DP Ash vs XY Ash Who's The Better Trainer

SH60 · Oct 17, 2017

Meyneth said:
Um, wrong thread, but OK. Several more years of experience under his belt than Alain? Several extremely heavy hitters of his own? A FULL team, rather than being a one-trick pony? Yeah. One good Pokemon does not a good trainer make.

And if you want to use the E4 argument, then there is ZERO excuse for Ash-Greninja losing to that Mega Charizard X, because it nearly beat Diantha's Mega Gardevoir. The Champion is stronger than the Elite Four, wouldn't you say? Based on that battle alone, Ash should have easily won the Kalos League. I have yet to see a reason for this loss that makes sense.

How do you know how long Alain was a trainer? And MG could be holding back in that fight, but the megas and E4 Alain beat was going all out. and if Paul is so strong then how come he can't beat an BF and got beaten by Cynthia's Garchomp. And for the one-trick pony you can say the same for Cynthia, Diantha, and Steven.

Alexander18 · Oct 19, 2017

DP Ash is better. He manages to beat a Darkrai and a Latios. He does not release his powerhouse likes XY Ash.

Sinnoh series was the last good series before it went down hill in my opinion. Unova and Kalos was just awful. Alola series is just as bad.

So DP Ash is the best Ash of the entire show in my personal opinion.

SH60 · Oct 19, 2017

Alexander18 said:
DP Ash is better. He manages to beat a Darkrai and a Latios. He does not release his powerhouse likes XY Ash.

Sinnoh series was the last good series before it went down hill in my opinion. Unova and Kalos was just awful. Alola series is just as bad.

So DP Ash is the best Ash of the entire show in my personal opinion.

1. Can you lay off on your bias.
2. I say that XY Ash can win with mid diff, all he needs to do is get over Infernape and after that XY Ash has a good chance of winning.

Piii · Oct 19, 2017

Meyneth said:
But when you think about it, Ash's competition for the Kalos League was pretty poor, comparatively speaking - Sawyer is hardly Paul, and Alain is definitely not on the same level as Tobias. Putting XY Ash in DP Ash's position for a minute, do you really think he would have fared any better against Tobias than DP Ash did?

I'm genuinely curious as to your views on that, as I think he would have done worse - Darkrai would have obliterated Hawlucha, Noivern, and Goodra, Ash-Greninja would have taken out Darkrai and then been taken out by Latios, Talonflame would have fared no better than Swellow did, and Pikachu wouldn't have tied with it because it didn't have Volt Tackle. I realise that rests under the assumption that the battle would have played out similarly, but there's no reason to believe Ash wouldn't have started with Hawlucha for the type advantage. He may have saved Noivern I suppose, but it doesn't seem likely.

DP Ash wasn't any better then XY Ash.

XY Ash was a much better trainer then DP Ash, because he train harder and his Kalos team were fully evolve, the only ones that are not fully evolve were Pikachu and Hawlucha which doesn't have an evolve form.

If you're going to compare DP Ash and XY Ash in terms of achievements, you need to compare their opponents as well, and Paul is arguably stronger than any of the trainers Ash faced in Kalos, Alain included - he has league victories under his belt, repeatedly demolishes Ash over the course of the series, and has a much stronger team than Alain who, like Ash, relies solely on one Pokemon to carry him through Kalos for the most part. It's pretty unfair to judge DP Ash as the weaker trainer just because his opponents are stronger.

Paul is a really strong trainer, but it's pretty clear that he wasn't the strongest trainer. Because if he was the strongest trainer he wouldn't have lost to one of The Battle Frontier Brains, and he would have tied with Cynthia instead of losing to her, as for Tobias he was a very poorly done one time rival character that had no personality or character development, the writers just throw him in there to make Ash lose the Pokemon League.

weedle_mchairybug · Oct 19, 2017

Piii said:
Paul is a really strong trainer, but it's pretty clear that he wasn't the strongest trainer. Because if he was the strongest trainer he wouldn't have lost to one of The Battle Frontier Brains, and he would have tied with Cynthia instead of losing to her, as for Tobias he was a very poorly done one time rival character that had no personality or character development, the writers just throw him in there to make Ash lose the Pokemon League.

Agreed, though I ultimately prefer Tobias to Cameron, at least Tobias actually KNEW what he was doing.

I will say this much, though: I really hated how Paul beat Ash immediately after losing to Brandon, or more accurately, how he beat Pikachu. I mean, for crying out loud! Pikachu, the same Pokémon of Ash's that single-handedly beat Brandon's Regice, should have wiped the floor with Paul, certainly not lose to a comparatively rookie Pokémon like Ursaring (since that Pokémon was explicitly caught in Sinnoh). Instead, like pretty much ALL of DP, and to a certain extent, Pikachu losing to Gary's Electivire despite Gary not even being a Pokémon trainer anymore back in AG, Ash's win in the Battle Frontier, pretty much his only true accomplishment in AG (due to not even getting a better rank in Hoenn, just staying at the same rank he did in Johto), was treated as a complete joke.

Piii · Oct 19, 2017

weedle_mchairybug said:
Agreed, though I ultimately prefer Tobias to Cameron, at least Tobias actually KNEW what he was doing.

I will say this much, though: I really hated how Paul beat Ash immediately after losing to Brandon, or more accurately, how he beat Pikachu. I mean, for crying out loud! Pikachu, the same Pokémon of Ash's that single-handedly beat Brandon's Regice, should have wiped the floor with Paul, certainly not lose to a comparatively rookie Pokémon like Ursaring (since that Pokémon was explicitly caught in Sinnoh). Instead, like pretty much ALL of DP, and to a certain extent, Pikachu losing to Gary's Electivire despite Gary not even being a Pokémon trainer anymore back in AG, Ash's win in the Battle Frontier, pretty much his only true accomplishment in AG (due to not even getting a better rank in Hoenn, just staying at the same rank he did in Johto), was treated as a complete joke.

To be honest DP treated Ash's wins like an joke, he shouldn't have lost to Paul's Ursaring, because Paul just caught the Pokemon a while back, also Gary wasn't a trainer anymore and he shouldn't have lost to his Electivire especially since he just got through defeating the Battle Frontier Brains, and as for Tobias he was far worser then Cameron put together. Tobias just came out of Nowhere and defeated Ash with Legendary Pokemon, that was nothing more but a poorly done cheap plot device.

Alexander18 · Oct 21, 2017

SH60 said:
1. Can you lay off on your bias.
2. I say that XY Ash can win with mid diff, all he needs to do is get over Infernape and after that XY Ash has a good chance of winning.

Sorry but i am in charge of my opinion so i am not gonna lay off anything. XY Ash has no chance of beating DP Ash in my opinion. XY Ash does not even have six pokemon. Goodra and Greninja were released.

SH60 · Oct 21, 2017

Alexander18 said:
Sorry but i am in charge of my opinion so i am not gonna lay off anything. XY Ash has no chance of beating DP Ash in my opinion. XY Ash does not even have six pokemon. Goodra and Greninja were released.

We are using league teams they both have 6 pokemon.
DP Ash's team vs Paul
XY Ash's team vs Alan

Alexander18 · Oct 22, 2017

SH60 said:
We are using league teams they both have 6 pokemon.
DP Ash's team vs Paul
XY Ash's team vs Alan

Even with Greninja and Goodra, DP Ash is still more likely to win than XY Ash in my opinion. DP Ash defeated legendary pokemon. XY Ash couldn't even beat Mega Charizard X.

SH60 · Oct 22, 2017

Alexander18 said:
Even with Greninja and Goodra, DP Ash is still more likely to win than XY Ash in my opinion. DP Ash defeated legendary pokemon. XY Ash couldn't even beat Mega Charizard X.

And what makes you think that DP Ash will do any better vs MC-X? And by the way MC-X beaten 10 megas in a row and beaten a E4 ace mega and battled legendarys as well. And I bet you that XY Ash could beat the same legendarys that DP Ash beaten with the same team DP Ash used.

Alexander18 · Oct 22, 2017

SH60 said:
And what makes you think that DP Ash will do any better vs MC-X? And by the way MC-X beaten 10 megas in a row and beaten a E4 ace mega and battled legendarys as well. And I bet you that XY Ash could beat the same legendarys that DP Ash beaten with the same team DP Ash used.

DP Ash would have still lost to Alain because Ash is not allowed to win leagues. That is the rule of the anime. And no, XY Ash would not have been able to beat legendaries. He is weaker than DP Ash. Ash-Greninja would have no chance against Tobias, Brandon and Noland.

Kostas · Oct 22, 2017

And how do you know this? I mean, Greninja almost won against diantha's gardevoir while DP Ash couldn't stand a chance against an elite four.

pkmin3033 · Oct 22, 2017

I actually think that the erratic strength of Ash-Greninja is a detriment to Ash as a trainer. He can almost take out the Champion's Gardevoir - and he WOULD have won if that battle had played out fully, let's not kid ourselves - but he can't handle one nobody's Mega Charizard X? Then consider that Gardevoir is part Fairy and Charizard part Fire. Hmm. Whilst he clearly got better at tapping into that power as time went by, he never reached that same level of power. He never brought out the full potential of Greninja, and he absolutely wasted his other Pokemon thereafter too - the anime devolved into "use Ash-Greninja to win" and little more.

Say what you will about DP Ash, but he's consistent - he improves as the series goes on, to the point that he can take down Legendaries by the end of it. He overcomes his major series rival - something XY Ash did not do, as Alain curbstomped him in the finals - and gets a noteworthy achievement as being the ONLY person to knock out Tobias' Darkrai...and a Latios on top of that, too.

I doubt XY Ash could do that, because his single most powerful Pokemon is one that he can't utilise properly. If he could, he would have stormed through every battle after Diantha, and he would have won that battle outright, too. He also refuses to use his old Pokemon, showing a distinct lack of flexibility, and he also lacks the creativity of DP Ash - he has no real strategies at all. His Pokemon are powerful, but he doesn't use them properly or to their full potential. Strength alone does not a good trainer make.

...and let's not pretend DP Ash wouldn't use his other Pokemon against XY Ash, hm? This "league teams only" nonsense is not reflective of DP Ash as a trainer, because he used a variety of Pokemon. That NEEDS to be taken into account if you're going to compare the two; it's not just about which Pokemon they caught in the region. After seeing his Sceptile barrel through Darkrai, I'd wager it'd do much the same to his Greninja.

I mean, would DP Ash REALLY use his Sinnoh team against XY Ash? After seeing him battle, DP Ash would throw a completely new team together - at the very least, Glalie would be in there. Sceptile too. Likely he'd rely on Staraptor or Gliscor to counter Talonflame, and of course Pikachu would be in there, and Volt Tackle is a hell of a lot more potent than Electro Ball. If he used Charizard, XY Ash would get demolished because as strong as Ash-Greninja is, very little gets by Ash's Charizard. Gible also has Draco Meteor, and I'd wager neither Goodra nor Noivern would like that.

SH60 · Oct 22, 2017

Meyneth said:
I actually think that the erratic strength of Ash-Greninja is a detriment to Ash as a trainer. He can almost take out the Champion's Gardevoir - and he WOULD have won if that battle had played out fully, let's not kid ourselves - but he can't handle one nobody's Mega Charizard X? Then consider that Gardevoir is part Fairy and Charizard part Fire. Hmm. Whilst he clearly got better at tapping into that power as time went by, he never reached that same level of power. He never brought out the full potential of Greninja, and he absolutely wasted his other Pokemon thereafter too - the anime devolved into "use Ash-Greninja to win" and little more.

Say what you will about DP Ash, but he's consistent - he improves as the series goes on, to the point that he can take down Legendaries by the end of it. He overcomes his major series rival - something XY Ash did not do, as Alain curbstomped him in the finals - and gets a noteworthy achievement as being the ONLY person to knock out Tobias' Darkrai...and a Latios on top of that, too.

I doubt XY Ash could do that, because his single most powerful Pokemon is one that he can't utilise properly. If he could, he would have stormed through every battle after Diantha, and he would have won that battle outright, too. He also refuses to use his old Pokemon, showing a distinct lack of flexibility, and he also lacks the creativity of DP Ash - he has no real strategies at all. His Pokemon are powerful, but he doesn't use them properly or to their full potential. Strength alone does not a good trainer make.

...and let's not pretend DP Ash wouldn't use his other Pokemon against XY Ash, hm? This "league teams only" nonsense is not reflective of DP Ash as a trainer, because he used a variety of Pokemon. That NEEDS to be taken into account if you're going to compare the two; it's not just about which Pokemon they caught in the region. After seeing his Sceptile barrel through Darkrai, I'd wager it'd do much the same to his Greninja.

I mean, would DP Ash REALLY use his Sinnoh team against XY Ash? After seeing him battle, DP Ash would throw a completely new team together - at the very least, Glalie would be in there. Sceptile too. Likely he'd rely on Staraptor or Gliscor to counter Talonflame, and of course Pikachu would be in there, and Volt Tackle is a hell of a lot more potent than Electro Ball. If he used Charizard, XY Ash would get demolished because as strong as Ash-Greninja is, very little gets by Ash's Charizard. Gible also has Draco Meteor, and I'd wager neither Goodra nor Noivern would like that.

I told you how strong that MC-X is and we are using there league teams.
For DP Ash it his team vs Paul in the league.
And for XY Ash it his team vs Alan in the league.
And if you look at XY Ash's gym battles you see he has a lot more skill than you think.

pkmin3033 · Oct 22, 2017

SH60 said:
I told you how strong that MC-X is and we are using there league teams.
For DP Ash it his team vs Paul in the league.
And for XY Ash it his team vs Alan in the league.
And if you look at XY Ash's gym battles you see he has a lot more skill than you think.

And I told you no, that's an inaccurate representation of DP Ash. I'm not budging on this. He didn't even use his Sinnoh League Pokemon in his final league match! XY Ash only has one team, which is a distinct disadvantage for him.

You could say the exact same thing about DP Ash's gym battles, really. There isn't a huge comparison to be made there.

SH60 · Oct 22, 2017

Meyneth said:
And I told you no, that's an inaccurate representation of DP Ash. I'm not budging on this. He didn't even use his Sinnoh League Pokemon in his final league match! XY Ash only has one team, which is a distinct disadvantage for him.

You could say the exact same thing about DP Ash's gym battles, really. There isn't a huge comparison to be made there.

We are using there region teams no older pokemon.

pkmin3033 · Oct 22, 2017

SH60 said:
We are using there region teams no older pokemon.

YOU are using their region teams. I am not. Or, to be more precise, I am counting the Pokemon that Ash used in the region. Which includes several of his older Pokemon. Including his Sceptile with substantially more battle experience, a type advantage over XY Ash's ace, AND a Legendary KO under its belt on top of that. That alone gives DP Ash the edge, because it trumps XY Ash's Greninja easily. Also worth noting is that Pikachu in DP is far more powerful than it is in XY, being able to tie with a Latios which has the advantage in resisting electric attacks AND being more manouevrable.

And I think the only way we'd settle the issue of Mega Charizard X would be to put it up against Diantha's Gardevoir...I somehow doubt Alain would be able to beat the Champion's ace. Purely and simply because there is no plot-relevant reason for him to do so...and I think poor Diantha has probably been made a mockery of enough in the anime, practically losing to a rookie trainer who can't even control his Pokemon properly.

SH60 · Oct 22, 2017

Meyneth said:
YOU are using their region teams. I am not. Or, to be more precise, I am counting the Pokemon that Ash used in the region. Which includes several of his older Pokemon. Including his Sceptile with substantially more battle experience, a type advantage over XY Ash's ace, AND a Legendary KO under its belt on top of that. That alone gives DP Ash the edge, because it trumps XY Ash's Greninja easily. Also worth noting is that Pikachu in DP is far more powerful than it is in XY, being able to tie with a Latios which has the advantage in resisting electric attacks AND being more manouevrable.

And I think the only way we'd settle the issue of Mega Charizard X would be to put it up against Diantha's Gardevoir...I somehow doubt Alain would be able to beat the Champion's ace. Purely and simply because there is no plot-relevant reason for him to do so...and I think poor Diantha has probably been made a mockery of enough in the anime, practically losing to a rookie trainer who can't even control his Pokemon properly.

If DP Ash need to use his older pokemon to beat XY Ash than what does that say about his region team?

pkmin3033 · Oct 22, 2017

SH60 said:
If DP Ash need to use his older pokemon to beat XY Ash than what does that say about his region team?

Absolutely nothing? You still don't get it - it's not about which Pokemon he has raised in that region. It's about the type of trainer he is: his strategies, his character development, how he responds to certain situations, etc. Ash did NOT use different Pokemon in DP because his Sinnoh team was weak. That's totally illogical nonsensel, considering he'd literally just came off a win against Paul with them. He switched his Pokemon up to best suit his opponent, rather than rely upon the same Pokemon, so that his opponents couldn't predict his strategies, and so he could best make use of the resources he had at his disposal. It had NOTHING to do with weakness.

What did XY Ash do? Rely upon Ash-Greninja to carry him through the league. I'm not denying it worked, but my point is that he has better Pokemon than Greninja, and he wouldn't use them - DP Ash would. He'd build a team designed to counter XY Ash's, and he'd win with it. In both cases, Ash was up against the eventual League Champion of that region. He lost both times, but he didn't beat Mega Charizard X, which may as well be Alain's only Pokemon for all the difference it makes. He DID, however, take out Tobias' Darkrai, AND his Latios after that. Nobody else even got to see Latios. Darkrai was Tobias' ace, and Mega Charizard X was Alain's. DP Ash won. XY Ash lost. Why? Because DP Ash is a better strategist.

...not only that, but Tobias was a MUCH stronger opponent than Alain. Legendaries > Mega Evolutions. Far more impressive that he managed to beat Darkrai at all than that he was runner-up in the league.

SH60 · Oct 22, 2017

Meyneth said:
Absolutely nothing? You still don't get it - it's not about which Pokemon he has raised in that region. It's about the type of trainer he is: his strategies, his character development, how he responds to certain situations, etc. Ash did NOT use different Pokemon in DP because his Sinnoh team was weak. That's totally illogical nonsensel, considering he'd literally just came off a win against Paul with them. He switched his Pokemon up to best suit his opponent, rather than rely upon the same Pokemon, so that his opponents couldn't predict his strategies, and so he could best make use of the resources he had at his disposal. It had NOTHING to do with weakness.

What did XY Ash do? Rely upon Ash-Greninja to carry him through the league. I'm not denying it worked, but my point is that he has better Pokemon than Greninja, and he wouldn't use them - DP Ash would. He'd build a team designed to counter XY Ash's, and he'd win with it. In both cases, Ash was up against the eventual League Champion of that region. He lost both times, but he didn't beat Mega Charizard X, which may as well be Alain's only Pokemon for all the difference it makes. He DID, however, take out Tobias' Darkrai, AND his Latios after that. Nobody else even got to see Latios. Darkrai was Tobias' ace, and Mega Charizard X was Alain's. DP Ash won. XY Ash lost. Why? Because DP Ash is a better strategist.

...not only that, but Tobias was a MUCH stronger opponent than Alain. Legendaries > Mega Evolutions. Far more impressive that he managed to beat Darkrai at all than that he was runner-up in the league.

Ok then if DP Ash can use old pokemon than XY Ash can use old pokemon. How would DP Ash know what pokemon XY Ash has if he never been to Kalos? And we are only using region pokemon for this to work because if DP Ash can switch pokemon than so can XY Ash.

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