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Shooting in Jacksonville, Florida

316
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6
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I'm sorry but if you're against gun control at this point, after so many lives has been lost, I seriously question your sense.
How many kids need to die in schools?
People in clubs?
People just out and about?
How many before you look at this and say "it's enough"?

Guns.Are.The.Issue. You just need to look at other countries with gun control laws, this doesn't happen nearly as much as the states.

The second amendment is BS, how is carrying a deadly weapon a right? Have the amendments even been looked at since the 1800s where maybe this would have been relevant? But it's 2018 now.

True, there's a REASON why Europe doesn't have the same sort of gun rights America does. This isn't the 18th Century anymore after all... If you feel the need to go outside packing heat, you certainly have issues.
 
25,439
Posts
11
Years
True, there's a REASON why Europe doesn't have the same sort of gun rights America does. This isn't the 18th Century anymore after all... If you feel the need to go outside packing heat, you certainly have issues.

I find it weird I'm the one saying this, since we're for the most part on the same side of the debate, but nothing is ever achieved by hollow criticism alone. I feel like the other side would be a lot more willing to talk to you, and others like you, on a level playing field if you were willing to talk about realistic solutions to the problem instead of playing the blame game.
 
18,257
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10
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I find it weird I'm the one saying this, since we're for the most part on the same side of the debate, but nothing is ever achieved by hollow criticism alone. I feel like the other side would be a lot more willing to talk to you, and others like you, on a level playing field if you were willing to talk about realistic solutions to the problem instead of playing the blame game.

But isn't it past that point? We talk about screening for potential owners, limiting certain types of guns (like automatic military ones that apparently you can get in walmart), etc but it hasn't worked. People are so needlessly clinging to their "2nd amendment".
And plus it's been going on for too long, there needs to be change, no more discussion.
 
25,439
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11
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But isn't it past that point? We talk about screening for potential owners, limiting certain types of guns (like automatic military ones that apparently you can get in walmart), etc but it hasn't worked. People are so needlessly clinging to their "2nd amendment".
And plus it's been going on for too long, there needs to be change, no more discussion.

You think pushing harder for even greater reform is going be what sways them? That's going to make people more defensive and less willing to compromise. I'm the first to say that the gun-nuts are out of their minds and that there's a huge gun problem in the US but going to greater and greater extremes to try and change people's minds is going to have the opposite effect.

America's gun culture is too vast for the whole thing to be changed overnight. It's going to be a long process. We need to have an open dialogue and have actual communication to start that process and to keep it running smoothly. Start small and celebrate the small victories.
 
18,257
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From my experience, and from looking at the world, its usually violent revolution that leads to change. Forcefulness that leads to change.
Why talk it out with people who can look at a tragedy like Sandy Hook and say nothing about it.
 
25,439
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11
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From my experience, and from looking at the world, its usually violent revolution that leads to change. Forcefulness that leads to change.
Why talk it out with people who can look at a tragedy like Sandy Hook and say nothing about it.

How would a violent revolution help remedy this problem in any way shape or form? You talk it out with them because that's the way forward. You don't have to like it, it's about being practical.
 
316
Posts
6
Years
I find it weird I'm the one saying this, since we're for the most part on the same side of the debate, but nothing is ever achieved by hollow criticism alone. I feel like the other side would be a lot more willing to talk to you, and others like you, on a level playing field if you were willing to talk about realistic solutions to the problem instead of playing the blame game.

You're right on that least. It's just I've had this anti-gun attitude ever since Las Vegas and Parkland. I just can't help it really...
 

Nah

15,927
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I mean, just because that's typically (but not always) been the case in the past doesn't mean that it has to be or will always be that way. Or does no one believe that people can change?

Most people in this country don't like all the shootings we've been having over the years. It's just that there's not exactly a whole lot we (as in the everyday American) can really do about it either.

limiting certain types of guns (like automatic military ones that apparently you can get in walmart)
You can't actually buy an automatic in Walmarts here. Not all of them even carry any guns at all. I've never seen guns in any of the Walmarts I've ever been to here in New Jersey.

As it is, sale of automatic firearms manufactured after 1986 (it's 1986 because that was the year the law was passed) is prohibited by federal law. And as far as I know, pre-1986 automatics aren't exactly a cheap or easy to find class of weapons.
 

Hands

I was saying Boo-urns
1,879
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7
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  • Age 33
  • Seen Dec 15, 2022
I mean, just because that's typically (but not always) been the case in the past doesn't mean that it has to be or will always be that way. Or does no one believe that people can change?

Most people in this country don't like all the shootings we've been having over the years. It's just that there's not exactly a whole lot we (as in the everyday American) can really do about it either.


You can't actually buy an automatic in Walmarts here. Not all of them even carry any guns at all. I've never seen guns in any of the Walmarts I've ever been to here in New Jersey.

As it is, sale of automatic firearms manufactured after 1986 (it's 1986 because that was the year the law was passed) is prohibited by federal law. And as far as I know, pre-1986 automatics aren't exactly a cheap or easy to find class of weapons.

Full autos and burst fires are pretty hard to get, though it's a.scare tactic anyway. Every military in the world teaches semi auto as standard because it's the most effective. Full auto only really is used for pinning targets down
 
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18,257
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10
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How would a violent revolution help remedy this problem in any way shape or form? You talk it out with them because that's the way forward. You don't have to like it, it's about being practical.

World War II wasn't won by talking it out.
The american revolution wasn't talking it out.
Many oppressive regimes fell because the citizens stood up.
 
1,824
Posts
5
Years
  • Age 37
  • Seen Nov 4, 2018
I'm sorry but if you're against gun control at this point, after so many lives has been lost, I seriously question your sense.
How many kids need to die in schools?
People in clubs?
People just out and about?
How many before you look at this and say "it's enough"?

Guns.Are.The.Issue. You just need to look at other countries with gun control laws, this doesn't happen nearly as much as the states.

The second amendment is BS, how is carrying a deadly weapon a right? Have the amendments even been looked at since the 1800s where maybe this would have been relevant? But it's 2018 now.

This sums up my rebuttal pretty well:
ncKbvAn.jpg


You are aware that almost every mass shooting has happened in "gun free zones"... the strategy doesn't work. Criminals don't follow laws. All you do is make it harder for responsible gun owners to defend themselves.

Ever heard of a mass shooting at an NRA convention? I wonder why.
Because it's full of guns in the right hands.

Blame the people, not the equipment.
 

Nah

15,927
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10
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  • Age 31
  • Seen yesterday
World War II wasn't won by talking it out.
The american revolution wasn't talking it out.
Many oppressive regimes fell because the citizens stood up.
Sometimes force is required to solve a problem yes.

But it also cannot solve every problem either.
 
1,743
Posts
6
Years
I fail to comprehend the apparent obsession that certain Americans have with guns and the need to "defend themselves."

Who are they defending themselves from, exactly?

Criminals? Well, criminals inhabit every country on the planet, yet America is seemingly the only nation where people so adamantly need to own a gun for protective purposes. It just intrigues me.

It is absurd, however, to view guns as the only problem. Sure, they play a huge role and I'm all for stricter policies in regards to firearms. But, that being said, it is important to understand that criminals or psychopathic individuals will try to harm others with or without the use of guns. Miscreants and those fueled by hatred and apathy are the problem. It is quite disheartening to see media outlets exclusively focus on the weapon used in a mass shooting, rather than the individual responsible for said shooting or even the innocent victims who lost their lives.
 
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316
Posts
6
Years
I fail to comprehend the apparent obsession that certain Americans have with guns and the need to "defend themselves."

Who are they defending themselves from, exactly?

Criminals? Well, criminals inhabit every country on the planet, yet America is seemingly the only nation where people so adamantly need to own a gun for protective purposes. It just intrigues me.

It is absurd, however, to view guns as the only problem. Sure, they play a huge role and I'm all for stricter policies in regards to firearms. But, that being said, it is important to understand that criminals or psychopathic individuals will try to harm others with or without the use of guns. Miscreants and those fueled by hatred and apathy are the problem. It is quite disheartening to see media outlets exclusively focus on the weapon used in a mass shooting, rather than the individual responsible for said shooting or even the innocent victims who lost their lives.

EU sure has the right idea when all of it's members states doesn't have any gun rights in first place. If we can do just fine without guns then I'm sure America can as well. Sure, it's a big country and what not. Having sufficient coverage by the emergency services should help a lot (i. e. they must respond within 8 minutes or less for example).
 
25,439
Posts
11
Years
EU sure has the right idea when all of it's members states doesn't have any gun rights in first place. If we can do just fine without guns then I'm sure America can as well. Sure, it's a big country and what not. Having sufficient coverage by the emergency services should help a lot (i. e. they must respond within 8 minutes or less for example).

Sure, I agree. But you never actually pose solutions. Just hating the gun culture isn't enough.
 

Altairis

take me ☆ take you
5,188
Posts
11
Years
Employing people trained to do an actual mental health screening so there was an up-to-date test for any of the common disorders would be good, rather than just checking if they've been in a psych ward anywhere. Not just an easily-lied-to questionnaire either, I think if a professional has concerns even if all the right answers are given, then those concerns should trump all else.

I don't even know if we do that here but maybe we should.

I definitely think that professionals should be involved and that if people want to buy a gun they should be willing to wait until the whole process is done. It's sort of crazy how fast the whole thing is to get "cleared." I was just sort of wondering what they should be looking for, since there are several studies done that show that people with mental illnesses are actually more likely to be victims of violent acts, not perpetrators. And should they be re-tested eventually?

Unless you mean like any mental health diagnoses = inability to buy a gun. I don't really know how I feel about this, since it seems like that's where some public figures have been heading, it seems sorta likely, even though there's a potential for huge misconceptions

(also sorry if I come off as disagreeing for the sake of it, I am just trying to clarify my own position as well haha. I do agree there's a problem, at the very least)

I fail to comprehend the apparent obsession that certain Americans have with guns and the need to "defend themselves."

Who are they defending themselves from, exactly?

Criminals? Well, criminals inhabit every country on the planet, yet America is seemingly the only nation where people so adamantly need to own a gun for protective purposes. It just intrigues me.

It is absurd, however, to view guns as the only problem. Sure, they play a huge role and I'm all for stricter policies in regards to firearms. But, that being said, it is important to understand that criminals or psychopathic individuals will try to harm others with or without the use of guns. Miscreants and those fueled by hatred and apathy are the problem. It is quite disheartening to see media outlets exclusively focus on the weapon used in a mass shooting, rather than the individual responsible for said shooting or even the innocent victims who lost their lives.

I don't really think comparing USA to the EU is fair, considering how large the USA is and it's one country. There are huge parts of America where emergency services are either 1) too slow or 2) not present. And research has shown that where police are not present, literally or in their ability to reinforce laws, then crime goes up, and not just gun crime. I'm not sure if the people you're thinking of are the people in these areas, but chances are they're the people in the cities, and you're right, they generally have the police working to protect them. But a lot of people don't have that luxury and while I agree that's a problem as well, it won't stop other crimes happening in these areas.
 
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25,439
Posts
11
Years
I definitely think that professionals should be involved and that if people want to buy a gun they should be willing to wait until the whole process is done. It's sort of crazy how fast the whole thing is to get "cleared." I was just sort of wondering what they should be looking for, since there are several studies done that show that people with mental illnesses are actually more likely to be victims of violent acts, not perpetrators. And should they be re-tested eventually?

Unless you mean like any mental health diagnoses = inability to buy a gun. I don't really know how I feel about this, since it seems like that's where some public figures have been heading, it seems sorta likely, even though there's a potential for huge misconceptions

(also sorry if I come off as disagreeing for the sake of it, I am just trying to clarify my own position as well haha. I do agree there's a problem, at the very least)

People with mental illnesses are also more likely to use a weapon on themselves. I think any way you look at it you're saving lives. I won't say where the line for able to own a gun vs not able to is because I'm not a psychologist, but I think at the least there's a lot of conditions or mental states that are dangerous to the self or others when combined with access to a firearm.

I've got depression and a generalised anxiety disorder, I think that even though I am a logical and responsible person, it would be unsafe for me to own a gun, for example.

I think re-testing certainly couldn't hurt but I don't think you should be given a second try if you fail to be honest.
 

ShinyUmbreon189

VLONE coming soon
1,461
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12
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I'm just concerned over the lives of Americans, that's all. How many mass shootings will it take for people to seriously take a look into their gun problem I wonder...

It's not a gun problem! I understand your concern for American citizens but we got more to worry about than mass murderers. Even with all the mass shootings more people die in drunk driving accidents than gun violence, think about that. More people die from substance abuse than gun violence. Drug abuse deaths in 2017 was over 30 THOUSAND where gun violence is only half that. The problem is, drugs and drunk driving are both against the law. What makes you think banning guns will be any different? Besides, it's easier to shoot up a gun free zone than a place where guns are allowed. Gun free zone = slim to no chance of someone having a firearm where as if it's not a gun free zone the numbers could fluctuate. But please tell me how banning guns will stop gun violence. Elaborate, and do it in a realistic way.
 
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Hands

I was saying Boo-urns
1,879
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It's not a gun problem! I understand your concern for American citizens but we got more to worry about than mass murderers. Even with all the mass shootings more people die in drunk driving accidents than gun violence, think about that. More people die from substance abuse than gun violence. Drug abuse deaths in 2017 was over 30 THOUSAND where gun violence is only half that. The problem is, drugs and drunk driving are both against the law. What makes you think banning guns will be any different? Besides, it's easier to shoot up a gun free zone than a place where guns are allowed. Gun free zone = slim to no chance of someone having a firearm where as if it's not a gun free zone the numbers could fluctuate. But please tell me how banning guns will stop gun violence. Elaborate, and do it in a realistic way.

No one has ever killed 16 kids by overdosing in a school, they're non comparable
 
25,439
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11
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I've never got the "guns don't kill people, people do" argument. Sure, a gun doesn't have intent of its own but it's a tool designed specifically to kill things. If you have a people killing people problem, having easy access to guns just exacerbates that problem and stricter gun control is still part of a solution.
 
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