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Old January 10th, 2019 (11:04 PM).
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    I was looking back at AG/DP anime and i can't see one good thing that did come out of that terrible era. Kanto and Johto both developed the characters perfectly and their Pokemon teams, this was the last good era of the anime until Hoenn and Sinnoh came along and ruin the characters and this once great tv show.
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    Old January 11th, 2019 (5:55 PM).
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      Blinded by nostalgia.
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      Old January 11th, 2019 (6:14 PM). Edited January 11th, 2019 by weedle_mchairybug.
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        Blinded by nostalgia.
        Eh, not really. AG and DP definitely weren't all THAT good, considering that Team Rocket were depicted as useless villains (and all because Takeshi Shudo couldn't bear to get rid of his favorite characters) who didn't even come across as being a genuine threat, it being the start of the infamous level resets that plague the show (though at least AG gave something of an excuse for that since Pikachu had a cold at the beginning), started the girl-swapping and using rather blatant fanservice stuff, Brock came across as even LESS useful than in Johto, it basically trashing the Gym Leaders by making them Team Rocket clones, heck, even treated Ash pretty badly (overall, you could skip AG and not miss much). And also their overfocus on what was little more than an overglorified sidequest in the games that was completely skippable, and the female characters were just badly characterized. Sure, the original series was not perfect by any stretch, as Johto being lengthy can attest to, and even Kanto had gym leaders basically handing out badges, but at least Team Rocket for most of Kanto, the Orange Islands and even Johto to some extent qualified as genuine threats at various times, at least the gym leaders, both in Kanto and especially Johto, actually DID prove themselves to be very formidable, and we actually GOT the sense that Ash actually progressed through his goal, something the later series utterly failed to do. Oh, and even Brock showed some usefulness besides cooking at various times.

        Besides, even AG's ratings showed nostalgia was not even a factor in it being truly bad (Johto, widely considered a bad saga, did better in overall ratings than AG did).
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        Old January 11th, 2019 (6:30 PM).
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        honestly at this point i'm so, so tired of people going on about how things after kanto and johto aren't great. i watched both seasons fairly interesting and while they were fun they, personally, held up the same as the rest of pokemon. each series has things that have more focus on than in other series. each series has different points that are good and bad. at the end of the day it's honestly subjective as to which series of pokemon you like the best.

        from where i'm standing most people say kanto and johto are the best because they have nostalgia glasses on. if the regions were switched around and kanto and johto were later on in the series guess what. we would probably be rattataing about kanto and johto not being good while say, unova (because it was a pretty heavy reset) was solid. i'm just saying this as a insight not a fact so don't bother going off and telling me how kanto and johto are better etc etc.

        because at the end of the day there are things that i enjoy from every series and if the series isn't your cup of tea that's cool. maybe the next one will be. or maybe you just grew out of how the formula for pokemon works so future series can't be enjoyable from what you've seen as a kid.

        THAT SAID hoenn and dp aren't terrible. most people hold dp in a high regard because of paul being a formidable rival after not having one at all in hoenn and to this day sinnoh was probably the one that pushed ash towards his limit the most (though i'm sure people around would argue that it would've been kalos that did. i disagree, but that's another subject for another day).

        tldr; tara is tired of people saying x is better than x like it's fact when in reality it's all subject and depends on what you're looking for
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        Old January 11th, 2019 (7:30 PM).
        weedle_mchairybug weedle_mchairybug is offline
           
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          honestly at this point i'm so, so tired of people going on about how things after kanto and johto aren't great. i watched both seasons fairly interesting and while they were fun they, personally, held up the same as the rest of pokemon. each series has things that have more focus on than in other series. each series has different points that are good and bad. at the end of the day it's honestly subjective as to which series of pokemon you like the best.

          from where i'm standing most people say kanto and johto are the best because they have nostalgia glasses on. if the regions were switched around and kanto and johto were later on in the series guess what. we would probably be *****ing about kanto and johto not being good while say, unova (because it was a pretty heavy reset) was solid. i'm just saying this as a insight not a fact so don't bother going off and telling me how kanto and johto are better etc etc.

          because at the end of the day there are things that i enjoy from every series and if the series isn't your cup of tea that's cool. maybe the next one will be. or maybe you just grew out of how the formula for pokemon works so future series can't be enjoyable from what you've seen as a kid.

          THAT SAID hoenn and dp aren't terrible. most people hold dp in a high regard because of paul being a formidable rival after not having one at all in hoenn and to this day sinnoh was probably the one that pushed ash towards his limit the most (though i'm sure people around would argue that it would've been kalos that did. i disagree, but that's another subject for another day).

          tldr; tara is tired of people saying x is better than x like it's fact when in reality it's all subject and depends on what you're looking for
          Quite frankly, had I watched AG and DP first, and THEN watched the Original series after that, I definitely would have said the Original series was a LOT better than AG and DP, so it definitely ain't nostalgia driving me to think that at all, but an actual objective analysis. And quite frankly, I give a lot of credit to XY for actually RESTORING the Gym Leaders to their proper status as actually BEING formidable foes, and doing so WITHOUT making Ash look incompetent. I hated how AG, DP, and BW managed to do either of those things. If I have one complaint about the Kalos gym leaders, its that they made them a bit too powerful. In fact, until the Kanto Reunion arc where Brock and Misty fought the classmates, XY came the closest to redeeming the Gym Leaders of their reputation, restoring their honor. And quite frankly, I would not have been fond of Unova at all especially after how they made Ash into an idiot even by his usual nature.
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          Old January 11th, 2019 (7:49 PM). Edited January 11th, 2019 by Ash.
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          You... you clearly didnt read when i said dont bother telling me kanto and johto were better because everything i said was insight.

          Ash was a moron in kanto arguably more so than in unova. It just doesnt seem like so because we are used to kanto being first. So once again this whole argument is on a subjective matter and while we all have our opinions none of it is really an objective fact
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          Old January 11th, 2019 (9:08 PM). Edited January 11th, 2019 by IcyIce.
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            People will have their own opinions, and A TON of fans love Hoenn and Sinnoh anime. Those are my favorite seasons aside from Kalos.

            Kanto and Johto hardly did anything. Misty and Brock hardly got any development in Kanto and Brock didn't get any real progress till Sinnoh. Johto has a whole was a copy and paste of Kanto except for the Silver Conference, which is probably still my favorite League.

            Hoenn developed May amazingly and Sinnoh did the same thing for Dawn. Honestly have no idea how you are getting that Brock and Misty have great development in Kanto and Johto when they stayed exactly the same till about half way through Johto.

            And for the most part, Ash didn't get any real development till Johto as well. In Johto, the gyms were far better than Kanto, because for the most part, Ash didn't earn any of his Kanto Bandges.

            Brock gave it to him even after not winning.
            Misty's sister gave him the badge even tough the battle was never finished.
            The other badges he also didn't earn through victory.
            The only badge he did rightfully earn was Lt. Surge's.

            And the Earth badge could hardly be considered a worthy badge. In the Kanto League, it was terrible. And most episodes in Kanto and Johto were fillers similar to Alola which again I hate.
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            Old January 11th, 2019 (9:21 PM). Edited January 11th, 2019 by strangerhypno.
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              They all have their ups and downs. OS Kanto had a lot better comedic moments, but Ash was pretty incompetent. I think Kanto had decent filler as well. Johto settled the rival between Ash and Gary, though Ash remained incompetent training his Johto team and boxed Heracross early on. He's lucky some of his Pokemon didn't need training to be strong.

              Hoenn and Sinnoh did develop the goals of May and Dawn, compared to Misty's lack of progress, probably because her goal is a lot more vague like Ash's. Hoenn/Sinnoh also furthered Ash's experience that wasn't as hard reset as later regions, and he collected a larger arsenal of pokemon. I'd say Paul/Ash's rivalry is more intense and plotted out than Gary/Ash's. But Hoenn and Sinnoh were also the start of the endless reset cycle as well.
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              Old January 11th, 2019 (10:16 PM). Edited January 11th, 2019 by Dawn.
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              Looks like someone didn't watch Best Wishes or XYZ or SM...heh.
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              Old January 11th, 2019 (11:51 PM).
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              tbh every season/region has its bad moments. and personally, i find johto blander than ag and dp. kanto has its moments, especially at the start but as it got on it got repetitive and boring. but at the end of the day, lets make our own opinions and let others enjoy theirs. the pokemon anime is not that good anyway
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              Old January 12th, 2019 (6:02 AM). Edited January 12th, 2019 by Piii.
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                Kanto and Johto might not have been perfect but atleast they were more mature and enjoyable, Ash/Misty and Brock did have some character development.

                Hoenn and Sinnoh didn't developed the characters all that well, May and Dawn over took the show in the worst way possible, plus Brock didn't really do all that much in Hoenn or even Sinnoh for that matter, both of these sagas sucked and didn't have anything worth remembering.

                Not everyone love the Hoenn and Sinnoh anime because they were both the worst Pokemon series to date, Kanto and Johto gave the characters much better development and interesting personalities, Sinnoh didn't help Ash character that much he only improved in one region and that is not a good thing at all.

                Ash improved in both regions as a Pokemon trainer and mature as a character which is good, his Johto team was pretty strong, Sinnoh series is garbage and ruin the characters forever, is no surprise why Brock left the show because DP sucked, they ruin his good character from the OS by making him become a Pokemon Doctor it was the worst idea the writer's ever came up with, DP was full of mistakes like making Ash's Cyndaquil evolved when back in OS Johto he never plan to evolved Cyndaquil, which contradict everything that happen in the OS episode You're a star Larvitar.

                The AG/DP animes were so boring and horrible that they are both underrated and forgotten.
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                Old January 12th, 2019 (8:59 AM). Edited January 12th, 2019 by weedle_mchairybug.
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                  You... you clearly didnt read when i said dont bother telling me kanto and johto were better because everything i said was insight.

                  Ash was a moron in kanto arguably more so than in unova. It just doesnt seem like so because we are used to kanto being first. So once again this whole argument is on a subjective matter and while we all have our opinions none of it is really an objective fact
                  Ash at least had his starting out and being an explicit rookie as an excuse for his more moronic phase in Kanto, something he clearly didn't have in BW (and besides, Ash back in Kanto definitely didn't mistake a person for a Pokémon, which he actually did when meeting Iris and mistaking her for an Axew even when it couldn't have been even more obvious that she wasn't. And that bit actually WAS objective.).

                  And I read that part, actually, yet it doesn't really mean anything. Also, there's plenty of objective reasons to cite the Original series as better (heck, I myself made it VERY clear I would have said the Original series was better even if I started out with Best Wishes, or for that matter AG and DP.).

                  Quote:
                  People will have their own opinions, and A TON of fans love Hoenn and Sinnoh anime. Those are my favorite seasons aside from Kalos.

                  Kanto and Johto hardly did anything. Misty and Brock hardly got any development in Kanto and Brock didn't get any real progress till Sinnoh. Johto has a whole was a copy and paste of Kanto except for the Silver Conference, which is probably still my favorite League.

                  Hoenn developed May amazingly and Sinnoh did the same thing for Dawn. Honestly have no idea how you are getting that Brock and Misty have great development in Kanto and Johto when they stayed exactly the same till about half way through Johto.

                  And for the most part, Ash didn't get any real development till Johto as well. In Johto, the gyms were far better than Kanto, because for the most part, Ash didn't earn any of his Kanto Bandges.

                  Brock gave it to him even after not winning.
                  Misty's sister gave him the badge even tough the battle was never finished.
                  The other badges he also didn't earn through victory.
                  The only badge he did rightfully earn was Lt. Surge's.

                  And the Earth badge could hardly be considered a worthy badge. In the Kanto League, it was terrible. And most episodes in Kanto and Johto were fillers similar to Alola which again I hate.
                  Actually, Misty did get PLENTY of development throughout the original series. Just ask DBZ Fan if he's still around, as he's got a LOT of evidence pointing to that (heck, just look at his posting history). And even Brock got some development as well. At the very least, Misty's development actually came across as very natural compared to May (actually, if you ask me, May's development was terrible. I'm sorry, but I don't buy the idea that she would even be a trainer in the first place when she hates Pokémon, even less so considering she's the daughter of a gym leader. Even if we were to use the whole "she wanted an excuse to travel" to justify it, she didn't need to become a trainer to do that. Or do I have to remind you that Seymour the Scientist didn't have ANY Pokémon on hand and pretty clearly travelled. It's cheap development. I'd guess you say that Solid Snake in Metal Gear Solid 2 received "outstanding" development just because he pulled a lot of plot twists and was unpredictable.).

                  As far as Johto, that wasn't a copy/paste by any stretch. Actually, if ANY saga came across as copy/paste, it was Unova due to Ash outright regressing in development to Ash back in Kanto, if even further down than that.

                  And while I will admit that Ash not actually beating half of the gym leaders was a bit of a flaw with Kanto, I will also point out that Ash did in fact earn half of his badges. Don't forget, besides Lt. Surge (and just as an FYI, I actually WISH the Hoenn gym leaders were depicted more like Surge or even Blaine in terms of utter battling skills. As it is, the closest we've got to actual good gym leaders are Brawley due to him actually BEATING Ash and possibly Roxanne due to her only losing against Pikachu.), he also fought and beat Koga and Blaine, and even with the Earth Badge, he at least actually BEAT the Gym Leader there, and thus MORE than earned his badge (if anything, said gym leader, Team Rocket, cheated multiple times). Besides, even in Brock's case, I can sort of forgive it, because had Ash just won it, it STILL would have technically been cheating since, 1., he only got close to winning due to accidentally setting off the sprinklers, and 2., the only reason he had any chance at beating Brock was thanks to essentially giving Pikachu the electric equivalent of Steroids. And at least Misty's sisters waited until AFTER Misty and Ash tried to battle, which was a LOT better than Ash just taking the badge without even a fight (which WAS the original bit). And quite frankly, if I have to choose between Ash taking "pity badges" or Ash's rookies creaming the Gym Leaders worse than Caterpie creamed Team Rocket for no justifiable reason and thus making them look like utter wimps, I'd take pity badges especially if the Gym Leaders showed themselves to be forces to be reckoned with.

                  Quote:
                  They all have their ups and downs. OS Kanto had a lot better comedic moments, but Ash was pretty incompetent. I think Kanto had decent filler as well. Johto settled the rival between Ash and Gary, though Ash remained incompetent training his Johto team and boxed Heracross early on. He's lucky some of his Pokemon didn't need training to be strong.
                  To be fair, Kanto had the excuse of Ash just starting out, so I could tolerate his incompetence there compared to, say, Unova. And Johto was definitely better in terms of Ash's competence. At least he actually BEATS the Gym Leaders in battle in a believable manner rather than either mowing them and making them look like wimps via his rookies, or otherwise having the badges handed to him without him winning the fight.

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                  Hoenn and Sinnoh did develop the goals of May and Dawn, compared to Misty's lack of progress, probably because her goal is a lot more vague like Ash's. Hoenn/Sinnoh also furthered Ash's experience that wasn't as hard reset as later regions, and he collected a larger arsenal of pokemon. I'd say Paul/Ash's rivalry is more intense and plotted out than Gary/Ash's. But Hoenn and Sinnoh were also the start of the endless reset cycle as well.
                  Actually, Misty's goal wasn't more vague than Ash's. If anything, Ash's goal was a LOT more vague back then (remember, it wasn't until DP that we even got a hint that he has to fight and beat the Elite 4, or indeed any way of getting there barring beating Gyms. In fact, it wasn't even clear if beating a League would get you there since Ash continued his journey into Johto despite winning the Orange Islands league.). DBZ Fan even gave quite an argument about her goals that demonstrated that: https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=336960 Also, May and Dawn's goal just was false advertising for the games. At least with Misty's goal, it's technically possible to win with an all-water team in the leagues. You don't get the end credits if you complete all the contests, or even advance the story in any way. Ash's Pokémon in Hoenn also got the Mary Sue treatment and rendered the Gym Leaders to be complete jokes, which isn't a good thing, and as far as hard level resets, do I really have to remind you of how Pikachu got humiliated in Sinnoh multiple times despite beating a Regice, or how Pikachu had its butt handed to it by Gary despite the latter being retired? No, AG and DP definitely were not good at all.
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                  Old January 12th, 2019 (11:29 AM). Edited January 12th, 2019 by MysticalNinetales.
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                  I personally think the DP series is the best and by far the most interesting. Dawn was strikingly independent, she had her own goals and she pursued them. She didn't just follow Ash around like some insignificant lackey. And Paul was such a phenomenal rival! His battles with Ash were so exciting to watch. The series was heartfelt, FULL of character development and it was all around incredible. The AG series was a lot more flawed. I re-watched it a year or two ago and I found it a tad boring, certainly wasn't as good as I'd remembered. Although, it has some really fabulous episodes and I mean we all must admit that the series had tremendous opening themes.

                  Now, I thought the Kanto and Johto anime's were both well done respectively. However, I don't find them nearly as appealing as AG or DP. Misty I found a touch annoying at times and some of the gym battles were simply uninteresting. Although, the Best Wishes series is easily the worst. Iris was just exasperating.
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                  Old January 12th, 2019 (12:08 PM).
                  weedle_mchairybug weedle_mchairybug is offline
                     
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                    Kanto and Johto might not have been perfect but atleast they were more mature and enjoyable, Ash/Misty and Brock did have some character development.

                    Hoenn and Sinnoh didn't developed the characters all that well, May and Dawn over took the show in the worst way possible, plus Brock didn't really do all that much in Hoenn or even Sinnoh for that matter, both of these sagas sucked and didn't have anything worth remembering.

                    Not everyone love the Hoenn and Sinnoh anime because they were both the worst Pokemon series to date, Kanto and Johto gave the characters much better development and interesting personalities, Sinnoh didn't help Ash character that much he only improved in one region and that is not a good thing at all.

                    Ash improved in both regions as a Pokemon trainer and mature as a character which is good, his Johto team was pretty strong, Sinnoh series is garbage and ruin the characters forever, is no surprise why Brock left the show because DP sucked, they ruin his good character from the OS by making him become a Pokemon Doctor it was the worst idea the writer's ever came up with, DP was full of mistakes like making Ash's Cyndaquil evolved when back in OS Johto he never plan to evolved Cyndaquil, which contradict everything that happen in the OS episode You're a star Larvitar.

                    The AG/DP animes were so boring and horrible that they are both underrated and forgotten.
                    Ah, don't you mean overrated? Underrated would imply that they're actually better than what they're made out to be, while overrated means they're worse than they're made out to be.

                    But yeah, they definitely weren't that good, don't even hold a candle to the original series. Probably the only redeeming bit about DP is that they at least gave an actual explanation on how to become a Pokémon Master, not to mention Ash actually doing better than in Hoenn, actually gaining a rank. Other than that, it was just bad. Though I have little comment on Brock (to be honest, him not actually making any strides in his breeder goal such as, I don't know, actually HAVING his Pokémon mate and produce an egg was a mistake).

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                    I personally think the DP series is the best and by far the most interesting. Dawn was strikingly independent, she had her own goals and she pursued them. She didn't just follow Ash around like some insignificant lackey. And Paul was such a phenomenal rival! His battles with Ash were so exciting to watch. The series was heartfelt, FULL of character development and it was all around incredible. The AG series was a lot more flawed. I re-watched it a year or two ago and I found it a tad boring, certainly wasn't as good as I'd remembered. Although, it has some really fabulous episodes and I mean we all must admit that the series had tremendous opening themes.
                    Eh, Misty had her own independent goals as well, and she certainly didn't follow him like a lackey. I'll give you May, though. And quite frankly, I'm not even sure why Dawn even bothered to follow Ash, not like she even needed to travel with him (though I'll give her some credit: At least she didn't start off hating Pokémon). As far as Paul, honestly, I actually hated the fact that he beat Pikachu twice, and not even with his Torterra, but with explicit rookies. Sure, he wasn't as bad as Trip who actually WAS a rookie, but having Paul beat Pikachu with rookies like Elekid and Ursaring does a major disservice to Pikachu's development, especially when it came right after Pikachu's win against Brandon's Regice (and BTW, Paul couldn't even BEAT Brandon's Regice when the two fought each other, so why the heck should he even be able to beat Pikachu at all?). It would have been better if for once, Ash had a rival akin to Vegeta who actually was jealous of Ash's strides and tried to one up him, rather than Ash basically being in Vegeta's position. I also wasn't fond of how Ash and Pikachu had a level reset and can't even beat Gym Leaders especially after Ash won against Regice with Pikachu with minimal effort.

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                    Now, I thought the Kanto and Johto anime's were both well done respectively. However, I don't find them nearly as appealing as AG or DP. Misty I found a touch annoying at times and some of the gym battles were simply uninteresting. Although, the Best Wishes series is easily the worst. Iris was just exasperating.
                    Eh, I actually thought Kanto and Johto did things better than AG or DP, especially regarding gym leaders. At least Kanto and Johto didn't give the Gym Leaders the Team Rocket treatment of making them out to be complete wimps at battling or otherwise only getting far by having Ash and Pikachu take huge levels in dumbass. Heck, I'd actually rather take pity badges than watching Ash outright slaughter gym leaders with rookies even when they shouldn't be able to win against Gym Leaders at that stage, certainly not that easily. And I agree that Best Wishes is one of the worst (can't say THE worst, though: Sun and Moon might rival that series in regards to being the worst), though I do disagree about Iris. She if anything was one of the show's better characters, largely because she was in fact more like Misty than like May and Dawn.
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                    Old January 12th, 2019 (1:07 PM). Edited January 12th, 2019 by MysticalNinetales.
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                    Eh, Misty had her own independent goals as well, and she certainly didn't follow him like a lackey. I'll give you May, though. And quite frankly, I'm not even sure why Dawn even bothered to follow Ash, not like she even needed to travel with him (though I'll give her some credit: At least she didn't start off hating Pokémon). As far as Paul, honestly, I actually hated the fact that he beat Pikachu twice, and not even with his Torterra, but with explicit rookies. Sure, he wasn't as bad as Trip who actually WAS a rookie, but having Paul beat Pikachu with rookies like Elekid and Ursaring does a major disservice to Pikachu's development, especially when it came right after Pikachu's win against Brandon's Regice (and BTW, Paul couldn't even BEAT Brandon's Regice when the two fought each other, so why the heck should he even be able to beat Pikachu at all?). It would have been better if for once, Ash had a rival akin to Vegeta who actually was jealous of Ash's strides and tried to one up him, rather than Ash basically being in Vegeta's position. I also wasn't fond of how Ash and Pikachu had a level reset and can't even beat Gym Leaders especially after Ash won against Regice with Pikachu with minimal effort.
                    I wasn't explicitly referring to Misty. I disagree about Paul, I liked the fact that he managed to defeat Ash on a consistent basis. It helped contribute to Ash's character development in the series and it pushed him to work hard training his pokemon and forced him to consider battle strategies. Paul in my mind was nothing like Trip. To me, Trip's victories seemed like a fluke and I never got the impression that Trip was an overly accomplished trainer. Paul on the other hand was known for his strength and for his tendency to push his pokemon to their limits in order to be the best. If anything, Paul is the most similar to Gary. I agree with you that it would be nice if Ash had a rival who aimed to defeat him, given the fact that Ash at this point in the series should be an extremely talented and esteemed trainer. (Although, as we know, he has had a tendency to revert back to his juvenile, naive, 10 year-old self after travelling to a foreign region.) Ash's rivals have become increasingly stale and monotonous, as they're all either overly friendly or aloof and uninteresting.


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                    Eh, I actually thought Kanto and Johto did things better than AG or DP, especially regarding gym leaders. At least Kanto and Johto didn't give the Gym Leaders the Team Rocket treatment of making them out to be complete wimps at battling or otherwise only getting far by having Ash and Pikachu take huge levels in dumbass. Heck, I'd actually rather take pity badges than watching Ash outright slaughter gym leaders with rookies even when they shouldn't be able to win against Gym Leaders at that stage, certainly not that easily. And I agree that Best Wishes is one of the worst (can't say THE worst, though: Sun and Moon might rival that series in regards to being the worst), though I do disagree about Iris. She if anything was one of the show's better characters, largely because she was in fact more like Misty than like May and Dawn.
                    How was Iris like Misty? Iris was such an annoyance. What was her purpose? They needed a female character, and they created Iris. Absolutely nothing about her stands out, other than her irritating squeaky voice, horrendous hair and her repetitive remarks. "yOu'Re sUcH a kId." Misty at least was a gym leader and wasn't constantly nagging Ash. She was likeable, she was sweet and compassionate. Dawn and May in my opinion are much better than Iris. (Now, of course, this is simply my own opinion. You are entitled to yours as I am entitled to mine.) They were fully dimensional and real. They had insecurities and doubted themselves at times. Growing up, as a young girl, I really appreciate the humanity that those two had. I felt like they were easy to connect with and relate to. (Although, May was borderline a bit too emotional. She appeared to be constantly tormented by her own self-deprecating thoughts and feelings.)

                    As for Sun and Moon, I haven't watched a whole lot of it but from what I have seen, it isn't all that awful. Personally, the only real issue I have with it is the animation. Of course, as I previously stated, I have only seem partial clips and certain episodes of the series.
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                    Old January 12th, 2019 (2:04 PM).
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                      Can't believe there is this much debate over the anime. It's just a shill tool to get the Japanese kids all excited so they can get their moms to buy the merchandise and games.
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                      Old January 12th, 2019 (2:16 PM). Edited January 12th, 2019 by adventure.
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                      If you have nothing more to contribute to a discussion than to call it bait and say that you aren't going to bother, then don't bother posting. It will only create bad atmosphere.

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                      Can't believe there is this much debate over the anime. It's just a shill tool to get the Japanese kids all excited so they can get their moms to buy the merchandise and games.
                      Some people really like this anime. Let them do so :) I personally am really enjoying the Sun & Moon series currently. This thread isn't for debating whether or not the anime is worth debating, anyways.

                      To all others here: carry on in good tone. This thread started quite negatively, but if you are enjoying discussing and debating in a civil fashion, by all means do continue c:
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                      Old January 12th, 2019 (3:11 PM). Edited January 12th, 2019 by Piii.
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                        Ah, don't you mean overrated? Underrated would imply that they're actually better than what they're made out to be, while overrated means they're worse than they're made out to be.

                        Underrated means it is not good, Overrated means that it is good.

                        But yeah, they definitely weren't that good, don't even hold a candle to the original series. Probably the only redeeming bit about DP is that they at least gave an actual explanation on how to become a Pokémon Master, not to mention Ash actually doing better than in Hoenn, actually gaining a rank. Other than that, it was just bad. Though I have little comment on Brock (to be honest, him not actually making any strides in his breeder goal such as, I don't know, actually HAVING his Pokémon mate and produce an egg was a mistake).

                        DP was a very terrible time for the anime, giving the fact there was way too many mistakes made during this underrated era, like the poor handling of the trade between Ash and Dawn to the god awful overrush Sinnoh League, I didn't forget the fact how poorly Ash and Brock characters were handled during the Sinnoh series.



                        Eh, Misty had her own independent goals as well, and she certainly didn't follow him like a lackey. I'll give you May, though. And quite frankly, I'm not even sure why Dawn even bothered to follow Ash, not like she even needed to travel with him (though I'll give her some credit: At least she didn't start off hating Pokémon). As far as Paul, honestly, I actually hated the fact that he beat Pikachu twice, and not even with his Torterra, but with explicit rookies. Sure, he wasn't as bad as Trip who actually WAS a rookie, but having Paul beat Pikachu with rookies like Elekid and Ursaring does a major disservice to Pikachu's development, especially when it came right after Pikachu's win against Brandon's Regice (and BTW, Paul couldn't even BEAT Brandon's Regice when the two fought each other, so why the heck should he even be able to beat Pikachu at all?). It would have been better if for once, Ash had a rival akin to Vegeta who actually was jealous of Ash's strides and tried to one up him, rather than Ash basically being in Vegeta's position. I also wasn't fond of how Ash and Pikachu had a level reset and can't even beat Gym Leaders especially after Ash won against Regice with Pikachu with minimal effort.



                        Eh, I actually thought Kanto and Johto did things better than AG or DP, especially regarding gym leaders. At least Kanto and Johto didn't give the Gym Leaders the Team Rocket treatment of making them out to be complete wimps at battling or otherwise only getting far by having Ash and Pikachu take huge levels in dumbass. Heck, I'd actually rather take pity badges than watching Ash outright slaughter gym leaders with rookies even when they shouldn't be able to win against Gym Leaders at that stage, certainly not that easily. And I agree that Best Wishes is one of the worst (can't say THE worst, though: Sun and Moon might rival that series in regards to being the worst), though I do disagree about Iris. She if anything was one of the show's better characters, largely because she was in fact more like Misty than like May and Dawn.
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                        I wasn't explicitly referring to Misty. I disagree about Paul, I liked the fact that he managed to defeat Ash on a consistent basis. It helped contribute to Ash's character development in the series and it pushed him to work hard training his pokemon and forced him to consider battle strategies. Paul in my mind was nothing like Trip. To me, Trip's victories seemed like a fluke and I never got the impression that Trip was an overly accomplished trainer. Paul on the other hand was known for his strength and for his tendency to push his pokemon to their limits in order to be the best. If anything, Paul is the most similar to Gary. I agree with you that it would be nice if Ash had a rival who aimed to defeat him, given the fact that Ash at this point in the series should be an extremely talented and esteemed trainer. (Although, as we know, he has had a tendency to revert back to his juvenile, naive, 10 year-old self after travelling to a foreign region.) Ash's rivals have become increasingly stale and monotonous, as they're all either overly friendly or aloof and uninteresting.




                        How was Iris like Misty? Iris was such an annoyance. What was her purpose? They needed a female character, and they created Iris. Absolutely nothing about her stands out, other than her irritating squeaky voice, horrendous hair and her repetitive remarks. "yOu'Re sUcH a kId." Misty at least was a gym leader and wasn't constantly nagging Ash. She was likeable, she was sweet and compassionate. Dawn and May in my opinion are much better than Iris. (Now, of course, this is simply my own opinion. You are entitled to yours as I am entitled to mine.) They were fully dimensional and real. They had insecurities and doubted themselves at times. Growing up, as a young girl, I really appreciate the humanity that those two had. I felt like they were easy to connect with and relate to. (Although, May was borderline a bit too emotional. She appeared to be constantly tormented by her own self-deprecating thoughts and feelings.)

                        As for Sun and Moon, I haven't watched a whole lot of it but from what I have seen, it isn't all that awful. Personally, the only real issue I have with it is the animation. Of course, as I previously stated, I have only seem partial clips and certain episodes of the series.
                        Misty and Iris was far more better and interesting then May and Dawn who both had no true good reasons being on the show in the first, because their only purpose was to promote the 3rd and 4th Generations Pokemon contests, Iris was much better then May and Dawn because she actually had a goal to become a Dragon master, she is now traveling on her own right now to become a Pokemon Dragon Master, that is much better then those stupid pointless Pokemon contests that May and Dawn did.

                        Paul was a one note pointless rival who didn't add anything new to the show, he was nothing like Gary at all because the only reason why he became Ash's rival was to see how strong his Pokemon really is and also because his brother lost to one of the Frontier Brains, his character was really terrible and the only good thing about Paul was how strong his Pokemon was other then that, his rivary with Ash was pointless. Ash and Gary were the best rivals of the OS anime because their rivary made sense and was developed for both regions instead of one, Gary was a way more interesting character then Paul who was a one note unteresting rival for only Sinnoh, heck even Trip was more interesting then Paul.
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                        Old January 12th, 2019 (5:36 PM). Edited January 12th, 2019 by CodeHelmet.
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                          OP is definitely bait for getting negative responses but everyone is entitled to their opinion on a really subjective matter. Some people hate AG/DP for the Contests and other aspects such as Poke Bloc/Poke Poffins that were completely optional in the games as a pivotal or important aspect of the Anime. Some people hate them for simply shaking up the old dynamic of Ash, Misty and Brock as a crew that travels around to challenge Gyms and catch new Pokémon.

                          As I’ve said in my Top Series thread(which you can find here: Click me), I found both AG and DP to be worth watching, although DP more so than AG. The reason for this is because AG was the guinea pig for changing the group dynamic. May replaced Misty as the new female lead and had a much bigger role. While the role was optional in the games, it still involved battling(something that Serena sadly never had to endure). Since May was the first one to be introduced and go through the Contest path, she was also the most flawed. Her introduction was botched as far as I’m concerned, although who’s to say it wasn’t deliberate. Either way you look at it, May did undergo loads of character development. The most disappointing area were the Gym Leaders. Roxanne lost to Ash’s Ace and Brawly beat Ash the first time around but then quickly went downhill after that with Ash making a mockery of Wattson and the disgraceful culmination in Thunder Armor in the Tate&Liza match.

                          Compare that to DP and Dawn. Dawn was a far more polished character from the start and her development was a joy to watch at times. Paul was the first true rival since Gary whose philosophy in raising Pokémon was a pure 180 to how Ash did things. The fact Paul beat Ash at every turn made Ash question himself and his methods and the rivalry only got hotter when they revealed Paul’s motivation in defeating Brandon(whom Ash had defeated in the series prior). Not to say DP was immune from flaws or criticism. Gym Leaders weren’t much better than Hoenn and Ash losing to Roark seemed to be a slap in the face when Pikachu solo’d Regice in Battle Frontier roughly 17 Episodes prior.
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                          Old January 12th, 2019 (6:18 PM). Edited January 12th, 2019 by weedle_mchairybug.
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                            Misty and Iris was far more better and interesting then May and Dawn who both had no true good reasons being on the show in the first, because their only purpose was to promote the 3rd and 4th Generations Pokemon contests, Iris was much better then May and Dawn because she actually had a goal to become a Dragon master, she is now traveling on her own right now to become a Pokemon Dragon Master, that is much better then those stupid pointless Pokemon contests that May and Dawn did.

                            Paul was a one note pointless rival who didn't add anything new to the show, he was nothing like Gary at all because the only reason why he became Ash's rival was to see how strong his Pokemon really is and also because his brother lost to one of the Frontier Brains, his character was really terrible and the only good thing about Paul was how strong his Pokemon was other then that, his rivary with Ash was pointless. Ash and Gary were the best rivals of the OS anime because their rivary made sense and was developed for both regions instead of one, Gary was a way more interesting character then Paul who was a one note unteresting rival for only Sinnoh, heck even Trip was more interesting then Paul.
                            Yeah, and quite frankly, I'd forgive them promoting contests had they actually been directly relevant to the game's story, and since the anime, especially starting with AG, became little more than an overglorified infomercial for the games (I won't say commercial, since those don't last as long), they might as well make sure they're as accurate to the games in their advertising as needed. In other words, don't focus on stuff that is little more than a sidequest that doesn't impact the story or ending. Maybe if May and Dawn did the route of the Gyms and had an actual mentor-student relationship, that actually might work.

                            As far as Paul, I'll be blunt, he didn't really come across as a good rival. And besides, the games NEVER had your rival question your methods (not even Silver did, and that guy came the closest to meeting Paul's characterization), so why the heck was it necessary to have Paul force Ash to question his methods? And I also wasn't happy at all that Paul basically beat Ash's Pikachu twice, and not even with his actual starter Pokémon Torterra, which would have been a bit more understandable, but with explicit rookies (well, okay, you might make the case that Elekid might have been a late capture from the prior region, but Ursaring was definitely not a seasoned pro, being explicitly caught within Sinnoh). That was the same Pokémon that solo'd Regice almost immediately prior, and to add insult to injury, immediately prior to their first rematch, Brandon basically handed Paul his butt.

                            Quote:
                            OP is definitely bait for getting negative responses but everyone is entitled to their opinion on a really subjective matter. Some people hate AG/DP for the Contests and other aspects such as Poke Bloc/Poke Poffins that were completely optional in the games as a pivotal or important aspect of the Anime. Some people hate them for simply shaking up the old dynamic of Ash, Misty and Brock as a crew that travels around to challenge Gyms and catch new Pokémon.

                            As I’ve said in my Top Series thread(which you can find here: Click me), I found both AG and DP to worth watching, although DP more so than AG. The reason for this is because AG was the guinea pig for changing the group dynamic. May replaced Misty as the new female lead and had a much bigger role. While the role was optional in the games, it still involved battling(something that Serena sadly never had to endure). Since May was the first one to be introduced and go through the Contest path, she was also the most flawed. Her introduction was botched as far as I’m concerned, although who’s to say it wasn’t deliberate. Either way you look at it, May did undergo loads of character development. The most disappointing area were the Gym Leaders. Roxanne lost to Ash’s Ace and Brawly beat Ash the first time around but then quickly went downhill after that with Ash making a mockery of Wattson and the disgraceful culmination in Thunder Armor in the Tate&Liza match.

                            Compare that to DP and Dawn. Dawn was a far more polished character from the start and her development was a joy to watch at times. Paul was the first true rival since Gary whose philosophy in raising Pokémon was a pure 180 to how Ash did things. The fact Paul beat Ash at every turn made Ash question himself and his methods and the rivalry only got hotter when they revealed Paul’s motivation in defeating Brandon(whom Ash had defeated in the series prior). Not to say DP was immune from flaws or criticism. Gym Leaders weren’t much better than Hoenn and Ash losing to Roark seemed to be a slap in the face when Pikachu solo’d Regice in Battle Frontier roughly 17 Episodes prior.
                            Honestly, you'd think the writers would have learned after they tried that with Brock that such is NEVER a good idea to do. And as I mentioned earlier, Pokémon Contests are optional, and just because they involve battling doesn't mean they should be a main goal. What, should the Princess Festival be a full-fledged goal, or even the Pokémon League Exams? Those also involve battling, yet no one would say they'd make a full-fledged goal. And May just underwent cheap character development, about as cheap as Flounder's "development" from Ariel's Beginning to the first Little Mermaid, or heck, how Solid Snake was generally handled in Metal Gear where he had inconsistent characterization. Misty's development actually WAS a lot more natural. I definitely agree with you on Hoenn's Gym Leaders, they were terrible (basically Team Rocket style defeats), and to add insult to injury, Ash stayed the same rank in the league as in Johto, meaning their losses were for nothing, not even having Ash actually improve over Johto. And quite frankly, May and Dawn were NOT appropriate for children regarding their designs, being big-busted and having a skirt short enough that even a slight breeze would have people see all, and the fact that Hidaka specifically indicated that the girls were deliberately designed to be disposable eyecandy is even worse especially when they're 10 year olds. If they really wanted to do disposable fanservice girls, at least make them 16 or 18 so they AREN'T borderline child porn.

                            As far as Dawn, she barely really developed, largely remaining the same as before. And besides, I still think her going for contests was unnecessary. Even if they did want to make more of a role, it's not like they can't have May and Dawn be disciples to Ash and go the Gym Battle routes (would even make good contrasts regarding battling styles), even have a sort-of final test in the leagues where Ash and May/Dawn fight each other. That would have been infinitely more interesting to see, and even allow for actual development on Ash's end as well.

                            And as far as Paul, like I said, I fail to see how Paul forcing Ash to question his methods made him a good rival (for goodness sakes, the rivals in the games don't have the player have their training methods questioned, not even Silver did that. In fact, if anything, the point was to show the rivals' training methods are flawed.). And quite frankly, Paul's Ursaring beating the much more experienced Pikachu as easily as it did, despite LOSING to Brandon literally an episode prior, was a complete embarrassment. If they REALLY had to have Pikachu lose to Paul, they should have had him lose to Paul's starter Pokémon Torterra, not an explicit rookie, and let's face it, despite Ash's Chimchar/Monferno connection to Paul, it was Pikachu and Torterra who were starters and thus really should have fought each other. It was just as much of a punch to the face as Roark beating Pikachu earlier (which even you cited was bad). Same goes for Pikachu's loss against Elekid in their first battle. I'll acknowledge that Paul was slightly better than Trip, though only because Paul at least was around Ash's experience level, while Trip defeated Ash despite the latter being way more experienced than him. Heck, Gary even BEATING Ash to get him to go to Sinnoh in the first place was also a punch in the face as well, especially when Gary, thanks to retiring to follow Professor Oak's footsteps, should not be doing training anyways (at least with a similar situation during the Orange Islands, we can assume he trained heavily to compensate for his embarrassing defeat in the Indigo League).

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                            How was Iris like Misty? Iris was such an annoyance. What was her purpose? They needed a female character, and they created Iris. Absolutely nothing about her stands out, other than her irritating squeaky voice, horrendous hair and her repetitive remarks. "yOu'Re sUcH a kId." Misty at least was a gym leader and wasn't constantly nagging Ash. She was likeable, she was sweet and compassionate. Dawn and May in my opinion are much better than Iris. (Now, of course, this is simply my own opinion. You are entitled to yours as I am entitled to mine.) They were fully dimensional and real. They had insecurities and doubted themselves at times. Growing up, as a young girl, I really appreciate the humanity that those two had. I felt like they were easy to connect with and relate to. (Although, May was borderline a bit too emotional. She appeared to be constantly tormented by her own self-deprecating thoughts and feelings.)

                            As for Sun and Moon, I haven't watched a whole lot of it but from what I have seen, it isn't all that awful. Personally, the only real issue I have with it is the animation. Of course, as I previously stated, I have only seem partial clips and certain episodes of the series.
                            I'll be blunt, at least Iris and Misty didn't seem like they were the same type of characterization as those jerks from Love Hina or even the Fiorello Fangirls from Princess vs. Princess, while May and Dawn unfortunately came far too close to that for comfort from what I observed. That's what I meant by that. And May... look, if she doesn't like Pokémon, fine, but don't bother going on a Pokémon journey when you hate Pokémon, it insults the entire point, and besides, why the heck would she hate them when she came from a gym leader family. Misty and Brock didn't hate Pokémon at all, heck, not even Jessie and James hated Pokémon, and they were members of an organization that tries to outright murder Pokémon. And don't get me started on her more cowardly actions toward Manaphy, a Pokémon that was effectively her son, when Phantom abducted it in the climax of her movie, resulting in Ash having to save the day YET again. Sheesh, people complained about Misty's interactions with Togepi, yet at least with those two, Misty can be counted on to immediately try to save her child when it was in danger, or at least search for it. And it's a shame, because that movie came close to redeeming May in my eyes to an extent. Heck, at least Iris wasn't designed to be sexual eyecandy, which actually was somewhat refreshing especially after Hidaka's more infamous remark back in 2008 in a certain interview with Pokebeach.

                            As far as Sun and Moon, it's bad because Ash, similar to Misty in GCYL, was pretty much forced to put his goal of becoming a Pokémon master on the sideburner to effectively go to school, something which he NEVER demonstrated any need to do since Kanto with Pokémon Tech and that League exam. If he didn't need school for 20 years, why the heck would he need to go there NOW? Didn't help either that, until SM043 pretty much confirmed there would in fact be a Pokémon League in Alola starting up, Ash was basically not even going to pursue his goal (and CoroCoro if anything implied he changed his goal to "graduate like never before"). If anything, as much as I dislike the art style, that was the LEAST of its problems. It's even worse than Best Wishes. At least Best Wishes still let Ash actually pursue his goal. And the only reason this occurred is because those stupid writers completely lacked any foresight when planning the Kalos league, opted to have Ash lose as runner up despite giving repeated hints that he'd actually WIN this time around, not to mention the details for the then-upcoming Gen VII games pointing to there at the very least not being any gyms, possibly no Pokémon league as well.
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                            Old January 12th, 2019 (6:42 PM). Edited January 12th, 2019 by MysticalNinetales.
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                            I'll be blunt, at least Iris and Misty didn't seem like they were the same type of characterization as those jerks from Love Hina or even the Fiorello Fangirls from Princess vs. Princess, while May and Dawn unfortunately came far too close to that for comfort from what I observed. That's what I meant by that. And May... look, if she doesn't like Pokémon, fine, but don't bother going on a Pokémon journey when you hate Pokémon, it insults the entire point, and besides, why the heck would she hate them when she came from a gym leader family. Misty and Brock didn't hate Pokémon at all, heck, not even Jessie and James hated Pokémon, and they were members of an organization that tries to outright murder Pokémon. And don't get me started on her more cowardly actions toward Manaphy, a Pokémon that was effectively her son, when Phantom abducted it in the climax of her movie, resulting in Ash having to save the day YET again. Sheesh, people complained about Misty's interactions with Togepi, yet at least with those two, Misty can be counted on to immediately try to save her child when it was in danger, or at least search for it. And it's a shame, because that movie came close to redeeming May in my eyes to an extent. Heck, at least Iris wasn't designed to be sexual eyecandy, which actually was somewhat refreshing especially after Hidaka's more infamous remark back in 2008 in a certain interview with Pokebeach.
                            Why are you so fixated on May's supposed "hatred of pokemon"? She initially was afraid of them, which I think is reasonable considering they are creatures with immense power that can be unpredictable. Plus, it was revealed that she had a negative experience. If you were attacked by a large dog say, it'd be normal for you to be slightly traumatized or afraid of said dog breed. It's the same situation. Also, she doesn't "hate" pokemon. She got over her fear which is why she is embarking on a journey to be a pokemon coordinator. If she truly hated pokemon, she wouldn't have traveled alongside Ash. Also, it is clear that she loves her pokemon as she is visibly affectionate towards them. I'm failing to understand your argument, I think you're really going out on a limb.
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                            Old January 12th, 2019 (7:29 PM). Edited January 12th, 2019 by weedle_mchairybug.
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                              Why are you so fixated on May's supposed "hatred of pokemon"? She initially was afraid of them, which I think is reasonable considering they are creatures with immense power that can be unpredictable. Plus, it was revealed that she had a negative experience. If you were attacked by a large dog say, it'd be normal for you to be slightly traumatized or afraid of said dog breed. It's the same situation. Also, she doesn't "hate" pokemon. She got over her fear which is why she is embarking on a journey to be a pokemon coordinator. If she truly hated pokemon, she wouldn't have traveled alongside Ash. Also, it is clear that she loves her pokemon as she is visibly affectionate towards them. I'm failing to understand your argument, I think you're really going out on a limb.
                              Fine, she disliked them initially, doesn't make too much of a difference in the end since she shouldn't have bothered going on a journey at all if she disliked them. My late grandpa always said that if you're going to pursue a lifelong career, it should be something you actually enjoy. At most, she'd only have a bad experience with Tentacool, not Pokémon in general. Lillie if you ask me did the whole thing a LOT better, at least she didn't get her first Pokémon, let alone become an actual Pokémon trainer, until AFTER she conquered her fear of them. To put it another way, there was a Nurse Joy who was afraid of treating Pokémon back in Johto, and she was largely treated negatively for it. May doing that just struck me the wrong way. And for the record, she didn't need Pokémon to have an excuse to go traveling. Did Seymour the Scientist have any Pokémon on hand? Absolutely not, and he obviously travels.

                              And in any case, you might want to look up Love Hina, particularly the Hinata inn residents to see EXACTLY what I mean by May and Dawn's characterizations.
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                              Old January 14th, 2019 (5:41 PM).
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                              Fine, she disliked them initially, doesn't make too much of a difference in the end since she shouldn't have bothered going on a journey at all if she disliked them. My late grandpa always said that if you're going to pursue a lifelong career, it should be something you actually enjoy. At most, she'd only have a bad experience with Tentacool, not Pokémon in general. Lillie if you ask me did the whole thing a LOT better, at least she didn't get her first Pokémon, let alone become an actual Pokémon trainer, until AFTER she conquered her fear of them. To put it another way, there was a Nurse Joy who was afraid of treating Pokémon back in Johto, and she was largely treated negatively for it. May doing that just struck me the wrong way. And for the record, she didn't need Pokémon to have an excuse to go traveling. Did Seymour the Scientist have any Pokémon on hand? Absolutely not, and he obviously travels.

                              And in any case, you might want to look up Love Hina, particularly the Hinata inn residents to see EXACTLY what I mean by May and Dawn's characterizations.
                              Alright, I see no point continuing this argument. May chose Torchic because she was attempting to overcome her fear. Again, I don't understand your fixation with May's initial fear of pokemon. It is a minimal part of who she is as a character. You act as though it shaped her into who she was throughout the anime, when in reality, it was a piece of her past that lost significance early on. I love both May and Dawn and I like their characterizations. Googling something isn't going to alter my perception of them. Anyway, we've gone astray here and we can agree to disagree.
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                              Old January 17th, 2019 (6:06 PM). Edited January 17th, 2019 by Quiji.
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                                I'm sorry, but OS was no better at "developing" characters than AG/DP were, at least as far as Ash was concerned. Ash has never really developed well overall since his skills as a trainer shift between mediocre and talented at the drop of a hat just to suit the plot. His OS teams in particular were utter crap, especially his final line-up in Kanto; like, how the hell was a team consisting of Pikachu, Squirtle, Bulbasaur, Pidgeotto, a disobedient/unreliable/sabotaging Charizard, and an empty slot objectively better than say, Ash's final DP team?
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                                Old January 17th, 2019 (6:36 PM). Edited January 19th, 2019 by weedle_mchairybug.
                                weedle_mchairybug weedle_mchairybug is offline
                                   
                                  Join Date: Apr 2005
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                                  Quote:
                                  Originally Posted by Quiji View Post
                                  I'm sorry, but OS was no better at "developing" characters than AG/DP were, at least as far as Ash was concerned. Ash has never really developed well overall since his skills as a trainer shift between mediocre and talented at the drop of a hat just to suit the plot. His OS teams in particular were utter crap, especially his final line-up in Kanto; like, how the hell was a team consisting of Pikachu, Squirtle, Bulbasaur, Pidgeotto, a disobedient/unreliable/sabotaging Charizard, and an empty slot objectively better than say, Ash's final DP team?
                                  At least during the Indigo League, he hadn't beaten a Legendary before with Pikachu or any of his Pokémon (not to mention a Legendary that was explicitly under ownership of a trainer), while in DP, Pikachu STILL lost despite fighting a Regice and beating it single-handedly.

                                  As far as the OS, Ash started off at Top 16, then got to Top 8 by the end of the same series, and even beat his longtime rival. That alone gave him FAR more development than AG and DP did, especially when they barely treat past series as canon. Heck, even in the start of Johto, at least Gary was implied to have undergone massive training offscreen for his Eevee to beat Pikachu, while in the end of AG, Gary managed to beat Pikachu despite the fact that the latter managed to single-handedly beat a friggin' Regice in short order, but also the no small fact that Gary explicitly retired as a trainer to follow Professor Oak's footsteps as a researcher, meaning there was absolutely no way Gary could go toe-to-toe with Pikachu at all in that situation, let alone beat him.
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