The F Word

Feminism.

What word were you thinking of?

Lots of people have varying ideas of what the word actually means. A dictionary definition calls feminism "the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes," but of course a dictionary definition is only the beginning to understanding such a complex idea.

How do you feel about "political, economic, and social equality of the sexes" or equality in general? Do you consider yourself a feminist? Do you think feminism "accomplished" its goals and is no longer needed? Just talk about this (respectfully!)

For me Feminism is on a similar scale to Racism.
I don't have a strong view for or against the views but I do get rather annoyed when people try to use it as a defense.
You know, the kind of people that while your picking teams for sports or games or whatever and you pick a guy instead of the one last girls they say "You only picked him over me because I'm a women!" when its clear that the guy is the better player of the two choices.
Not sure if that made any sense.

Anyway.
I think people go overboard with it. In some cases, it's understandable- but I think people need to stop being butthurt over stupid stuff.

Then again, I've never paid much (if any) attention to the matter. So my opinion isn't worth much. I personally find the jokes and stereotypes directed at females to be stupid or even amusing- certainly not offensive.

Okay, I know i'm posting a youtube video in reply to this, (one with 6,000,000 views no less) but I think the dude makes some good points.



Have at me then Dcc, but I implore you to consider this.

Interesting video. I wonder, what does it imply when the it claims that equality is guys treating girls like men? Also, counter to what the video says, anyone can be a feminist. It's not just for girls.

Scarf said:

Feminism.

What word were you thinking of?

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Food. I was thinking food.

Anyway, I have no problem with that definition. Political, economic, and social rights. Encompasses a bunch of stuff that makes sense. Contract law, owning property, voting, autonomy, safety, social roles, etc. All makes sense; all things should be equal.

The thing to note though is that those are all societal concepts. In law, we should be equal. Biologically they are not, on average. Should not lead to an assumption of superiority though.

As with a lot of social things, I don't mind it, may be even support it (and I do), just don't get too in my face about it or you'll annoy me. I had super feminist (super every social issue, really) teacher in high school who would go overboard and rewrite "human" to take out the "man" part out of it. I think she came up with "humyn" or something like that.

Or like some extreme PETA-types who almost seem to think an animal life is more important than a human life, I can't stand people who place one gender as being superior or more important to another. I also had a teacher in elementary school who used "smart boy" as an example of an oxymoron. Didn't like her either XD

EDIT: On the equal pay issue, I think it is a little more complex than it appears on the surface. Equal pay for equal work really applies in an environment with equal work. Something more labour or service oriented. When you look at middle managers, say. Several studies recently have shown that women tend not to ask for money. When you land a job or are being promoted, there's usually some negotiation involved. And apparently (say the studies), women tend to aim lower than men and then are also more complacent and less likely to ask for a raise than men. If that's true (and it may be, in part. I'd say the initial salary they're offered in the first place is probably lower to start with), how do you solve that?

Feminism's goals have been long accomplished, yet there are still people claiming it didn't. Equality is never going to happen, let's face the fact that we are never going to treat both genders the same. I do, though, think that gender shouldn't play a role in professional situations such as court. Even though they aren't allowed to discriminate against a certain gender,race, etc., females get easier punishments than males.

*facedesk*

I seen this thread, wrote out a long comment about it and even threw in a wiki page and a couple other assorted links related to the usage of the word ****.

To what Skinwalker said. The thing about feminism is that it's not about equality - Afterall, you never see feminist's protesting against the biased treatment they receive in the courts.

Anyway the issue with womens vs mens pay is that it's not taking account of seperate jobs - It's just comparing the average women are paid and the average men are paid, overall, not job to job. And of course it's going to be skewed in mens favor when its calculated like this - They are the ones working in higher risk, and thus higher pay, environments.

I never confirmed this but I heard a story about a mining company. Femists supposedly raised hell about men getting paid more on average then women in the company. The owner outsourced secretarial and other bookkeeping work - All of which was done by women - and gave the women jobs in the mines. As the story goes, all the women quit when they heard that they were to begin working in the mines.

Anyway, as usual, I end this post with a picture.

I was thinking more of swearing when it was the "F word."
Well played Scarf.

I agree with Mr X.
Gender Equality isn't going to happen. Heterosexual males are considered the lowest of priority when it comes to "issues of equality in society."
Women are treated as "special" because it is the backfire from male chauvinism that was considered normal back in the 1950s.
As there has always been hostility such as racism, sexism, anti homosexual groups they are considered that they need protecting from "savage heterosexual masculine thugs."
Yes men are developed to be fighters and protectors. It gives us physical advantages over women, but it doesn't mean we are better than them. Our differences should not separate us nor should it allow either to be given special treatment.
If a woman steps into a male environment, then she should not expect special treatment, neither should if a male steps into a female environment.
Even in nature there are clear signs of males being the protectors or hunters of the territory whilst the females may hunt or look after the babies.
It would be nice if everyone could be free from hate and abuse and have even rights when it comes to voting, employment, education etc.
There are some women that are very happy being a housewife and looking after their children whilst their husband goes out to work. Same as if a husband stays at home looking after the children whilst the woman goes out to work. But of course society may think it's odd that the man isn't "being the career man and earning the money."

I've heard the saying "It's only sexist when a man does it."
There is a difference between wanting women to be treated fairly and equally rather than trying to belittle the working man. A lot of these hardcore feminists are essentially man haters that want women to rule the world and be treated superior to these men who are "Chauvinist pigs."

Anyone regardless of race,age,gender,sexual preference,religious preference can be treated unfairly and in reality we should be looking at improving how to help one another. All of these groups which spew hate should learn to put their pitch forks down, this isn't medieval times shouting "Burn the witch" is going to get you anywhere.

I think feminism has accomplished all it will, really. Women have the same rights as men by and large and while they get treated differently (both worse and better) than men on occasion, that swings both ways. Really feminism as a concept is quite outdated - gender equality as a whole is what people should be putting their time into (but that's never going to come to fruition so there's not really any point anyway). The sexes get treated differently and I don't think anyone can do anything about that. Giving women rights is incredibly easy in comparison to changing established gender norms buried deep in society's collective consciousness.

TRIFORCE89 said:

EDIT: On the equal pay issue, I think it is a little more complex than it appears on the surface. Equal pay for equal work really applies in an environment with equal work. Something more labour or service oriented. When you look at middle managers, say. Several studies recently have shown that women tend not to ask for money. When you land a job or are being promoted, there's usually some negotiation involved. And apparently (say the studies), women tend to aim lower than men and then are also more complacent and less likely to ask for a raise than men. If that's true (and it may be, in part. I'd say the initial salary they're offered in the first place is probably lower to start with), how do you solve that?

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I don't know how to solve that definitively, but I would think that if in general if attitudes were a little different people wouldn't assume that women are less qualified and women would be less likely ask for less and employers would be less likely to offer lower wages.

Mr. X said:

Anyway the issue with womens vs mens pay is that it's not taking account of seperate jobs - It's just comparing the average women are paid and the average men are paid, overall, not job to job. And of course it's going to be skewed in mens favor when its calculated like this - They are the ones working in higher risk, and thus higher pay, environments.

I never confirmed this but I heard a story about a mining company. Femists supposedly raised hell about men getting paid more on average then women in the company. The owner outsourced secretarial and other bookkeeping work - All of which was done by women - and gave the women jobs in the mines. As the story goes, all the women quit when they heard that they were to begin working in the mines.

Anyway, as usual, I end this post with a picture.

Spoiler:

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I'm curious if this image is how you personally view things or if it's how you think someone else views things.

Also, the anecdote about the mine work seems like an urban legend. No company would make office staff work in a mine.

Skinwalker213 said:

Feminism's goals have been long accomplished, yet there are still people claiming it didn't. Equality is never going to happen, let's face the fact that we are never going to treat both genders the same. I do, though, think that gender shouldn't play a role in professional situations such as court. Even though they aren't allowed to discriminate against a certain gender,race, etc., females get easier punishments than males.

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Even if women receive more lenient punishments in court, that is only one aspect of society. Women still make less money, are much more likely to be victims of domestic abuse, and so on. Certainly we should make the courts, which is something we have more control over, fair and equal, but you'll excuse me if it seems to me a little unfair of you to point out one of the few instances where women seem to have it better and not address any of the many instances where the reverse is true.

François said:

I think feminism has accomplished all it will, really. Women have the same rights as men by and large and while they get treated differently (both worse and better) than men on occasion, that swings both ways. Really feminism as a concept is quite outdated - gender equality as a whole is what people should be putting their time into (but that's never going to come to fruition so there's not really any point anyway). The sexes get treated differently and I don't think anyone can do anything about that. Giving women rights is incredibly easy in comparison to changing established gender norms buried deep in society's collective consciousness.

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Reading these responses makes me really sad because you think equality isn't possible and there's no point in trying to attain it (and that you think that feminism isn't about gender equality in the first place makes me extra sad). I prefer to think that there is every possibility of equality.

I know we all come from different places, some more equal than others, and that may color how equal we think the world is, but would anyone say that feminism has already finished its job when you think about places like Afghanistan where Malala Yousafzai was shot in the head because she advocated for girls to go to school? Or that in a developed country like the USA people are trying to curtail the use of contraception?

Also, just going to drop this chart here:



It's from an article that goes into the finer points of pay (un)equality by different types of work.

Moving them from office work to the mines was because of the outsourcing - It was meant to cover the companies ass, to prevent the women from filing wrongful termination lawsuits since they lost their jobs as a result of the outcries against lower pay. It's been a while since I read this so it probably is a urban legend - But given the lack of women in these kinds of jobs, I wouldn't surprised if their was some truth in it.

The picture was meant to show the ideals of feminism - supposedly about equality - and how they applied to certain real world situations. It points out the flaws with the main reasons that feminism supposedly exists - Men treating women as sex objects or punching bags - and shows that, for all of feminisms cries of equality, in these cases the odds are stacked in favor of women.

As for the unequal pay, I've seen a example of in - at least, somewhat. Back in middle school when job shadowing I shadowed a couple people in the IT field. I asked both about their pay and the male did get paid more, about 15% (Or 20%. It's been a while so I don't remember the exact amount.). Seems like clear cut inequality right? Not really. He was being paid more because he had additional qualifications that she didn't - Both had degrees in computer sciences but he had chosen to get Comptia certifications as well. While they held the same job, he was being paid more since he was, because of the additional qualifications, worth more.

This is my main issue with most of the pay comparisons - Most don't take into account their jobs, instead just a direct comparison of their pay. The few that do account for their jobs don't take into account the persons qualifications or experience.

Edit - http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...rn-feminism-is-illogical-unnecessary-and-evil

I don't agree with the entirety of this - Mainly feminism being unnecessary. In a lot of countries it is unnecessary but for certain countries in the middle east, or really any primarily Islamic country, it's necessary. Basically, to feminists in the US I'd say they are idiots. To feminists in, say, Iran I'd tell them to keep on fighting.

Edit again - Actually, scratch that. I'd support some feminist ideals in the US - mainly their right to abortions.

Mr. X said:

Moving them from office work to the mines was because of the outsourcing - It was meant to cover the companies ass, to prevent the women from filing wrongful termination lawsuits since they lost their jobs as a result of the outcries against lower pay. It's been a while since I read this so it probably is a urban legend - But given the lack of women in these kinds of jobs, I wouldn't surprised if their was some truth in it.

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That story then seems more like a case of what you just said - wrongful termination - rather than pay inequality. Now that I'm thinking about it more, I think mining might be one of those rare fields in which there is more equality of pay though. I might be confusing that with something else though.

Mr. X said:

The picture was meant to show the ideals of feminism - supposedly about equality - and how they applied to certain real world situations. It points out the flaws with the main reasons that feminism supposedly exists - Men treating women as sex objects or punching bags - and shows that, for all of feminisms cries of equality, in these cases the odds are stacked in favor of women.

Click to expand...

That picture then looks like a strawman depiction of feminists, that is, a fake one. Not saying that instances like those don't happen, but that is not an ideal situation according to a feminist. We want things to be fair.

That said, there are inequalities in society and a woman looking at a man isn't always the same as a man looking at a woman. It can be better or worse depending on where you are. You know, like if you had a room full of men looking at a woman it wouldn't be the same as if a room full of women were looking at a man. That's not how we want things to be, but it is a reality of social attitudes and so on.

Mr. X said:

As for the unequal pay, I've seen a example of in - at least, somewhat. Back in middle school when job shadowing I shadowed a couple people in the IT field. I asked both about their pay and the male did get paid more, about 15% (Or 20%. It's been a while so I don't remember the exact amount.). Seems like clear cut inequality right? Not really. He was being paid more because he had additional qualifications that she didn't - Both had degrees in computer sciences but he had chosen to get Comptia certifications as well. While they held the same job, he was being paid more since he was, because of the additional qualifications, worth more.

This is my main issue with most of the pay comparisons - Most don't take into account their jobs, instead just a direct comparison of their pay. The few that do account for their jobs don't take into account the persons qualifications or experience.

Click to expand...

While having two people with different skill sets obviously means that one is a more desirable employee in terms of hiring or promoting them, when you have two people doing the same job, having the same responsibilities, it shouldn't matter if one of them can also do a bunch of things unrelated to the job. Sure, promote the one with extra skills if the new job would be better served, but they should get paid the same. Equal pay for equal work, as they say.

Edit: that article you added has a big flaw in that its argument is that because biologically men and women are different we can't or don't want the same things and therefore we can't compare the two. It tries to say that men making more money can't be used as evidence of inequality any more than woman having more shoes can - which is just silly because your income is a real big factor on how equal you are. Much more than shoe ownership is.

Scarf said:

That story then seems more like a case of what you just said - wrongful termination - rather than pay inequality. Now that I'm thinking about it more, I think mining might be one of those rare fields in which there is more equality of pay though. I might be confusing that with something else though.

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Yes and no - Without them being given the option of a higher paid job in the company it would be. While it backed them to a wall - Either accept this higher paying job or leave - they weren't really terminated since none of them were actually fired. They refused the new jobs - The company didn't fire them.

That picture then looks like a strawman depiction of feminists, that is, a fake one. Not saying that instances like those don't happen, but that is not an ideal situation according to a feminist. We want things to be fair.

That said, there are inequalities in society and a woman looking at a man isn't always the same as a man looking at a woman. It can be better or worse depending on where you are. You know, like if you had a room full of men looking at a woman it wouldn't be the same as if a room full of women were looking at a man. That's not how we want things to be, but it is a reality of social attitudes and so on.

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It's not really a strawman - Their are a lot of cases proving certain frames right. The picture is more pointed at the extremes of feminism rather then mainstream feminism though.

While having two people with different skill sets obviously means that one is a more desirable employee in terms of hiring or promoting them, when you have two people doing the same job, having the same responsibilities, it shouldn't matter if one of them can also do a bunch of things unrelated to the job. Sure, promote the one with extra skills if the new job would be better served, but they should get paid the same. Equal pay for equal work, as they say.

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But this case wasn't about things unrelated to the job - These were additional qualifications related to the job. I suppose this case isn't really the best example though - It was the companies policy to pay more to employee's that had these certifications.

Scarf said:

Reading these responses makes me really sad because you think equality isn't possible and there's no point in trying to attain it (and that you think that feminism isn't about gender equality in the first place makes me extra sad). I prefer to think that there is every possibility of equality.

I know we all come from different places, some more equal than others, and that may color how equal we think the world is, but would anyone say that feminism has already finished its job when you think about places like Afghanistan where Malala Yousafzai was shot in the head because she advocated for girls to go to school? Or that in a developed country like the USA people are trying to curtail the use of contraception?

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I'm sorry, I should have made my post more clear. Feminism is about women being treated the same as men, it's viewed specifically through a female lens. Actual gender quality needs to change not only how men view women but how women view men (and how women view women and men view men). If you want gender equality you need the entire world to abandon its prejudices and that's simply never going to happen. You can convince heterosexuals that not all gay men are STD-ridden sex addicts who're going to try and get every straight man they see into bed but convincing people that men don't need to be stoic? That women don't need to be pretty and unopinionated? I don't see it.

And as for "feminism has done its job", I of course meant in the most developed parts of the world. Obviously in regions where women don't have equal rights it has its place.

Scarf said:

Edit: that article you added has a big flaw in that its argument is that because biologically men and women are different we can't or don't want the same things and therefore we can't compare the two. It tries to say that men making more money can't be used as evidence of inequality any more than woman having more shoes can - which is just silly because your income is a real big factor on how equal you are. Much more than shoe ownership is.

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The basis behind it is that were trying to make something equal, in every case, which can't be equal - Males and females are different and thus will have different desires. While their are certain things we can be equal in, despite biological differences, their are also certain things where, due to biological differences, we will never be equal in.

The point behind the shoes statement is simple - You can't base equality on just one variable. Extended, it's about differences in what we, as individual people, want. Case in point, some want money, some want shoes. Relating to pay, if money is your goal then your going to do whatever you can in order to get that money. If shoes are your goal, then your going to do just good enough job to keep affording new ones.

The most important point, imo, to that article though is that, despite women becoming more and more equal in pay to men, they are also becoming more and more unhappy with their lives - Feminism doesn't account for the womans happiness, just the perceived place in society women should play. And really, a persons happiness is whats really important. If money makes a person happy, great. Go make some. If shoes makes a person happy, fine. Go buy some. If 'insert X here' makes you happy, then make obtaining that your goal.

Scarf said:

While having two people with different skill sets obviously means that one is a more desirable employee in terms of hiring or promoting them, when you have two people doing the same job, having the same responsibilities, it shouldn't matter if one of them can also do a bunch of things unrelated to the job. Sure, promote the one with extra skills if the new job would be better served, but they should get paid the same. Equal pay for equal work, as they say.

Click to expand...

Well, no. That's not correct because that's not just a male vs female thing. If two guys were there doing the same job, but one was more educated or qualified he would still be paid more. I'd have no problem if the woman was being paid more because she was more qualified or education

More relevant education (and in this case, specific certifications that can be applied to his field and the job) makes you a stronger candidate and more qualified for that job and your career overall. Why shouldn't you be rewarded for that?

Equal pay or equal work only really makes sense if you're working at McDonald's or something very "assembly line" like that.

Man or Woman, if you can't handle heavy lifting, you shouldn't have a job that requires heavy lifting.

Scarf said:

Women still make less money, are much more likely to be victims of domestic abuse, and so on.

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I don't think you can really change the domestic abuse ratio. Absolutely we should try to educate people and change their perceptions in order to reduce the rate. But, men and women will never be equally likely victims because men are generally stronger. That's why four year-old don't kidnap adults. When one participant is able to overpower the other or be more threatening, it isn't a fair fight. No matter how much work we may do to fix the problem, women will always be the more likely victim of abuse than men.

Not saying we shouldn't try, because we should. But if the goal is utopia, that is never going to happen