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Discussion Can we move on to hacking Gen 4 and 5 now?

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  #1    
Old April 11th, 2017 (6:18 AM).
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    Guys... I've been thinking that we should maybe move on to Gen 4 and 5 games to hack now. Although we have been getting use to Gen 3 for a while now and we've squeezed alot of work into them, I think is time we could make use of 3d models and better hardware and/or software. Lot's of gen 3 games seem to have minor changes and just seem to be not so entertaining, even a gen 2 titles like Pokemon prism seem more fun! (and that surprisingly has 3d graphics compared to our gen 3 hacks! ) I understand you may not agree with me, but if you think about it there are so many advantages and you can improve it even more like how we add rom bases to our Firered and emerald games

    Complaint 1 - But DS pokemon hacks lack support and are MOST LIKELY harder to make.
    Solution 1 - Nope, they don't actually lack support, if you simply search pokemon gen 4 hacking tools you will easily find tons (and I mean TONS) of pokemon gen 4 hacking tools like Project pokemon rom editor or some gen 4 and 5 pokemon editors like Jackhack96's tool factory and just search pokemon gen 5 hacking tools and you'd be bombared with lot's of black and white hacking content. Even then, if you can't find anything, the only way you can have more support if you and more people make the tools to support!

    Complaint 2 - There aren't many DS emulators out there!
    Solution 2 - Yes there is, there is no$gba which supports GBA and DS roms! And there are emulators that also only support DS like desmume if you wanna keep visualboyadvance for your GBA and GBC games.

    Complaint 3 - But we have everything we need on GBA pokemon hacking, it's gone so far!
    Solution 3 - With DS pokemon hacking you have everything you need and more! Even if there isn't a rombase to add every single pokemon there, we still have to move on to make more. Rare wasn't familiar with the N64 at first when it came to making games, and they turned to be one of the consoles best publishers after a bit of getting use to, it could take a little getting use to and then be easy to hack ds pokemon titles!

    Complaint 4 - But the game is newer and Nintendo will stop us from hacking on it!
    Solution 4 - Nintendo will stop koolboyman from making an amazing pokemon hack (prism) on a 16 year old game!! Nintendo will just stop us hacking anything of their's, we still hack gen 3 titles even though Nintendo will try and stop us! Just get use to it!!

    So, what I'm trying to say is that we need to move on and advance to Gen 4 and 5 hacking otherwise we might just end up with the same boring old hack, think of it! 3d Visuals! Greater graphics!! Better hardware. There's nothing stopping us to make a new different crowd and evolve our hacking world! Consider the change! Is good!
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      #2    
    Old April 11th, 2017 (6:22 AM).
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    You can be the first to start the change, got any plans?
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    Old April 11th, 2017 (6:28 AM).
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    Old April 11th, 2017 (6:34 AM).
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      Old April 11th, 2017 (7:27 AM).
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      While this is possible, I don't think it's as simple as you think. I personally find the 3rd generation games more charming and 'portable' as they can be played easily on mobile devices; DS games can too but since they have two screens they're a bit inconvenient unless you have a very big screen.

      I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say Prism has 3D graphics, but if you're finding it better and more fun than a lot of Gen 3 hacks, doesn't that mean that the problem isn't with the generation the hack is of, but the content of the hack instead?
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        #6    
      Old April 11th, 2017 (8:17 AM). Edited April 11th, 2017 by Christos.
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        I see what you meant by what you meant about gen 3 games being more charming and portable and I definitely know is not easy! I should have thought about that! Secondly, Pokemon prism uses ray tracing on the intro to make the prism, I know it isn't proper 3d but is a somewhat illusion that makes it look 3d
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        Old April 11th, 2017 (8:20 AM).
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          Quote:
          Originally Posted by Radiating View Post
          You can be the first to start the change, got any plans?
          Nope, I don't have any plans, I was referring to professional hackers like dizzyegg to make the change. But I could start a game if everyone insists. Perharps Pokemon Bugcatcher could get a platinum or heatgold or BW port?
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          Old April 11th, 2017 (8:42 AM).
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            Quote:
            Originally Posted by Mariow2 View Post
            Nope, I don't have any plans, I was referring to professional hackers like dizzyegg to make the change. But I could start a game if everyone insists. Perharps Pokemon Bugcatcher could get a platinum or heatgold or BW port?
            See this is the problem. Rather than throwing the work on people who can make tools and work on stuff more advanced than you, you should start learning. This is why Pokemon hacking for gen 3 is so popular; everyone's used to being spoonfed information. If you want to hack gen 4, please do, but don't complain about other people not doing the work.
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            Old April 11th, 2017 (9:50 AM).
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                #10    
              Old April 11th, 2017 (2:33 PM).
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                I may agree with the first point, but even if there are tools to edit data, you can do less things, and many things are way harder to do (just look at map editing)

                Also, i think people are quite discouraged by the lack of complete 4/5 gen hacks, since there are no complete hack that uses a different region (just to give am example, but it could be other factors), but mainly hacks that edit movesets, scripts and wild encounters
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                Old April 12th, 2017 (9:43 AM).
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                In order for people to move on, you'd need to give them things they can't have with gen 3 hacks. Like a unified editor and a hugh chunk of data on those games that allows them to pick up on the technicality more easier. People are lazy and if you can't give them something that's more flashy and easily accessable, they'll just continue to use outdated stuff until their PC breaks and beyond.

                Also let's not forget that later generations also have issues that need to be addressed, that don't really exist (anymore) in older ROMs.
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                Old April 16th, 2017 (11:56 PM). Edited April 17th, 2017 by Christos.
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                  It's been quite a while since I seen this thread that I made and seeing the replies really made me think twice about the thread and the way I was convincing people, it wasn't really convincing nor was it a really good example of using the newer gen games. I just wanted to say sorry about not really thinking about what I was posting. It just doesn't seem to be that I was thinking about it properly and I seemed too pressuring, yet again, I'm sorry if my interpretation on what we should be doing put you off of gen 4 hacking.

                  Quote:
                  Originally Posted by NewDenverCity View Post
                  See this is the problem. Rather than throwing the work on people who can make tools and work on stuff more advanced than you, you should start learning. This is why Pokemon hacking for gen 3 is so popular; everyone's used to being spoonfed information. If you want to hack gen 4, please do, but don't complain about other people not doing the work.
                  I suppose you're right

                  Quote:
                  Originally Posted by Marth View Post
                  In order for people to move on, you'd need to give them things they can't have with gen 3 hacks. Like a unified editor and a hugh chunk of data on those games that allows them to pick up on the technicality more easier. People are lazy and if you can't give them something that's more flashy and easily accessable, they'll just continue to use outdated stuff until their PC breaks and beyond.

                  Also let's not forget that later generations also have issues that need to be addressed, that don't really exist (anymore) in older ROMs.
                  You're right. I don't really think I can fix those issues (considering I'm a newbie)

                  Quote:
                  Originally Posted by Ax461 View Post
                  I may agree with the first point, but even if there are tools to edit data, you can do less things, and many things are way harder to do (just look at map editing)

                  Also, i think people are quite discouraged by the lack of complete 4/5 gen hacks, since there are no complete hack that uses a different region (just to give am example, but it could be other factors), but mainly hacks that edit movesets, scripts and wild encounters
                  I didn't really think about it that way.

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                    #13    
                  Old April 17th, 2017 (12:57 AM).
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                    If you guys know it or not, there is a NDS Rom hack named" Pokemon Light Platinum NDS"
                    which is a NDS version of Light Platinum Gba. If those developers thought that it would be impossible then they could not make that game, could they?
                    I know NDS is hacking is way lot tougher and difficult than GBA. But think about this, in 2004
                    GBA hacking was harder too. But we didn't stick to gen 1 or 2, did we?
                    Lu Ho poke made Advance Map
                    Hackmew created XSE
                    loadingnow made UnLZ-GBA
                    If they thought gen 3 hacking is impossible, then they couldn't make these tools.
                    Gen 4 hacking may not be suitable for now, but now its our turn to develop the gen 4 hacking. There are already tools and tutorials of NDS Mapping, scripting and spriting.
                    Yes, there isn't any option to bring BW repel system to gen 4 or putting every pokemon
                    but if we work together...maybe we will find a way one day!
                    GBA hacking didn't become so popular in a night. It took more than 10 years. If we all start researching NDS Rom, finding the Offsets, making tools and easy tutorials for people...maybe, one day, NDS hacking will become popular too!
                    I know its hard, but that doesn't mean its impossible.
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                    Old April 17th, 2017 (5:09 AM).
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                    Quote:
                    Originally Posted by Sakib66 View Post
                    If you guys know it or not, there is a NDS Rom hack named" Pokemon Light Platinum NDS"
                    which is a NDS version of Light Platinum Gba. If those developers thought that it would be impossible then they could not make that game, could they?
                    I know NDS is hacking is way lot tougher and difficult than GBA. But think about this, in 2004
                    GBA hacking was harder too. But we didn't stick to gen 1 or 2, did we?
                    Lu Ho poke made Advance Map
                    Hackmew created XSE
                    loadingnow made UnLZ-GBA
                    If they thought gen 3 hacking is impossible, then they couldn't make these tools.
                    Gen 4 hacking may not be suitable for now, but now its our turn to develop the gen 4 hacking. There are already tools and tutorials of NDS Mapping, scripting and spriting.
                    Yes, there isn't any option to bring BW repel system to gen 4 or putting every pokemon
                    but if we work together...maybe we will find a way one day!
                    GBA hacking didn't become so popular in a night. It took more than 10 years. If we all start researching NDS Rom, finding the Offsets, making tools and easy tutorials for people...maybe, one day, NDS hacking will become popular too!
                    I know its hard, but that doesn't mean its impossible.
                    Well...I mean, you say that as if Gen 1 and 2 hacking was big to begin with. At the time, a lot of what came out of GB Pokemon hacking were translations, parody hacks, and other small edits, nothing more than what today would be allowed in the Slideshow Showcase. In fact, it wasn't really until GBA Pokemon Hacking became a big deal that we really even saw any bigger developments in the Gameboy games' hacking progress. It was that sudden rush of interest in hacking that made it spread to the Metal and Color games through relation, so it's not really the same case.

                    More than that, I think it's a bigger question of "why" than "when". If we're talking about games that would make for good next hacking destinations, what exactly makes 4th and 5th generations a destination worth looking towards? A lot of what made these generations seem attractive in the past (such as various mechanics, Pokemon, etc.) have been conceptually reverse-engineered for the 3rd generation and, now, are really little more than minor conveniences. Not everything, of course, but think about it: wouldn't it be a bit of a leap for a bunch of hackers to jump onboard to the Gen 4/5 train just for a few small improvements? Especially when, so many years later, we're still trying to make generation 3 a more accessible and versatile plane to hack?

                    I mean, I understand your enthusiasm, but when you really consider, that with how Gen 3, is now someone could make a downgrade of Pokemon Black and White that has literally every single thing that Nintendo did (save for the wifi or Dream World) and probably even more, it really does seem as if it's the idea of hacking Gens 4 and 5 that people are attracted to rather than what it would actually mean.
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                      #15    
                    Old April 17th, 2017 (1:14 PM).
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                    I would personally like to see people try to hack for the DS. I think the only real thing that's holding it back is the fact that there isn't a stable and out of beta map editor for Pokemon DS games. So until someone feels motivated enough to make one, I don't see it coming to fruition.

                    I feel as though the kids that played during the times of Gen III and hack for nostalgia are all grown up now. We don't have time, we have lives to attend to and it's up to the newer generation who grew up with DS games to implant themselves into the hacking scene. The lack of adaptation is likely a good reason for why the scene is diminishing.
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                      #16    
                    Old April 17th, 2017 (1:49 PM).
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                      Well Pokémon Platinum was my first Pokémon game (I'm not sure if that was what you wanted me to reply with)
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                        #17    
                      Old April 17th, 2017 (7:26 PM). Edited April 18th, 2017 by Sakib66.
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                        Quote:
                        Originally Posted by FBI View Post
                        I would personally like to see people try to hack for the DS. I think the only real thing that's holding it back is the fact that there isn't a stable and out of beta map editor for Pokemon DS games. So until someone feels motivated enough to make one, I don't see it coming to fruition.

                        I feel as though the kids that played during the times of Gen III and hack for nostalgia are all grown up now. We don't have time, we have lives to attend to and it's up to the newer generation who grew up with DS games to implant themselves into the hacking scene. The lack of adaptation is likely a good reason for why the scene is diminishing.

                        Well, there is Spikey's DS map editor and it works pretty well. There is also a script editor named PPRE which's commands are 80% similar to XSE. A lot of people feels motivated enough to make one and then quit because of some dummies commitments.
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                        Old April 17th, 2017 (7:30 PM).
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                          Quote:
                          Originally Posted by Mariow2 View Post
                          Well Pokémon Platinum was my first Pokémon game (I'm not sure if that was what you wanted me to reply with)
                          I was talking about light platinum
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                          Old April 18th, 2017 (6:39 AM).
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                            Ah no, I was talking to FBI mentioning my first pokemon game was a gen IV
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                            Old April 19th, 2017 (8:56 AM).
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                              Quote:
                              Originally Posted by machomuu View Post
                              Well...I mean, you say that as if Gen 1 and 2 hacking was big to begin with. At the time, a lot of what came out of GB Pokemon hacking were translations, parody hacks, and other small edits, nothing more than what today would be allowed in the Slideshow Showcase. In fact, it wasn't really until GBA Pokemon Hacking became a big deal that we really even saw any bigger developments in the Gameboy games' hacking progress. It was that sudden rush of interest in hacking that made it spread to the Metal and Color games through relation, so it's not really the same case.

                              More than that, I think it's a bigger question of "why" than "when". If we're talking about games that would make for good next hacking destinations, what exactly makes 4th and 5th generations a destination worth looking towards? A lot of what made these generations seem attractive in the past (such as various mechanics, Pokemon, etc.) have been conceptually reverse-engineered for the 3rd generation and, now, are really little more than minor conveniences. Not everything, of course, but think about it: wouldn't it be a bit of a leap for a bunch of hackers to jump onboard to the Gen 4/5 train just for a few small improvements? Especially when, so many years later, we're still trying to make generation 3 a more accessible and versatile plane to hack?

                              I mean, I understand your enthusiasm, but when you really consider, that with how Gen 3, is now someone could make a downgrade of Pokemon Black and White that has literally every single thing that Nintendo did (save for the wifi or Dream World) and probably even more, it really does seem as if it's the idea of hacking Gens 4 and 5 that people are attracted to rather than what it would actually mean.

                              Can u make a 3D map in GBA? Can u make a new Model of maps in GBA? Do u know about Function in Scripting? Just because of some PSS split and running indoors and some other things, people feel that they have everything in GBA. But the truth is, they dont even know anything of NDS yet! There are still
                              a ton of things like 3D models, Animations(Like BW), New kinds of Scripts which has not been engineered for GBA yet.( And I think never will be)

                              I'm not saying GBA is bad. I even understand your saying. But please, if you don't want to spend time with NDS, then don't stop them who are willing to.
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                              Old April 19th, 2017 (9:45 AM).
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                              Quote:
                              Originally Posted by Sakib66 View Post
                              Can u make a 3D map in GBA? Can u make a new Model of maps in GBA? Do u know about Function in Scripting? Just because of some PSS split and running indoors and some other things, people feel that they have everything in GBA. But the truth is, they dont even know anything of NDS yet! There are still
                              a ton of things like 3D models, Animations(Like BW), New kinds of Scripts which has not been engineered for GBA yet.( And I think never will be)

                              I'm not saying GBA is bad. I even understand your saying. But please, if you don't want to spend time with NDS, then don't stop them who are willing to.
                              As I said, I have nothing against people trying to hack the DS games, nor do I have anything against people who want to.

                              Honestly, of the things you listed, I can't see a single thing that was listed that can't be done on the GBA, theoretically or otherwise. Save for 3D models.

                              But 3D is a special thing. I remember, back when I saw some of Pokemon Gaia's first screens, about how, despite clearly being 2D, it looked eerily 3D. This is because, based on the way it was made and placed, it conveyed its orientation really well. And it looked good. Thing about the 3D in the mentioned games is that it's pretty prototypical. If we're talking 3D, why not just skip to Generation 6 and 7, where Nintendo clearly had a much better grasp on how to make a playable 3D world than before (though this was largely due to the tech than because of learning the ropes, but Gen 5 to 6 to 7 shows that they really were working out a way to make Pokemon work in a 3D environment). My point being, do the low-poly 3D models of the DS games really add to the experience all that much?

                              If yes, there's another problem. 3D modeling and spriting/2D Art are wholly different, making the games inherently less accessible. This isn't necessarily a bad thing by itself, but it means that the fanbase will be split. Save for free Pokemon assets, people will largely have to make models themselves, which is a wholly different monster than 2D Art. It isn't necessarily harder, but learning it is definitely a different process and the GBA experience won't really carry over.

                              How I basically see it, DS hacks'd probably be 2D for the most part because there really isn't much merit to 3D models other than...well, them being 3D, but when people can have and make higher quality art for less trouble...well, why not?

                              Which is fine. This is all fine. 4th/5th gen hacking can and should be a thing, but it's "moving on" that I have a problem with. Because the GBA games aren't done being researched and developed for. When you consider how much we would actually get out of DS hacking isn't really all that much (though that could change), it really isn't all that surprising that, all these years later, we still haven't really laid a groundwork. I encourage people to hack them, even, as it just gives us more options and potentially opens up new opportunities, but hacking them just because they're the DS games when we've already been able to replicate quite a bit of what they are is a little head scratching. Not that that's a reason to lose hope.

                              So if people wanna go for it, I'll be cheerin' ya on, just be sure to reach for the stars if you do.
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                                #22    
                              Old April 19th, 2017 (12:50 PM).
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                                Well said! I recently was thinking that. A while ago back in the 1980's when the NES was out, Nintendo wasn't really planning on making any newer consoles, it was only when SEGA released the mega drive/Genesis Nintendo decided to make the SNES. They Both lasted until 2003 (Before the DS was out!) and while the competition got tougher with the PlayStation and Yada-yada Nintendo was still relying on those two aging consoles (well of course they had n64, but, that's another story) if there weren't any competition, how long would we have waited for someone to say "Oh, Let's make a SNES" or something similar? Sometimes people like to keep their own bubble and work to theirselves and others just wanna be apart of a crowd! Whichever one you're most comfortable with, then stay where you feel more welcome. Is the same with GBA and DS (and not to forget GB and GBC) hacking! Maybe instead of pressuring people, we should give them their decision and let them be the way they are.
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                                  #23    
                                Old April 19th, 2017 (2:34 PM).
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                                  hook me up with an idb and i'm down
                                  i was planning on focusing efforts on a ds hack after mikelan released this, but then he disappeared and left many of us saddened
                                  and now i can probably do something anyways but hey we'll see
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                                    #24    
                                  Old April 20th, 2017 (8:30 AM).
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                                    I honestly can't imagine reverting to pre-IDB and C hacking. So much of the things I want to do in ROM hacking would require going through an extra few layers of work to accomplish. It's not the lack of tools that makes Gen 4+ unattractive, its the added difficulty of doing the things outside of what those tools allow that really does it for me.
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                                    Has the potential to turn really bad which is why I'm all for it.
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                                      #25    
                                    Old 1 Week Ago (5:52 PM).
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                                    I dunno.
                                       
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                                      Honestly, I feel like one of the reasons we stick to hacking Gen 3 games is because other than a true 3D Engine and the duel screens, there's really nothing from Gens 4 and 5 that we haven't been able to add. We've managed to add new Pokemon without replacing pre-existing Pokemon, larger and more detailed sprites, the Physical/Special split, the list goes on. I don't see anyone really itching to make a Pokemon Hack centered around triple battles, so I don't see that happening any time soon.

                                      GBA Emulation is typically much more stable, and hacking GBA Roms is generally much easier than DS Roms. Other that Light Platinum DS, Dark Diamond and maybe Heart Red, we really haven't seen much from the DS Hacking scene, and I just personally feel that it's because GBA Hacking is just much easier and (incredibly slightly) less time consuming.
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