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  #51    
Old 4 Weeks Ago (4:07 AM).
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re: 55% statistic

I think that it would be better to get the people not using contraception/not having sex responsibly to use contraception/have sex responsibly instead of giving cruel and unusual punishment to the people that do use contraception/have sex responsibly, would it not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gimmepie View Post
Pro-tip: If he's being a dick about protection, don't have sex with him.
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  #52    
Old 4 Weeks Ago (4:11 AM).
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    Abortion was only just legalised in my state literally like 48 hours ago.

    So my point of view. This is TMI but explains why this issue is so important to me.

    Even though I am in a happy living-together (for over 3 years) relationship with my boyfriend and I am on the pill (and my partner never you know what's).

    ... I very rarely have sex because I am afraid of getting pregnant. I'm not ready to cut off the option that I will never have kids so I just very rarely have sex. Ovulating? Nope. Off pill week? Nope. Take pill more than a few hours late? No sex for at least two weeks. New pack starting? No sex at all for a week and a half.

    You know why? Because abortion was illegal. I was so muk scared of having to go to the doctors and plead and say I was mentally ill (anxiety but still... at minimum you need to have more than anxiety to get out of it here), that I'd be a terrible mother... I would literally have to either BEG the doctors here or pay a minimum of $500 (when money isn't great currently) just for a flight to Melbourne to get an abortion. Don't forget how psyducking scary it would be to explain why I'm taking a random one day trip to Melbourne.

    The fact that a 12 year old here had to get government approval to get an abortion because it wasn't legal... like that's psyducked. There's no other word for it. We're in a psyducking society that literally only 72 hours ago forced a 12 year old to BEG the psyducking government to get an abortion.

    Sorry I'm swearing a lot but this issue is one I'm very passionate about... like I mean if I got pregnant and couldn't get an abortion at all I probably would consider ending my life. That's coming from someone who has never been suicidal AT ALL, loves life, literally would be the last person in the entire universe -- but I just couldn't psyducking do it. A foreign being in my body that controls it for 9 months and then potentially controls my life for 18 years... no. That might change someday but being 30 in a few years... that's sure as psyduck my opinion.

    How the psyduck can anyone not support everyone being given the right to have an abortion when people like me would literally consider ending it if they were forced to carry a child even if they're the safest person ever? Like how can people sleep at night and still being pro-life knowing that some people that are not able to abort could literally be on the verge of killing themselves because they're forced into this choice with no other safe alternative? It just boggles my mind. Allowing EVERYONE to make the choice for their body is so damn right. Like, would you rather a woman kill herself because she can't abort safely or would you rather let her abort clusters of cells and let her continue HER life?

    It's not necessarily having to raise the kid. It's the fact that for nine months you are given a reminder that you either psyducked up or that nobody was willing to let you fix a VERY unlucky mistake. That for every single kick in the womb... you cry. Every single ultra sound KILLS you internally. Yeah, you can say there are some exceptions that need to be aborted but it's not that. It's that every single psyducking case is so unique. Every woman should be able to make a choice over their body. They have to give up 9 months of their lives carrying it. Nine months where every single moment of the day is a constant reminder of either the shame, fear, worry... like, no. Giving everyone the right to choose what happens to their bodies completely judgement free. Like is the only option for pro-lifers just for the rest of us to never have sex? Because no contraception is fully effective and even if we do everything right and only have sex literally three times a month... there still is that slight chance. We should be able to be given the rights to decide WHAT happens from there out. There shouldn't just be EXCEPTIONS ... like everyone should be given the right to decide what happens to them.

    Pro lifers really don't get what it's like to be in the shoes of those who are pregnant and having to go ahead with abortion because having to carry the baby for nine months will literally psyduck their brain up to the extent that they may never recover from. Just why the psyduck not allow it for everyone? You don't know everyone's case and you can't brand everyone with the same brush. Everyone has a different reason for needing an abortion. Trying to protect the not yet formed unborn babies yet completely disregarding a living human being who has lived for a minimum of 12 years (although hopefully at least 18 in most cases) is so wrong.

    If I got pregnant say three weeks ago I would have had to get up the courage... go to the doctor and PLEAD my case. I would literally have to be in tears to show WHY I absolutely needed to abort it. I would have to beg and plead and hope that the doctor is willing to take mercy on me and let me abort. You know how psyducking scary that would be for so many people vs actually going to a safe no judgement abortion clinic and being able to go about your business? Can a pro lifer truly say that yes it's great that the law (a few days ago, but for some places it's still illegal) means I have to beg a doctor to take pity on me (and convince them that I would be a mentally deranged mother basically) to let me abort instead of being able to do it so much more dignifyingly?

    Like pro-lifers: Newsfact! People are still going to abort whether you like it or not. By not allowing people to access abortion safely in a judgement free zone (and potentially face criminal prosecution) you're just making it harder on the people that are already alive. Like yeah, campaign all you want outside of abortion clinics and try to convince people not to go ahead but by supporting having a law that forces you to beg and plead your case... like that's so psyducking upsetting that you can continue on living life happily when people are mentally struggling.

    For as long as I live, and for as long as I am given the option to abort - I will fight against those who don't support abortion. A lot of pent up anger from reading all the comments all over social media these last few days. Note: I haven't had an abortion but I have researched it in the off chance that I did require one and these are 100% my feelings based on if I did have to have an abortion three weeks ago (due to the law only JUST changing here).

    I'm still going to be careful, psyduck yes. But I know at least ONE (psyducking TERRIFYING) weight is taken off my shoulders if I did need one. There's a lot of people out there like me. Don't brand everyone with the same brush and assume only extreme cases matter. Every woman is absolutely worth being able to make the right choice for them without judgment and anyone that doesn't feel that way perhaps needs to get a better grip on what empathy is.
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      #53    
    Old 4 Weeks Ago (5:05 AM).
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by gimmepie View Post
    and I'll always argue against that practice too, as do you.
    Are you going to stop just because they don't?
    Arguing is all well and good, and of course I won't stop, but there are real world consequences in the meantime. Even though I argue for the abolition of British parliament I still vote Labour because they are going to do the least harm to people who are in a worse position than me.

    I can't tell if you replied to my comment about embryos not having sentience until roughly 20 weeks in relation to farm animals outright having sentience but I think it's an important point to consider.

    What about people who have contraception fail? They weren't irresponsible, they were unlucky. I've had condoms split. Luckily most of the girls were on the pill. A couple weren't so we took the morning after pill. My sister got unlucky on a drunk night out, clinics and doctors are closed on a sunday. Thankfully I managed to find an over the counter seller of Plan B who didnt require a consultation for it but if we hadnt she would have had to go an extra day, which halfs plan B's real term effectiveness.

    It's not a throwaway thing where people bone, then 8 months later decide theyre gonna kill the kid. It's a semi common failure of medication or a slip of mind that leads to either Plan B or a 4-8 week termination.
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      #54    
    Old 4 Weeks Ago (5:36 AM).
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Hands View Post
    Arguing is all well and good, and of course I won't stop, but there are real world consequences in the meantime. Even though I argue for the abolition of British parliament I still vote Labour because they are going to do the least harm to people who are in a worse position than me.

    I can't tell if you replied to my comment about embryos not having sentience until roughly 20 weeks in relation to farm animals outright having sentience but I think it's an important point to consider.
    I don't even agree with stepping on ants. They also have no sentience.

    Quote:
    What about people who have contraception fail? They weren't irresponsible, they were unlucky. I've had condoms split. Luckily most of the girls were on the pill. A couple weren't so we took the morning after pill. My sister got unlucky on a drunk night out, clinics and doctors are closed on a sunday. Thankfully I managed to find an over the counter seller of Plan B who didnt require a consultation for it but if we hadnt she would have had to go an extra day, which halfs plan B's real term effectiveness.
    I believe I already said that I could potentially be swayed as far as that goes until such time as the system is handled properly. I won't say it's a practice I agree with, I'll argue against it, but I won't hold it against people either.

    Quote:
    It's not a throwaway thing where people bone, then 8 months later decide theyre gonna kill the kid. It's a semi common failure of medication or a slip of mind that leads to either Plan B or a 4-8 week termination.
    Apparently for 55% of people it is.
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      #55    
    Old 4 Weeks Ago (6:01 AM).
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by gimmepie View Post
    Apparently for 55% of people it is.
    https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/may/24/abortion-statistics-england-wales

    https://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/data_stats/abortion.htm

    1.3% of US abortions happen at the point of sentience.

    Your own article doesn't cover every patient globally, it's from patients who opted to fill out a survey in America. It's not representative of overall figures. Your source also states the author of the analysis as saying

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Rachel Jones
    “Contraceptive methods are highly effective at preventing unintended pregnancies, but no method—and no user—is perfect, Abortion patients should have access to the full range of contraceptive counseling and services to support them in preventing future unintended pregnancies.”
    Crucially, no method is 100%. Of her numbers, 13% had been on the pill (the usually cited most effective non permanent contraceptive)

    I can't find anything from the Guttmacher analysis that mentions pulling out. It says 13% were using the pill and 24% were using condoms. The others could have botched vasectomies, be on the implant or the coil, be on the shot or have their ovaries tied. Some may even be using the femidom still. Condoms and Pills are cited because they are both the most common contraceptives on the market and are also the biggest two cited fail rates in the study.

    That means that the 49% you see as irresponsible includes rape victims, domestic abuse victims who have been pushed into getting the abortion by their partners and teens. It also includes people with ectopic pregnancies, risk to life, undeveloped embryos and other health concerns.

    So it's not 55% using it as contraception then just callously killing the kid when theyre a sentient baby with thought processes and actual signs of tangible life. It's 51% who's primary cause was a failure either with contraception or the application of contraception.
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      #56    
    Old 4 Weeks Ago (12:19 AM).
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    I'm actually curious as to what you guys think in the case of a transgender person, such as myself.
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      #57    
    Old 4 Weeks Ago (5:09 AM).
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Hands View Post
    Snip
    Apologies for the short reply here but I'm a mukload of pain right now so I don't feel much like researching for an essay.

    re: 1.3% - I don't recall mentioning sentience as a factor in my opinion? If I did bring it up that was foolish of me because it's really a very small part in my perspective.

    re: locality - Fair point. I'll dig up some sources from other countries later. I will say though that I doubt there's that much variation in typical western countries like the US, Canada, England, Australia etc.

    Breaking format now because I'm a rebel. I'll have to go back and check but I'm pretty sure it mentions an increase from 7% to 9% of people using the pull out method in some brackets about half way through.

    As far as the 49% goes, for the sake of fairness in this debate (as far as my stance is concerned anyway) we'd probably have to exclude rape victims from both them and the count of people who did use protection as I'm not against them having abortions if they need to. Very few pregnancies are ectopic or involve life threatening situations and being a teen isn't an excuse for being a moron and having unprotected sex when you aren't ready to be a parent. I'll have to get back to you on statistics regarding domestic violence but there is still a sizeable percentage here that were simply irresponsible.

    @Raven - I would suggest that it's probably not a very common occurrence. As far as I'm concerned though, if a transgender person voluntarily has sex then the same standards should apply to them as anyone else and vice versa. That being said, on account of he rarity I've not given it as much thought so I'll think on it some and see if my position changes any.
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      #58    
    Old 4 Weeks Ago (7:08 AM).
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      Quote:
      Originally Posted by Raven View Post
      I'm actually curious as to what you guys think in the case of a transgender person, such as myself.
      A person's biological sex isn't dictated by their gender identification so the later is irrelevant.

      Quote:
      Originally Posted by gimmepie View Post
      being a teen isn't an excuse for being a moron and having unprotected sex when you aren't ready to be a parent.
      A fact so many teenagers try to ignore. A baby, abortion, or a life altering STD/STI usually brings the stubborn ones back to their senses.
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        #59    
      Old 4 Weeks Ago (12:00 AM). Edited 4 Weeks Ago by Hands.
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      Quote:
      Originally Posted by gimmepie View Post
      Apologies for the short reply here but I'm a mukload of pain right now so I don't feel much like researching for an essay.
      That's fine, I just think it's important that the facts are present in regard to this topic.

      Quote:
      re: 1.3% - I don't recall mentioning sentience as a factor in my opinion? If I did bring it up that was foolish of me because it's really a very small part in my perspective.
      I was referring to
      Quote:
      Originally Posted by gimmepie View Post
      The majority of animals aren't sentient and I think if they are treated as humanely as possible it's fine. That's a lot better than ending a human life as a matter of convenience.
      in which you seem to suggest that animals are apparently not sentient and that this is a mitigating factor in eating them.

      Quote:
      re: locality - Fair point. I'll dig up some sources from other countries later. I will say though that I doubt there's that much variation in typical western countries like the US, Canada, England, Australia etc.
      https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/570040/Updated_Abortion_Statistics_2015.pdf

      Britain doesn't ask a reason, although the forms submitted will often cite blanket categories. Most interesting is the high number of non Brits who came here for Abortions and that for repeat abortions it seems to focus around minority groups more than indigenous Brits. I assume for a bulk of these woman this is down to lesser sex education or access to contraceptives in their birth nations. The NHS will treat anyone, oftentimes even those in the country illegally, because that's part of their original mission.

      Quote:
      Breaking format now because I'm a rebel. I'll have to go back and check but I'm pretty sure it mentions an increase from 7% to 9% of people using the pull out method in some brackets about half way through.
      I have been back through the article, it is mentioned (though it isnt part of the contraceptive statistic)

      Quote:
      The share of abortion patients relying on condoms decreased between 2000 and 2014 (from 28% to 24%), and there was a small but significant increase in the share of patients who relied on withdrawal (from 7% in 2000 to 9% in 2014). Use of long-acting reversible contraceptive (LARC) methods among abortion patients increased from 0.1% in 2000 to 1% in 2014. Jones notes that as more and more U.S. women rely on these methods, a larger number of individuals will experience method failure. It is also possible that some abortion patients became pregnant shortly after they stopped using LARCs or other contraceptive methods.
      People using long term contraception increased. I know people who use the pill and pull out (many men do not outright finish in their partners even if she is on the pill) It's not indicative of anything other than that a small percentage of people reported pulling out, either with the woman on contraception or not.

      Quote:
      As far as the 49% goes, for the sake of fairness in this debate (as far as my stance is concerned anyway) we'd probably have to exclude rape victims from both them and the count of people who did use protection as I'm not against them having abortions if they need to.
      We should probably remove people who were pressured into having sex, people who were in domestic violence situations and people who were taken advantage of when inhibited as well.

      Quote:
      Very few pregnancies are ectopic or involve life threatening situations
      Quote:
      In 2015, 54% of women undergoing abortions had one or more previous pregnancies that
      resulted in a live or stillbirth, up from 47% in 2005 (See Table 3a.vii). 19% of women had a
      previous pregnancy resulting in a miscarriage or ectopic pregnancy, up from 14% in 2005.
      (Table 3a.viii)
      I mean, over half of UK Abortions in 2015 were carried out on women who had miscarried, had ectopic pregnancies or had a stillborn child or had a child already which factored into the choice. 19% had an Ectopic pregnancy or miscarried so it's pretty common where abortion is concerned.

      Quote:
      and being a teen isn't an excuse for being a moron and having unprotected sex when you aren't ready to be a parent
      so what do you say to 12 year olds who were groomed? Or 13 year olds who were pushed into it by a boy at school? They're kids. If you honestly think it's at all a good idea to either push their young bodies through pregnancy or leave a baby in their care when they're barely out of nappies themselves themselves then I don't know what to tell you.

      Quote:
      there is still a sizeable percentage here that were simply irresponsible.
      It isn't 55% though is it? It isn't even remotely close to 55%.
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