Chit-Chat: The Underground Hangout: Press "F" for jdthebud

If anyone is still interested in joining Westworld, I am accepting applications throughout the game. You can seamlessly join the game! :)

Klippy said:

If anyone is still interested in joining Westworld, I am accepting applications throughout the game. You can seamlessly join the game! :)

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Won't that make it kind of hard for one side to win?

Nope. ;)

Hi, A few of us have been talking, and can we please address the issue that's currently plaguing the UG right now? Most of you had noticed it, but lately a lot of salt (and not the good kind) has been thrown at each others faces. I'm gonna say this now, this ain't fun. I don't know why this is happening, and I hope I could start a discussion up to everyone in the UG. Please, for the love of god, try to be objective about this. You can state your feelings right now, but can everyone promise not to retaliate. We need to fix the discord in the UG right now, and I need everyone's help.

ok i dont play mafia a lot really but there is definitely something worse than a light coating of salt here imo it makes thinns seem really unfriendly and puts me off talking p often :/

I agree. I know this is a bit hypocritical of me considering the mafia debacle that happened a while ago but that's sort of what is making my activity here negligible. It's not fun to be around, and like in the single mafia game I'm in it's so toxic. I barely feel like I can share any thoughts I have without being directly attacked based on what other people have been doing, so I'm not really. There's a big difference between casting doubt on what someone's saying and just being an asshole. A lot of people here like to do the latter.

All I have to say to people is be the change that you want to see. Be active in games, interact positively with other members and don't take the game personally. The game is confrontational by nature, that doesn't mean an attack on you in the game is an attack on you as a person.

Basically, treat others with kindness and they will treat you in kind. We might be beginning to take this game more seriously, but we can do that without pointless arguments.

... no offense GP, but I don't see how this helps our situation. I mean, I do agree with what you're saying, how we should all be proactive, but to me, it kinda sounds like a recorded message. The problem is people are taking it way too seriously to the point that it's toxic. This isn't gonna be fixed by a notice that says "Remember to play nice"

Of course, I do admit that I have a part in making what UG is today, and I'm trying to make this place better, but if we aren't going to be frank about each other, this isn't going anywhere.

i think the problems should be acknowledged and also identified- what makes things feel so toxic? why do arguments devolve into personal attacks? what can we all do, as a community, to prevent this from happening and taking away the fun of the games? like gunner said it's not just a "remember to be nice" issue, it's an issue with the developed culture that has to be actively changed over time.

Salzorrah said:

... no offense GP, but I don't see how this helps our situation. I mean, I do agree with what you're saying, how we should all be proactive, but to me, it kinda sounds like a recorded message. The problem is people are taking it way too seriously to the point that it's toxic. This isn't gonna be fixed by a notice that says "Remember to play nice"

Of course, I do admit that I have a part in making what UG is today, and I'm trying to make this place better, but if we aren't going to be frank about each other, this isn't going anywhere.

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People want to play more seriously and I am not going to try and force them not to. The problem isn't that playing seriously is toxic it's that people get too defensive and take any probing for information or deconstruction of a post as a personal attack. This is a confrontational game, that's how it works. The problem is that people seem to forget that and as soon as someone targets them they turn it into an argument instead of defending themselves - instead of playing the game.

Aquacorde said:

i think the problems should be acknowledged and also identified- what makes things feel so toxic? why do arguments devolve into personal attacks? what can we all do, as a community, to prevent this from happening and taking away the fun of the games? like gunner said it's not just a "remember to be nice" issue, it's an issue with the developed culture that has to be actively changed over time.

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See my post above. There are people who don't like or don't understand that we're transitioning into a more serious mafia community compared to our origins and that causes them to take in-game confrontation, a cornerstone of the game, as personal attacks. It's not a community problem, it's a lot of people with the same personal problem all jammed in to one community. You can be serious and confrontational without making the game personal or taking it as such.

By the same token, we can make more rules and be harder on players but that's not going to improve the situation. It just makes things even more unpleasant if we go turning the UG into a police state. You guys need to be the change and the first place you start has to be yourselves. Take a long look at your own actions and change those before you go around demanding a change from other people. If you're not sure if you're causing trouble or not, talk to each other or to me/Lycan and we can tell you. Simple.

ok but why are we turning into a "more serious" mafia community? what does that even mean? i dont think anyone used to be... not serious about trying to win the games they were in. all i get from the designation of "more serious" is "less fun". when you take out the ability to be lighthearted and promote the idea of singleminded, intense gameplay... you lose people. you make a lot of people not want to talk because it's tense as hell. i dont want to have a tense game. i want to have fun.

Johnny said:

What us regular users can do is simply stop insulting each other. On the other hand, I think the mods have been extremely lenient, which isn't a bad thing, considering the confrontational nature of the games, but if you want immediate solutions, people should start receiving official warnings and infractions accordingly as they break the rules of the forums.

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I just want to point out that nine times out of ten if we are taking action you won't see it. Disciplinary issues are not a matter for public discussion. If we see something that's crossing the line, we'll deal with it. We are not giving anyone a free pass I assure you.

Aquacorde said:

ok but why are we turning into a "more serious" mafia community? what does that even mean? i dont think anyone used to be... not serious about trying to win the games they were in. all i get from the designation of "more serious" is "less fun". when you take out the ability to be lighthearted and promote the idea of singleminded, intense gameplay... you lose people. you make a lot of people not want to talk because it's tense as hell. i dont want to have a tense game. i want to have fun.

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More serious as in "more dedicated", "more invested in playing properly and skillfully" or I guess "more hardcore". It's similar to how some people play Pokemon casually and other people spend hours on Showdown refining the craft. We are currently somewhere in between those two stages and are having something of an identity crisis. We have players everywhere on the spectrum right now and it's not easy to cater to everyone.

imo if you choose to cater primarily to the hardcore audience you will really only keep those who have been here a while and those people are dwindling. also as long as a person who signs up is dedicated to their game and playinng their game to the best of their ability, i dont really see why there should be a distinction between levels of players? sure some will have more experience but i dont see why there should be this kind of split

@johnny i mean that's real and good strategy but also i think there should be a limit to it? like a lot of people have to learn when to back off. nobody's going to crack and reveal their role under an onslaught of attacks against their person, theyre just going to give up on the game.

We can all see being a "serious" mafia community isn't helping us. Infact, it's killing us. This is not the Underground that I, along with the other people who stuck here since the beginning, have envisioned it. GP, you were part of the Big Three. Me, you, and Naku, and two of them are sick of the UG on how it is as of now. If that isn't screaming that's a big problem, then I don't know what to say.

Why can't we go back to how things used to be?

im just saying that there are more people who would like to play the game as a game rather than a test and that a "serious" atmosphere doesn't bring in new blood, which is necessary for keeping the games fresh and interesting.

I think you all just need a nice helping of water to douse out all the salt.

Seriously, why the heck do you think I stopped bothering and even left the UG altogether? I've seen it slowly dwindling to the point that it is today. It's drama, it's cancerous, it's toxic, and no, no matter how hard GP tries to contain all that it just continues.

I really don't feel like staying here and breathe in the atmosphere so I'll be going now.

I think you need to realise that we didn't make a conscious choice to evolve into a more competitive community. That was a natural progression that happened by itself and it doesn't matter if I somehow manage to force people to scale it back because eventually it will happen again. That's just how games work. You start with a casual community and eventually the people who are less serious drop off and the people who are more invested develop a more serious community. Literally every game in existence has had this. Even freaking Rubik's Cubes have this.

Johnny and Candy have hit he nail on the head. The problem isn't that people play the game seriously - or in all frankness properly - the problem is that we too frequently devolve into ad hominem and personal attacks instead of handling the confrontation that the game is literally built around appropriately.

You're also right that Lycan, Klippy and I cannot fix the atmosphere on our own. You all need to be proactive in managing your own behaviour if you want to fix the underlying problem.

Okay, lets say its true, which I can see it is, people devolve into ad hominem, and such, do you know what's the cause of them? Personally the reason why I think people devolve to those things is that people take the game way too seriously, and being highly aggressive with their play style to the point that the game feels so intense. Sure, it's part of the game, but we didnt have that problem way before, what the hell changed?

Also, I'll be frank, I hate how you two dismiss the problem, you're just proving my point further that there is a big problem in the UG, and it needs to be addressed.

I don't have all the answers for this, but I do think there are glaring issues that may have killed us (because I do honestly think we've died).

If you'd like reference to that, we were averaging almost 4,000 posts a month the first five months of this year. October was the only month that even came close to that with 2,800 and then in November we had barely 1,000 posts. This month is shaping to close to that and we're sitting at 200~ (actually not bad for 3 days into the month).

I think a few key issues have hurt most and it's nothing we as staff can fix alone and I don't want to be a totalitarian and stop people from playing the way they want, but obviously hostility/sensitivity are a big issue. Some people get too hostile, some too offended too easily, and some are just unaware of the natural accusatory nature of the game. I think it's hard for some to separate the game from the player and that gets under the skin of some. I remember my very first mafia game, O'aka/Alvey accused me of being mafia and had a very well-crafted post on why I was, as well as refusing to accept my counterpoints about him being mafia. I became extremely irritated by it and it took me a bit to realize, "He's playing the game". It's why people randomly can accuse others of being mafia and getting them lynched just to add some chaos and mischief.

Secondly, inconsistent games and hosting. I know the real world gets in the way, but we've been hit hard by 1) games stopping abruptly mid-stride, 2) hosts disappearing, 3) a lack of hosts, 4) players being non-participatory, 5) game complexity/confusion. Too much of any of this stuff leaves a bitter taste for people and I'm guilty of some of it too of course, but I quit hosting two-three games just because people outright refused to play after signing up. That's disheartening as a host and as a player to have to stop because others have ruined it. Our games have also never stayed consistently inviting. Originally the games were easy to grasp for the most part and lacked the increasingly complex push that's come with the experience/age of our forum here.

Besides that we just keep bleeding out with old regulars leaving and no new ones to arrive or stay.

All of that to say I don't really have an answer to solve it because I don't know if there really is an answer. I'd like to think mafia hasn't run its course on PC, but it's entirely possible it has. It certainly will not survive with 10-15 regulars and no growth like we had before.

Well, we should probably start with something simple, the old regulars.

I admit that I've become disinterested in the UG in the past few months, and it's heartbreaking for me to see that, since I've been here since the beginning. Before we even try to cater to new people, I do think we should listen to the opinions of the old regulars, people who have shaped this forum, and let them suggest what to do. We need to entice them to come back. What do you guys suggest by bringing the old regulars back in?