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  #1    
Old January 7th, 2018 (12:34 PM). Edited January 11th, 2018 by Juno.
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A few days late and I wasn't sure if belonged in E&M because of its platform or this forum, but because of the more serious topics it touches on, I feel it's more suitable for D&D.

For those out of the loop, on New Years Day, one of the biggest vloggers on YouTube decided to release a video where he and his friends visit the Aokigahara Forest, otherwise known as the suicide forest because of how frequently people go specifically to end their lives there. A lot of people have vlogged there in the past, but what is unthinkable to most is finding an actual suicide victim in the forest - and then filming them up close.

This video was problematic for many reasons, as you can imagine - the topic of suicide is very sensitive for many, but Logan Paul and his friends were filmed making jokes and making light of the situation in some pretty distasteful ways, and while blurred, filming the body of a man who recently took his own life understandably made a lot of people pretty upset.

The video has since been taken down (but obviously reuploaded by many, if you want to see it) and Logan has apologized twice, once on Twitter and when that didn't do anything for him he also made a video apology. A lot of people have had a lot to say about this over the past week, what are your thoughts and opinions on Logan Paul's actions?


I did a very quick rundown of the situation, and I'm sorry if it's not a very complete summary, but I didn't want to put the video here or anything so if you want to know more, I recommend looking into it a bit yourself; there's been no shortage of info on it this past week. A video I will post is one that - I don't want to say disgusted me more than the suicide forest one - but made me hate him even more were the clips of what he was doing in Japan outside of making that vlog. The amount of disrespect and disregard for other people in general was just mind blowing.

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Old January 7th, 2018 (1:42 PM).
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I'm glad the guy has enough self-awareness to upload a legitimate apology. His first twitter-written apology was laughable -- pretty much just talking about his channel and denying his intention was to clickbait (yeah, right -- anyone who's seen the video's thumbnail would conclude the video was meant to be the holy grail of clickbaits). The video apology seems authentic and acknowledges that it was disgusting, disrespectful, childish and stupid.

The WORST part is his blind followers will back him up no matter what. They forgave him after his twitter apology. And would defend him after others -- rightfully so -- wouldn't accept it. How unfortunate that an immature early-20-something has such powerful influence over several millions of young viewers.

I've not watched many of his vlogs. I've watched the one where the local media came to interview him about disturbing the peace, and the one where he hand-delivers Post Malone's T-shirt order at his front doorstep. I mostly know him through what other critical YouTubers have said about him (namely Ethan from h3h3, iDubbbz and Phil DeFranco). I've gotten to know most of what Team 10 is through them and the repercussions of their shenanigans. "It's Everyday Bro" and his taunting narcissism about it climbing to the Top 10 of Apple's downloaded songs that day was comical. Pretty sure he tweetted something like "move over Kendrick" as the song was rising. A song he wrote in one day and a music video he produced in the next was, in his mind, enough to topple over someone like Kendrick Lamar. The ego this guy has is almost unparalleled, and he needed the serious backlash he got from the Suicide Forest video to knock him down a peg.
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Old January 7th, 2018 (2:51 PM).
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    I'm not surprised at all.

    I've followed him and other similar Youtube stars for a while, and he's exactly the type of person younger kids are drawn towards watching. He's even appeared on Jimmy Kimmel in the past, but he's probably ruined any chance of becoming bigger than a Youtube celebrity now.

    I'm also a little confused by the sudden reaction. I've seen suicide jokes thrown onto YouTube videos endlessly, and telling someone to "kill themselves" is, unfortunately, almost a normal thing. But when a video like this shows up from someone who's already disliked, everybody changes their mind and it's not okay? I question why a video like this goes viral, but nothing happens to the Youtubers with millions of subscribers who joke about drinking bleach.
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    Old January 7th, 2018 (6:40 PM).
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      He lost his meal ticket. That’s the only reason he’s sorry. Making these videos is all he has. He isn’t educated or influential or anything special. He lucked out on social media and then shot himself in the foot by trivializing suicide. Everyone pay some respect to the dead and acknowledge that this dude used someone’s suffering to get VEIWS!!!!1 This is ugly. Gross.
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      Old January 7th, 2018 (6:45 PM).
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        Originally Posted by ZeoStar View Post
        I'm not surprised at all.

        I've followed him and other similar Youtube stars for a while, and he's exactly the type of person younger kids are drawn towards watching. He's even appeared on Jimmy Kimmel in the past, but he's probably ruined any chance of becoming bigger than a Youtube celebrity now.

        I'm also a little confused by the sudden reaction. I've seen suicide jokes thrown onto YouTube videos endlessly, and telling someone to "kill themselves" is, unfortunately, almost a normal thing. But when a video like this shows up from someone who's already disliked, everybody changes their mind and it's not okay? I question why a video like this goes viral, but nothing happens to the Youtubers with millions of subscribers who joke about drinking bleach.
        I'm not gonna deny that telling someone to kill themselves in jest or otherwise is wrong; it is, and if I remember correctly if they follow through on your suggestion you can actually be charged with their death. But what Logan did was different; he didn't simply just tell someone to drink bleach and die. He went to the 2nd place location in the world for suicides with the explicit intent to look for the bodies of suicide victims, finds one.... and laughs at it while filming it. I know people can react in strange ways to seeing a corpse for the first time, but the fact he made a video on the backs of suicide victims to try and get popular is a really rotten move, as well as a poorly thought out one. I have no idea why he thought going to Aokigahara would be a good choice for getting more views, but honestly I kinda think he deserves the hot water he's getting simply for not thinking that one through; there was a dozen other places in Japan he could have went to if he wanted to document it and not laugh at unidentified corpses in the middle of a forest. The only way this could have been worse is if he went to Auschwitz and acted like an idiot in front of the gas chambers.

        In short one is bad, while the other crosses the line, takes a step back, crosses it again, stands squarely on it and then dances on it. If any of the Youtubers joking about killing people actually went to their rooms after they killed themselves and filmed it it would be on the same level; there's quite a big gap between encouraging suicide unintentionally or otherwise and then filming the results and chuckling at it.
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        Old January 7th, 2018 (7:22 PM).
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        Let's be honest, Howtobasic puts out better content than this guy.

        If this is what a celebrityis in 2017, I am very afraid for the future.

        His video in the suicide forest is, at best, tasteless, at worst, absolutely disgusting.

        I've heard people say kids are getting dumber and dumber with each passing generation, and the Paul's (both of them) popularity seriously makes me consider that may be the truth. Anyone with two brain cells to rub can't possibly find them even mildly entertaining!
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        Old January 7th, 2018 (7:27 PM).
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        I've not watched many of his vlogs. I've watched the one where the local media came to interview him about disturbing the peace, and the one where he hand-delivers Post Malone's T-shirt order at his front doorstep. I mostly know him through what other critical YouTubers have said about him (namely Ethan from h3h3, iDubbbz and Phil DeFranco). I've gotten to know most of what Team 10 is through them and the repercussions of their shenanigans. "It's Everyday Bro" and his taunting narcissism about it climbing to the Top 10 of Apple's downloaded songs that day was comical. Pretty sure he tweetted something like "move over Kendrick" as the song was rising. A song he wrote in one day and a music video he produced in the next was, in his mind, enough to topple over someone like Kendrick Lamar. The ego this guy has is almost unparalleled, and he needed the serious backlash he got from the Suicide Forest video to knock him down a peg.
        The guy you're talking about here is Logan's (the thread subject) brother, Jake. However I do agree that I like that he took the effort to really put forth what seems like a genuine apology. Although he does regret his actions I hope he takes a serious look in the mirror to see what has led him to this point and attempts to change that part of himself.
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        Old January 7th, 2018 (8:19 PM).
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        His apology video has netted him tens of thousands of dollars while any criticism of him is demonetised or taken down. He is not remotely sorry and while I don't think the extent of the backlash was in the plan, it was definitely all about rage bait and he's played every single person who gave a view to his apology video. That's the real goal.
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        Old January 7th, 2018 (8:57 PM). Edited January 7th, 2018 by Juno.
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        Yeah, the sad thing is like most 'YouTube scandals', this is barely making a mark on his channel numbers-wise. Sure, he's getting dislikes and hate, but he's actually been gaining subs and views, which are what matters in making money on YT

        https://socialblade.com/youtube/channel/UCG8rbF3g2AMX70yOd8vqIZg


        The most upsetting and baffling thing for me watching this video and his other Japan vlogs is this guy is popular. Like millions and millions of subscribers popular, and it really sucks to know millions of kids like watching this guy act like a jackass on a daily basis and actually support him. This is not a first for him, this is how he acts in all his videos, to everybody, except this time the disrespect was directed towards a suicide victim.

        As a lot of people pointed out, his core fanbase does not give a muk, and actually before that video went super viral and before people outside of his fanbase started watching it, his fans liked that video a lot. This doesn't have a negative impact on his career at all.
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        Old January 7th, 2018 (9:55 PM).
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        So, I don't know much about the situation, but for this to actually be making him more popular... what would you say it says about global culture atm?
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        Old January 7th, 2018 (10:38 PM).
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          Having found and watched the original video he's definitely been incredibly awful about this situation. There's a part at the end, after the police have been called, where a member of the police comes up to him and tells him it's illegal to leave the path like he did (Which is common knowledge, he has to have known this going into it. He also planned to camp the night in Aokigahara, which is also illegal) his response was "you should've told me sooner bro".

          It's insane how disrespectful he's been about this entire debacle, his first apology was just baffling ego stroking and although the newest one is much better, it's tainted by how long it took him to say something that... wasn't awful? It's useful to remember that this isn't just some guy on youtube, he's earning obscene amounts of money and he's managed in a similar way to how traditional celebrities are. All responses should be looked at in the same lens as you look at things like Kevin Spacey's apology, just with a little bit more freedom, because there's no chance that he didn't have PR people working with him on it
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          Old January 8th, 2018 (6:18 AM).
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          I'm not terribly inclined to believe that his apology is legitimate right now. I'm much more inclined to believe that, like has been said already, he's just trying to cover his ass since the muk hit the fan for once

          The only way to know if he is really and truly sorry is to see how he goes from here on out and how he changes. We'll see what happens.


          I'm.....also really not sure what possesses one to do the stuff shown in the 2nd video in the OP -_-

          Quote:
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          So, I don't know much about the situation, but for this to actually be making him more popular... what would you say it says about global culture atm?
          it says what everybody should have realized some time ago: humanity's kinda psyducked up
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          Old January 8th, 2018 (10:41 PM).
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            Suicide is never funny. It's disgusting to profit off of people's misery. It's as clear as day, the guy is a pathetic dirtbag. It's troubling how many people support guys like this and actually find him entertaining. I can't believe there's a population of millions of people sleeping, eating, breathing on this planet that support this guy.
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            Old January 9th, 2018 (7:11 AM).
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              Suicide is never funny. It's disgusting to profit off of people's misery. It's as clear as day, the guy is a pathetic dirtbag. It's troubling how many people support guys like this and actually find him entertaining. I can't believe there's a population of millions of people sleeping, eating, breathing on this planet that support this guy.
              Human society is so fragmented and diverse of opinion that if you look hard enough there will be at least a few people that like stuff people despise, knowing full well how bad it is. Unfortunately this isn't just a case of statistics; teens and tweens apparently think this guy is funny and worth supporting, and I think that says a lot about society today if they apparently think more highly of people like Logan and his brother than they do about people who make actually meaningful videos like Action Scientist. I kinda blame social media a little bit and lack of parental intervention a little bit but it's not just one thing causing this, and really it's kind of a symptom more than it is a cause because if some other bunch of people were doing this instead of the Paul brothers they'd probably get famous instead.
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              Old January 9th, 2018 (10:46 AM).
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              I put a lot of blame for this on Youtube itself.

              They created the profession of "Youtuber" by monetizing the making of stupid videos for ad revenue. Thoughtless videos have existed for a long time, but Youtube put money into the mix and now money drives, to some degree, what gets popular and what people expect to see. Youtubers are incentivized to think about views before any other effects or consequences. Not to say that all do, but compared to, for instance, an artist sharing their music or a citizen journalist sharing underreported news, they aren't so interested in sharing something with people as much as getting something from people (likes, money, fame, admiration, etc.).

              I just don't like the whole ad-based model. I wish people would put out content when they had something to share and not just because they needed another paycheck.
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              Old January 9th, 2018 (1:09 PM). Edited January 9th, 2018 by Juno.
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              I don't 100% agree with the reasoning, but YouTube does deserve criticism here for another thing - I don't believe the ad-based model and the fact that it has blown up and become a viable career is inherently bad, but it has been established for a while now that YouTube only cares about making money, and the way they cherry-pick who gets their support and who gets to be at the top has been highly criticized.

              What Logan Paul did is directly against their own rules and policy (filming a dead body falls under the "no violent or gory content that’s primarily intended to be shocking, sensational, or gratuitous" policy, especially if there is no educational/documentary purpose behind it, and although he tried to pass it off as "suicide awareness", most would agree his zooming in and out of the dead body and cracking jokes next to it was kind of gratuitous), but they were complicit in this whole thing. Until the backlash forced Logan Paul himself to take down his video, YouTube did not lift a finger to do anything about it. It's not like it flew under their radar - it was on trending for hours? Maybe a day? No way no one working there didn't notice and watch it.

              And it's a huge double-standard considering they don't hesitate to demonetize and throw PewDiePie under the bus every time he does anything remotely controversial. Ever since his stunts that lost him his YTRed show, and the n-word situation, he says they've been watching him like a hawk and if he makes any jokes they don't like he's instantly demonetized. That's not to say PewDiePie doesn't deserve criticism, and while I personally don't believe anything he did was as bad as what the Paul brothers do, at the very least they should be held to the same standards that he is, and clearly that's not the case.

              And to go off on a bit of a tangent, there was also the whole situation where LGBT content creators were all demonetized or something, and deemed not "kid friendly" simply because they were LGBT channels? I think they admitted to some kind of bot/automation confusion and there weren't actual humans behind a screen demonetizing creators because they talk about LGBT issues, but it's been established that YouTube can be very "strict" about what they allow on their platform - unless, of course, you bring in as many views and money as the Paul brothers and the other "Vine refugees", then you can get away with a lot.

              So I guess in a roundabout way, it is money and ads that is making YouTube a more mukty place, but it doesn't have to be a bad thing if they were more communicative with their content creators about what is allowed and what isn't, and more consistent with how they handle stuff like this.

              edit/update: YouTube tweeted a half-assed statement earlier today: https://twitter.com/YouTube/status/950847377816113153

              to which a lot of people, both creators on the platform and people who watch the content, criticized because it didn't seem genuine. Here's one from Philip DeFranco: https://twitter.com/PhillyD/status/950863985632452608
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              Old January 9th, 2018 (9:16 PM).
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                And it's a huge double-standard considering they don't hesitate to demonetize and throw PewDiePie under the bus every time he does anything remotely controversial. Ever since his stunts that lost him his YTRed show, and the n-word situation, he says they've been watching him like a hawk and if he makes any jokes they don't like he's instantly demonetized.
                I think there's kind of a difference because the demonetisation is purely algorithm based, rather than having human eyes attached to it. I'm not sure if pewdiepie doesn't know this or is saying that because he wants to play it up more as a victimisation thing. I mean, obviously there is a double standard because he got hit with more punishment than logan paul did despite logan paul breaking community guidelines way harder than he did (Although I wouldn't really say either of them can claim one did something objectively worse than the other)

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                edit/update: YouTube tweeted a half-assed statement earlier today: https://twitter.com/YouTube/status/950847377816113153
                This is just.... weird? In what world could "doing absolutely nothing" be considered "acting accordingly"?
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                Old January 10th, 2018 (5:28 PM).
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                -
                I can see your point. I take a more cynical approach when truck loads of money get involved in something that used to be for free / made for fun / less business-y. Though I think crowd sourcing is a much better way of integrating money and content and much less likely to have the same problems that Youtube has (though it has its own problems, of course).
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                Old January 10th, 2018 (6:12 PM).
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                  I'm beating a dead horse here, but who in their right mind would find a suicide corpse funny? I don't know which is more inconceivable, him laughing at the idea or his viewers laughing at the video.
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                  Old January 11th, 2018 (3:42 PM).
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                  This is the same guy who jumped over moving cars just for hits on his vine channel. Totally unsurprising that he would do something so tasteless.

                  Honestly I don't have that's nice to say. It's very clear he isn't actually sorry whatsoever, and ideally the internet will just leave him alone and let him fade into obscurity.
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                  Old January 11th, 2018 (9:48 PM).
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                  I just noticed the typo in the title how did I not pick up on "Logal" for like 5 days
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                  I think there's kind of a difference because the demonetisation is purely algorithm based, rather than having human eyes attached to it. I'm not sure if pewdiepie doesn't know this or is saying that because he wants to play it up more as a victimisation thing. I mean, obviously there is a double standard because he got hit with more punishment than logan paul did despite logan paul breaking community guidelines way harder than he did (Although I wouldn't really say either of them can claim one did something objectively worse than the other)
                  Oh, I didn't know that - might have gotten it mixed up but I just remembered hearing something like that in passing in one of his (non-serious) videos. Isn't there a way for YouTube to manually demonetize videos though? I've heard a few YouTubers complain about it in ways that seem like they were definitely targeted for specific things said. Philip DeFranco said the last time he criticized YouTube and called them out for psyducking up, his video was demonetized but I guess it's possible he just said something else in the video that happened to raise flags.

                  With all the criticisms lately, YouTube actually decided to take further actions against Logan though - I think his movie(?) has been cancelled/put on hold, and he is no longer in the Google Preferred program so he'll be making quite a bit less money than he did before.
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                  I can see your point. I take a more cynical approach when truck loads of money get involved in something that used to be for free / made for fun / less business-y. Though I think crowd sourcing is a much better way of integrating money and content and much less likely to have the same problems that Youtube has (though it has its own problems, of course).
                  Yeah, more and more creators are turning to sites like Patreon for funding because they're tired of YouTube's bullmuk and trying to figure out exactly what they want from them, what will get demonetized, etc. Although it's cool creators can make money off of it, that aspect definitely also seems to have created a lot of frustration, so I get the cynicism.
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                  Old January 11th, 2018 (10:12 PM).
                  Aliencommander1245 Aliencommander1245 is offline
                     
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                    Oh, I didn't know that - might have gotten it mixed up but I just remembered hearing something like that in passing in one of his (non-serious) videos. Isn't there a way for YouTube to manually demonetize videos though? I've heard a few YouTubers complain about it in ways that seem like they were definitely targeted for specific things said. Philip DeFranco said the last time he criticized YouTube and called them out for ****ing up, his video was demonetized but I guess it's possible he just said something else in the video that happened to raise flags.
                    So basically, after youtube got into huge advertiser trouble for running ads on things like the channels of neo-nazis they updated their machine learning algorithm in an attempt to make sure ads never run on anything "not advertiser friendly" what exactly that means has never been explained and is fairly cryptic to try and decipher. Because of this, huge amounts of videos are being hit with "we're not running ads on this" strikes effectively the instant they're uploaded. In the process of appealing this youtube makes it sound like they have a real person review the video, but in reality it seems like it's just another, different algorithm that can usually fix the mistakes of the first, but it takes so long a lot of people who earn their living through youtube have already lost a huge chunk of the money they would've earned (because most people who were going to view it have already viewed it)

                    This isn't a problem for giant channels like logan paul ect who have their channel's ad space auctioned off specifically by google through the google preferred program, but basically anyone outside of that program has had their income slashed hugely.

                    Youtube's algorithm does scan the content of videos (as well as the video's tags and descripton) to determine whether they're ad friendly, but it's not really capable of or interested in "silencing" people or anything, speaking out against youtube isn't something that can get you demonetised.

                    However, they've also rolled out a thing where you have to have something like 10k subscribers to put links to places where people can give you money into your video description, which feels like an incredibly overt attempt to stop smaller channels from using patreon and other crowdfunding sources to stabilise their income as the ad revenue is slashed massively

                    Quote:
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                    With all the criticisms lately, YouTube actually decided to take further actions against Logan though - I think his movie(?) has been cancelled/put on hold, and he is no longer in the Google Preferred program so he'll be making quite a bit less money than he did before.
                    Yeah, youtube has removed him from a "comedy" show he was part of, and put his own show/movie on hold as well as removed him from the preferred program. It's still kind of sad that he's getting the same response any outrage would, rather than having the rules of youtube actually apply to him (he hasn't been hit with a strike or anything despite breaking the community guidelines) but i'm glad he's getting some kind of actual punishment.
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                      #23    
                    Old January 13th, 2018 (11:06 PM).
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                      So, I don't know much about the situation, but for this to actually be making him more popular... what would you say it says about global culture atm?
                      It says that most people care more about getting entertained through vapid shock value while having basic human decency and being wholesome are traits that go neglected.
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                        #24    
                      Old January 15th, 2018 (11:57 AM). Edited January 15th, 2018 by Lysander.
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                      Lysander Lysander is online now
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                        Thankfully, I hadn't heard of this guy before he made the suicide video. But I'm glad he's being punished by YouTube for what he did, not just using a dead body to get views on YouTube - then faking an apology after being heavily criticised for it - but also for mocking Japanese culture.

                        What made him think it was a good idea to put that video up for his generally young and impressionable audience? Other than the views, of course. The fact that the video received over 500,000 likes is possibly the most disturbing thing to come out of this.

                        Hopefully he has his YouTube deleted. Awful human being in my opinion. Deserves all the abuse he gets.
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                          #25    
                        Old January 15th, 2018 (10:19 PM).
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                        Quote:
                        Originally Posted by Keiran View Post
                        It says that most people care more about getting entertained through vapid shock value while having basic human decency and being wholesome are traits that go neglected.
                        I think this is not a surprise. It's been the case for centuries from the gladiators to public execution.

                        What's more concerning is that despite consistent efforts, it doesn't seem to be changing. All that's happened is the medium of delivery has shifted to a faster and easier one; now, the Internet.
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