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Russia and America

Esper

Esper

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So, about all the talk going around about Russia meddling with American government. What do you think happened? Did Russia get involves in the election? Are the connections between Russian government/business with various members of the Trump team credible? If they are, what should be done? Should there be investigations regardless?
 
Hands

Hands

I was saying Boo-urns
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Anything that starves off the war with Russia that the Americans have wanted for decades is a good thing. The world can't survive that nuclear war. Even if Trump and Putin are both awful, disgusting people, their greed might just save us all.
 
gimmepie

gimmepie

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I man, it's pretty clear that Russia was interfering with the election. At this point though I'm not sure what can be done. I think that the best way to go about it really is to take the most passive "retaliation" available and simply remove people who were elected in a falsified/influenced election from office.

Obviously nothing that will provoke violence or anything is acceptable though. The world doesn't need that.
 

Kanzler

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From a geopolitical perspective, what's to lose from fragmenting Russia? It seems like they are a constant thorn in the side of the West, and I'm not too sure if the consequences would be too negative if they were politically neutralized.
 
Hands

Hands

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gimmepie said:
Propaganda, business ties to people involved in campaigns and outright hacking all qualify.
Click to expand...

https://wikileaks.org/cia-france-elections-2012/

Kinda like this? America really has no grounds to complain that Russia might (although there is actually no evidence to back it) have hacked the DNC e mails and revealed their behaviour to the public. America has been ruining elections and countries for decades now.
 
gimmepie

gimmepie

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Hands said:
https://wikileaks.org/cia-france-elections-2012/

Kinda like this? America really has no grounds to complain that Russia might (although there is actually no evidence to back it) have hacked the DNC e mails and revealed their behaviour to the public. America has been ruining elections and countries for decades now.
Click to expand...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the FBI confirm that Russia had indeed tampered with things? Also, the US having done the same thing in the past doesn't suddenly make it okay for other nations to do the same - even to the US. It's not acceptable for any nation to act as such.
 
Hands

Hands

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gimmepie said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the FBI confirm that Russia had indeed tampered with things? Also, the US having done the same thing in the past doesn't suddenly make it okay for other nations to do the same - even to the US. It's not acceptable for any nation to act as such.
Click to expand...

The report filed by the intelligence community gave an inconclusive verdict. The hacker his or her self was thought to be either Russian or Romanian but no solid links to the Russian authorities, services or Govt has been established.
 
gimmepie

gimmepie

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Hands said:
The report filed by the intelligence community gave an inconclusive verdict. The hacker his or her self was thought to be either Russian or Romanian but no solid links to the Russian authorities, services or Govt has been established.
Click to expand...

So essentially, we can be pretty damn sure the Russian's were involved somehow but can't really prove it. This doesn't invalidate the business connections to Trump's campaign/cabinet or the propaganda output from the country.
 
Hands

Hands

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gimmepie said:
So essentially, we can be pretty damn sure the Russian's were involved somehow but can't really prove it. This doesn't invalidate the business connections to Trump's campaign/cabinet or the propaganda output from the country.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure how we can be sure the Russian govt was involved simply because the hacker was thought to be a Russian or Romanian native. That's an insane jump to make. When a Frenchman commits a crime in Britain we don't use that as evidence that the French Govt is an organised Crime gang orchestrating crime on British shores.
 
gimmepie

gimmepie

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Hands said:
I'm not sure how we can be sure the Russian govt was involved simply because the hacker was thought to be a Russian or Romanian native. That's an insane jump to make. When a Frenchman commits a crime in Britain we don't use that as evidence that the French Govt is an organised Crime gang orchestrating crime on British shores.
Click to expand...

Would you accept "considering the nature of the attack, there is a notable increase the probability that Russia tampered with the election"?
 
Hands

Hands

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gimmepie said:
Would you accept "considering the nature of the attack, there is a notable increase the probability that Russia tampered with the election"?
Click to expand...

Well possibly, but there's little to no serious evidence of this. Given the amount of Electoral interference the Americans have ran this past decade you'd think they'd be able to easily prove this if it was the case.
 

Kanzler

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I dunno, Russia is just too darn edgy regarding the US and Europe for my liking. They interfere more than they cooperate.
 
Esper

Esper

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Does anyone think that that the Trump team actively sought help from Russia during the election? The different ties (meetings and such) between Trump's people and various Russian officials, pro-Russian Ukrainians, and Russian business interests is pretty well known now, right. Manafort, Page, Flynn, Kushner, Sessions, others I'm probably forgetting.

I don't want to jump to conspiracy theories, but the theory which says that Putin and co. meddled so that the US would lift sanctions over Ukraine and allow an Exxon deal to go through is pretty hard to ignore when the top US diplomat is the former Exxon CEO, the Trump team specifically asked for the Republican party platform to change to a softer stance on Russia, and basically every day there is more evidence backing up the Buzzfeed pee-pee papers.
 

Grinny55

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Hands said:
Anything that starves off the war with Russia that the Americans have wanted for decades is a good thing. The world can't survive that nuclear war. Even if Trump and Putin are both awful, disgusting people, their greed might just save us all.
Click to expand...

completely agree. Nuclear war is the worst thing that could happen. I found info at https://ecotestgroup.com/press/blog/different-uses-applications-radiation-portal-monitors/ that after collapse of the Soviet Union special Radiation Portal Monitors devices were implemented to prevent the ingredients used to make destructive weapons from falling into the wrong hands. I think that nowadays the safety of the whole world depends on such devices.
 
Hands

Hands

I was saying Boo-urns
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Esper said:
Does anyone think that that the Trump team actively sought help from Russia during the election? The different ties (meetings and such) between Trump's people and various Russian officials, pro-Russian Ukrainians, and Russian business interests is pretty well known now, right. Manafort, Page, Flynn, Kushner, Sessions, others I'm probably forgetting.

I don't want to jump to conspiracy theories, but the theory which says that Putin and co. meddled so that the US would lift sanctions over Ukraine and allow an Exxon deal to go through is pretty hard to ignore when the top US diplomat is the former Exxon CEO, the Trump team specifically asked for the Republican party platform to change to a softer stance on Russia, and basically every day there is more evidence backing up the Buzzfeed pee-pee papers.
Click to expand...

Putin's people and Trump's people almost certainly worked out some kind of beneficial situation. Putin probably pushed for a drop of sanctions and for a non aggressor pact and in return offered Trump some kind of financial or resource based trade off. Perhaps gas or coal or something.
 
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