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  #51    
Old August 8th, 2018 (3:59 PM). Edited August 8th, 2018 by Aduitt.
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Ivysaur View Post
    As someone who lived illegally in a country for a year (and paid taxes and contributed to the welfare of the locals despite getting nothing in return) while keeping my language, culture, accent and whatever, I'm 100% fine if people come to my country and do the same. After all, immigrants put more money in than they take (and I know that from experience), plus they raise birthrates! I'd like to have people paying into my retirement fund when I become old, thank you very much, and I don't really much care where they were born.

    Honestly, if you come to work and not cause trouble (which is what 99% of all immigrants do), I couldn't give a crap.
    You can only pay tax if you are either a citizen or are on a VISA.
    From what you said. You were neither citizen nor on a VISA. Therefore; you did not pay tax.

    Also, letting anyone and everyone into a country is never a good idea. We can look at places such as Norway for proof of this. Since they have made their borders near non-existent, their rape, murder, and general crime has statistically shot up. I am not saying that all immigrants are rapists or murderers. I am saying that there are those among them who are.
    I am all for helping refugees. But if you come into a country illegally and it's for no good reason... Go away!

    Note: Raising birth-rates from immigrants is not a good thing. Germany for instance, now has a higher Middle Eastern population than the Europeans who originally lived there. This is actually erasing German culture as we know it.
    Why did this happen? Because the average Middle Eastern Family have 6 children. The average German Family have 1-2.
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      #52    
    Old August 8th, 2018 (8:27 PM). Edited August 8th, 2018 by MysticalNinetales.
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Aduitt View Post
    You can only pay tax if you are either a citizen or are on a VISA.
    From what you said. You were neither citizen nor on a VISA. Therefore; you did not pay tax.

    Also, letting anyone and everyone into a country is never a good idea. We can look at places such as Norway for proof of this. Since they have made their borders near non-existent, their rape, murder, and general crime has statistically shot up. I am not saying that all immigrants are rapists or murderers. I am saying that there are those among them who are.
    I am all for helping refugees. But if you come into a country illegally and it's for no good reason... Go away!

    Note: Raising birth-rates from immigrants is not a good thing. Germany for instance, now has a higher Middle Eastern population than the Europeans who originally lived there. This is actually erasing German culture as we know it.
    Why did this happen? Because the average Middle Eastern Family have 6 children. The average German Family have 1-2.
    First of all, the information regarding Germany is incredibly incorrect.



    According to both of these websites ethnic Germans account for over 80% of the total population of Germany, with the portion of the population having a European background being a further 93-95%, thus disproving your point. I also included the fertility rates of countries located in the middle east and in fact, none surpassed 6 children per woman. The average was closer to 3. Certain countries in that region, such as Iran, have fertility rates below the replacement rate of 2.1 children born per woman. You're way off.

    You can't make such absurd claims without any sort of basis. That's not how debate works, evidence is necessary. Your bias and xenophobic opinion doesn't equate to actual fact.
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      #53    
    Old August 8th, 2018 (10:51 PM). Edited August 8th, 2018 by Aduitt.
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      Ok. I would first like to say that I made a gross overestimation on the Immigrant population in Germany. I will instead say that primarily Middle Eastern Immigrants in Germany have potential to become a majority of the populous in Germany in the Next 50-70 years.
      My Bad. I apologise for the grossly overestimated statistic.

      I would like to just post some references to some sources that differ from yours. I'm not going to continue posting on this thread after this as I would like this to remain civil. Me leaving is the best way to achieve that.

      Muslim Population Growth In Germany:
      - http://www.pewforum.org/essay/the-growth-of-germanys-muslim-population/

      Decline of German Population Growth:
      - https://www.dw.com/en/record-number-of-single-households-in-germany/a-16095252
      - http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Marriage_and_divorce_statistics

      Immigrant Population Growth In Germany:
      - https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-foreign-population-reaches-record-106-million/a-43353320

      Note:
      - I do not see how your first reference contributes to this discussion. It does not deny what I have said. It just points out the obvious.
      - I do not see how your second reference contributes to this discussion. It's statistics are that of all of Europe. I am talking about Germany. Not the entire European union.
      - This one is fair enough. The fertility rates I proposed were outlandish. This proves me wrong, rightly!
      - I cannot find your 90%-95% of all Germans having European decent in your statistics. Did you forget to reference a link or something?
      - Xenophobe... Really? I said this plain and clear in a previous comment: "If you came here illegally, Get Out! If you came here legally, feel free to stay! If your a refugee, we will do our best to help". How can you say I am xenophobic when I have stated my views as the exact opposite?

      Have a good day!
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        #54    
      Old August 9th, 2018 (12:02 AM). Edited August 9th, 2018 by MysticalNinetales.
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      Quote:
      Originally Posted by Aduitt View Post
      Note:
      - I do not see how your first reference contributes to this discussion. It does not deny what I have said. It just points out the obvious.
      The first link relates to the demography of Germany and it includes the racial composition in the country and clearly states that people of middle eastern origin are by no means a majority in Germany. Which is what you wrongly stated and was why it was included.

      Quote:
      Originally Posted by Aduitt View Post
      - I do not see how your second reference contributes to this discussion. It's statistics are that of all of Europe. I am talking about Germany. Not the entire European union.
      You obviously didn't properly read the links that I posted at all. In the second link it says that people in Germany that are from countries in the European Unions account for 90% of the country's population. It wasn't referring to the entire European union, it just stated that people from those EU countries constitute a majority of the German populous. (This includes ethnic Germans as well because Germany itself is a part of the European Union.)

      Quote:
      Originally Posted by Aduitt View Post
      - I cannot find your 90%-95% of all Germans having European decent in your statistics. Did you forget to reference a link or something?
      Again, I think you need to go over the websites that I linked. I copy and pasted from the second link where the data is clearly shown to simplify things.
      Spoiler:

      Population composition % Population[44]
      European 93.1% 76,737,000
      European Union 90.2 74,372,000
      German (excluding ethnic German repatriates)[43] 81.3 67,027,000
      Polish 2.6 1,868,000
      Romanian 1.3 1,130,000
      Italian 1.0 861,000
      Greek 0.5 443,000
      Other EU member states (primarily Spanish, Croatian, Dutch, Portuguese and Austrians) 2.5 2,061,000
      European Other 2.9 2,365,000
      Russian (including Russian-speaking ethnic Germans) 1.5 1,223,000
      Others (primarily former Yugoslavian, excluding Croatia and Slovenia)


      Quote:
      Originally Posted by Aduitt View Post
      - Xenophobe... Really? I said this plain and clear in a previous comment: "If you came here illegally, Get Out! If you came here legally, feel free to stay! If your a refugee, we will do our best to help". How can you say I am xenophobic when I have stated my views as the exact opposite?
      Perhaps I shouldn't have referred to you as a xenophobe. I do apologize. However, you seem to view immigration as a sort of threat and I'm pointing out the fact that a lot of the things that you said in your post may come across as rather xenophobic to certain individuals. May I add that none of the links you posted provide any information about illegal immigration which you seem to take issue with. For instance, the last link you posted involves the demographics of legal immigrants to Germany, not illegal ones. I don't understand your reasoning behind linking it? What's the problem with these immigrants coming to Germany legally? As you said, you see no issue with legal immigration. I never disputed the fact that Germany and other European countries receive a lot of immigrants, I just pointed out that your estimates were grossly inaccurate and seemed to be heavily biased.

      I'm not trying to argue back and forth or derail the subject at hand, I'm just attempting to clarify some things for you in a civil manner and address some of the issues I had with your initial post. You have a lovely day/night as well.
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        #55    
      Old August 9th, 2018 (12:05 AM). Edited August 9th, 2018 by Ivysaur.
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      Quote:
      Originally Posted by Aduitt View Post
      You can only pay tax if you are either a citizen or are on a VISA.
      From what you said. You were neither citizen nor on a VISA. Therefore; you did not pay tax.
      Except I did pay taxes: 21% of everything I purchased went to the government via VAT (which is a tax). And my payroll got money deducted to pay for healthcare and pensions (which I was never going to use anyway). So I did pay a good amount of tax, thank you very much. About 1,000€ in a year, total, on a monthly salary of 1,200€.

      Quote:
      Originally Posted by Aduitt View Post
      Also, letting anyone and everyone into a country is never a good idea. We can look at places such as Norway for proof of this. Since they have made their borders near non-existent, their rape, murder, and general crime has statistically shot up.
      It's funny, because it's not shooting up, actually it's been falling.

      In general, Norway has seen a significant decline in crime the latest years. There was a 4.3 percent decrease from 2015-2016, and a decline of as much as 9.6 percent from 2014. If population growth is factored in, this level of reported offences is by far the lowest in the 24 years of these statistics.[1]

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Norway

      Quote:
      I will instead say that primarily Middle Eastern Immigrants in Germany have potential to become a majority of the populous in Germany in the Next 50-70 years.
      Nah, that's impossible, unless they keep coming in a million per yer (which is no longer happening), having ridiculous fertility rates (which is not happening, and in fact, second generation immigrants tend to have fertility rates closer to the native's) and Germans stop having babies altogether. Otherwise, by 50 years, the descendants of former immigrants (which by then will be Germans) will have the same 0-2 kids as the locals, keeping their share stable at best.
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        #56    
      Old August 9th, 2018 (1:18 AM).
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        Quote:
        Originally Posted by MysticalNinetales View Post
        The first link relates to the demography of Germany and it includes the racial composition in the country and clearly states that people of middle eastern origin are by no means a majority in Germany. Which is what you wrongly stated and was why it was included.



        You obviously didn't properly read the links that I posted at all. In the second link it says that people in Germany that are from countries in the European Unions account for 90% of the country's population. It wasn't referring to the entire European union, it just stated that people from those EU countries constitute a majority of the German populous. (This includes ethnic Germans as well because Germany itself is a part of the European Union.)



        Again, I think you need to go over the websites that I linked. I copy and pasted from the second link where the data is clearly shown to simplify things.
        Spoiler:

        Population composition % Population[44]
        European 93.1% 76,737,000
        European Union 90.2 74,372,000
        German (excluding ethnic German repatriates)[43] 81.3 67,027,000
        Polish 2.6 1,868,000
        Romanian 1.3 1,130,000
        Italian 1.0 861,000
        Greek 0.5 443,000
        Other EU member states (primarily Spanish, Croatian, Dutch, Portuguese and Austrians) 2.5 2,061,000
        European Other 2.9 2,365,000
        Russian (including Russian-speaking ethnic Germans) 1.5 1,223,000
        Others (primarily former Yugoslavian, excluding Croatia and Slovenia)




        Perhaps I shouldn't have referred to you as a xenophobe. I do apologize. However, you seem to view immigration as a sort of threat and I'm pointing out the fact that a lot of the things that you said in your post may come across as rather xenophobic to certain individuals. May I add that none of the links you posted provide any information about illegal immigration which you seem to take issue with. For instance, the last link you posted involves the demographics of legal immigrants to Germany, not illegal ones. I don't understand your reasoning behind linking it? What's the problem with these immigrants coming to Germany legally? As you said, you see no issue with legal immigration. I never disputed the fact that Germany and other European countries receive a lot of immigrants, I just pointed out that your estimates were grossly inaccurate and seemed to be heavily biased.

        I'm not trying to argue back and forth or derail the subject at hand, I'm just attempting to clarify some things for you in a civil manner and address some of the issues I had with your initial post. You have a lovely day/night as well.
        I will try to explain this briefly.
        I don't believe you or anyone on here will make the debate uncivilized. I believe I will.
        I tend to get far too worked up when politics is involved, so I try to end the conversation before I go to far.
        You have been more than polite. Thank you!

        Oh, and to answer your questions, I showed statistics that included both Illegal and Legal Immigrants for more a more diverse set of statistics. I believe I used the statistics when mentioning the growth of the Immigrant populous in Germany, no? Both parties: Illegal and not contribute to this.

        As for the links I was confused about. Sorry! I only skimmed over it, so I must have misread the statistics intent.

        Have a good night!
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          #57    
        Old August 9th, 2018 (11:57 AM).
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        re: Norway crime stats, this is what I'm pretty sure is the Norwegian government's statistics bureau's site, specifically the part that deals with crime statistics:
        https://www.ssb.no/en/sosiale-forhold-og-kriminalitet?de=Crime+and+justice&innholdstype=statistikk
        https://www.ssb.no/en/sosiale-forhold-og-kriminalitet?de=Crime+and+justice&innholdstype=publikasjon-artikkel

        conveniently, a lot of it is written in English

        if people were bored and wanted to look at that
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          #58    
        Old August 10th, 2018 (7:27 AM).
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        Also we should all be aware when reading crime stats from other countries that they have different definitions for crime than the U.S. (Norway, for example, has a broader definition of “rape”). Take crime stats with a grain of salt.
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          #59    
        Old August 10th, 2018 (3:15 PM).
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          Immigration is great for the people immigrating, for the people already there there's not much to benefit from. Some business owners can find cheap labor, but for the most part it's not great to ruin an economy because ___ country can't get their sh*t together. Just my opinion..
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            #60    
          Old August 11th, 2018 (10:01 AM).
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            Quote:
            Originally Posted by Ivysaur View Post
            In general, Norway has seen a significant decline in crime the latest years. There was a 4.3 percent decrease from 2015-2016, and a decline of as much as 9.6 percent from 2014. If population growth is factored in, this level of reported offences is by far the lowest in the 24 years of these statistics.[1]

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Norway
            See what's happening in Sweden, too lax immigration policy has lead to disaster there.
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              #61    
            Old August 11th, 2018 (10:27 AM). Edited August 11th, 2018 by ShinyUmbreon189.
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              Quote:
              Originally Posted by Trev View Post
              Also we should all be aware when reading crime stats from other countries that they have different definitions for crime than the U.S. (Norway, for example, has a broader definition of “rape”). Take crime stats with a grain of salt.
              People always try to compare every country to the U.S. Lots of these same people know little about the U.S. Most of Americas crime is assault, robbery, and drug possession, etc. Murder and rape or other capital crimes are a fraction of these other crimes. Crimes like extortion, sex trades, prostitution, etc are controlled by criminal organizations. Drug possession is one of the highest crimes and with the war on drugs this leads to illegal immigration trades. Middle East and the heroin trade from Afghanistan, cocaine from South America, which then puts crack in America (Cocaine balls turns into rock with chemicals and boiling water I'm not going into details lol), Mexico transports marijuana, the list goes on really and this leads to murder and war in the streets over profit and turf. It's a very vicious cycle. This is just the criminal part of the immigration I'm touching upon tho.
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                #62    
              Old August 13th, 2018 (11:08 AM). Edited August 13th, 2018 by Nah.
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              Originally Posted by ShinyUmbreon189 View Post
              People always try to compare every country to the U.S. Lots of these same people know little about the U.S. Most of Americas crime is assault, robbery, and drug possession, etc. Murder and rape or other capital crimes are a fraction of these other crimes. Crimes like extortion, sex trades, prostitution, etc are controlled by criminal organizations. Drug possession is one of the highest crimes and with the war on drugs this leads to illegal immigration trades. Middle East and the heroin trade from Afghanistan, cocaine from South America, which then puts crack in America (Cocaine balls turns into rock with chemicals and boiling water I'm not going into details lol), Mexico transports marijuana, the list goes on really and this leads to murder and war in the streets over profit and turf. It's a very vicious cycle. This is just the criminal part of the immigration I'm touching upon tho.
              I'm aware, I've lived in the U.S. for all of my 21 years. Everything you just said has zero bearing on anything I said since we're talking about crime in other countries. Since I know the majority of people on this site are coming from a U.S. perspective, I wrote that snippet to inform everyone of the differences between criminal definitions in the U.S. and in Norway and how that affects crime statistics.

              Quote:
              Originally Posted by Rare Pokemon Cards View Post
              Immigration is great for the people immigrating, for the people already there there's not much to benefit from. Some business owners can find cheap labor, but for the most part it's not great to ruin an economy because ___ country can't get their sh*t together. Just my opinion..
              Actually, the U.S. would be severely impacted if immigrants stopped working their underpaid farming jobs. The majority of our food comes from immigrant farmers.
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                #63    
              Old August 14th, 2018 (3:33 AM). Edited August 14th, 2018 by MortalPhoenix.
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                As a person whose ancestors were European immigrants, I don't have a problem with people coming into the USA. I'm personally for loose standards. At bare minimum, I support keeping a record of who's coming and going. Personally, I think the USA should adopt the Schengen Area that the European Union uses. I don't care if people who come into the USA can't speak English, they will learn it while they are here. Why should I care if someone doesn't assimilate into the USA? USA is a nation that values individualism, so why would I want someone to confirm? Immigrants also get blamed for everything, so it is hard for me to take seriously any arguments against immigrants. At the end of the day, we are all part of the human race. In the grand scheme of things, the differences between use are pretty minor.
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