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Old November 6th, 2018 (6:30 PM).
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what the psyduck Florida I thought you were better than that
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Old November 6th, 2018 (6:40 PM).
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tokyodrift View Post
    Tim Kaine obviously won VA, that really wasn't a shock to me. I'm more interested in the Florida and Georgia races tbh. Though to be quite honest my states district has always been red, and unfortunately that didn't change tonight.
    Most southern states are usually more conservative regarding politics, so this is not surprising.
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    Old November 6th, 2018 (6:54 PM). Edited November 6th, 2018 by tokyodrift.
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    Most southern states are usually more conservative regarding politics, so this is not surprising.
    I knew that :P
    Just kind of hoped it would change for once but maybe that was a bit too much to ask haha.

    Texas thooooooooooooooooooo such close races
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    Old November 6th, 2018 (7:30 PM).
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    I mean, Beto made it so close, though. I’d vote him for President tbh.
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    Old November 6th, 2018 (8:43 PM).
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    Yay Whitmer won for Michigan Governor!!
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    Old November 7th, 2018 (3:03 AM).
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      There's definitely a very real problem with people on the left harassing people on the right over political differences.
      yes. because your party sets out to destroy lives and if left unchecked you nearly always resort to some kind of societal cleansing of the poor.
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      Old November 7th, 2018 (4:08 AM). Edited November 7th, 2018 by Nah.
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      So right now it looks like the Democrats have gained control of the House of Reps, while the Republicans have retained their control of the Senate. There's still a few undecided seats left atm, though they aren't going to change the outcome.

      In New Jersey, Bob Menendez kept his Senate seat, beating Bob Hugin by about 9 points. Tom Malinowski beat Leonard Lance by roughly 2. I don't know how the races for the other House seats went in this state.

      News was also saying about how now Congress now has its first 2 Muslim women or something. Apparently the nation now has its first openly gay governor now too.
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      Old November 7th, 2018 (7:57 AM).
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      Looks like the Florida senate race is going into recount.
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      Old November 12th, 2018 (5:12 AM).
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      Looks like the Florida senate race is going into recount.
      oh yeah, so what happens when they do the recount, but the result ends up being the same, that it's super close?
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      Old November 13th, 2018 (3:30 AM). Edited November 13th, 2018 by Ivysaur.
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      oh yeah, so what happens when they do the recount, but the result ends up being the same, that it's super close?
      The one with the most votes wins.

      There's no rule saying "you need to win by at least 1% for the win to be valid". But the US generally works with a "meh, good enough" approach to vote-counting -meaning lots of miscounted or uncounted votes trickle in due to human and machine errors-, yet most races are decided by a large enough margin for the precise result to be irrelevant. But if the margin is too close, they review every ballot to make sure there aren't faulty machines causing some votes to be missed (a possibility in some precincts in Broward County, where elections are run by monkeys), or ballots with crosses instead of filled bubbles, or ink sapping into the other page and causing the machine to believe there are several votes, etc. And, once every ballot is reviewed, the one with the most votes wins.

      Bush won the presidency in 2000 by about 500 votes in Florida, thanks to Broward (heavy D) messing up a few thousands of ballots that were deemed uncountable after weeks trying to figure out what party people had tried to vote for and failing to understand it.
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      Old November 13th, 2018 (8:36 AM). Edited November 13th, 2018 by ShinyUmbreon189.
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        Why do people choose a side? It's so obvious democrat and republican was created to divide us and it works. Then people rattata and complain about how the "other party" does "this or that" cause they were taught to be closed minded by their leaders on their side of what's "right and wrong". Politics is one of the biggest scams and people fall for the propaganda and I don't understand it. Then again people are naive...
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        Old November 14th, 2018 (5:09 AM).
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        Originally Posted by ShinyUmbreon189 View Post
        Why do people choose a side? It's so obvious democrat and republican was created to divide us and it works. Then people rattata and complain about how the "other party" does "this or that" cause they were taught to be closed minded by their leaders on their side of what's "right and wrong". Politics is one of the biggest scams and people fall for the propaganda and I don't understand it. Then again people are naive...
        Yes I'm sure it's all a manufactured conspiracy to keep the population divided... because all those disparate groups are clearly working together to make... everyone more difficult to manage and control?

        There's multiple sides, because of naturally opposing ideologies. If you believe in some big inter-party conspiracy you're the only naive one here.
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        Old November 14th, 2018 (12:44 PM). Edited November 14th, 2018 by ShinyUmbreon189.
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          Originally Posted by gimmepie View Post
          Yes I'm sure it's all a manufactured conspiracy to keep the population divided... because all those disparate groups are clearly working together to make... everyone more difficult to manage and control?

          There's multiple sides, because of naturally opposing ideologies. If you believe in some big inter-party conspiracy you're the only naive one here.
          Keep believing the propaganda.. There's no such thing as power to the people if they're divided by literally everything.. I know exactly what's going on and I don't need someone in Australia to tell me how Americas political system isn't corrupt. Only naive sheep follow media and news and chooses a side. If you can't see the media uses biases tactics to divide us through these ideologies then you obviously have wool covering your eyes or you know less than you thought about America. To even say one side is right over the other, is actually wrong. Is heads or tails wrong? Which is wrong, which is right? Do you even grasp how divided America is? Or are you oblivious to this as well?
          It's a controlled system cause a non republican or democratic candidate will NEVER be elected.
          As long as those in power hold the power to leech through manipulation and fear.. It will never change.
          As long as everything is run and funded by greedy corporations things will never change.
          You can have ideologies without choosing a political side ya know.. Oh wait... Most aren't that open minded, right? Or is it fear of being wrong that keeps people asleep?
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          Old November 14th, 2018 (3:40 PM). Edited November 14th, 2018 by gimmepie.
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          Keep believing the propaganda.. There's no such thing as power to the people if they're divided by literally everything.. I know exactly what's going on and I don't need someone in Australia to tell me how Americas political system isn't corrupt. Only naive sheep follow media and news and chooses a side. If you can't see the media uses biases tactics to divide us through these ideologies then you obviously have wool covering your eyes or you know less than you thought about America. To even say one side is right over the other, is actually wrong. Is heads or tails wrong? Which is wrong, which is right? Do you even grasp how divided America is? Or are you oblivious to this as well?
          Did... did you actually read anything I said? You don't understand politics at all.

          1. "You don't live in the US so you don't know anything" is a bad argument. We live in the information era and I'm well versed in politics/political theory. I probably know more than a lot of Americans.

          2. I never said your political system isn't corrupt. Politics in the US is totally psyducked and hugely corrupt because people with money hold way too much power over politicians. I've made this point over and over myself in discussions you have been a part of. I said that there's no some bi-partisan conspiracy to keep America divided.

          3. There's also not a media conspiracy to create division. There's some shady media stuff going on but it has nothing to do with wanting a divided populace. It's about manipulating facts to get people to align themselves with a political cause. You make it out like all the big news outlets get together and divy up who's going to take the left, who's going to take the right. They don't want to keep everyone divided that want to convert people to their side and keep the people they already have.

          4. There is no government in the world that wants a divided populace. Wars aren't fought for the sake of creating sides and elections aren't run for the sake of dividing the populace so all the politicians can chill together and rule like kings. A divided populace means debate, which means research, which means attention, which means work, which means lobbying and protests and it means the government is under a higher degree of scrutiny. A politically divided populace is a good thing usually. It only becomes a problem when it goes too far and people and it becomes more about beating the other guy that creating legitimate improvement.

          Is America at that point? Hell yes. America has been at that point for literal decades. That's not because the dems or republicans wants things split. They don't want the scrutiny, they don't want the higher chance of losing power and they don't want the extra work. The campaigning, propaganda and media manipulation isn't to keep you divided, it's because both sides are desperately trying to unify people under their banner. The division happens because your politics is dominated by two parties with vastly different political ideologies who both want everyone together... on their side of the political compass.

          Quote:
          It's a controlled system cause a non republican or democratic candidate will NEVER be elected.
          As long as those in power hold the power to leech through manipulation and fear.. It will never change.
          As long as everything is run and funded by greedy corporations things will never change.
          You can have ideologies without choosing a political side ya know.. Oh wait... Most aren't that open minded, right? Or is it fear of being wrong that keeps people asleep?
          Now this isn't even relevant to what we were discussing. What I was talking about was conspiracy, not corruption, and you're conflating the two. I am well aware of the numerous faults in the US political system. What I'm saying is that there is no conspiracy where the government is actively antagonising the American populace on purpose specifically for the sake of dividing you because that's ridiculous.

          The stuff you mention there in that second quote, those are very real problems that have nothing to do with an imaginary conspiracy. It is absolutely true that your system is biased in favour of the democrats and republicans. Slightly more towards the republicans because the electoral college is stupid but that's just one of many flaws and the democrats sure as hell aren't immune to criticism since they're plenty of guilty of corporate ownership. It's totally true that corporations in the US hold too much power, in fact I'd argue that is the single biggest issue with American politics (thanks Reagan). Those are things I totally agree with. They're also totally irrelevant to what you and I are discussing but I'm leaving them in because they tie into the next part.

          Firstly saying "I don't side with either the democrats or the republicans", you are inherently choosing a side. Whether you're a libertarian (you seem like one to me, even if you don't necessarily label yourself as such), whether you like the greens or if your views align with someone else or nobody else, you're taking a side. It is literally impossible to have a political ideology without taking a side. Even centrism is a side. If you support anarchy, even that is taking a side. Arguing for not taking a side with either of the major parties is an oxymoron because it is inherently creating a position that you side with.

          Secondly, nothing ever changes? People like you who refuse to take sides and actively disengage with politics are a huge part of why nothing changes. If you want to see changes you need to put your voice to good use instead of using it to act high and mighty, sprouting conspiracy theories and imagining yourself as enlightened and better than the people actually fighting to make changes happen. The way the US is now it's going to take a hell of a lot of very loud voices screaming to get corporations out of the capital and a huge part of how you ended up there is because too many people were silent when a small number of voices was enough to matter.

          You go on and on about how naive people are but every time you do it you're just showcasing how little you actually know about politics. Democracy only works because there's people taking sides and arguing different view points. That's what makes it fair. If everyone in the government is agreeing, then you have a single party system. Congrats, that's not democratic anymore. If every politician is in agreement and every media outlet is working to bring everyone together under the same banner, that's called fascism. You are advocating for fascism. You don't realise it, you're not doing it on purpose, you're not a nazi or a stalinesque communist or whatever, you're just totally misguided as to how democracy works. You don't want them all agreeing, that's a warning sign.

          Your problem is that you view government - not your government, government itself - as inherently negative. You act as though the literal institution is a sentient, evil antagonistic force that exists for the sake of making life harder for everyone else. The government isn't out to get you, we have governments because we need them for society to function. Government is a very good thing. If you want to see what society would be like without it, watch a bunch of sharks in a feeding frenzy. You're misguided and overestimate your own understanding of things and you're mistaking that for enlightenment.

          There's a lot of issues with the US government. I am in no way trying to say that there's not a lot of work to do. But there's no conspiracy against the people. There's rampant corruption, the institution is sick and it desperately needs healing. But you're not going to fix that by sitting there preaching fallacies and advocating that nobody makes an effort to fix it. You can fix what's wrong with the government or you can stop the discussion and erase the political divide. You can't have it both ways.

          Edit: Sorry for typos, I haven't slept. Went back and fixed a couple of really bad ones just now but still missed a mukload I think.
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          Old November 15th, 2018 (4:39 AM).
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          in fact I'd argue that is the single biggest issue with American politics (thanks Reagan).
          just wanna hear more on this bit
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          Old November 15th, 2018 (6:58 AM). Edited November 15th, 2018 by ShinyUmbreon189.
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            Did... did you actually read anything I said? You don't understand politics at all.
            Actually, yes I did read what you said...

            Quote:
            1. "You don't live in the US so you don't know anything" is a bad argument. We live in the information era and I'm well versed in politics/political theory. I probably know more than a lot of Americans.
            Cool. You're a millennial that has all the answers from the internet... Came from the internet so it must be true.... I could say I know more about your own country than you, but I don't.

            Quote:
            2. I never said your political system isn't corrupt. Politics in the US is totally ****ed and hugely corrupt because people with money hold way too much power over politicians. I've made this point over and over myself in discussions you have been a part of. I said that there's no some bi-partisan conspiracy to keep America divided.
            No conspiracy to keep America divided? Again.. You aware of how divided it is here? If so, how you think that came to be?

            Quote:
            3. There's also not a media conspiracy to create division. There's some shady media stuff going on but it has nothing to do with wanting a divided populace. It's about manipulating facts to get people to align themselves with a political cause. You make it out like all the big news outlets get together and divy up who's going to take the left, who's going to take the right. They don't want to keep everyone divided that want to convert people to their side and keep the people they already have.
            You actually believe this bullmuk? It's obvious you can't see past how biased they are and how they twist everything to their liking and beliefs to gain followers and make the other team look bad, or like the enemy. These people are called, SHEEP.

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            4. There is no government in the world that wants a divided populace. Wars aren't fought for the sake of creating sides and elections aren't run for the sake of dividing the populace so all the politicians can chill together and rule like kings. A divided populace means debate, which means research, which means attention, which means work, which means lobbying and protests and it means the government is under a higher degree of scrutiny. A politically divided populace is a good thing usually. It only becomes a problem when it goes too far and people and it becomes more about beating the other guy that creating legitimate improvement.
            Lies.. When they gonna stop man, seriously..
            Politicians are just puppets.. A REAL politician will never get elected cause there's an agenda. Everyone has an agenda. You have an agenda, I have an agenda, my dog has an agenda... You think some wealthy people that's funded by corporations that leech the people don't have an agenda? Why you think lots of these politicians are so "wealthy"? You think they actually give a psyduck about you?

            Quote:
            Is America at that point? Hell yes. America has been at that point for literal decades. That's not because the dems or republicans wants things split. They don't want the scrutiny, they don't want the higher chance of losing power and they don't want the extra work. The campaigning, propaganda and media manipulation isn't to keep you divided, it's because both sides are desperately trying to unify people under their banner. The division happens because your politics is dominated by two parties with vastly different political ideologies who both want everyone together... on their side of the political compass.
            I'll tell you exactly why it's to keep us divided... If people are divided, they're easier to convince and control. Btw, politicians that has the most funds through their campaign basically wins... this is a problem.. But it's all about money when it comes to a lot of things.



            Quote:
            Now this isn't even relevant to what we were discussing. What I was talking about was conspiracy, not corruption, and you're conflating the two. I am well aware of the numerous faults in the US political system. What I'm saying is that there is no conspiracy where the government is actively antagonising the American populace on purpose specifically for the sake of dividing you because that's ridiculous.
            It's not ridiculous if you think about it... They're professional liars... In the end, they make money by lying and forcing us to fuel this corrupt system. People simply argue and get violent over one voting left and right. People are that self absorbed and closed minded cause they fell for the media tactics. As someone who studied the media, from all views.. I concluded it's sugar coated so they control the kool aid.

            Quote:
            The stuff you mention there in that second quote, those are very real problems that have nothing to do with an imaginary conspiracy. It is absolutely true that your system is biased in favour of the democrats and republicans. Slightly more towards the republicans because the electoral college is stupid but that's just one of many flaws and the democrats sure as hell aren't immune to criticism since they're plenty of guilty of corporate ownership. It's totally true that corporations in the US hold too much power, in fact I'd argue that is the single biggest issue with American politics (thanks Reagan). Those are things I totally agree with. They're also totally irrelevant to what you and I are discussing but I'm leaving them in because they tie into the next part.
            A politician doesn't have the power to do anything about it, just like the people. Politicians don't REPRESENT THE PEOPLE. If they did, we wouldn't be in this mess. If these politicians actually gave a psyduck about us, I might change my mind. Until then.. I'm gonna see them as parasites.

            Quote:
            Firstly saying "I don't side with either the democrats or the republicans", you are inherently choosing a side. Whether you're a libertarian (you seem like one to me, even if you don't necessarily label yourself as such), whether you like the greens or if your views align with someone else or nobody else, you're taking a side. It is literally impossible to have a political ideology without taking a side. Even centrism is a side. If you support anarchy, even that is taking a side. Arguing for not taking a side with either of the major parties is an oxymoron because it is inherently creating a position that you side with.
            It's easier to believe lies spread by parties tho.. I think for myself.

            Quote:
            Secondly, nothing ever changes? People like you who refuse to take sides and actively disengage with politics are a huge part of why nothing changes. If you want to see changes you need to put your voice to good use instead of using it to act high and mighty, sprouting conspiracy theories and imagining yourself as enlightened and better than the people actually fighting to make changes happen. The way the US is now it's going to take a hell of a lot of very loud voices screaming to get corporations out of the capital and a huge part of how you ended up there is because too many people were silent when a small number of voices was enough to matter.
            Nothings gonna change cause we keep putting these parasites in office.. Every president gets worse and psyducks more things up. Just like people keep the same politicians in congress and house for YEARS and wonder why nothings changing.
            It's like people continuing to vote democrat in Michigan when most their water is filled with lead and Detroit and Flint are practically third world value in America...

            Quote:
            You go on and on about how naive people are but every time you do it you're just showcasing how little you actually know about politics. Democracy only works because there's people taking sides and arguing different view points. That's what makes it fair. If everyone in the government is agreeing, then you have a single party system. Congrats, that's not democratic anymore. If every politician is in agreement and every media outlet is working to bring everyone together under the same banner, that's called fascism. You are advocating for fascism. You don't realise it, you're not doing it on purpose, you're not a nazi or a stalinesque communist or whatever, you're just totally misguided as to how democracy works. You don't want them all agreeing, that's a warning sign.
            Got it.. So you're completely cool with media twisting stories to their bias.. Tell me how these people aren't "professional liars"?

            Quote:
            Your problem is that you view government - not your government, government itself - as inherently negative. You act as though the literal institution is a sentient, evil antagonistic force that exists for the sake of making life harder for everyone else. The government isn't out to get you, we have governments because we need them for society to function. Government is a very good thing. If you want to see what society would be like without it, watch a bunch of sharks in a feeding frenzy. You're misguided and overestimate your own understanding of things and you're mistaking that for enlightenment.
            Only those that abuse the system and are privileged are fine with it.. Those that abuse the system know they're government will take care of them with the cost of the tax payers money.. A person that's born into money has money.. Problems become irrelevant when money gets involved... Why are we forced to pay taxes and not choose where we'd like to have them go to? Why are we forced to live our daily lives as a struggle if we don't get assistance? You think people can actually live off minimum wage? You think the government cares about minorities? Oh wait, they lock them up or leave them in poverty.. Forgot..

            This GOVERNMENT created laws to CONTROL.. As I said about the taxation thing.. I wouldn't say it's theft if I was able to put my taxes where I want them... Say I want them to go towards helping those that need it.. I don't have that freedom and right.. Yet it's my psyducking money... What if I don't believe in funding wars? You think these tax payers like having their money going to war and military intelligence when people are literally killing one another for food? Those people in power are simply psychopaths.

            Quote:
            There's a lot of issues with the US government. I am in no way trying to say that there's not a lot of work to do. But there's no conspiracy against the people. There's rampant corruption, the institution is sick and it desperately needs healing. But you're not going to fix that by sitting there preaching fallacies and advocating that nobody makes an effort to fix it. You can fix what's wrong with the government or you can stop the discussion and erase the political divide. You can't have it both ways.
            There's nothing we can do about it tho, unless we unite. We don't even have to agree on everything.. Just agree to disagree. Respect and accept and move on. That's life man.
            I don't agree with you on a lot of things, but we're only human. You can't expect us to agree on everything. There's no reason to divide ourselves tho. I don't have a problem debating with you. Cause you back your statements up, unlike most. You require me to think. I enjoy debating with you, as much as I dislike your viewpoints. I respect your opinion at the same time.
            This isn't what America does tho. They put a barrier up and deflect anything outside their belief system, but don't back that claim up. Not all.. But it's that divided.
            The media plays a role more than you think.
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            Old November 15th, 2018 (7:46 AM).
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            just wanna hear more on this bit
            Reagan is the one responsible for the laws that gave corporations as much power over politics that they have, for example giving corporations the same rights as citizens.
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            Old November 15th, 2018 (7:53 AM).
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            Honestly I have nothing more to say to you at this point. That post was full of total misunderstandings of my points (or just outright ignoring them) and a healthy dose of outright falsities. You need to actually learn about politics and political theory before talking like you know everything. You've just decided for yourself that you're right and you know everything and... well the reality is the polar opposite.
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            Old November 15th, 2018 (8:18 AM). Edited November 15th, 2018 by ShinyUmbreon189.
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              Honestly I have nothing more to say to you at this point. That post was full of total misunderstandings of my points (or just outright ignoring them) and a healthy dose of outright falsities. You need to actually learn about politics and political theory before talking like you know everything. You've just decided for yourself that you're right and you know everything and... well the reality is the polar opposite.
              Resorting to closed minded tactics.. How hypocritical..

              Politics is just a corrupt system... The original idea, isn't what politics is now and I'm not gonna go into detail.. It's been twisted and corrupted throughout history. You ignore how politics creates a black and white debate.. Then again.. People just need something to believe in.. This party holds this ideology and thinks this is how things should work. When in the end, all they do is bicker back and forth at eachother.. No wonder the people are so divided..

              Also, before you say I should learn political theory... You need to learn no political system truly works.. They're all flawed... History even proved this... The people either adapt, or reset.. It's how it works. To say politics doesn't divide... It does the opposite..
              Why should two political sides have the privilege of getting elected since election became a thing? Care to explain why we've never had a non left or right politician? Cause we got wealthy people funding them with similar ideologies..
              Politics is just wealthy elites with different mindsets and operations of how they want to run things. I mean... They both spend money we don't have, while they continue to ignore the issues at hand. People don't get what they need.. Unless you know, they spend money. I could bring up so many things we're FORCED to do and tell you why it's morally wrong for them to do so to us. These people are psyducking evil dude.
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              Old November 15th, 2018 (12:02 PM).
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                Politicians are just puppets.
                Indeed, global elite bankers own them. Always remember that the one who controls the money, makes the rules.

                This pic describes very well the politics in U.S.
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                Old November 15th, 2018 (12:43 PM).
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                For someone who claims to have read the entirety of my post (not to mention who acts like they're the smartest guy in the world) you're still totally missing the point of everything I said. I'm going to try one more time to break this down for you.

                1. I am not disputing the fact that there is a lot of corruption in US politics. Please show me where I denied corruption.

                2. I have never said politics doesn't divide. Never. What I said was that the goal of politics isn't to divide. Neither major party wants a divided populace because a divided populace means there's going to be discussion and debate and those things lead to scrutiny and a risk of losing power. The divide, the one I have never said doesn't exist, occurs because both sides are trying to unify as many people as they can under their banner and not the banner of the opposition. When you have two (or more) sides both trying to collect everyone under their banner, you get a divide. It's not because politicians are actively seeking to create conflict, that makes their jobs harder.

                3. A divide is good. A divide, as I just said, means discussion and debate. Discussion and debate and opposition means there is scrutiny. Scrutiny is good. You think your government is corrupt now (it is), without a divide there is no scrutiny and that means even more corruption. No political divide means a single party state. No divide = fascism. You need a divide for democracy to function and democracy naturally creates a divide.

                4. Yes, the divide has widened too far in the US because you have reached a point where it's all about beating the other side instead of trying to do the best possible for the country. This doesn't change the fact a divide needs to exist.

                5. What it actually means is that people need to get their fingers out of their asses and start voting for the people who'll make the right decisions, or at least decisions that aren't the absolute worst, because that's the only way you're going to get corrupt, obstructionist mukheads out of power. To weed out the bad people you need proper political discourse. Which both creates and necessitates a divide.

                6. Not participating in that discussion and pretending a political divide is bad is exactly how you end up with corrupt politicians pandering to corporate interests remaining in power. The odds are skewed in the favour of the rich but the rich are a minority. They rely on snagging the votes of the easily manipulated and arrogant people like you who refuse to get involved because they think it's beneath them not fighting back. If more people actually educated themselves and if more people actually got involved in political discussion and actually put their votes and their voice to good use, the wealthy and the corrupt would gradually lose power.

                7. There's a lot of perfectly valid information on the internet and by checking multiple sources it's not that difficult to weed out the outright bullmuk. Calling me out for making good use of the best source of information to ever exist is not only just plain wrong but is good evidence you aren't as well informed as you think you are. Also... did you seriously just use "millennial" as an insult? Do you know when you were born?

                8. I never claimed that any political system is perfect. You keep putting words in my mouth because you don't understand what I'm saying. It's not covering up for your failings it is only extenuating them. democracy has flaws, but it's the best system we have by miles, and you know what, to work properly it needs a divide. Yes it has flaws but it's a system designed to be repairable. You know how you fix the problems? You have to actively work to do so instead of sitting around doing nothing and being conceited about it. No, you'll never fix every problem. That's never going to happen, but you can sure as hell fix some of them.

                9. I never once said that there are no bad politicians. There's plenty of greedy, spineless, manipulative assholes using their position to held them and their own at the expense of the majority. But it's absolutely ludicrous to assume that the government as an institution is inherently evil or that all politicians participating in the system are corrupt and "evil". That kind of mentality is childish and preposterous.

                10. You actually have had several centrist presidents but they always get labelled as being "too left" or "too right" by the opposition because literally nobody sits dead centre on the political spectrum. So yes, you need to actually research politics. I don't disagree that the major parties have too much power compared to smaller ones but that's an entirely different issue and one I have literally never disputed. That's just you, again, putting words in my mouth because you have no idea what I'm talking about.

                You could bring up plenty of things as you say, I'm sure. The problem is that much like everything else you've said in this discussion they'll either not disprove my points at all or just be totally wrong or otherwise they'll just be totally irrelevant to the discussion we're having.

                I repeat, you desperately need to educate yourself politically.
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                Old November 16th, 2018 (11:04 AM).
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                Mana Mana is offline
                 
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                Oh Gimme, you’re fighting a losing battle here. ><
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                Old November 16th, 2018 (12:16 PM).
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                Oh Gimme, you’re fighting a losing battle here. ><
                There's a big difference between a losing battle and a battle the other guy refuses to acknowledge he's lost.
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                Old November 16th, 2018 (1:46 PM). Edited November 16th, 2018 by ShinyUmbreon189.
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                  There's a big difference between a losing battle and a battle the other guy refuses to acknowledge he's lost.
                  You're the one lost.. Wouldn't believe if the evidence was right in your face.. It's so obvious how politics works yet you're blind as a bat.

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                  Old December 13th, 2018 (11:30 AM). Edited December 13th, 2018 by twocows.
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                  yes. because your party sets out to destroy lives and if left unchecked you nearly always resort to some kind of societal cleansing of the poor.
                  EDIT: apparently there's some funky stuff going on in the forum and it's possible I may have already responded to this a long time ago or something? IDK. This post was pretty stream of consciousness honestly.

                  I don't have a party. The closest thing I have to a party is the Libertarian Party, but I disagree with them on a number of issues as

                  It sounds like you're just hurling insults because you're upset about the Republicans, which doesn't really have any place in any kind of debate forum. It would be incredibly easy for me to just turn that on its head, because I know for a fact there are people on the left who would love to resort to some kind of societal cleansing of some combination of the white, male, or rich, but that would be an unfair generalization of the same sort you're making; most people aren't extremists and it's not fair to act like they are. Most people, of any political persuasion, want to make the world a better place, even if they have different views on what that might look like. Their political and philosophical beliefs generally come from a desire to do good. The purpose of a debate, then, isn't to make snarky remarks about people you don't like, it's for people to understand the problem better and to understand each other better.

                  Any kind of policy decision that requires force to enforce is going to hurt someone in some way. You support the policies you do because of who you empathize with and who you don't empathize with. Let's take abortion as an example. Pro-lifers empathize with unborn children who they see as innocents being killed and don't empathize with mothers who they see as having gotten themselves into a bad situation of their own volition. Pro-choicers empathize with mothers who they see as stuck in a bad, potentially life-ruining situation as a result of a mistake in judgment and don't empathize with unborn children who they see as not fully human yet. People support one side or the other because of who they care about more. The truth of the matter is that all of these perceptions are true: unborn children are innocent, they are being killed, but they also still lack most of the important distinguishing qualities of humanity. The mothers who are looking to abort are often just people who made a bad decision at some point in their life and it does seem really unfair that they should have to suffer with it the rest of their lives, but that's also the harsh reality of life: a two-second lapse in judgment can last with you the rest of your life and part of being an adult is living with the consequences.

                  Neither position is any more or less "correct" than the other, both are the logical conclusion of a fundamental difference of opinion. The reality of it is that we all have thousands of these disagreements and that many of these cannot be reconciled. What we can gain, through debate, is an understanding of why people feel the way they do and this can sometimes lead to compromises or solutions that satisfy both parties. Even when that fails, at the very least, it gives each side an understanding of the very human and very morally reasonable values that went into the position. Pro-choice people aren't cackling baby-murderers, they're people who care about the welfare of people in bad situations and want to see a better life for them. Pro-life people aren't unforgiving bastards, they're people who think that a child shouldn't have to die because the mother made a bad decision.

                  This understanding serves several purposes. First, it brings to light potential compromises that can be made: what about situations where the mother isn't responsible? What about situations where the child is likely to die before or shortly after birth or where carrying the pregnancy to term could endanger the life of the mother? Further, this understanding should serve to humanize both sides: both positions are a result of people trying to speak out for some group of people they see as being severely wronged; both positions are a result of people trying to do good and make the world a better place. And yet, these positions are largely irreconcilable. It is entirely possible for two morally upright people to come to two completely logical and yet contrasting conclusions about the same problem. Disagreements don't always arise because one side is good and one side is evil or because one side is smart and the other side is dumb.

                  What I'm getting at with all this is that the sense I'm getting from you is that you see Republicans as evil cackling villains who spite the poor while twirling their mustaches and smoking cigars lit with burning hundred dollar bills. This view is extremely dehumanizing, it leads to the false assumption that Republicans are generally acting in bad faith, and it brings us further from an understanding of the truth, of places of potential compromise, and drives a wedge between people who should be working together to try and make the world better. I think it's worth pointing out that a very large part of the Republican base is itself impoverished and that a large part of the leadership of both parties is very, very rich. Now as to whether the policies espoused by each party are better or worse for the poor, those are things that can be argued on an individual basis; I have my own opinions and I'd be happy to share them separately if you actually want to discuss it. But I don't think comments like the ones you made are helpful in any manner and really only serve to drive people apart and foster ignorance.
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