore either, too much to feed. And he has 29 Tauros most of us have never even seen. He used one in the Orange Islands, but that't it. They are also a running gag in running Ash over.
        Actually, Squirtle's gang hasn't evolved. You're mixing up their rivals, the Wartortle squad, and in fact, it left specifically to resume duties as their head so they'd be able to train against them. I'd also like to point out that Squirtle has also shown some development as well, namely that it is fearful of its evolution, like Bulbasaur, has also shown some degree of cynicism (like thinking his trainers were devoured in Island of the Giant Pokémon), and it also was shown to put aside its rivalry with its evolved forms to help them.

        Quote:
        Ash's first capture in Johto, being Heracross was only there for a running gag of it wanting to eat Bulbasaur's nectar. He is strong, but also isn't used all that much. Used a little in the Johto league and Sinnoh league.
        Next is Noctowl, his only shiny Pokemon. Again, used to promote shiny Pokemon, and Ash needs the regional bird. While used in the usual hunt team rocket and the few gym battles, it didn't really develop much either.
        I'd say the only Pokemon in Johto with any extravagant development is Bayleef. Coming to terms with her own strength, and being careful while also showing her affection. Being jealous and the like.
        Cyndaquil got a little, with being able to use it's full strength whenever he wanted without needing to warm up first. As well as an evolution in Sinnoh, which I feel was a little unneeded, but oh well.
        Now it's Totodile, the Pokemon Ash fought Misty over. Not much to say about him, he just seemed like a playful child. Nothing comes to mind for him either.
        Eh, they still had some development.

        Quote:
        Brock and Misty.. Brock did get some development throughout the series, but again, the most was in DP when he decided to become a doctor. He pretty much stayed the same throughout until then.
        I'll admit his switching to Pokémon Doctor was one of the show's better moves. Too bad he did so AFTER leaving (would have been nice to demonstrate that goal in the main cast, would come in handy especially if a Pokémon Center is too far away).

        Quote:
        Misty on the other hand, was completely obnoxious all the way throughout the show. They were always arguing, and she never really accomplished anything. The only reason she followed Ash was because of her Bike, while Brock joined him to develop his own skills. (Still mad she stole Togepi BTW)
        It's actually a bit more than her bike, but I'll let that bit slide. As far as accomplishments, she won the Princess Festival, may have won that swimsuit competition, and got Top 16 in the Whirl Cup (well, technically, it's closer to Top 8 since her rival lost to the guy who lost to the champion), that Seaking fishing competition, and she also won that water race thing in Movie 5. And aside from that, she accomplished quite a few things during her time on the show (heck, if it weren't for her, Ash and Pikachu would be DEAD. Bear that in mind the next time you denounce her. On that note, she's also pretty much the reason Ash even got to fight Blaine. In fact, many times if it weren't for her, Ash would not be able to continue his journey.). Besides, if you ask me, Misty was downright TOLERABLE compared to May and Dawn.

        Quote:
        She is rude to her poor Psyduck, and she didn't even like Politoad at first. Considering her goal was to be a water type master, she didn't really do that much towards it.
        Getting Top 16/Top 8 in the Whirl Cup was actually pretty large strides to that kind of development (and let's be fair, the only reason we didn't get much regarding that goal is because Takeshi Shudo stupidly chose to keep Team Rocket over Misty. I'm willing to bet that if she were allowed to continue in Hoenn, we would have gotten a LOT more development in that front). Also, she was still willing to encourage Psyduck and in the Koga episode even attempted to hone out its inner power. Either way, she still developed in her goal a LOT more than Ash ever did (we never got any indications as to HOW he's to get to his goal until DP, as not even winning a league was any indication that he actually managed to get to his goal going by the Orange Islands). And, so? She still likes Politoad now, and technically, that acts as development.

        Either way, Misty still had more natural development than the various girls other than Iris and possibly Lillie.

        Quote:
        Brock was always learning. Her biggest development came in AG, where she released her newly evolved Togetic because she sort of had to.
        Well, I'll give you Brock. I wouldn't call that her biggest development, though. I've seen much bigger development than that on her run in the show.

        Quote:
        Brock was always there as a sign of wisdom for Ash, and once he left, Ash was a little lost. (My head canon for why he was so dumb in BW. He didn't have Brock to help him) Although the running gag he had with every female they met got a little repetitive. Brock even got development away from Ash. When he had to win back his rock type gym from his evil step mother. He beat her with Ash like tactics, and won even against water types. In DP, he was in his element, always helping nurse joy, he even had a Happiny of his own. And Brock, while being a Rock Type gym leader actually has less rock types than his other Pokemon. That is development in my mind.
        No, not even his stepmother, his actual birthmother. And I'm a bit hesitant to say he's a sign of wisdom for Ash (last I checked, he fell hook line and sinker to James claim that he died as a kid, and besides, he didn't exactly do well with Blaine's riddles). And personally, after his mom nearly wrecked the gym twice, he should have taken over the gym after his family proved just how irresponsible they were in managing the gym. I'll definitely state he had a lot of development, though. Too bad he barely even focused on his goal of, you know, actually BREEDING Pokémon. You have to admit, even Misty at least focused on her Water Pokémon Master goal.

        Quote:
        OK, personally my order of best generations are
        1. XY (The best by far, writing, character, animation wise. In every way it is the best. Plus Amourshipping is canon, so even better)

        2. DP(It is honestly really bloody good. Every character was memorable and human)

        3. SM (If people actually sat down, ignored the new art style, and focus on what it is without comparing it to other generations, it is actually pretty good. It was never meant to be like the others, and Ash joined the school because it looked fun and he didn't have plans for another league. He wasn't forced into abandoning his dream)

        4. AG (This is purely for Nostalgia, as I grew up with AG)

        5. OG (Kanto to Johto, including Orange Islands)

        6. BW (It was just a soft reboot, just like the games were meant to be)

        Hate my opinion if you want, but it won't change how I feel. And I am someone who enjoys every generation, so no hate on the OG gen.
        Well, I'll give you that XY was definitely good (heck, until the Kanto Reunion arc for SM, that was the closest since OS that the gym leaders got actual redemption). OS still beats it, though, mostly because it's the only series to actually SHOW Ash developing as a trainer (since we see him participate in two leagues, three if we count Orange Islands). DP would be just below XY, mostly because like XY, that series also has Ash advancing in rank (I'm still not sure I'd say it's a good series, especially not when his Battle Frontier win was treated like a complete joke by the likes of Paul and the various Gym Leaders). AG and BW, they're definitely among the worst, with the former pretty much being so sub-standard you could skip it and not really miss much, not even having Ash actually advance in rank, and the latter... well, even by soft-reboot reasons, Ash was grossly mishandled. Don't even get me started on how utterly mishandled the Gym Leaders were by either making them joke characters akin to Team Rocket or, in the case of DP, only coming across as better due to Ash and Pikachu taking a massive level in incompetence. SM I'm considering bottom rung mostly because he was treated even worse than in SM, not to mention isn't focusing on his goal at all, which even BW at least had. Maybe if he had won the Kalos league, I could overlook his taking a break, but as it is, this wasn't even remotely good as it is.

        Quote:
        Almost forgot Krabby, that's how forgettable it was. :p So nothing really to say.


        TL;DR DP has much better development and characters compared to the OG, but XY will always be superior. Sorry for the long post/reply. Just needed to get my point across
        Eh, I don't know about DP having better development and characters. Like I said, Paul really didn't work too well as a character (and personally, I do not like Ash being humiliated after beating a legendary Pokémon beforehand singlehandedly with just his Pikachu), it had Ash's win being stolen from him by a literal last-minute twist via legendaries (and having Pikachu lose again, despite winning against Regice), and it also doesn't help that Dawn barely had much actual development (even May had a bit more development in the more cheap manner). I mean, sure, he's better done than Trip, but then again, anyone was better than Trip. At least the Gym Leaders in the OS actually came across as strong without hampering Ash at all, not to mention Gary actually received some manner of development as well. And if you ask me, Misty and Brock definitely did far more to actually HELP Ash as a trainer than any of the characters afterward ever did).

        As far as Krabby, it got some development as well, being somewhat mischevious yet loyal.
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        Old 2 Weeks Ago (7:17 AM).
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          Hmm, I guess I did forget a lot of Misty's accomplishment's. I guess Pokeshipper's just made me hate her more than I should. I'll give you that. But her reason to visit Alola was pretty stupid compared to Brock. I know that she needs a vacation and all that, but does that really justify a second return just to eat pancakes and advertise something from a game 2 years ago? Brock had come to hone his skills, and he accomplished a lot there. He calmed a Kangaskhan, caught a new pokemon in Comfey, did she usual Brock cooking, he did that pair Z-Move with Olivia, (Rockshipping for life). The writers must LOVE Brock. I just find Misty really annoying, and I can't see why people like her as much as they do.

          May was sort of like a disciple for Ash, which culminated in their final battle, where they both still carry that ribbon they share. The real annoying character was Max, who was almost Iris level for me. Dawn on the other hand was a lot closer, they both actively cheered each other on and inspired the other. I will admit that the skirt she wears is waaay too short to be normal, and she somehow even wore it in Snowpoint. I never really noticed how May was, I guess because I was a child when I first watched it. But I still don't really see a problem with her design.

          Speaking of Brock, I feel like it was being hinted throughout the whole DP series that he was going to become a doctor, it just suits him more.
          About that woman, it was stated in the episode that we meet Brock, his mother had passed away and Flint was left to look after the children. He ended up leaving to go on a journey, hence why Brock couldn't leave. I was really confused when I first saw her too.


          And the Squirtle Squad thing. It was stated when Officer Jenny dropped off Squirtle at the Johto league, he wasn't really needed anymore as his squad had evolved. That's why he had time to battle with Ash. Honestly, I would have rather seen some more of Kingler in that battle, but oh well.

          Ash always wants what's best for his Pokemon, and he knew how much Aipom liked contests, so he probably felt it was for the best. He still got to see her everyday anyway. Ash they still would journey together.

          While the way Trip humiliated Ash I didn't like, I feel that Paul brought out the best in Ash and his team. Ash's Starly was one of three that Paul had caught, but he deemed unworthy after checking their IV's, which I didn't even think were in the anime, Ash caught it with Aipom, and then Ash kick's Paul's A** with him. I loved that final battle against Paul, as it was an all in battle. Ash used the same Pokemon that he used when he lost last time, just to prove a point. Meaning Paul had the advantage with knowing Ash's strategies. That Infernape Blaze vs Electavire was an end to their own rivalry, since Chimchar was in Paul's party. Infernape finally proved his own strength.

          Well, Ash had just been Runner-Up AND almost bloody died, so I think giving him a break is justified, SM is meant to be more relate-able to the people still in school. Sort of like a slice of life anime. Why do you think all of Ash's Pokemon are all house pets? It's why he can go out to the beach and play, as well as training. He is living his life that I don't think he would have gotten otherwise. A father figure in Kukui, and a mother figure in Bernet. Ash is still learning here, he is learning to cook on his own, doing laundry, relying less on other people. He is still developing as a character, even without constant battles. As soon as I realised that I should be taking SM as it's own entity, I enjoyed it a whole lot more. I love watching it, and seeing characters from past one's showing up, like the shop keeper, or even the persian. It makes the world feel more alive. It even tackled death in a more profound way. We got an amazing episode pair that we haven't seen in a long while with the Guzzlord episodes.

          It seems I also forgot about Charizard's backstory too, why do all of Ash's fire starter's have to have had a bad trainer in the past? XD
          Again, my intention was never to give hate to any series, as I love them all, even BW, in it's own ways.

          One last thing, while they have sort of been only comedic for a long while, Team Rocket is a staple to Pokemon now, and are many people's favourites. I didn't really like how BW made them serious again. It didn't suit the characters we had known and loved for so long
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          Old 2 Weeks Ago (8:04 AM).
          weedle_mchairybug weedle_mchairybug is offline
             
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            Quote:
            Originally Posted by Decibel575 View Post
            Hmm, I guess I did forget a lot of Misty's accomplishment's. I guess Pokeshipper's just made me hate her more than I should. I'll give you that. But her reason to visit Alola was pretty stupid compared to Brock. I know that she needs a vacation and all that, but does that really justify a second return just to eat pancakes and advertise something from a game 2 years ago? Brock had come to hone his skills, and he accomplished a lot there. He calmed a Kangaskhan, caught a new pokemon in Comfey, did she usual Brock cooking, he did that pair Z-Move with Olivia, (Rockshipping for life). The writers must LOVE Brock. I just find Misty really annoying, and I can't see why people like her as much as they do.
            Hey, as long as it gets her out of the gym and back to actively pursuing her goal of Water Pokémon Master, I'll be fine with it. And just as an FYI, I don't really buy into Pokeshipping myself (heck, I don't even bother doing any shipping unless it's love at first sight thanks largely to Disney movies and to a lesser extent Romeo and Juliet. Even there, it needs to work out well, meaning I'm even less likely to be an Amourshipper than a Pokeshipper despite that actually dealing with Love at First Sight). One reason I personally am very loyal to Misty is actually because she isn't one of those Hina stereotypes (and I'd know, I watched Princess vs. Princess). If she acted anything like those Fiorello Fangirls in Princess vs. Princess, or the girls from Love Hina (both of whom my parents taught me to hate), do you really think I'd even be half as loyal to Misty as I am now?

            And I'm doubtful she was brought in to advertise Let's Go Pikachu & Eevee, if that's what you're indicating. They already hinted that she'll appear in Alola in the final part of the Kanto Reunion arc, among other things (and that was well before LGPE was even implied to be in development). Heck, I'm actually eagerly awaiting her third appearance (and I know there's going to be a third since they stressed they'd like to visit Alola again), especially if it means she's actually allowed to resume her Water Pokémon Master goal.

            Quote:
            May was sort of like a disciple for Ash, which culminated in their final battle, where they both still carry that ribbon they share. The real annoying character was Max, who was almost Iris level for me. Dawn on the other hand was a lot closer, they both actively cheered each other on and inspired the other. I will admit that the skirt she wears is waaay too short to be normal, and she somehow even wore it in Snowpoint. I never really noticed how May was, I guess because I was a child when I first watched it. But I still don't really see a problem with her design.
            May unfortunately came across as a bit too much like a Love Hina character, so I really don't have much love for her (and it also doesn't help that she just started out disliking Pokémon for no real reason. I mean, I'm sorry, but you have a pretty good family life especially compared to Misty and Brock, or Jessie and James for that matter, and to top it all off, your dad is a gym leader, meaning you're going to be exposed to battles loads of days, yet you somehow dislike if not hate Pokémon, and you end up deciding to become a trainer? It's like a child hater acting as a Kindergarten teacher. Also doesn't help that she blew whatever genuine development she received in the Manaphy movie by basically letting Phantom abscond with Manaphy, who was essentially her baby, like some coward, not try to save Manaphy's butt from him, or, heck, even try to AID Ash. At least Misty actually DID try to save her Togepi whenever it was in danger).

            Dawn was slightly better, I'll admit, but even she was pretty irritating overall.

            Quote:
            Speaking of Brock, I feel like it was being hinted throughout the whole DP series that he was going to become a doctor, it just suits him more.
            About that woman, it was stated in the episode that we meet Brock, his mother had passed away and Flint was left to look after the children. He ended up leaving to go on a journey, hence why Brock couldn't leave. I was really confused when I first saw her too.
            Yeah, I understand why you'd be confused. See, in the original Japanese version, his mom just turned out to be as bad as his dad, meaning both ditched their children. The dub toned this bit down by having only Flint actually abandon his children. And to be fair to 4Kids, no one could have predicted Brock's mother coming back five years later, nine if we strictly go by the main series.

            They should have stuck with Pokémon Doctor from the get go. At least there, he'd show some actual usefulness to the group (think along the lines of a healer in an RPG. That would come in handy if the Pokémon Center is too far away). Instead, even though Johto introduced breeding, he never was allowed to breed even once, and only raised two eggs, and of them, only one he actually raised after hatching. They don't even let the two Pokémon copulate, which even Tracey was able to do. Of course, personally, I also would have liked Brock more during AG and DP if they didn't turn him into Glenn Quagmire.

            Quote:
            And the Squirtle Squad thing. It was stated when Officer Jenny dropped off Squirtle at the Johto league, he wasn't really needed anymore as his squad had evolved. That's why he had time to battle with Ash. Honestly, I would have rather seen some more of Kingler in that battle, but oh well.
            Yeah, that's odd, Bulbapedia indicated that the Squirtle Squad was still around.

            Quote:
            Ash always wants what's best for his Pokemon, and he knew how much Aipom liked contests, so he probably felt it was for the best. He still got to see her everyday anyway. Ash they still would journey together.
            Yeah, at least until Aipom, or rather, Ambipom left for that trainer for a ping-pong thing.

            Quote:
            While the way Trip humiliated Ash I didn't like, I feel that Paul brought out the best in Ash and his team. Ash's Starly was one of three that Paul had caught, but he deemed unworthy after checking their IV's, which I didn't even think were in the anime, Ash caught it with Aipom, and then Ash kick's Paul's A** with him. I loved that final battle against Paul, as it was an all in battle. Ash used the same Pokemon that he used when he lost last time, just to prove a point. Meaning Paul had the advantage with knowing Ash's strategies. That Infernape Blaze vs Electavire was an end to their own rivalry, since Chimchar was in Paul's party. Infernape finally proved his own strength.
            Maybe, but usually rivals in the games have their own strategies questioned, NOT the main characters, and it also doesn't help that a few times Paul had Ash lose to him in ways Ash really shouldn't (even if they really must insist on having Ash lose to Paul the second time around, couldn't they at LEAST have Pikachu lose to Paul's Torterra? That Pokémon IS Paul's starter, after all, and Pikachu is Ash's starter. That would have been a bit more palatable given their close experience level than Pikachu being outright raped by a rookie Ursaring, especially after Paul lost to Brandon, which Pikachu beat his Regice earlier.).

            Quote:
            Well, Ash had just been Runner-Up AND almost bloody died, so I think giving him a break is justified, SM is meant to be more relate-able to the people still in school. Sort of like a slice of life anime. Why do you think all of Ash's Pokemon are all house pets? It's why he can go out to the beach and play, as well as training. He is living his life that I don't think he would have gotten otherwise. A father figure in Kukui, and a mother figure in Bernet. Ash is still learning here, he is learning to cook on his own, doing laundry, relying less on other people. He is still developing as a character, even without constant battles. As soon as I realised that I should be taking SM as it's own entity, I enjoyed it a whole lot more. I love watching it, and seeing characters from past one's showing up, like the shop keeper, or even the persian. It makes the world feel more alive. It even tackled death in a more profound way. We got an amazing episode pair that we haven't seen in a long while with the Guzzlord episodes.
            Eh, maybe, but it still didn't seem to work out too well even with slice of life stuff. I'd tolerate it a lot more if he actually won the dang thing earlier (I mean, come on! Generation VII when it was first unveiled made it pretty clear there wasn't going to be any gyms. Had I been the writers, I would have had Ash win the dang thing just to ensure he at least doesn't have to worry about another league until another generation later).

            Quote:
            It seems I also forgot about Charizard's backstory too, why do all of Ash's fire starter's have to have had a bad trainer in the past? XD
            Again, my intention was never to give hate to any series, as I love them all, even BW, in it's own ways.
            Well, to be fair, only Litten and Cyndaquil didn't have horrible trainers before Ash (though that being said, Cyndaquil did nearly come close to being caught by an abusive trainer).

            Quote:
            One last thing, while they have sort of been only comedic for a long while, Team Rocket is a staple to Pokemon now, and are many people's favourites. I didn't really like how BW made them serious again. It didn't suit the characters we had known and loved for so long
            I didn't exactly like BW Team Rocket, either, though for different reasons: Namely they utterly blew their seriousness by taking out Pikachu. I would have found them taking out one of Ash's rookies to be a bit more fitting in terms of making them serious, especially when the start of their earlier rot was their being manslaughtered by Ash's Caterpie. I am definitely not fond of Team Rocket during AG or DP, comedic or not, because they just didn't come across as threats. And it's not like they have to forego comedy to be a threat either. General Blue from Dragon Ball, for example was downright hilarious at times, and he actually proved himself to be a genuine threat to Goku twice. I can also cite the Joker or Kefka Palazzo or Ardyn Izunia as well, or even Bowser and Dr. Eggman on their good days. Or heck, making them more like Ridley from Metroid as well (and you'd be pretty surprised at how humorous that guy is, albeit in a very dark manner, like how in his reveal trailer for Super Smash Bros. Ultimate, he proceeded to tauntingly twirl Mario's hat in front of Samus). Say what you will about OS Team Rocket, at least they had moments of being genuine threats in addition to being humorous, a good balance.
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            Old 1 Week Ago (2:19 AM). Edited 1 Week Ago by Piii.
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              Quote:
              Originally Posted by Decibel575 View Post
              First of all, did you even watch the DP anime fully? If so, when did you last watch it? Buizel, Gliscor and Torterra all got great development. I'll start with Torterra, back as a Turtwig it was a really speedy Pokemon, and Ash had relied on that speed and mobility as part of his strategy. After evolving, it grew, and so did it's weight. It was no longer as quick as before, and they both had to develop a completely new fighting style to compensate. Then came the Energy Ball power-up (I don't really remember how it worked) and Rock Climb. It gave it a bit of it's mobility back, and a rather powerful attack. In fact, dare I say, I think I like Torterra a little more than Bulbasaur.

              Buizel was originally caught by Dawn, and even when doing contests, he didn't really enjoy them. Aipom on the other hand, while on Ash's team, didn't really enjoy battles, but preferred contests. So, once Wallace noticed that, he suggested a trade, and that marks the first trade in the anime that actually made a difference later on. I don't know about you, but I loved that Lucario vs Buizel battle against Maylene. And I also feel like DP was the most creative out of any of the generations. With all the strategies that Ash developed. Like counter shield.

              Gliscor was originally the weakest in it's group, it could barely fly properly. While Paul went and caught the leader, Ash decided to capture this goofball because he grew attached to it. While doing his best to train him, it took the group being in trouble and a cameo of Gary with a Razor Claw to learn how to fly, as well as evolve. Even after they evolved, they continued training, even leaving his party for a while to come back for the Sinnoh League knowing Giga Impact.

              Infernape and Staraptor were originally Paul's and they were the ultimate decider to see if Ash's way of training was superior, or Paul's was. (Plus both of them are already overused in game, so of course he would use them a lot)
              I don't have much to say about Gible though, besides Draco Meteor and it's habit of hitting Piplup, I can't remember much.

              I actually liked Paul over Gary, sue me. He was just an all round better rival, putting a stop in Ash's stride, and imposing over him. I always put down that Elekid had perfect IVs, and the fact that they are both electric types is why they were originally a draw. There was development on all sides, pokemon and people alike.

              You say that the Pokemon in the Original series had good development, but all Charizard has was that it finally listened to Ash. Not much development after that. :/ It's even sent away with Ash calling it whenever the going get's tough, Deus ex Charizard.
              Butterfree was depressing, admittedly, but poor Primeape. As soon as he get's proper screentime, he is released. We never really see Muk. Pidgeot was just there for a bird. Bulbasaur and Squirtle, now..

              Bulbasaur was always a leader, and it sort of stayed that way all the way through till now. It not wanting to evolve, along with Pikachu and Squirtle, while still being one of his go to Pokemon can't really be considered development otherwise. Either way, I love the episodes that it sees Ash again, it looks so happy.

              Squirtle was originally part of a gang of released Pokemon that terrorised the city, and after all that happened, his gang became firefighter's and he joined Ash. He didn't get much development throughout, except for it's friendship with Bulbasaur. In comes Johto, the fire fighter's competition, where he sees that his gang has also grown. He rejoins them, and isn't seen until the Johto league where we find out all of his gang have evolved into Blastoise, so he is pretty much in retirement now.
              We never really see Snorlax anymore either, too much to feed. And he has 29 Tauros most of us have never even seen. He used one in the Orange Islands, but that't it. They are also a running gag in running Ash over.

              Ash's first capture in Johto, being Heracross was only there for a running gag of it wanting to eat Bulbasaur's nectar. He is strong, but also isn't used all that much. Used a little in the Johto league and Sinnoh league.
              Next is Noctowl, his only shiny Pokemon. Again, used to promote shiny Pokemon, and Ash needs the regional bird. While used in the usual hunt team rocket and the few gym battles, it didn't really develop much either.
              I'd say the only Pokemon in Johto with any extravagant development is Bayleef. Coming to terms with her own strength, and being careful while also showing her affection. Being jealous and the like.
              Cyndaquil got a little, with being able to use it's full strength whenever he wanted without needing to warm up first. As well as an evolution in Sinnoh, which I feel was a little unneeded, but oh well.
              Now it's Totodile, the Pokemon Ash fought Misty over. Not much to say about him, he just seemed like a playful child. Nothing comes to mind for him either.

              Brock and Misty.. Brock did get some development throughout the series, but again, the most was in DP when he decided to become a doctor. He pretty much stayed the same throughout until then.
              Misty on the other hand, was completely obnoxious all the way throughout the show. They were always arguing, and she never really accomplished anything. The only reason she followed Ash was because of her Bike, while Brock joined him to develop his own skills. (Still mad she stole Togepi BTW)

              She is rude to her poor Psyduck, and she didn't even like Politoad at first. Considering her goal was to be a water type master, she didn't really do that much towards it. Brock was always learning. Her biggest development came in AG, where she released her newly evolved Togetic because she sort of had to.

              Brock was always there as a sign of wisdom for Ash, and once he left, Ash was a little lost. (My head canon for why he was so dumb in BW. He didn't have Brock to help him) Although the running gag he had with every female they met got a little repetitive. Brock even got development away from Ash. When he had to win back his rock type gym from his evil step mother. He beat her with Ash like tactics, and won even against water types. In DP, he was in his element, always helping nurse joy, he even had a Happiny of his own. And Brock, while being a Rock Type gym leader actually has less rock types than his other Pokemon. That is development in my mind.


              OK, personally my order of best generations are
              1. XY (The best by far, writing, character, animation wise. In every way it is the best. Plus Amourshipping is canon, so even better)

              2. DP(It is honestly really bloody good. Every character was memorable and human)

              3. SM (If people actually sat down, ignored the new art style, and focus on what it is without comparing it to other generations, it is actually pretty good. It was never meant to be like the others, and Ash joined the school because it looked fun and he didn't have plans for another league. He wasn't forced into abandoning his dream)

              4. AG (This is purely for Nostalgia, as I grew up with AG)

              5. OG (Kanto to Johto, including Orange Islands)

              6. BW (It was just a soft reboot, just like the games were meant to be)

              Hate my opinion if you want, but it won't change how I feel. And I am someone who enjoys every generation, so no hate on the OG gen.

              Almost forgot Krabby, that's how forgettable it was. :p So nothing really to say.


              TL;DR DP has much better development and characters compared to the OG, but XY will always be superior. Sorry for the long post/reply. Just needed to get my point across
              I don't know what show you been watching.

              DP did suck and wasn't good at all.

              Buizel didn't perform that well in battles and it only had one League win, Torterra gotten it's butt handed to him in everybattle he been in and it didn't even win in the last Sinnoh Gym. Staraptor did have a few Gym battles under his belt and a few League wins aswell, Infernape was really good in all of it's Gym battles it has been in and it really perform well in the Sinnoh League battles. Gliscor wasn't used that much, but it did win some Gym and League battles, Gible wasn't used in Gyms at all but it did had atleast 2 Pokemon League wins.

              Squirtle was never given an episode about it wanting to evolve or not, and the reason why it didn't evolve because it is the leader of the Squirtle Squad. Another thing the Squirtle squad never evolve at all, they are still in their base forms, Squirtle took the time off from his teammates to help Ash in the Johto League battles.

              DP ruin Brock's character not help it by anymeans, atleast he did gotten redeem in his SM reappearance.

              OS gave the Kanto/Johto teams both good character development and good pokemon battles.

              AG/DP both are so terrible and underrated as heck. This is when the anime went downhill and hasn't been the same since the OS ended.
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              Old 1 Week Ago (10:19 AM). Edited 1 Week Ago by Quiji.
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                I wouldn't count Torterra as having received amazing development per se, because while he was given chances to develop in DP's first three quarters, it all went to crap in the final fourth of the saga and he took three steps back by constantly losing.
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                Old 1 Week Ago (3:31 PM).
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                > DP underrated

                maybe you mean overrated because there are many people who applaud DP for how strong Ash's team was in the end and Ash himself and thus was the reason why there was so much backlash when it came to BW. And that's just the surface of the compliments that DP receives. Of course, I've found many many people who don't like most of the anime people who only like the Original Series, just like those people who hate every Pokemon game other than RBY. That's fine, but I don't see why it's necessary to come here just to complain. It doesn't bring in a healthy discussion or environment, y'know?

                And after all, in the end for every series there are going to be people who happen to have it as their favorite. Mine is Best Wishes, and regardless of the opinions that people have around it the fact that i loved it isn't going to change.
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                Old 1 Week Ago (1:54 AM). Edited 1 Week Ago by Piii.
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                  Quote:
                  Originally Posted by Ash View Post
                  > DP underrated

                  maybe you mean overrated because there are many people who applaud DP for how strong Ash's team was in the end and Ash himself and thus was the reason why there was so much backlash when it came to BW. And that's just the surface of the compliments that DP receives. Of course, I've found many many people who don't like most of the anime people who only like the Original Series, just like those people who hate every Pokemon game other than RBY. That's fine, but I don't see why it's necessary to come here just to complain. It doesn't bring in a healthy discussion or environment, y'know?

                  And after all, in the end for every series there are going to be people who happen to have it as their favorite. Mine is Best Wishes, and regardless of the opinions that people have around it the fact that i loved it isn't going to change.
                  DP is not overrated at all. Not everyone likes DP, there are some who like it and there is some who hate it.

                  DP wasn't as good like the OS and i don't see why anyone would like DP anyways, Ash's DP team was flairly decent, but Infernape was way too overrush and given to much focus, that the other Sinnoh Pokemon could have gotten.

                  BW/XY weren't perfect but they both did improved the anime a little bit, something AG/DP fail to do.

                  XY gave Ash a much stronger and much better team, and Ash improved a whole lot then he did in the DP series.

                  OS is overrated for a good reason. Ash improved and developed in both regions not just one region, and that is what made the OS anime so dang good.
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                  Old 1 Week Ago (2:45 AM). Edited 1 Week Ago by Decibel575.
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                    Quote:
                    Originally Posted by Piii View Post
                    DP is not overrated at all. Not everyone likes DP, there are some who like it and there is some who hate it.

                    DP wasn't as good like the OS and i don't see why anyone would like DP anyways, Ash's DP team was flairly decent, but Infernape was way too overrush and given to much focus, that the other Sinnoh Pokemon could have gotten.

                    BW/XY weren't perfect but they both did improved the anime a little bit, something AG/DP fail to do.

                    XY gave Ash a much stronger and much better team, and Ash improved a whole lot then he did in the DP series.

                    OS is overrated for a good reason. Ash improved and developed in both regions not just one region, and that is what made the OS anime so dang good.
                    OK, hang on. I think you have overrated and underrated mixed around. Overrated is when it get's too much love and hype for no reason, like Pikachu. Underrated is when something deserves more love.

                    Next, the Squirtle squad thing. I guess it was a dub only part, as I remember Jenny said they evolved, but after checking it seems they didn't, I'll give you that.

                    About Infernape being too much of the focus, it was literally the bond that Ash and Paul had, they were connected through both being it's trainer at one point or another. It's development went all the way through into the Sinnoh League. From having it's anxiety/confidence issue, it's trouble with Blaze. It's rivalry with Elekid/Electabuzz/Electivire. I won't say it was rushed, since it went on for a long time, but part of Ash and Paul's rivalry revolved around Infernape a lot.

                    Also, may I ask. Is Gen 1 your favourite Generation? Should we call you a genwunner? Just to see if that is part of your reasoning for liking OS so much. That, or how old are you? Because DP and XY had some themes that would have been hard to understand as children.

                    I personally like Ash a lot in both DP and XY because of how much he had grown, as a trainer, and as a character himself. Ash sort of stayed a stale character all throughout OS, and even somewhat in to AG. He was the same in every episode, never really grew. Whenever Gary was around, he would lose whatever development he had been given up to that point. And his Pokemon rarely evolved.

                    Speaking of OS, you want to say that Infernape was focused on too much? What about Charizard? He got way too much focus once he evolved from Charmander into Charmeleon. Heck, it was getting a lot of attention even into BW. There wasn't even much of a story behind it, he was just an annoyance. Ash lost against Richy because of him. I don't see why he is so popular.

                    Buizel didn't do well in gym battles? Need I remind you about Lucario vs Buizel. Using Swift Swim in rain, the Water Pulse and Aura Sphere? There was Counter Shield in the Fantina battle. Ice-Aqua Jet against Wake,

                    And yes, Torterra did lose a lot of development after evolving again, but it was still more than most of Ash's pokemon at the time. I'm still waiting to see the list of development from Ash's OS team.

                    Brock's breeder path was going nowhere since the very beginning, and it was obvious since the start of Sinnoh that he seemed to be more of a doctor than a breeder. It really did help his character, even through his flirtatious gag with Croagunk, who is still better than Misty.

                    AG did have it's low points yes, especially the infamous Thunder Armour, and it did bring Max into the show.. Even worse than Misty. But they are easily outweighed by the better parts. Ash was on the path of being the mentor he was in AG/DP/XY, and it gave the female companion an actual goal like Ash's gym badges.

                    DP Ash did learn from losses and mistakes, that is exactly what counter shield was developed for. He lost to Fantina. He lost to Paul, and he learned how to keep his style and still beat him. He learned a lot more compared to OS Ash. What tactics did he develop in OS? The only battles I remember him losing, he didn't learn anything from. Just came back and pulled plot armour.

                    And the only reason XY needs to be better than OS is Amourshipping. The best thing to come out of the anime.
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                    Old 1 Week Ago (5:59 AM).
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                      Quote:
                      Originally Posted by Decibel575 View Post
                      OK, hang on. I think you have overrated and underrated mixed around. Overrated is when it get's too much love and hype for no reason, like Pikachu. Underrated is when something deserves more love.
                      I kind of explained that to Piii earlier, but he insisted on that terminology.

                      Quote:
                      About Infernape being too much of the focus, it was literally the bond that Ash and Paul had, they were connected through both being it's trainer at one point or another. It's development went all the way through into the Sinnoh League. From having it's anxiety/confidence issue, it's trouble with Blaze. It's rivalry with Elekid/Electabuzz/Electivire. I won't say it was rushed, since it went on for a long time, but part of Ash and Paul's rivalry revolved around Infernape a lot.
                      Did that really mandate having Pikachu, who if I must remind you is Ash's ACTUAL starter, NOT Infernape, suffer a very humiliating loss against Ursaring, who is an explicit rookie among Paul's team (heck, we actually saw Paul catch him earlier)? I'm sorry, but considering Pikachu outright beat Brandon's Regice all by himself earlier, not to mention Brandon little more than a few episodes earlier practically humiliated Paul, I would have expected Pikachu to outright whup Paul, or at the very LEAST lose against Torterra, the one Pokémon that's the closest to him in terms of experience level. I mean, I get Infernape needed the development, but come on!

                      Quote:
                      Also, may I ask. Is Gen 1 your favourite Generation? Should we call you a genwunner? Just to see if that is part of your reasoning for liking OS so much. That, or how old are you? Because DP and XY had some themes that would have been hard to understand as children.
                      Can't speak for Piii, but as for me, I'm technically not a genwunner since, well, technically, I thought Johto did far better for Ash in terms of overall development than Kanto did (and one of my personal annoyances is lumping Gen 2 together with Gen 1), so those of us who like OS better aren't really Genwunners since it is composed of two generations rather than Gen 1. And as far as age, can't speak for Piii, but I'm 29 right now.

                      Quote:
                      I personally like Ash a lot in both DP and XY because of how much he had grown, as a trainer, and as a character himself. Ash sort of stayed a stale character all throughout OS, and even somewhat in to AG. He was the same in every episode, never really grew. Whenever Gary was around, he would lose whatever development he had been given up to that point. And his Pokemon rarely evolved.
                      If I must be honest, DP, while a bit better than AG, had him regressing a bit (I'm sorry, but when he ends up losing twice to Pokémon that are by that point far below Pikachu's level, not to mention losing to Gym Leaders especially after his win against a Regice, I fail to see how he managed to develop well at all. I mean, yeah, sure, at least his rookies are not humiliating gym leaders any longer, but did they really need to downgrade Ash and Pikachu in the process?). As far as OS, he at least managed to actually WIN Gyms in Johto compared to Kanto where he only actually won half of his badges, so he actually DID develop pretty well there (certainly far more than in AG). And quite frankly, when a rival forces Ash to question his own methods, that just betrays the entire point of a rivalry in the series (in the games, the rival is usually the one who questions their OWN training methods rather than that of the actual main character), which is another reason why I thought Paul wasn't a good rival. Say what you will about Gary, at least HE ultimately realized his training style wasn't worth it and decided to get serious in Johto before retiring, which Paul never really did. I'll give you XY, though: At least there, he managed to come across as a pro. And I'll be honest, OS Ash's development actually exceeds DP and XY's development since, while it is true that Johto, Sinnoh, and Kalos had Ash actually getting a rank increase, it was only the OS that actually SHOWED Ash getting there from start to finish.

                      Quote:
                      Speaking of OS, you want to say that Infernape was focused on too much? What about Charizard? He got way too much focus once he evolved from Charmander into Charmeleon. Heck, it was getting a lot of attention even into BW. There wasn't even much of a story behind it, he was just an annoyance. Ash lost against Richy because of him. I don't see why he is so popular.
                      Eh, I'm not sure I'd say Charizard got a lot of attention, considering it didn't actually start obeying Ash until... what? Orange Islands? And then got chucked off to that training valley?

                      Quote:
                      Buizel didn't do well in gym battles? Need I remind you about Lucario vs Buizel. Using Swift Swim in rain, the Water Pulse and Aura Sphere? There was Counter Shield in the Fantina battle. Ice-Aqua Jet against Wake,
                      Should we really count Maylene? That ended in a tie.

                      Quote:
                      Brock's breeder path was going nowhere since the very beginning, and it was obvious since the start of Sinnoh that he seemed to be more of a doctor than a breeder. It really did help his character, even through his flirtatious gag with Croagunk, who is still better than Misty.
                      Well, I'll agree with you on the breeder goal (until Happiny, the closest he EVER got to advancing in his breeder goal was raising Togepi as an egg). Though even the OS still had some advancements in his goal (case in point, the episode where he met Suzy, that breeder convention, heck, his deducing Stantler's illusion ability in Johto, even). Still a lot more than in AG or DP, where he never got ANY focus at all (barring Happiny, anyway). And I was never really fond of the womanizing gag. At least Kanto offset that rather annoying Quagmire-esque behavior with some redeemable aspects to Brock's character like his role in saving Charmander, for example. But the moment he became a Glenn Quagmire clone, I lost a lot of respect for him (actually, to be honest, I didn't even start regaining my respect for Brock until Sun and Moon).

                      Quote:
                      AG did have it's low points yes, especially the infamous Thunder Armour, and it did bring Max into the show.. Even worse than Misty. But they are easily outweighed by the better parts. Ash was on the path of being the mentor he was in AG/DP/XY, and it gave the female companion an actual goal like Ash's gym badges.
                      Ah, Misty DID have an actual goal. Water Pokémon Master. That WAS her goal (and quite frankly, we WOULD have most likely gotten something a LOT closer to Ash's gym badges had the writers just axed Team Rocket instead of Misty). And quite frankly, the overpromotion of Contests in AG as well as DP and to a lesser extent XY is in fact one reason I wasn't even fond of AG or DP, especially when the stuff they were giving focus on wasn't even relevant to the games' actual story (being little more than a sidequest). Not to mention it came across as disposable anyways, especially when they threw May under the bus in favor of Dawn doing the exact same goal as her (seriously, they can't even bother to replace Ash each region, yet it's okay to have Dawn reuse that goal)? And as far as mentorship, to be honest, I'm not sure he was even all that good of a mentor. Maybe if May and Dawn DID gyms, and then fought each other in the leagues as a bit of a final test, there'd be some signs of mentorship. But as it is, they barely were that. Probably the closest to actual mentorship was when Ash taught May and Dawn how to throw a ball. At least Misty actually gave pointers for battles.

                      Quote:
                      DP Ash did learn from losses and mistakes, that is exactly what counter shield was developed for. He lost to Fantina. He lost to Paul, and he learned how to keep his style and still beat him. He learned a lot more compared to OS Ash. What tactics did he develop in OS? The only battles I remember him losing, he didn't learn anything from. Just came back and pulled plot armour.
                      Eh, he learned some strategies in OS, actually. As an example, Lt. Surge's rematch battle had Ash instead of outfighting him like he did before, just relying on out-speeding Raichu. That actually worked wonders there. Heck, part of the reason he even WENT to Lavender Town was to get a Ghost Pokémon specifically to counter Sabrina (who gave him a LOT of trouble). And how he beat Whitney actually involved the same strategy that he used to stop Team Rocket during one of their attacks.

                      Quote:
                      And the only reason XY needs to be better than OS is Amourshipping. The best thing to come out of the anime.
                      Don't know about that. While Serena's reason beats May's reason for travelling at all, let alone with Ash, I still think Misty had a bit more of a reason to travel with Ash (and I'm a guy who believes in love at first sight being more realistic than so-called "gradual love.").
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                      Old 1 Week Ago (8:19 AM).
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                      I didnt read most of that admittedly (im on a phone and thats a lot of text) and i did notice smth on ash developing more and showing more strength and it reminded me of something that was said in another show:

                      "You cant expect someone at level 40 to grow as fast as someone at level 1"

                      Idk i just feels it kinda fits considering OS was literally level one while AG Ash and DP Ash wasnt. I know already that half of you will disagree with me on this though so please dont quote me and fight me. Thanks!!
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                        I didnt read most of that admittedly (im on a phone and thats a lot of text) and i did notice smth on ash developing more and showing more strength and it reminded me of something that was said in another show:

                        "You cant expect someone at level 40 to grow as fast as someone at level 1"

                        Idk i just feels it kinda fits considering OS was literally level one while AG Ash and DP Ash wasnt. I know already that half of you will disagree with me on this though so please dont quote me and fight me. Thanks!!
                        It was more about how he didn't develop as a character,which your point still stands. In DP and XY, not only did he develop as a trainer, but he also matured as a person. We all saw Ash in Sinnoh, he accepted his losses and kept going, same with XY. When he lost in the finals, he did look dissapointed, but the first thing he says was how exciting it was. Back in OS, he cried, and took it out on his family and friends. That Ash wasn't very good.
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                        Old 6 Days Ago (5:38 PM).
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                          Quote:
                          Originally Posted by weedle_mchairybug View Post
                          Don't know about that. While Serena's reason beats May's reason for travelling at all, let alone with Ash, I still think Misty had a bit more of a reason to travel with Ash (and I'm a guy who believes in love at first sight being more realistic than so-called "gradual love.").
                          OK, her reasoning was ONLY FOR HER BIKE. Serena was the only one who Ash invited to travel with them, the rest tagged along because they wanted to. There is literally nothing for PokeShipping except for a few dubbed lines. Honestly, there have only been three confirmed crushes on Ash, and two weren't even a companion. They were Annabel from AG, Battle Frontier, Macie? Masey? Whatever her name was from the Silver Conference. And Serena. Serena was the only companon he gave a gift to without being told to, the first one he asked on a date, and the kiss. BTW, movies don't really count, as they are non-canon.

                          It seems I went more into shipping here, sorry
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                          Old 6 Days Ago (6:54 PM). Edited 6 Days Ago by Quiji.
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                            BTW, movies don't really count, as they are non-canon.
                            Er, at least half of the movies prior to Movie 20 are canon. The fact that most of those movies had events that were later referenced to in the main anime should make that obvious, and even some of the ones that didn't get implicit in-anime references are canon by common sense.
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                            Whether or not the movies are considered canon are up to the person's discretion, honestly. I like to consider them canon but the next person may not. This thread is tiresome enough without delving into the 'are they canon or not' debate on top of it.
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                            Old 6 Days Ago (7:24 PM). Edited 6 Days Ago by Quiji.
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                              But some movies being canon is not even something subjective that can be argued against. Like just for example off the top of my head, James recognized Lugia in Johto and Ash's aura powers from the 8th movie were shown again in Sinnoh, not to mention how the 1st movie's Mewtwo cameo'ed in like two episodes in Kanto and Movie 16's Mewtwo got a special episode featuring Virgil from Unova, which means that those films at the very least happened in the same universe as the main show. Like, how is that even debatable?
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                                Hmm, I was always told the movies weren't canon. I just thought all of that was just referencing them, that's all. I never really saw all of BW, so I didn't know about that fake mewtwo being in an episode with Virgil. Honestly. the Unova League just sucked in general. I'd say that is the worst era. XD

                                Anyways, while it's fun bringing out my points on why they are good generations, arguing with a kid doesn't appeal to me, so I guess I'll stop now. I'm going to be re watching DP soon as well.

                                Maybe the reason I don't like OS as much as others is due to how much publicity it gets, I don't know.
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                                Old 6 Days Ago (4:12 AM). Edited 6 Days Ago by weedle_mchairybug.
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                                  Quote:
                                  Originally Posted by Decibel575 View Post
                                  It was more about how he didn't develop as a character,which your point still stands. In DP and XY, not only did he develop as a trainer, but he also matured as a person. We all saw Ash in Sinnoh, he accepted his losses and kept going, same with XY. When he lost in the finals, he did look dissapointed, but the first thing he says was how exciting it was. Back in OS, he cried, and took it out on his family and friends. That Ash wasn't very good.
                                  To be fair to Ash, his loss in Indigo wasn't even his fault as he ended up kidnapped by Team Rocket. Still, he did get a LOT better in Johto, which is still OS, and quite frankly, I'd say development is even better if it's actually SHOWN within a series, hence how the OS ultimately was better. Sure, you can argue that DP and XY had better characterization of Ash, but did we actually SEE him develop from start to finish? Don't forget, the show's fairly notorious for barely even remembering past events (sure, it's not as bad as, say, Metal Gear, but still pretty bad with continuity, especially when AG, DP, BW, XY, and SM are technically separate series from OS).

                                  Besides, his Indigo win I could tolerate more than May's little tantrum in the Kanto Grand Festival, where she behaved like a brat despite not only already doing one Grand Festival before then, but actually did BETTER than before. Or for that matter Serena deciding to get a haircut in response to her first loss.

                                  Quote:
                                  Originally Posted by Quiji View Post
                                  But some movies being canon is not even something subjective that can be argued against. Like just for example off the top of my head, James recognized Lugia in Johto and Ash's aura powers from the 8th movie were shown again in Sinnoh, not to mention how the 1st movie's Mewtwo cameo'ed in like two episodes in Kanto and Movie 16's Mewtwo got a special episode featuring Virgil from Unova, which means that those films at the very least happened in the same universe as the main show. Like, how is that even debatable?
                                  Yeah, and that's not even counting Dawn having that Lunar Wing thing from Movie 10 (and by extension making Movie 11 and 12 canon since those were connected to each other), or how Manaphy from Movie 9 got referenced in the Phione episode or, heck, the fact that Drew's hometown was the same place as the setting for Movie 7. In fact, of the movies, there's really only three that can definitively be listed as non-canon (well, one may be ambiguously canon due to it being an outright remake), and all of them are within the Sun and Moon series, due to their explicitly being AU (save for maybe Mewtwo Strikes Back Evolution, which is an up and out remake of the original).

                                  Quote:
                                  Originally Posted by Decibel575 View Post
                                  OK, her reasoning was ONLY FOR HER BIKE. Serena was the only one who Ash invited to travel with them, the rest tagged along because they wanted to. There is literally nothing for PokeShipping except for a few dubbed lines. Honestly, there have only been three confirmed crushes on Ash, and two weren't even a companion. They were Annabel from AG, Battle Frontier, Macie? Masey? Whatever her name was from the Silver Conference. And Serena. Serena was the only companon he gave a gift to without being told to, the first one he asked on a date, and the kiss. BTW, movies don't really count, as they are non-canon.

                                  It seems I went more into shipping here, sorry
                                  Just as an FYI, I don't even give a darn about Pokeshipping. Just because I happen to be someone who is very loyal to Misty doesn't mean I am a Pokeshipper. Heck, I don't even ship in this series. Unless it involves love at first sight and/or both parties actually reciprocate their feelings, I see zero reason to even bother with it. I'm also not an Amourshipper, BTW (and if I must be honest, I thought the ship was poorly done, prone to more shock value with little substance than the time Rabbi Krustofsky died in the Season 26 premiere of The Simpsons, Clown in the Dumps. Like the date episode, for example. Other than the title, they barely even went on a date, and didn't even advance the ship in ANY way. To put it another way, it wasn't all that different from the teasers for Luvdisc is a Most Splendored Thing from Chronicles making it seem as though Tracey and Misty are a couple when in reality they were just acting for Daisy's play. And my biggest problem with the ship is, quite frankly, the whole crush was one-sided. Ash barely treated her as anything more than a friend. At least with Pokeshipping, we got SOME hints at reciprocation between the two beyond friends, even if it's more of the childish denial bit.). And yes, Misty did initially have a desire to just get the bike paid, but it's implied that she might have had something else besides that a few times afterwards, to the extent that she actually briefly forgot about the bike by Cinnabar. Now, if Misty and Ash acted as lovey-dovey to each other as, say, Ariel and Eric from Disney's The Little Mermaid, only then can you count me as a Pokeshipper. As it stands, though, even though I utterly hate that gag involving Brock, I'm actually more likely to ship him with... well, practically every woman he flirted with than I am with any of the main ships (Pokeshipping and Amourshipping included).
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