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What do you think of the way Season 1 (Indigo) ended?

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  #1    
Old January 8th, 2018 (12:43 PM).
withheld withheld is offline
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    Whether it'd have been good for Ash to have won that league is
    debatable. Personally, i'd have loved it. It wouldn't have to mean
    the end of the series. Ash could have won the league and still
    continued his journey.
    I understand though that, for Ash to have won that league, his
    character should have been written differently since the beginning
    of the series. Ash was meant to be a goofy, kinda lazy (i mean how
    many times did you see him actually train his pokemon?) trainer
    that won his battles with plot power and love/friendship bs. He
    was a more shiny version of Joey Wheeler (Yugioh). So, i agree that
    it'd have been unfair and exasperating for such a guy to win a
    league first try.
    What annoyed me though was the way he was disqualified at his
    first tournament (his pokemon getting fatigued before the match
    and Charizard's disobedience sealing his fate in the league). I mean,
    if the purpose of the creators was to show Ash was not ready to go
    all the way yet, him losing in such a way defeats that purpose, it
    makes the watchers wonder 'What if Ash hadn't been kidnapped
    that day?''.
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      #2    
    Old January 8th, 2018 (5:05 PM). Edited January 8th, 2018 by Kuzehiko.
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    Kuzehiko Kuzehiko is offline
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      It ended well.
      Ash couldn't win the Pokemon league in his first attempt. Losing means he'll have to start over so he'll be able to develop as a trainer and as a character. He wasn't enough experienced and he lacked skills on battle so I find it alright he's lost.

      What I find dumb is the way he was eliminated, it was a joke. Ash shouldn't have sent Charizard into battle. On the other hand the writers should've made Ash lose on a 3vs3 battle fair and square not making him lose because one of his Pokemon disobeys him.
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        #3    
      Old January 8th, 2018 (6:58 PM).
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      strangerhypno strangerhypno is offline
         
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        It was a fair ending. Ash's character growth was still incomplete and he didn't train his pokemon much and relied on luck and the loyalty of his pokemon to get through his Kanto journey.

        Don't know why Ash used Charizard, couldn't he have used Bulbasaur instead? The referee should be fired, the sleep = KO thing was stupid. They also should of postponed the match considering Ash wasn't ready and had to deal with criminals.

        But in the end Ash losing was best for him cause he wasn't ready (unlike now where he should be but is still 10 and losing). How would he have won the Indigo League when he made decisions like using unreliable pokemon like Charizard and untrained pokemon like Krabby to win some battles? Losing would help him learn from his mistakes.

        Also it's funny that Ash got further than Gary.
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          #4    
        Old January 10th, 2018 (8:55 AM).
        jjc927 jjc927 is offline
           
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          I absolutely think he should not have won because he was not ready to go all the way and it would've felt cheap if he won the whole thing, but it did feel a little empty that he lost because Charizard wouldn't battle.
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            #5    
          Old January 10th, 2018 (1:08 PM).
          weedle_mchairybug weedle_mchairybug is online now
             
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            Quote:
            Originally Posted by strangerhypno View Post
            It was a fair ending. Ash's character growth was still incomplete and he didn't train his pokemon much and relied on luck and the loyalty of his pokemon to get through his Kanto journey.

            Don't know why Ash used Charizard, couldn't he have used Bulbasaur instead? The referee should be fired, the sleep = KO thing was stupid. They also should of postponed the match considering Ash wasn't ready and had to deal with criminals.

            But in the end Ash losing was best for him cause he wasn't ready (unlike now where he should be but is still 10 and losing). How would he have won the Indigo League when he made decisions like using unreliable pokemon like Charizard and untrained pokemon like Krabby to win some battles? Losing would help him learn from his mistakes.

            Also it's funny that Ash got further than Gary.
            Bulbasaur and Pidgeotto were left exhausted due to Ash's escape from Team Rocket after they abducted him. And thanks to those idiotic officials' insistence on commencing the match immediately, Ash wasn't even allowed time to at least swap out Pokémon. So in other words, Ash got stuck with Charizard.

            So far as the overall topic, all I can say is that ultimately, it was integral to Ash's development, even if the loss itself was half-baked (I'd personally prefer a fair loss). And since the Original Series at least allowed for us to actually visibly track Ash's progress between two regions rather than just one region with his past attempts being incidental dialogue at most, it certainly worked out better than with later regions. Besides, even Indigo's loss was a LOT better than his loss in Best Wishes. At least Ash lost to someone who knew what he was doing, unlike in BW, where Ash lost to someone so idiotic he made even Best Wishes Ash seem smart by comparison (and BW Ash was a massive idiot, even by his usual standards, so it says a lot when that version of Ash comes across as a genius compared to Cameron).
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              #6    
            Old January 10th, 2018 (1:19 PM).
            SH60 SH60 is offline
               
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              I think it would had been a lot better if Ash lost in a fair battle.
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                #7    
              Old January 11th, 2018 (7:04 AM). Edited January 11th, 2018 by VisionofMilotic.
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              VisionofMilotic VisionofMilotic is offline
                 
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                When I first saw the episode I did not like it because it seemed so unfair. Ash was at such a disadvantage, having been kidnapped and left with exhausted Pokemon. Richie's team was a joke that could be easily cut to pieces, his only fully-evolved Pokemon being a butterfree that even Pikachu on his last leg was able to push over.

                Yet nowadays that the emotional sting has been taken away I think that it was a good ending for the season. It was not a happy ending but it was a realistic one, and I think it was also a fair loss.

                Whether Ash should have even been in the Pokemon league that year at all is debatable. Half of his gym battles did not get properly finished, some of them he might have been able to pull off like Misty or Erika maybe, others he would not have probably gotten through under normal circumstances I.e Giovanni and Sabrina. Ash had not just wins, but quite a bit of good luck and other qualities that made him heroic that point. Had Ash not received any special treatment that year he would not even have gotten to be a Pokemon trainer because he overslept during the starter giveaway.

                It was really unfortunate that this time he lost a battle that should have been his, but it was time for Ash's luck to run out. He still didn't do so bad. Out of hundreds of people, he was in the top 20.

                I have also come to accept that even though he was at a disadvantage there was still a window of opporunity for Ash to win. He did not lose just because of Team Rocket, Ash also made some choices that contributed to him being in a not good situation. See below for an even bigger wall of text.


                Spoiler:

                Ash knew what Ritchie's team was but never made use of that knowledge. The most logical matchup was lead with Pikachu's electricity against the flying type Butterfree. Squirtle should have been withheld as the check to Charmander instead of his lead Pokemon, leaving Bulbasaur around to resist Richie's Pikachu.

                Also Ash never attempted to train his Charizard at any point in the first season. As Oak pointed out when Ash was sulking if Ash had put some prior work into getting this Pokemon under control then this would never have happened.

                Also nobody forced him to test Charizard out right in the middle of the most important battle he had ever been in. He had other healthy Pokemon on him. Why not send Muk? The pokemon that had just won the very last match for Ash on the grass field. He was a fully-evolved Pokemon that was bigger, bulkier and harder-hitting than anything on Richie's team and had no type disadvantage in this match.

                Ash had no excuse to have Charizard anywhere other than in a pcbox during the Pokemon league. Since he was unruly then that spot needed to go to Kingler or Tauros full-time, two very effective pokemon. Because you only can have 6 Pokemon why was he ever carrying a Pokemon that he could not use? His team should have been rearranged a long time ago for something as important as the pokemon league.

                While I was disappointed for Ash and so mad I switched off the TV first time I saw it, in hindsight now that I have seen season 1 a few more times while he has my sympathies his flaws are more obvious to me now. He ultimately was not ready to be a champion and even needs to bear some responsiblity for that loss.

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                  #8    
                Old January 11th, 2018 (8:27 AM). Edited January 11th, 2018 by weedle_mchairybug.
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                  Quote:
                  Originally Posted by VisionofMilotic View Post
                  When I first saw the episode I did not like it because it seemed so unfair. Ash was at such a disadvantage, having been kidnapped and left with exhausted Pokemon. Richie's team was a joke that could be easily cut to pieces, his only fully-evolved Pokemon being a butterfree that even Pikachu on his last leg was able to push over.

                  Yet nowadays that the emotional sting has been taken away I think that it was a good ending for the season. It was not a happy ending but it was a realistic one, and I think it was also a fair loss.

                  Whether Ash should have even been in the Pokemon league that year at all is debatable. Half of his gym battles did not get properly finished. He came close in some cases and in others showed another good quality like helping out the gym leader and their Pokemon. However, he probably would not have enough badges to get in if he had been held to the same standards that other trainers had to meet. Would he have beaten Giovanni or Sabrina under normal circumstances? Probably not, I don't think he would even beaten Brock without the sprinkle system malfunctioning.

                  Had Ash not received any special treatment that year he would not even have gotten to be a Pokemon trainer because he overslept during the starter giveaway.

                  It was really unfortunate that this time he lost a battle that should have been his, but it was time for Ash's luck to run out. He still didn't do so bad. Out of hundreds of people, he was in the top 20.

                  I have also come to accept that even though he was at a disadvantage there was still a window of opporunity for Ash to win. Not everything was Team Rocket's fault, he lost because he did not make the best decisions under pressure. Because it took up too much space you can read below why I think he still could have pulled off a win.

                  Spoiler:

                  Ash knew what Ritchie's team was but never made use of that knowledge. The most logical matchup was lead with Pikachu's electricity against the flying type Butterfree. Squirtle should have been withheld as the check to Charmander instead of his lead Pokemon, leaving Bulbasaur around to resist Richie's Pikachu.


                  Also Ash never attempted to train his Charizard at any point in the first season. As Oak pointed out when Ash was sulking if Ash had put some prior work into getting this Pokemon under control than this would never have happened.

                  What is worse is that he did not even have to use Charizard if he did not want to. He made that call-- nobody forced him to test Charizard out right in the middle of the most important battle he had ever been in. He had other healthy Pokemon on him. Why not send Muk? The pokemon that had just won the very last match for Ash on the grass field. He was a fully-evolved Pokemon that was bigger, bulkier and harder-hitting than anything on Richie's team and had no type disadvantage in this match. Muk was not fatigued from any fighting beforehand. Ash could not see all of the options.

                  Ash had no excuse to have Charizard anywhere other than in a pcbox during the Pokemon league. Since he was unruly then that spot needed to go to Kingler or Tauros full-time. Because you only can have 6 Pokemon why was he ever carrying a Pokemon that he could not use? His team should have been rearranged a long time ago for something as important as the pokemon league.

                  While I was disappointed for Ash and so mad I switched off the TV first time I saw it, in hindsight now that I have seen season 1 a few more times while he has my sympathies his flaws are more obvious to me now. He ultimately was not ready to be a champion and even needs to bear some responsiblity for that loss.

                  Pretty much agreed for the most part. At the very least, he should have actually modified his team so that he'd not have to rely on Charizard beforehand.

                  If there's only one thing I can disagree with, it's the whole "it's not a happy ending, but a realistic one." Not that I disagree that it's realistic, don't get me wrong, but I just disagree with the notion that happy endings are unrealistic or that sad endings are somehow realistic. I can name a few sad endings that actually are very unrealistic (so much so that even Disney-style happy endings are more realistic than them), like the ending to The Matrix Revolutions, or the ending to Metal Gear Solid 4, even (heck, let's not forget the infamous finale for Lost).
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                    #9    
                  Old January 11th, 2018 (8:54 AM).
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                    Quote:
                    Originally Posted by weedle_mchairybug View Post
                    Pretty much agreed for the most part. At the very least, he should have actually modified his team so that he'd not have to rely on Charizard beforehand.

                    If there's only one thing I can disagree with, it's the whole "it's not a happy ending, but a realistic one." Not that I disagree that it's realistic, don't get me wrong, but I just disagree with the notion that happy endings are unrealistic or that sad endings are somehow realistic. I can name a few sad endings that actually are very unrealistic (so much so that even Disney-style happy endings are more realistic than them), like the ending to The Matrix Revolutions, or the ending to Metal Gear Solid 4, even (heck, let's not forget the infamous finale for Lost).
                    You are totally right. I decided to go back and edit my post because first its as long as War and Peace, second because as you aptly pointed out the sad ending can sometimes be unrealistic, such as the case of all of the movies and shows you named, Matrix revolutions stands out in partcular to me. Game of Thrones in later seasons has also been guilty of tragic endings that begin to not even make sense.
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                      #10    
                    Old January 11th, 2018 (9:00 AM).
                    jjc927 jjc927 is offline
                       
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                      Given that Charizard's disobedience became a major theme after he evolved it did make some sense for Ash to lose because he decided to use him and he declined to battle. Ash used him out of desperation and it backfired. But yes, It made the way he lost feel cheap because it could've been a more drawn out battle.
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                        #11    
                      Old January 11th, 2018 (7:36 PM). Edited January 11th, 2018 by SH60.
                      SH60 SH60 is offline
                         
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                        Well all the pokemon Ash had on him (sans Charizard) where tired from running from TF over and over on there way to the match so there's that. And Charizard was at that point was his strongest pokemon so it would make sense for Ash to have him, but I think that Charizard would have to take some of the blame for that lost.
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