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Are we evolving(in a fast rate)?

The Scientist

PKMN Scientist/Mathemagician
721
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Although speciation can fall into either category, more often than not, it is above the micro evolution level. That just seems like too much instances for all of them to be just micro evolutionary.
*click*

Would you say that the induced hybrids Idiomorph cited count as examples of macroevolution?

None of them were observed in nature: they were all in a laboratory settting, and the crossing of the different species was done by humans. While the hybrids were not able to breed with the parents' species, the fact that a hybrid was made undermines the "natural genetic change" clause.

tl;dr: do human-induced genetic changes still count as speciation/macroevolution?
 
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Luck

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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  • Seen May 20, 2023
Would you say that the induced hybrids Idiomorph cited count as examples of macroevolution?

None of them were observed in nature: they were all in a laboratory settting, and they crossing of the different species was done by humans. While the hybrids were not able to breed with the parents' species, the fact that a hybrid was made undermines the "natural genetic change" clause.

tl;dr: do human-induced genetic changes still count as speciation/macroevolution?

The fact that they were observed and taken in labs doesn't change that it happened. Animals speciate whether or not humans have a role in it, unless you would consider chickens having [deactivated]genes for making teeth as something that could only be possible through human intervention. I think you know as well as I do that evolution can only build up from what it has already. And the definition for speciation never mentions anything about it being taken in labs or otherwise, so the default position [for me] is to believe(which is a word I don't like to use, but I'll use for a lack of a better one) that it can happen both through natural selection and artificial selection.

Although we haven't seen speciation through natural causes(since it takes much more time), the assertion is that animals like chickens weren't created with useless genes*cough* dinosaur genes*cough* and vestigial body parts(like the vermiform appendix in most humans today.) Or maybe the ostrich wings for a better example.

Edit: Lol, you used incorrect grammar.
To be honest, I didn't check through the whole list, but I'll tell you if I saw one instance where it was actually taken in a natural setting.
 

twocows

The not-so-black cat of ill omen
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The way I see it, we're devolving. I try not to judge people as better or worse than anyone else, but the sorts of people who are most likely to breed these days are the kind of people who would set the human race back by doing so. Musicians and actors who haven't done a hard day's labor ("work" would be deceiving here; labor is more accurate) in their entire life get their choice of the litter while brilliant and/or hard-working people end up dying alone. Not only is that screwed up, it's slowly eliminating intelligence and determination from our genetics. Eventually, we'll end up a breed of apathetic fools who feel they deserve to have everything handed to them. This is already happening to a degree today. Of course, evolution is a slow process, and it tends to balance itself out. The more apathetic fools we have, the more those with intelligence and determination will be able to shine through.

This is all assuming we don't blow ourselves to hell first.
 

Ageless Irony

MANIC SPAMMER
704
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16
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The way I see it, we're devolving. I try not to judge people as better or worse than anyone else, but the sorts of people who are most likely to breed these days are the kind of people who would set the human race back by doing so. Musicians and actors who haven't done a hard day's labor ("work" would be deceiving here; labor is more accurate) in their entire life get their choice of the litter while brilliant and/or hard-working people end up dying alone. Not only is that screwed up, it's slowly eliminating intelligence and determination from our genetics. Eventually, we'll end up a breed of apathetic fools who feel they deserve to have everything handed to them. This is already happening to a degree today. Of course, evolution is a slow process, and it tends to balance itself out. The more apathetic fools we have, the more those with intelligence and determination will be able to shine through.

This is all assuming we don't blow ourselves to hell first.

...Someones a bit pessimistic...

And that is not going to be the downfall of the human race, I'm sorry, but your righteous post isn't as applicable as you probably wanted it to be.

GG tho brah.


Wait so are we evolving into rocks or what...?
 

twocows

The not-so-black cat of ill omen
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...Someones a bit realistic...
Fixed.

And that is not going to be the downfall of the human race, I'm sorry, but your righteous post isn't as applicable as you probably wanted it to be.
All those fancy words. I have a feeling you don't understand what they mean. If you had read the entire post, I included that evolution balances things out. When we get too many fools, they start dying off and the non-fools take their place. As for it not being "applicable," I'm almost certain that word doesn't mean what you think it means. Applicable to what? Reality? Because realism tends to apply to reality pretty much by definition.

GG tho brah.
Oh, now I see. Cool troll.

Wait so are we evolving into rocks or what...?
Lolwut.
 

Ageless Irony

MANIC SPAMMER
704
Posts
16
Years
Fixed.

All those fancy words. I have a feeling you don't understand what they mean. If you had read the entire post, I included that evolution balances things out. When we get too many fools, they start dying off and the non-fools take their place. As for it not being "applicable," I'm almost certain that word doesn't mean what you think it means. Applicable to what? Reality? Because realism tends to apply to reality pretty much by definition.

Oh, now I see. Cool troll.

Lolwut.

That isn't realistic at all, bro. As long as someone is a healthy human being, they pass down the same traits that their bloodline has always had, it's not like two people who work on a farm and are in turn, very fit, give birth to children who are automatically vert fit. That's just not how it works. That kind of stuff isn't predetermined by genes. The stuff that is is all health and personality related, which, I'm sorry to break it to you, has nothing to do with their lifestyle. We're not going to suddenly devolve into stupid people, as long as people want to learn, which I'm sure plenty of the morons' children will do. And become scientists, and discover if we are evolving (in a fast rate) [Plus if we all evolve into stupid people we can't invent things to make life easier so we can be lazier]

I'm not a troll. I'm a human rogue on thrall. look me up, my guild is on TOC 25 hardmodes :D
 

twocows

The not-so-black cat of ill omen
4,307
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That isn't realistic at all, bro. As long as someone is a healthy human being, they pass down the same traits that their bloodline has always had, it's not like two people who work on a farm and are in turn, very fit, give birth to children who are automatically vert fit. That's just not how it works. That kind of stuff isn't predetermined by genes. The stuff that is is all health and personality related, which, I'm sorry to break it to you, has nothing to do with their lifestyle. We're not going to suddenly devolve into stupid people, as long as people want to learn, which I'm sure plenty of the morons' children will do. And become scientists, and discover if we are evolving (in a fast rate) [Plus if we all evolve into stupid people we can't invent things to make life easier so we can be lazier]

I'm not a troll. I'm a human rogue on thrall. look me up, my guild is on TOC 25 hardmodes :D
Most things are determined by a combination of genetics and environment. Sure, those aforementioned actors probably didn't have the best parents, but you can't become that big of a fool without there being some underlying genetic faults. I hate to break it to you, but some people are just born stupid or born lazy. That's not to say they can't be brought up to overcome such traits, but that is the default position that they tend to take. Personality, which you mentioned, is one of those things determined by both genetics and environment. However, the basic position I laid out is still true. When two idiots breed, the result is an idiot. When a lot of idiots breed, the result is a lot of idiots.
 

Ageless Irony

MANIC SPAMMER
704
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16
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Most things are determined by a combination of genetics and environment. Sure, those aforementioned actors probably didn't have the best parents, but you can't become that big of a fool without there being some underlying genetic faults. I hate to break it to you, but some people are just born stupid or born lazy. That's not to say they can't be brought up to overcome such traits, but that is the default position that they tend to take. Personality, which you mentioned, is one of those things determined by both genetics and environment. However, the basic position I laid out is still true. When two idiots breed, the result is an idiot. When a lot of idiots breed, the result is a lot of idiots.

I guess I'll level with you somewhat and say it's all about how you're raised, really.
 

Idiomorph

Pokémon Geneticist
46
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14
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Firstly that page discusses speciation, which can fall under macro- or microevolution. Regardless, most of the examples discuss human-induced hybrids and their genetic differences/inability to breed with the parents. Some interesting exceptions to this include the Drosophila melanogaster experiment, where a light being on or off during mating affected the stability of... a hybrid.

The plant examples are all about hybridisation mainly because it has been shown to be a major force of change throughout that kingdom's evolutionary history. Plants are much more tolerant of large-scale genomic changes than other organisms, but said changes frequently lead to mating incompatibility with the parent strain due to meiotic disjunctions-- i.e speciation.

As for the other examples, of course they are all going to discuss hybrids-- the criteria for species separation according to the biological species concept is the inability to generate fertile hybrid offspring from a cross.

I'll have to go through more of their books to decide for myself, but again, speciation can apply to microevolution (I think Darwin referred to the finch beaks as speciation) or macroevolution.

I'm going by talkorigins' definitions, which appear to represent the accepted modern usages of the terms in scientific discourse:

"Microevolution is defined as the change of allele frequencies (that is, genetic variation due to processes such as selection, mutation, genetic drift, or even migration) within a population."

"Macroevolution is defined as evolutionary change at the species level or higher, that is, the formation of new species, new genera, and so forth."

I think the fact that we're disagreeing about the definitions of micro- and macro- evolution here is really pretty representative of the false dichotomy between the two. Evolution is for the most part a contiguous process and not so easily subdivided-- 'macroevolution' is essentially just 'microevolution' writ large. The distinction is there primarily to aid human thought. The situation with taxonomic classification is much the same once you move away from the hard rule of the BSC-- and even that has issues, as illustrated by situations where gene flow occurs between 'species' despite a lack of any direct mating (i.e through an intermediate).

I spent a fair bit of time in a phylogenetics lab last year, and I can assure you that our tidy classifications really start to break down when you look at the sequence level. We ran into a number of problems with incomplete lineage sorting-- basically some parts of species A's genome were more closely related to species B than C, while others were closer to C than B. It's a complete nightmare if you want everything to fit into neat little divergence trees.

I agree. It seems that the amount of intelligent people keeps going down. Soon the world will be like the movie Idiocracy with Luke Wilson.

The way I see it, we're devolving. I try not to judge people as better or worse than anyone else, but the sorts of people who are most likely to breed these days are the kind of people who would set the human race back by doing so. Musicians and actors who haven't done a hard day's labor ("work" would be deceiving here; labor is more accurate) in their entire life get their choice of the litter while brilliant and/or hard-working people end up dying alone. Not only is that screwed up, it's slowly eliminating intelligence and determination from our genetics. Eventually, we'll end up a breed of apathetic fools who feel they deserve to have everything handed to them. This is already happening to a degree today. Of course, evolution is a slow process, and it tends to balance itself out. The more apathetic fools we have, the more those with intelligence and determination will be able to shine through..

Sorry guys, but this is a really common and very wrong misconception. Average IQ (that is, the value to which IQ scores are normalised each year) tends to increase every generation. See the Flynn effect. Whether or not the cause of this phenomenon is biological remains debatable, but you can't just make blanket statements about the population getting less intelligent.

I'm not sure why people get this impression of decreasing intelligence. I suspect the idiots are just getting a lot louder-- courtesy of wealthy economies, widespread communications technology and increasing literacy rates. There's also been the rise of hardcore religious fundamentalism in the US (note however that it has been coupled with decreasing numbers of religious people in general).

Another misconception I should address here is the idea of 'devolving'. Evolution is not teleocentric-- it is far from linear, and does not progress 'up' or 'down' or 'towards' something. Natural selection acts to generate organisms which are good at reproducing in the environment they find themselves in, and nothing else. If they happen to be better-adapted to a greater range of environments in general, or are what we subjectively see as 'better', it is purely an accessory effect.
 
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♣Gawain♣

Onward to Music!!!
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The advent of technology really affects our lives doesn't it? 15 yeas ago, when computer games are not so addictive as today, children usually do other things much more worthwhile. Like playing outside, reading a good book, etc. Now we see children(not to mention teenagers), sitting in front of the computer/TV/etc. . Not just sitting, but making it as if they can't live without it. The more a child watches TV, the more his/her brain became degenerate. Even educational TV won't help. Yes, we're devolving into couch potatoes, but not all.

Although they'll have their own "modern" intelligence, which means they can easily make a "battle strategy" in his game, while he'll have some difficulty in solving a simple math equation.
Sorry guys, but this is a really common and very wrong misconception. Average IQ (that is, the value to which IQ scores are normalised each year) tends to increase every generation. See the Flynn effect. Whether or not the cause of this phenomenon is biological remains debatable, but you can't just make blanket statements about the population getting less intelligent.

I'm not sure why people get this impression of decreasing intelligence. I suspect the idiots are just getting a lot louder-- courtesy of wealthy economies, widespread communications technology and increasing literacy rates. There's also been the rise of hardcore religious fundamentalism in the US (note however that it has been coupled with decreasing numbers of religious people in general).

Another misconception I should address here is the idea of 'devolving'. Evolution is not teleocentric-- it is far from linear, and does not progress 'up' or 'down' or 'towards' something. Natural selection acts to generate organisms which are good at reproducing in the environment they find themselves in, and nothing else. If they happen to be better-adapted to a greater range of environments in general, or are what we subjectively see as 'better', it is purely an accessory effect.

IQ increases every year because people usually are more "intelligent" or shall we say crafty in handling out IQ tests. And IQ's don't mark a human's true intelligence. Sorry, that's my own idea. Don't argue. Pls

"Microevolution is defined as the change of allele frequencies (that is, genetic variation due to processes such as selection, mutation, genetic drift, or even migration) within a population."

"Macroevolution is defined as evolutionary change at the species level or higher, that is, the formation of new species, new genera, and so forth."

Microevo example: Hom0 sapiens----> Africans
-----> Caucasians
------> Polynesians(and much more races)

Right?

Macro evolution example: Australopithecus africanus---->blah(too long)---->blah---->*Missing Link or what*----> Hom0 sapiens

Right.
 
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Ageless Irony

MANIC SPAMMER
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umnm they kinda do in a way but you have a point
I'm saying lots of little things are changing basically =P but then again I'm not smart
*slowly walks away* I'll stop talking now

Those are just tiny, tiny cultural changes if anything. Definatley not any form of physical evolution.
*patpat* It's okay.
 

twocows

The not-so-black cat of ill omen
4,307
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Sorry guys, but this is a really common and very wrong misconception. Average IQ (that is, the value to which IQ scores are normalised each year) tends to increase every generation. See the Flynn effect. Whether or not the cause of this phenomenon is biological remains debatable, but you can't just make blanket statements about the population getting less intelligent.

I'm not sure why people get this impression of decreasing intelligence. I suspect the idiots are just getting a lot louder-- courtesy of wealthy economies, widespread communications technology and increasing literacy rates. There's also been the rise of hardcore religious fundamentalism in the US (note however that it has been coupled with decreasing numbers of religious people in general).

Another misconception I should address here is the idea of 'devolving'. Evolution is not teleocentric-- it is far from linear, and does not progress 'up' or 'down' or 'towards' something. Natural selection acts to generate organisms which are good at reproducing in the environment they find themselves in, and nothing else. If they happen to be better-adapted to a greater range of environments in general, or are what we subjectively see as 'better', it is purely an accessory effect.
I didn't say it was linear. In the very post you quoted, I mentioned that it balances itself out, which is more like sinusoidal.

As for the Flynn Effect, I suspect there is a fair amount of lying with statistics involved. I'm no professional, but I can think of a number of things that make me doubt it. Most importantly, we have IQ being used as a measure of intelligence. Higher IQ scores don't mean people are getting smarter, they mean people are getting better at IQ tests. I still maintain that we're getting stupider overall, and that genetics plays an important role in this.

And as you said, natural selection does encourage adaptation. Our current society promotes stupidity and laziness (and, in fact, idolizes those who have both), and those people tend to breed more and pass those traits along. It seems pretty simple to me.
 

Shem

Bored...
692
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Lol, of course humans will one day evolve. We can have known the Whales and Dolphins evolved from mammals, like us. Whats to say that the human race will not evolve into Ocean Dwellers? We could even be evolving now to adapt to what society is doing to our Atmosphere and Ozone.


We won't have to adapt because we will come up with new technology so that most people would survive instead of just those fit for the new conditions surviving.
 

Idiomorph

Pokémon Geneticist
46
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Most importantly, we have IQ being used as a measure of intelligence. Higher IQ scores don't mean people are getting smarter, they mean people are getting better at IQ tests

I'll readily admit that IQ isn't exactly an ideal representation of intelligence, but it is one of the best we have. What alternative quantitative system are you proposing? The same effect is observed with other means of measurement-- and not just from crappy governmental surveys or whatever, these are real papers.

I still maintain that we're getting stupider overall, and that genetics plays an important role in this.

You have not provided evidence for either claim. Given the timescales involved and the speed of human cultural evolution it is very unlikely that genetics plays a significant role in these changes, whether they be positive or negative.

I didn't say it was linear. In the very post you quoted, I mentioned that it balances itself out, which is more like sinusoidal.

Sorry-- by 'linear' I meant 'one-dimensional'. 'Devolving' is a ridiculous term because there is no objective measurement by which something can be said to be 'more' or 'less' evolved.

Our current society promotes stupidity and laziness (and, in fact, idolizes those who have both), and those people tend to breed more and pass those traits along. It seems pretty simple to me

There is an inverse correlation between IQ and fertility, but the effects of upbringing and culture on measurements of intelligence are so massive that it isn't at all clear whether there is any sort of causation involved, let alone a genetic basis. It is more likely that both have independent correlations with some other explanatory variable, such as wealth-- see the demographic-economic paradox.
 
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I'm going to add something here.

Us as humans are much too developed to develop / evolve any further. Evolution comes through natural selection and also pressure in the environment. Large amounts of a given species die off before they start adapting and evolving, humans are at a stage where we shape the environment to suit us. We're putting pressure on the environment, but we feel no pressure (except stress which isnt that big imo). An excellent example of this are insecticides and how we have to make them stronger every few years after insects get used to them.

When we evolve, one main thing that evolves with us is our brain, and the human brain is already at the epitome of development. The only thing that can occur now, is an increase in the thinking power / amount of brain we use as humans only use 2% of their brainpower.

IQ is not something that is human made and is flawed. Apart from the genes that you gain through natural selection (your parents), you are on your own. IQ plays a very little part. You will find that children that have a very educated, diverse life up until they are approximately 5-6 years old, will generally be smarter as this is the "development" phase of the brain. Why do you think exchange students from asia are so smart? They start school when they're 3.

And talk about people not having beards anymore due to evolution.... :/ Its actually due to changes in trends. Its like asking why blazers / suits arent compulsory in high school, or uniform in america. Its due to changing trends.

Evolution in humans.... Will not happen.

The spine, the brain, the shape of the jaw! It is all linked to our evolution. We have evolved way too much. In the middle ages, the human brain had a capacity of 1500 CCs, this has been developed this to 1700 CCs. It is estimated that this is the maximum thinking capacity we are able to contain. Sadly, there is no place for evolution.

@ twocows.

We are not getting dumber, its just that education is given less and less importance. Look at my asian countries reference.
 
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